Q&A Mewtwo Philosophy - Q&A Ask Away

[Evil Iggy]

Mewtwo, Mewtwo, Mewtwo... why is he my favorite? I think its because I always have an enjoyable match when I play with him.

Melee's always an awesome game, but it's definitely true that some matches are more fun than others. I'm not talking about character matchups, or anything like that. I mean that sometimes you will laugh until it hurts from the four minutes of absolute enjoyment you get from a Mewtwo match. It's the "wombo combo", "gimpyfish combo" and the accidental Ganon up tilt (known as the "crotch explosion" around here) that actually hits that really make you love a match. Nobody ever expects the floaty, slow, short-range Mewtwo combos to stick, but when you land them, nothing feels better. I'm no pro, and the smash community in Utah isn't all that evolved, but I would definitely say that I will always take my Mewtwo to the local tournies/ 1v1 of some guy who I know will **** me with fox. I'm just constantly having fun when I play him. And, quite frankly the future isn't set... Mewtwo hasn't really "evolved" yet...

I also think it's important to advance the lower tier characters. Simply put, these characters haven't changed half as much as the higher tiers. Does anyone really know how to play a Kirby well? Have the possibilities of Link's aerials been explored (I never knew until yesterday that SH bair could be done twice without hitting the ground...)? I really would love to see more advances in the lower tiers, and that isn't going to happen unless players who love a low tier character stick with it.

 

[KAOSTAR]

hey iggy do u happen to know C!Z?

 

[ItalianStallion]

Thanks

Thanks for the compliments on my post. It's good to know that Mewtwo players are a friendly bunch.

I plan to stick true to my middle/low tier characters. I definitely have more fun when I use them. Plus it is much more likely that using lower tier characters will help them evolve like Evil Iggy said. Just recently I played and used Ness and had a match where a good 10-15 seconds I was doing some effective combos. Granted, they were kinda lucky combos in the sense that my guesses/reactions to my opponent were spot on during that time, but it was still refreshing to see a lower tier character being really effective. And perhaps where it was luck that guided my hands, some other player who loved using Ness might see potential for new ways to make him better. Although I am doubtful whether the tier lists will change too much in the future, I am hopeful that there won't be as huge of gaps between characters as there are now. Thinning the gaps between characters will equal more variety in mains and secondaries and I believe it will make the sport as a whole more competitive if the low-tier player doesn't feel like he is handicapped in some way by using his favorite.

I recently found a video to help illustrate my point about wanting my Mewtwo to have un-Mewtwo-like speed. In this video, from 0:41 to 0:43, V3ctorman shows how fast Mewtwo can be. He also demonstrates a different way to utilize speed with Mewtwo from 1:59 to 2:00.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUGyKfxcccA

@ KAOSTAR
I decided to look you up on YouTube and I saw some of your videos. I really like your style. You utilize all of Mewtwo's move-set really effectively. A good example of this is from 0:37 to 0:40 in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVSKnDAAzcw

That was slick. Perfect for classy Mewtwo.

Both of these videos show possible evolution with Mewtwo and how far the character can be taken with more experimentation with the character and the effective play styles he possesses.

@ Evil Iggy
I am now going to start using the phrase "crotch explosion" every time an up-tilt is connected while using Ganon. I might even incorporate it into my daily life.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Haha I appreciate it. My style at times can be a lil flashy while still being effective. Sometimes tho, I sacrifice some movement efficiency by using moonwalks and sometimes wavedashes unnecessarily. I think my strongest suite is my ability to link on stage combos directly into edgeguards, and thats mainly because of the excessive use of moonwalks and willingness to go off stage without hesitation. Unfortunately you dont really see much of that in those vidz I have up and they are a lil outdated. I been slackin, I promised vman months ago Id put new stuff up, and I also was suppose to make a thread which Im still planning on doing I guess prob a lil after pound.

If you ever get any vidz posted Id be more than happy to critique them for you. ^_^



Man I really miss talking about m2, like just throwin theories around and talking about MUs and stuff. and I mean amongst m2 players, not that m2 zelda garb.

 

[Evil Iggy]

Well, since this IS in fact a m2 thread, I actually DO have a question...

I was playing with a Fox yesterday who thought it was hilarious to dair>shine>uthrow>uair me to death. After putting up with this for a couple of stocks, I decided to just try some weird approaches and go with it. Long story short, I was able to repeatedly WD soft-touch utilt the fox to a little over 90%, where a bthrow to bair then killed him. Was it the Fox's bad DI with the utilts that let me get him that high, or is that a legitimate tactic against a fastfaller?

@ KAOSTAR No, can't say I know him. Does he play under any other names, maybe?

 

[DelxDoom]

i am terrible with mewtwo

tbh i would rather play young link

but i admire Taj so I like reading mewtwo boards lol, I don't go near any other melee boards D:
I mean, I will play mewtwo sometimes and he is definitely one of my worst characters, etc
haha

---I'm pretty sure he can jump out of the utilt, if he has no jump though it could work but he can mash down b, nair, etc
lack of hitstun on weak utilt sucks

 

[KAOSTAR]

C!Z is the best melee player in utah. but he lives in washington now. I just saw you were from salt lake.

the up tilts combo at low through mid percents. the situation you described was a combination of bad fox.

 

[Zone]

Bah you're forcing me to retrain with Zelda just so I don't embarrass myself koastar I'm highly likely to go to pound so we'll surely battle. I won't disappoint.

 

[AXE 09]

There's quite a few things I want to say... I'm pretty behind on this thread. This is my first time visiting since DGDTJ

Axe still wants to play aggressive and has a strong conviction for it. I want to see what he'd become if he REALLY played to win, instead of playing with his ideals, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Playing with pride is the only thing keeping everyone that isn't top 3 from not entering tournaments. It's also healthier for the game for multiple styles of play to be viable, but I still wish he'd work on efficiency and find that balance like PP.

I'm quite disappointed in doubles. I really wanted a top two at this tournament and I feel really bad for letting Axe down again. I'm just soaking up the negativity right now, and it's really not healthy.

I don't really understand your first paragraph, because I REALLY do play to win in tourney. Even though you say differently, I can't think of any times where I threw away a perfect opportunity to get a kill just because I didn't wanna kill them a certain way. Maybe you're seeing things that I'm not seeing, but if I see an opportunity, I will always try to go for it in a serious match. I might try to do a little flashy stuff on the side, but I won't purposely throw away that opportunity. Friendlies is a whole different subject, but in serious tournament matches, I always try to go for what's effective while trying to be as fast/flashy/technical as I can be (and I will only go for that technical stuff if I'm confident I can pull it off).

I also don't see why you're beating yourself up for our doubles matches. If anything, I thought it was my fault why we lost. I kept killing myself, and I feel that I wasn't giving you support like teammates should. If our losses were anyone's fault, they were mine. I'll be a better teammate next time.

I think that exploring multiple play-styles with a character will break new ground when it comes to their metagame. One of the easiest ways to do this IMO is experiment with different characters, no matter how low they are on the tier list. By doing that, every character has the opportunity to become more competitive and the character playing field will become more more even. From this we might see more players using different characters besides the standard high-tier characters. I think that it will make the Smash scene more intriguing and friendly to people who wish to join. No one wants to hear that their favorite character Link is pure crap and they have to use someone high up or else they aren't going to win. But that is what people will most likely do if they look at the cool pro videos online and never see their character being used. They will see the videos, be amazed by them, and then go play a Fox. With that we lose a potential player who might have revolutionized the Link metagame. I can relate to this myself.

I think about stuff like this all the time, and I agree 100% with you. It's so sad that no one is willing to represent most of the low tier characters, or explore any potential that they have. I have seen quite a few times where a new player joins the scene who wants to play a certain character, and all the experienced players are just like "that character is garbage. Play Fox/Sheik/Marth/etc." Players need to play whatever character they want to play or like the most, and not just "good" characters. You can make any character "good" if you really want to. I wish more people would play characters other than high tiers. There are waaaayyyyy too many high tier players, and too many people think that choosing them makes you automatically good. You can be good with whatever character you put your heart into, no matter what tier that character is in.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Bah you're forcing me to retrain with Zelda just so I don't embarrass myself kaostar I'm highly likely to go to pound so we'll surely battle. I won't disappoint.

word. ill break out the ankle weights and the jump rope.

 

[ItalianStallion]

Doubles Play

I think about stuff like this all the time, and I agree 100% with you. It's so sad that no one is willing to represent most of the low tier characters, or explore any potential that they have. I have seen quite a few times where a new player joins the scene who wants to play a certain character, and all the experienced players are just like "that character is garbage. Play Fox/Sheik/Marth/etc." Players need to play whatever character they want to play or like the most, and not just "good" characters. You can make any character "good" if you really want to. I wish more people would play characters other than high tiers. There are waaaayyyyy too many high tier players, and too many people think that choosing them makes you automatically good. You can be good with whatever character you put your heart into, no matter what tier that character is in.

Well, I admit that right now I am a little "starstruck" due to the fact that I am now conversing with one of my favorite players. So excuse the st-t-t-uttering.

On a more serious note, I also was thinking about how this comes into play for doubles. The Tier List is used to "rank" the different characters, but I don't think it is that straightforward when it comes to doubles play. Fox might be the number one character, but does that mean a team of foxes is the "best" team that can be used? I don't think so. Doubles adds many more variables that allow for lower tier characters to shine through and utilize their moves much more effectively. Doubles could be what could make the lower tier characters break through. Maybe through experimentation people will find that a Ness/Young Link team works really well, or a Luigi/Zelda team. Or maybe do a little mixing of the lows and highs, ie. a Falco/G&W. Maybe I am wrong about this, maybe a totally high tier team will still be the best you can do, but I don't think I am wrong.

Take tennis for example. Some of the best singles players are the guys like Federer and Nadal, but one of the best doubles teams is the Bryan brothers team. The Bryan brothers together are a force to be reckoned with, but if they split up and went to singles, they would most likely get crushed by the Federers and Nadals of the singles scene. So maybe the place where mid to low tiers will really shine will be doubles. The extra variables can really screw up the character balance and make for certain lower tier characters to actually be more preferable over higher tier ones. This doesn't mean that mid to low tiers can't make it in singles play, I just think they have a better chance in doubles.

Of course, this also has to do with player chemistry also, which is another huge variable that can make for some mighty cool lower tier upsets.

In addition, I would like to add something just to keep this thread kind of on topic. I think an underused move of Mewtwo's is the f-smash. It isn't the best f-smash out there(Obviously), but it has good range and is particularly useful for edge-guarding(At least in my "scrub-like" experiences). I think it would be good to sometimes utilize the f-smash in situations where you might pull out a d-smash. Mewtwo is a big target and the f-smash is a safe bet when it comes to not getting hit since Mewtwo can stand pretty far away. Mix it up a bit I guess.

Also, I think the aimed down f-tilt is also good for setting up a down tilt to set up a grab. The f-tilt has better range(I think) than the d-tilt, so instead of wd-ing straight to a couple of d-tilt's, you could sometimes wd to an aimed down f-tilt and then to the d-tilts. I think the hit stun from the f-tilt before the d-tilts will help Mewtwos from not getting their d-tilt approach rejected before it actually begins.

I hope I got all my terms right....

 

[ChivalRuse]

OMG. Your sig is amazing, Ka0star.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Thanks Chival


****s legit, but I kinda believe that fox and somebody else is probably the best team, maybe even double foxes. Its really hard to say because of all the variables. I think low tiers DEF have uncharted teams territory tho.

Like I dont believe m2 is all that great in teams simply because of his hitbox size and low survivability and EZ mode to combo. But if u look at his moves they seem like they would be good in teams lol or at least better than singles.

Dsmash wont accidentaly hit a team mate cuz it hits in 1 direction. can just start edgeguarding as soon as they are knocked off stage by team mate. confusion can reflect and hit other opponent, its kinda weird to watch charge shots pass thru samus and hit their team mate lol its truly confusion. confusion can give your team mate their jump back. You can use disable to set up a power hit by your team mate. nair can be a good aoe. 2 v 1 sb charge infinite. But most of this is just some ol bull**** lol.

as far as the ftilt, I agree, but I use the regular ftilt or angled up a little more just because alot of ppl like to try and jump over the dtilt and this punished the jump a lil better. you basically use ftilt to knock them down and position them and try some sort of tech chase, lol often ends up being dtilt.

Fsmash instead of dsmash is the same theory as falco waiting until u get above the stage to dair or fsmash. Its much harder to tech a fsmash above the stage than teching a dsmash at the ledge or slightly below.

edit: Ive been avoiding playing m2 since my controller broke, cuz playing with a new stick feel and new triggers(only my trigger broke, but I loosened my control stick twice since that happened pretty much for fox play) is kinda frustrating. I make alot of teleport and WD errors
but I will start uploading vidz more often again. I have a few going up now.
/johns

 

[forward]

I think low tiers do worse in doubles because their weaknesses become more apparent. Fox is great in doubles because he can handle the chaos. Fast movement speed and quick attacks let him defend or fight in almost any situation. Most lower tiers rely on 3-4 moves that require very particular spacing and with so much going on in teams they are less likely to get that spacing.

But, it's not impossible. Taj plays M2 in teams and holds stocks super well because he has a good ledge game and M2 is hard to KO combo. The problem with tanking that much though is that it is harder to help your teammate in certain situations. So, match ups are important. If your teammate can handle the 2 on 1 then good. I think certain teams though when played correctly are close to impossible to beat in a 2 on 1.

 

[ItalianStallion]

I think low tiers do worse in doubles because their weaknesses become more apparent. Fox is great in doubles because he can handle the chaos. Fast movement speed and quick attacks let him defend or fight in almost any situation. Most lower tiers rely on 3-4 moves that require very particular spacing and with so much going on in teams they are less likely to get that spacing.

But, it's not impossible. Taj plays M2 in teams and holds stocks super well because he has a good ledge game and M2 is hard to KO combo. The problem with tanking that much though is that it is harder to help your teammate in certain situations. So, match ups are important. If your teammate can handle the 2 on 1 then good. I think certain teams though when played correctly are close to impossible to beat in a 2 on 1.

Yeah, that makes sense, although I would argue that the extra variables would make it easier to get that spacing since the chaos happening around would make your opponents not concentrate on making sure that the low tier doesn't get that spacing. I would also argue that a characters weaknesses become less apparent in doubles due to the lack of concentration on a single character. For example, if Ness is trying to get his recovery going and uses an up b, in singles that can be punished easily, but in doubles if one opponent is fighting Ness's teammate and the other opponent is trying to dodge a projectile accidentally thrown at him by his teammate, then Ness can get back to the stage with less harassment. Although this is all situational, but I think it still applies.

I also like watching Taj's Mewtwo in teams. Although I don't necessarily think Mewtwo is suited for teams, he has some strengths there, as KAOSTAR pointed out.

Like I dont believe m2 is all that great in teams simply because of his hitbox size and low survivability and EZ mode to combo. But if u look at his moves they seem like they would be good in teams lol or at least better than singles.

I agree. Mewtwo is too big for teams. But I still like to use him for teams. Although my main team guys are my #2-5's(Luigi, Zelda, CF, Ganon).

Hey, I was wondering about Shadowball use. When I first started playing Mewtwo, my play style revolved around charged Shadowballs. I would charge and then wait for the opportune shot. As I got better, I started using just baby Shadowballs for spacing and projectiles to follow into my approach. Now, I use them in a mix. I see a lot of pros and cons to all three ways.

One pro to keeping a charged Shadowball is that it is always there to keep your opponent always thinking about the possibility of you throwing it. But Shadowballs travel so slow that when you do throw a big one out there it can easily be dodged.

Using baby Shadowballs as things to throw out in multitude is another way to do it. They help keep your opponent playing defensive which can be uncomfortable for some, but they are kind of laggy. And I have noticed that it can be punished easily if you throw one when you shouldn't have. Like, you get into a rhythm of throwing them and you realize too late that your opponent has jumped over the Shadowball's path and is closing fast.

When you do both, it gives you more options, but it can lead to uncertainty when it comes to your next move. Something like: "Do I throw my charged Shadowball for spacing, or wait till I have a better chance of hitting them like after a throw?" Right now, I mix it up and try to keep it situational. But my main philosophy is to use baby Shadowballs in multitude in my first stock(Unless I have some good moments to charge up), always charge to full after I KO my opponent, and if I get to full, try to keep it till I set something up.


Also, it is hard for me to DJC. I have done it before, but it isn't something I can do on the first try. I think I may be pressing the buttons too slow. I press X-X-A, but I was wondering if there was an easier button combination that you Mewtwo players use that would help. Is pressing X-X-A making it harder on myself, or do I just need to practice on making my fingers press the buttons faster?

 

[ChivalRuse]

You guys clearly haven't seen Mango's Mewtwo in teams. He really knows how to abuse this character's height by powershield -> grabbing SHFFLs.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I feel that most low tier players are bad because they are bad and not as a result of which character their cursor happens to overlap with. So I don't really care who they pick.

...Unless they pick Kirby or Zelda. They're so ****ing boring to play against.

 

[KAOSTAR]

There is probably some truth to that, but nobody starts this game off as a motha***kin KirbyKaze. So by the time a player has put in enough work to be considered "good" or above average they have probably dropped their low tier affiliation already as it was the only way that they saw fit to become good/average.

Every now and then you just have a great player(somebody who turns into) who clicks with a bad character and **** sparkles.

 

[AXE 09]

I feel that most low tier players are bad because they are bad and not as a result of which character their cursor happens to overlap with. So I don't really care who they pick.

Yeah this is kinda what I think too. By the those "bad" low tier players get really advanced, they usually have already switched to a high tier character.

 

[ItalianStallion]

I feel that most low tier players are bad because they are bad and not as a result of which character their cursor happens to overlap with. So I don't really care who they pick.

...Unless they pick Kirby or Zelda. They're so ****ing boring to play against.

I agree with Kaostar that there is probably some truth to that, but you can't dismiss the matter of character limitations. It doesn't matter who is using Mewtwo, they are not going to make his dash as fast as Captain Falcon's or his reactivity and flexibility as great as Sheik. Although it isn't something sportsman-like to say, saying that you lost due to playing a low tier character when your opponent was using a high tier one, has some merit to it. The fact that, let's say, a Ganon player doesn't have to try that hard against Pichu to KO him, while the Pichu has to spend the whole match playing his heart out, shows that it takes a lot more effort and good playing to win with a low tier character than a high tier one(Sort of).

I am not saying that using high tier characters requires less skill, I think all characters require skill and a good player is a good player and nobody should take credit away from him/her due to the character used. What I am saying is that a higher tier player has things like speed, priority, good setups/combos, higher damage, ect., part of their game already. The fact that grabbing with Marth is considerably easier due to his range, is an advantage over other characters. A Ness player however, has to work harder to get his grab in. If a Marth/Marth ditto match happened, and player X grabbed the other Marth 3 more times than player Y grabbed him, then player X outplayed player Y when it came to number of grabs connected. Now player Y(Marth) plays against player Z(Ness) in a match. If player Z grabs Y 3 more times, than Z outplayed Y when it came to number of grabs in a more significant way than X outplayed Y in that regard. Due to the fact that Ness's grab range is shorter, it is harder for Ness to successfully grab than it is for Marth to grab. This isn't just something that can be dismissed.

Just want to reiterate, I am not belittling higher tier players, I am just saying that the statement that lower tier players are bad and lose a lot of matches solely because they are bad players is incorrect. A player who uses Pichu is going to have a heck of a harder time winning against high tier players, even if the Pichu player is a better player than the higher tier ones. If a well known professional smasher picked up Pichu and tried to become awesome with him, it will be harder for him to win matches that would have been easy had he used his Fox or something. (A factor however is preferred playstyle, which I am throwing out the window for the sake of my argument)

Player skill AND character choice both play a role in how good or bad a smasher is.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I agree with Kaostar that there is probably some truth to that, but you can't dismiss the matter of character limitations.

The degree to which the vast, vast majority of low tier players feel their character's limitations are their primary hindrance is hilariously wrong. Namely because they're not playing the character anywhere near its known potential. This is usually the result of their horrible habits, which are a player trait, and have nothing to do with what character they gravitate towards to. They would be bad if they picked Peach or Falco or any other good character for the same reasons they're bad with <low tier>

You are correct to point out that character limitations matter, but... not for the average player. People don't abuse these advantages to the point that they become nearly insurmountable until very late in their development.

 

[ItalianStallion]

The degree to which the vast, vast majority of low tier players feel their character's limitations are their primary hindrance is hilariously wrong.

Yes, I agree. The main limitation a player has in getting better are his/her own player skill. The character that he uses plays a small role only. And this role becomes smaller and smaller once the player gets better and plays to his character's strengths and learns to hide their weaknesses. It might be more difficult to do so with a lower tier, but that shouldn't be an excuse. I mainly use Mewtwo. It was my choice to do so because I like the way he plays, and I think he is cooler than a lot of other characters. If after losing every match I complain about Mewtwo's hitboxes being so big that it makes him easy for my opponent to hit, than all I am doing is belittling the fact that my opponent outplayed me and I am creating an excuse wall I will never get over. Instead I should ask myself what I can do to become more elusive with Mewtwo, and then work on it.

Oh, and that's a funny quote by Cactuar in your signature.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I see what you are saying KK. But thats not indicative to low tier players lmao. Thats just *****s who suck.

You just described a bad player, and called them a low tier player, making it seem as if the character the chose was of importance.

The truth is that low tiers are viable at above sucky level(because its a toss up lol), and become more so at the im aight level(still not good yet lol,ppl at least have seen u b4) then above that their viability goes down at high level(ppl are now exploiting low tiers) and goes up a lil more at mastery.

It just so happens that most ppl who player low tiers, like the vast majority of em are around the im aight level and the ppl they play with are as well. Past that is a long hard road until u start reaping benefits again. good players just give up.

@Italian Stalian, Ill still answer your question about SBs. I had a really detailed response written but then I copied and forgot to past cuz I have a generated password in gunbound and I copied that without saving my previous response.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Low tiers aren't that bad if the opponent approaches.

 

[forward]

Most low tier players are not as competitive as well. Competitive people are the people who get good at the game and most competitive people want to win so they play high tiers, combine those and you get good players who use high tiers.

Most of the best low tier players either use them as a secondary or have a secondary (Taj, Axe, Scrop drop, Azens/Isai's/mango's Link, Neo, etc.) The ones who are use purely low tier are less common, I can't think of many besides Gimpyfish and Bum, but DK is actually a pretty legit character.

 

[leffen]

Honeslty, the difference between characters is so overrated. The reason people still think matchups are close to impossible is because the difference between character metagames is huge. Obv its gonna seem like X character gets ***** if Y has 100 mains who all play to win while X has one decent main.

/rant

 

[ChivalRuse]

^ True to some extent.

 

[KAOSTAR]

No, I think the community has alot of dissolution when it comes to agreeing on MUs as far as difficulty.

Too many high tier players or good players who dont kno **** about low tiers, and conversely too many low tier players who dont know **** about melee lol. Its just hard to find that common ground.

Some low tier player will tell you that x MU is just impossible and other will tell you its almost even lol. Generally both of those ppl are wrong.

Playing a low tier character is about hiding its weaknesses and amplifying its strengths. As player approach the metagame in terms of skill, the openings they will leave become smaller and less frequent.

 

[Orko]

Playing a low tier character is about hiding its weaknesses and amplifying its strengths. As player approach the metagame in terms of skill, the openings they will leave become smaller and less frequent.

These sentences are the most beautiful sentences in the history of time.
I think people stress on MU's too often. Sure, a bad MU can lead to a loss, but if you aren't in a high stakes tournament, take the loss as a learning experiment. Playing intelligently in a bad MU can lead to a better overall game.

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

No, I think the community has alot of dissolution when it comes to agreeing on MUs as far as difficulty.

Too many high tier players or good players who dont kno **** about low tiers, and conversely too many low tier players who dont know **** about melee lol. Its just hard to find that common ground.

Some low tier player will tell you that x MU is just impossible and other will tell you its almost even lol. Generally both of those ppl are wrong.

Playing a low tier character is about hiding its weaknesses and amplifying its strengths. As player approach the metagame in terms of skill, the openings they will leave become smaller and less frequent.

I enjoyed reading this post. =)

 

[ItalianStallion]

No, I think the community has alot of dissolution when it comes to agreeing on MUs as far as difficulty.

Too many high tier players or good players who dont kno **** about low tiers, and conversely too many low tier players who dont know **** about melee lol. Its just hard to find that common ground.

Some low tier player will tell you that x MU is just impossible and other will tell you its almost even lol. Generally both of those ppl are wrong.

Playing a low tier character is about hiding its weaknesses and amplifying its strengths. As player approach the metagame in terms of skill, the openings they will leave become smaller and less frequent.

Good post.

For me, the hardest thing to mask with Mewtwo is his lag. His moves are epic and look cool, but they are also slow. The most aggravating this for my Mewtwo is when I do a wrong move either by accident, or my move misses horribly, Mewtwo can get punished easily due to his size and lag. Doing Mewtwo's side B at the wrong time can invite some hurt.

P.S. Mewtwo is still the best.

 

[omgwtfToph]

No, I think the community has alot of dissolution when it comes to agreeing on MUs as far as difficulty.

Too many high tier players or good players who dont kno **** about low tiers, and conversely too many low tier players who dont know **** about melee lol. Its just hard to find that common ground.

Some low tier player will tell you that x MU is just impossible and other will tell you its almost even lol. Generally both of those ppl are wrong.

Playing a low tier character is about hiding its weaknesses and amplifying its strengths. As player approach the metagame in terms of skill, the openings they will leave become smaller and less frequent.

daaaamn

this ***** said... DISSOLUTION

Also holy **** at Super Silent Z7 with a join date of Nov. 2010 and 800 posts. @__@

 

[TheLake]

Low tier players want to feel special

High tier players want power

and mid tier players want to be good with ganon cause hes sweet

me...

i just want the money

its alll about the money :D

 

[ChivalRuse]

I love playing low tiers. Especially when I win. Lol.

 

[Taj278]

*Well, I figure I'd post some random ideas I've been thinking about since it's been a while. I've had this saved for a while, but I was kind of reluctant to post it, but **** it. I can clarify more if anyone has any questions or disagrees with anything.*

A few people ask me why I play Mewtwo, while other people may assume why I play Mewtwo. Just to get it out of the way, I never played Mewtwo because "Tiers R4 Queers" or anything of the sort. I played Mewtwo because I liked the character, he was fun to play, a great warm-up/friendly character, and oddly effective against certain playstyles at high-level play.

When the game first came out, I said I wanted to be the best Mewtwo player in the world, just assuming that he was a good character and hard to play because he was one of the last characters unlocked. Had Mewtwo's specials been more effective, that would have likely been the reality. Even when I was 13 as the game came out, I knew that Mewtwo had trouble against certain characters. When I first entered the tournament scene, I just used Sheik and Marth, because I thought I handled the majority of the cast better. (Well before I knew about tier lists and had an in-depth knowledge of character match-ups.)

My question then, is why do we care so much about getting the tier-list right? By right, I mean creating seemingly long-term tier-lists. I'm pretty sure most other fighting games don't do this, and I don't think Melee should be an exception. Finding out that Jiggs can crouch rest half of a character's approaches and it being demonstrated for a season that Jiggs appears to have an advantage over the majority of the cast SHOULD carry a lot more weight than speculation from Fox mains that have or don't have trouble beating their friend's Jigglypuffs.

Axe demonstrating strong match-ups against space animals, losing close matches to Hbox, farming every Marth on the west coast, and only really having trouble with Jiggs should say more for that character. Whether that changes by people "learning" the match-up, or finding new ways to survive gimps is equally fair-game. We should embrace the idea that right now, Zelda is showing greater prowess than the other low tiers, until it's proven otherwise. As much as I think that Mewtwo edges out the character advantage over Roy and Zelda, it's been a while since I've demonstrated it, and from recent events, I'm willing to say that for the moment Zelda does edge out Mewtwo as a character and in the particular match-up.

It's okay to be wrong or mistaken, and it's also okay to have an opinion as long as it is justified. I think the tier lists should be more flexible, our understanding of character match-ups should be more flexible, and I think it is okay to have characters move back and forth even if the game doesn't change and only the people do. We change, our capabilities grow and evolve, and we're starting to explore new and old ideas.

It is Intelligence vs. Speed, or a mixture of both while being equally meticulous. We have options, we play hundreds of thousands of matches, we watch tons of videos, and yet we can't accept when Fox isn't necessarily the best character in the game anymore. This isn't 2007 anymore, call me crazy, but I think Captain Falcon is a stronger character than Marth right now. Yes, we know that Fox can be "potentially" the best character in the game, and he's a tough character to play against, but he's also one of the easiest characters to practice against and one of the easiest characters to sit around in training mode and mess around with.

What is the tier list to you?

This is important. We talk about it all the time, but what exactly are we taking into consideration when we rate character placement.

Match-ups? Tournament results? Potential? All of the above?


*TLDR* I play Mewtwo, he’s 20th best in the game. I play Marth to kill Falco, and I think our tier-list should be more dynamic and updated periodically based on ever-changing match-ups, ideas, and tournament results. I think it promotes more discussion, the same kind of good and bad discussion that long-term lists generate, but still more discussion.

 

[Tee ay eye]

just to set the record straight
you are a mewtwo main

because i told my prom date i was the best marth main in az

<3

 

[Niko45]

I couldn't agree more. There's unfortunately what is (imo) I really smug over-analytical section of the smash community that is really high off their understanding of the game and over-value theory.

What Axe has done with Pikachu is incredible but I remember a year or more ago when I'd talk about how Pikachu was clearly being shown to be better than previously thought people would say things like "Nah, Axe is just amazing" or "It's just one player, I need to see more players play Pikachu that well first."

The thing is, what Axe has accomplished with Pikachu is fantastic and he deserves tons of credit for being a great player, but Pikachu deserves credit too. They go hand and hand. He's not picking Pikachu to sandbag people, he's picking Pikachu because he feels it gives him his best chance to win, and it's produced numerous top 10 placings at nationals for him. That says a ton about Pikachu, especially considering that his secondary is FALCO, who in many circles is now considered to be the best overall character in the game. I think there are a lot of people out there who don't give actual tangible results enough weight in determining these types of things.

 

[ChivalRuse]

@ Tai: Was she impressed?

 

[DelxDoom]

ahaha haley reinhart


yeah Falcon is ridiculously awesome, he should theoretically be able to go through everyone

 

[Taj278]

I was about to put some people on blast, but I realized there isn't much point in doing that anymore. My opinions aren't respected enough to persuade anyone one way or another, so I've decided to make my pre-epic 1337 post reflecting on some of my smash related mistakes.

I'd also like to read some of your stories if you want to share them. They don't have to be as serious as the one's I'm posting.

It doesn't matter if it is gameplay related or player related, it just has to be smash related.

I have a couple of gameplay regrets, but I think I'm going to share a couple of player-related regrets that are stuck out in recent memory. I also hope that in explaining my point of view, that any persons involved may either forgive me or understand why I made the choices that I did.

One of my earliest regrets was at my first out of state tournament at one of Ken's biweeklies in July, 2004. The most I regret from this in reflection was my selfishness, because the person that was affected was Forward.

We got second in teams losing to Ken and Manacloud, I think that was the first time we ever teamed together unless I forgot about some random Tucson tournament in between my earlier debut in the AZ scene in March.

Anyway, we were ****** singles, too. Taking out Ken’s Elite 4 and everything. Forward sent Pedro and Manacloud to losers, I sent Tavo to losers, played Ken for the first time, and I did REALLY well. He was mostly just kidding around the entire tournament, but I felt like I accomplished something by beating his Falcon with my Fox and forcing him to bring out his Marth. It went down to last stock and he was at up throw up air percentage, but he beat me and sent me to losers. I took out Bananaclown, and had to play Forward (Which he ended up banning us from ever coming back for 3 years.)

I wanted to win really badly. So badly, that I ended up cheesing the **** out of him and just straight up playing Jiggs and crouching the whole game and playing for up throw rests. It was the first time that I eliminated him from a tournament, and it was all so that I could get another crack at Ken. I ended up getting absolutely *****, and I know that Forward wasn’t very happy about losing to me. I think ever since then, I’ve always been really apprehensive about playing against him.

I should've given him the opportunity as an AZ brother to take on Ken, or at the very least played him straight up with my Sheik/Fox instead of resorting to cheese under those circumstances. I have no problem with people cheesing, but it just isn't something I should do against my teammates and comrades. I think I was too young to realize it as I was still new to the community, and I hadn't really thought about gaming in general the way that I do now, almost 7 years later in competitive Melee.

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My next regret would have to be at MLG LA 2005. This one is considerably shorter. My only regret from that tournament other than the drive home, was forfeiting to DSF in losers because he told me he could beat Isai and split money with me. That was one of the few tournaments where I had a good chance of not only beating him, but maybe even getting some notoriety from placing high and I was playing so well that I could’ve seen myself going toe to toe against Isai. To this day, Isai is the last legend that I never got to play 1v1 in friendlies or tournament.
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This last one for the night is directed toward Jash at Pound 4. I don’t know if he accepts it as a justification for my actions or not, but I’ll explain myself anyway.

That weekend I was getting progressively sicker. I was pretty hyped from the event, but because of my illness I would say that my general temperament can change quickly from little things. Jash sits down to play me, I don’t recall anything ever being said, I don’t even remember if I recognized him as Jash until after we played or not.

Well, he ended up just top platform camping my Mewtwo on Dream Land, and when I recognized that he was quite serious about keeping that up despite his lead…in a friendly… with no dialogue, I just decided that the match wasn’t worth playing and I walked away. I didn’t even think about his perspective of the whole event, all I thought about was why would someone want to play that way in a first-time friendly without even mentioning he wanted a serious match?

And it wasn’t until relatively recently that I even thought about my “status” as a player. Axe even brought this up, and said that from the old player perspective, we just exist for new players to come in and beat us. He’s absolutely right, I’ve thought about it before, but actually hearing it put like that made a lot of sense. It is most likely that Jash sat down and played me with something to prove and I just overlooked it from my crummy disposition that I’m just a dude sitting on a TV messing around with my Mewtwo. I tend to forget that for some reason people ONLY recognize me for my Mewtwo. Also, that in a tournament or even a friendly match that ONE match can mean a lot to someone just like it used to with me when I first played Ken.

So I want to openly apologize to Jash for rage-quitting in our friendly, and I wouldn’t mind playing with you again. I just don’t want to play that match-up on DL64, because it takes way too much time to crack a YL’s shell on that stage, and a player of your caliber would most likely **** me indefinitely. I don’t think Mewtwo vs. YL is unwinnable for Mewtwo, especially on stages with low/nonexistent top platforms, and if that was what you were trying to prove to me, then I accept your challenge.

I meant no disrespect to you as a player, at the time I just felt like that gameplay was disrespectful to me.
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Oh yeah, if that dude still exists that greeted me at OC3 and said, “Hey dude, I play Mewtwo, too!” and I sarcastically said, “I’m sorry.” I was just joking, and my friends still give me crap for that because it was pretty funny and ****ish (Even though my condolences for your losses are likely justified).

I have one more big one that I'll post another time, maybe for my 1337th post, or maybe next week.

Oh late night posts, how you cleanse the mind. Maybe I should drink and post! Next time, baby.