Q&A Mewtwo Philosophy - Q&A Ask Away

[KAOSTAR]

late night posts ftw! only real regret that I have is basically making some sort of excuse for not trying in friendlies and even in tournament. I really shouldn't have had that much of a problem losing. in the long run that attitude held me back a little bit. it kept me from truly growing as a player and I feel I have wasted time in a sense.

 

[Roysourboy666]

Im playing mewtwo, because He ROCKS !! In his slow style I discovered that, that is the way I wanna play ! Most of the people likes fast characters but, with mewtwo, its an art to pulverise a FOX or a sheik... lol (I must practice more , more) He reminds me of Akuma, with his demon aura, lol,
So I really like Mewtwo, and want to improve a lot, and with all of these thread that comes handy , its nice I do care about the tier list, and want to change things And nothing is more satisfaying than to obliterate somebody with this powerful shadow psycho slow mo ! even his speed I mean, he isnt That slow lol , but only once you grasp that timing his F-air, gives me some good ideas of killing method I often aproach by f-tilting. followed to another f-tilt, to d-tilt, to grab and , try to kill with f-air, as, its fast enough, but requires a lot of aproach to land it
anyway, I think by wanting to improve a lot, and prove, that Mewtwo can be a powerful opponent, I'd say, thats how I play Mewtwo.

 

[ItalianStallion]

Changing up the Tier List philosophy.

It is strange that tier lists are used for melee. And it is also strange that the Melee community hasn't implemented an idea that seems quite natural to do.

I think tier lists are important in showcasing how unbalanced the character choices are, however, tier lists should also show that with practice and technique, balance issues can be overcome.

This is why I think two different tier lists should be implemented.

One of the lists will be a very "statistical" list where based on hard-coded things in the game, the characters will be ranked. For example, things like lag, grab range, power, speed, etc., will factor into this list making it a list that will be more stable and definite. There is nothing you can do to make Ness's grab range like Marth's, so Marth would beat Ness in that category. These kind of comparisons in certain categories would be what this tier list was all about.

Then there should be another tier list that is more subject to change. It will take in all the variables that will come into play. Stages, play-styles, tournament placings, player techniques, etc. So in this tier list, a crappy character like Mewtwo, could rise through the ranks if people started playing him very well, while Mewtwo would probably stay low in the first tier list since he has many things hard-coded in that are working against him. This tier list will be ever-evolving and updated often. It can also be motivation for character communities to work together to raise their character's spot on this list, because it would be entirely possible to do so if people started using the character very well.

The problem with this idea is that we would have to clearly define which factors went into each tier list. Wave-dash length, while a player technique, is still something coded in the game, so that would be a factor in the first tier list (In my opinion). However, a Mewtwo player using the bair more effectively would be a factor of the second tier list, since using the move more effectively still doesn't change the lag time/hitboxes/power/etc. of the move. Certain things like using Mewtwo's side special to pull an opponent through battlefield, would be tricky. It is technically coded in the game, but it is essentially a technique developed by a player. Where would we put that? In list 1 or list 2?

There are probably many problems with attempting to do this, but if it could be done well, I think it would help solve a lot of problems with Tier Lists in the community. I know that I find it atrocious that Luigi is below Mario. Having the second tier list be more malleable and based on player skill with that character, makes it possible for the most dedicated players to help advance and evolve their character to get him/her higher on tier list 2.

So what do you guys think? Is this idea possible and perhaps the right way to go, or is it a stupid idea that could never be done correctly?

 

[Tee ay eye]

all most of my big tournament regrets involve losing to sheik....

 

[Tee ay eye]

my new biggest regret:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmJlkki_lew

 

[Walt]

Haha, that suuuuuuucks.

 

[Deleted member]

When the game first came out, I said I wanted to be the best Mewtwo player in the world, just assuming that he was a good character and hard to play because he was one of the last characters unlocked. Had Mewtwo's specials been more effective, that would have likely been the reality. Even when I was 13 as the game came out, I knew that Mewtwo had trouble against certain characters. When I first entered the tournament scene, I just used Sheik and Marth, because I thought I handled the majority of the cast better. (Well before I knew about tier lists and had an in-depth knowledge of character match-ups.)

Wow tony, really? This is for you and me both. Unfortunately, I was the "best mewtwo" early into the game's long life span and hit the glass ceiling where the only other mewtwo player i hadn't beaten yet was in japan. shortly before i met you at one of the *pound* events i had pretty much lost interest in the character in favor of zelda.

the last tournament set i ever used mewtwo in, i lost to m2k's fox.

I started playing competitive melee for 2 reasons, and accomplished both over time:

1. to be the best mewtwo player in the world.
2. to knock azen zagenite out of a tournament.

 

[Taj278]

Genesis 2 Reflections Part 1: My Thoughts/Feelings

First, this tournament was just as awesome as the first Genesis. In my seven years of competitive play, both Genesis tournaments were my favorite tournaments to date, and if you haven't gone to one, you really should try to save a dollar a day and make it to the next one they decide to host if they'll continue hosting them.

Going into this tournament, I had no expectations. I jokingly wanted the belt, I expected Wobbles and Axe to be the forerunners in bringing it home to AZ. I wasn't even sure if making it out of pools was a realistic goal for me.

I have so much to say about this tournament, but I think I'm just going to break this up into a few parts.

First, I just want to say thank you to everyone that acknowledged and supported me as a player at this tournament. This is the first time since I've lost my original controller in 2007 that I've placed so well in a major tournament. Even though I think I just had a lot of fortune in my pools and bracket, I still appreciate everyone giving me legitimate credit for my accomplishments and thinking positively about my abilities and success. You guys are the reason I even still want to improve and be involved in this community, thank you for everything. (Also, big shout outs to the TOs, I would say more but this isn't a shoutout post.)

Mango and Armada.

Two SS class players that are just on a whole different dimension. Apparently there is some conspiracy about Mango throwing the set to me in order to eliminate players from bracket. I don't know, and if he did, then that sucks I guess. I'm not conceited enough to say that I'm on his, PP's, Hboxs, M2Ks, or anyone else's level from that. I only know what I'm good at, and that's Marth dittos and killing the bird. I'm pretty well-rounded, I'm good against Sheiks even though I didn't play any, I'm about average against Peach, and I suck against Falcon and Fox unless I'm hyper-focused.

Mango is just completely better than me. Both sets, he out played me completely. Tai told me to not play Mango, but to play against Falco. He was right, I did that and I won. I did try to use his style against him though, but I just played my game, had some fun and I took the set from his Falco. Whether he was trying or not, he was the toughest Falco out there for me. He did incredible combos, his edgeguards were on point, and he was relentless. I'm glad players like him and Axe exist and succeed with their very aggressive styles. Having successful aggressive and passive players taking top spots is great for the metagame. It shows that you can play the game the way that's best for you, and not what's best for the game.

People can say I play gay, but I play the 20th best character in the game against characters that have many frame advantages on their approaches and they whine about me not wanting to throw myself at them and die at 80% from free combos? If Falcos don't approach, I approach. If they approach, then let's play the game. If Light exploits his character advantage and a couple of floaty characters can't beat him out in the projectile war, then they either need to find away or change their character. He's a good player, he does what works, and even though it LOOKS easy, I've made this point before when I talked a little bit about player styles, there is a lot of thought and processing going on when Light is playing. It took me a long time to really realize that he was a good player and respect him for his skill regardless of how he decides to use the game mechanics.


Armada is just a monster I want to become. I wish he would've toe-to-toed me when I went Mewtwo on him, but he played to win and he played the match-up the way he needed to in order to win. He's super smart, has great reactions and spacing. Hopefully, I can still develop what I need to compete against him better. I really wanted to try to keep the match interesting, and did whatever I could to try to crack his float camp, but it is quite difficult and requires a lot of focus that I can't maintain for the whole match.

Even though I got third place, this tournament was so humbling. I finally feel like I have a direction to move in improvement. I just walked into this tournament with some 2007 mindgames and a couple of metagame edgeguards on Falco and I got third place.

I already posted on Dr. PP's wall, but that guy is an awesome champ and we need more players like him. His attitude is what leaves great lasting impressions and is why people cheer for him. A lot of people are down after their losses. I've learned over time to keep my head up, and I hope he does, too. But what separates this dude from other people that get down, is that he still showed respect for his losses. No lies, no excuses, he walked over to me later and congratulated me, and that's the kind of character that builds this community and gets the crowd to cheer for you. I now understand why everyone wants him to stack it up.

I'm surprised at how excited I got when I won my big matches, and I'm also curious why I was so mellow shortly afterwards. After I lost to Armada in winner's finals, I knew Mango was gonna come hard, and I wanted to see the rematch against badly. I was talking to Wobbles and Tai about it a lot, and I think it really showed that I had no goals that far into the bracket. I was just laughing my *** off when I was playing Armada and getting stitch faced/***** and playing teams. Mango just came and styled on me, 4 stocked me, showed me I ain't ****, and I said go get em.

Man, this tournament was awesome. Part 2, I'll give a rundown on my matches, and more thoughts on players.

Post 1338 now.

 

[Tee ay eye]

i think it's fair to give me 50% of your winnings since i'm probably like 50% responsible for your WB win against mango that took you to guaranteed 3rd

Spoiler

so very obviously kidding

this post makes me excited

i cannot wait to move into my dorm and play very very many rounds of super smash brothers melee with you and robert.

 

[AXE 09]

Tony man... I can't believe how amazing you are. You gave me so much happiness this weekend, and just watching you play and seeing you all hype made me so proud and happy to be your friend. Cheering for you gave me so much joy, and I feel so honored that I got to be with you on stage cheering my heart out. I love you so much man. I'm so glad that I got to go to Genesis with you. Thank you so much for everything <3

 

[Zoler]

I was so happy when you beat Mango, Taj. Even if we barely talked at Genesis2 I thought you were awesome and I hope to see you **** at Apex as well.

 

[Shadow Huan]

ahh, a reason for returning to the mewtwo boards

good read, I'm gonna be lurking to read the last part

congrats on being the highest placing marth main at the tourny :D

 

[Dr Peepee]

Great post, Taj. =)

I like reading your stuff.

 

[The Phenom]

Congratulations Taj!

Edit-Some day in the future I'll entertain you as a thanks...my way of course
---------
CLASS OF 2009!!!

 

[KAOSTAR]

good **** taj, 4 real yo.

 

[Silly Kyle]

I love you, Tony!!! <3 AZ baby!!! :-)

 

[mers]

Good ****, Taj. You've always been one of my smash role models, and this is exactly why.

Thanks for showing that smash can always be about fun, no matter what level one plays at.

 

[SDC]

Great work Taj, I don't really care what character you go, as long as you do as well as you did. I was so happy to see you make it that far Taj. <3

 

[Cosmo!]

Taj I saw your marth on the stream. It was completely glorious and it made me want to bring my marth out of retirement. great sets!

I feel you on the being bad against fox and falcon thing. I think those are my worst matchups as a player.

Also, while you were playing Armada I thought that you may have been able to use wd forward->utilt with mewtwo to fight the floating, but it's just a theory thing and I don't play mewtwo

 

[BunBun]

Taj, it's always a joy to read your posts. You mentioned how impressive PP's attitude is, but you need to realize yours is awesome as well. Being able to laugh your *** off in winners finals of an international tournament while losing is something that shows you truly enjoy the game you're playing. More power to you man.


All that said, I think nerves hit you a little hard in your first two matches vs Armada. You started getting really predictable, doing the same things over and over that never really worked. The one thing I noticed that was hurting you harder than anything else was your game from the ledge. I don't know about Mewtwo much at all, so there may not have been any other choice, but when you were hanging on the ledge, you almost always teleported to the same spot on the stage, and you got called out on it multiple times.

Whatever though, because you did freaking awesome man.

 

[Taj278]

Genesis Reflections Part 2

The World is a Big Place

Gah, I still have so much to say about this tournament. My mind has wandered so much, I wish I were smart enough to articulate it all.

It's still just so incredible that at this stage of the game we can have so many prominent players from literally everywhere. Demonstrating that talent and dedication can birth champions from almost any location. We still have such a wide variety of styles for such a simple game. Our foreign competitors have always come in and done so well since the first Genesis, I wouldn't be surprised if we had foreign mid tiers come splash on the US in the future. (I predict Link will take top spots again in the future. )

@Cosmo! Thanks mang, I definitely wanted to attack more, but I felt like he was too low to make it work because I was testing his reactions the whole match. He convinced me that I would most likely trade or straight lose if I tried it. I undoubtedly squandered many opportunities against him though. He was always floating at such intimidating heights where I thought he would trade against me if I tried.

@BunBun- Thanks. Yeah, I get really nervous, and I do my best to try and use that predictability against people, but sometimes I feel like I just gotta commit to my teleports just because it generally is safe even if they call it unless they time their attacks correctly. I usually just want to forcibly take back the middle even if I lose some percentage doing it.

I've been in the scene so long and I still get nervous at tournaments. I'm pretty sure everyone gets nervous, too. The crowd hype, the cheering, the random dude that yells about how much you suck, all of it makes you nervous. I did what I could to deal with it, but I'm not sure how I can improve in that regard. I tried headphones, and I felt like it was working, but the ones I had kept falling out of my ear mid-match. Even with music, the jitters are always there, I guess suppressing them the best you can is all you can do unless you just thrive off of the pressure.

The last time I felt this humbled after a tournament was when DSF beat me at the first tournament I entered. I have a new-founded appreciation for how good everyone is, and how much our bottom line has improved. The average player now, would top 32 competitors in 06. It's crazy how far everyone has come along.

I'm very rarely in a position, even playing against monsters like Forward over time, where even though I get outplayed I never feel like I'm just playing someone to take stocks. I might not have put enough thought into this, but I think that could be what separates a lot of up and coming players and discourages them depending on who they play.

I remember when I was just a local hero, people would often have contests among themselves to see how many stocks they can take off of me, or how high of a percentage they can get me to if they couldn't take stocks. I ended up molding my style around not giving them the satisfaction, lol.

When I play someone like Armada and Mango, perhaps it is evident in the way that I approach the match-ups, but I'm looking for ways to win the match and not just take a respectable number of stocks. If I can help it, I would rather just 4 stock or get 4 stocked by everyone on the planet, but that's unrealistic. I'd rather resign when I'm out played than play for a morale stock. It's interesting how matches vary so much and yet the matches average out and get close. Some people obliterate eachother, others have a super tight game where each stock is a struggle, and yet we often have tight sets because of it.

Addressing the few people that think that I should've kept trying despite the odds. I couldn't beat Armada, I couldn't see a way to win, and I wasn't in the right mentality to beat him. Can I beat him in the future? I don't know, I'm getting kind of old and I'm not sure how much potential I still have left. I'm trying to pass everything down to Tai, but I'm a terrible teacher, lol. I would love to be the Alex Valle of this game if the community is still strong when I'm that old.

I thought the first Genesis was going to be my last tournament, but I have too much fun playing this game with everyone. I definitely learned a few things from this tournament, and I found the direction I need to move toward improvement. Will I ever be on the top 5's planet when it comes to skill? Can I learn to hit as hard as M2K with Marth? These are just a couple of things I'm going to work on, but I suppose reality is what's going to determine if I can do it or not. Regardless, I'm going to always play this game for fun. I love the community, I love the game, and I'd rather not let my desire to compete poison that for me. You can call me a loser, and you'd be right.

I don't like losing like most other people, but I suppose as I'm getting older I'm starting to understand more that SOMEONE has to lose, respect why you lost, reflect on it, get better from it, and if you dislike losing, do your best to keep it from happening again. Basically, don't let your hatred of losing turn you into a salty *******. Watching EVO last night, I'm really glad that the majority of those top players seem to understand that. They played with so much passion and pride and a lot of them held their heads up when they lost despite the pain of losing. That's the attitude that's healthy for their community and their competitive spirit, and it's something we in the Melee community have had for a long time and I've never really thought about it much.

-------------

Since it was requested, I'll talk a little bit about my more notable matches at Genesis 2.

Armada: Before the match, I was thinking to myself for the longest time. Actually ever since Hbox cleaned up my last stock in crews at Apex... If I play either of these guys, my match has to go to time. I've been trying soooo hard to convince myself I needed to play that way in order to win against those players as Mewtwo. I'm still convinced that with my skill-level that the matches would have to play out that way.

I got ahead early on him every time I played him, and I don't know if you guys can see it, but I saw the way I was screaming at myself after I got ahead to just STAY on the ledge the whole game. It's why I can teleport stall for almost an hour at a casual rate, it's why I can do the hard stall under pressure for at least three reps... I had to camp him out to win, because I'm not good enough and too nervous to hold the focus to toe-to-toe him the rest of the match.

I love playing for the crowd, lol. The hype made me want to crack his float camp even when I was too timid to commit to anything, and so I returned to the stage and got *****, lol. I definitely squandered a few opportunities where I probably should have up tilted or even returned to my old style and try to space down tilts against him. I think I was just too scared from his precision, too worried about eating his spaced aerials into downsmash, too worried that he'd be fast enough to react to my approach and force trades on me that I think I just fell apart.

When I went Marth game three in Winner's against him, I was too nervous about messing up the blind recovery on PS on my 3 stock that I recovered high and decided to just eat a turnip and regain my focus for the sweetspot and that stichface just BLEW me away mentally and obviously in game. I HAD to gg there, because at that point I lost so much focus that there was no way I was going to win and I had to resign. Armada is just so slippery against Marth, Peach in general always feels like that, but Armada just takes it to another level. He distorts reality and he reaches me when I'm running away, he feels like he's clearly in range and I whiff and get down tilted... EVERY TIME. It's incredible and I really have to go into the lab and find a way to compete with that crazy timing and spacing.

PP-

I was all super nervous and stuff, I don't think I have as much to say about the matches because they were pools. I was really nervous, I got lucky where it counted, my nervous increased my reaction and focus in certain aspects. My powershielding and movement were good, but I ended up trying to mind game instead of react in certain situations and PP owned me for it very thoroughly, lol. I always need to keep reminding myself that I'm not that smart when I play.

I think I kind of sensed his nervousness, too. I'm not sure if it had more to do with the flow of the match or if he felt like I pressured him, but I feel like I sensed something and I started playing more aggressively toward the end of each match. I feel like we both kind of shifted our roles during each match where I played passively and he was cracking my shell and then I started charging for him and he started baiting me out. Excellent Falco, PP. I wouldn't be surprised if he scrapes me next time we play and he's healthy with his stack it up crew behind him. I kind of had every psychological advantage on my side except for being favored to win. I had the crowd, he was sick, and I had the element of surprise since I am a nobody. GG's despite those circumstances though.

Even though my pool had three Falcos in it, they were all really good and gave me more trouble than everyone else, lol.

Mango (Falco)- He shoots less lasers than other Falcos. He basically seemed to play me like Axe except less technical and less vulnerable. He timed his lasers just like Axe would so I started adapting to that, but they were still pretty flawless approaches and my unfamiliarity with him made the matches super hard. It was like playing Forward if I had forgot exactly how he played or something. The only thing that let me keep my composure through the set was just that it was Falco. It was my favorite match-up and it didn't matter if it was the best player in the world playing it. Axe has a lot more muscle in his pressure than Mango, but Mango was just a lot more flexible in his approaches. His angles were just a bit more potent and he was a bit wiser with how he challenged me by the ledge than Axe would be.

G$ was definitely throwing me off the most. The crowd and the cheering wasn't helping, but having someone yelling out how much you suck gets to me, lol. In the future, I may reciprocate this behavior to EC just to show them how it feels and I might even do it angrily, because just thinking about it is irritating me right now. I've never been in a fight once in my life, but I can see myself blowing up if they take it too far.

Mango is the most talented player in the world, to me at least. He is someone that can basically do anything in this game (except play Mewtwo ). Armada is the champ for now though, he earned it.

Against his Fox- NOPE. He tapped me so hard. I went in with a losing mentality and he definitely demonstrated that I was a loser haha. I wasn't prepared for Fox, let alone that monstrosity of a Fox. People said I should have gone M2 from match 1, and they were probably right. I wasn't even thinking of winning at that point, I think I was just waiting to see if he'd make a mistake and when I saw no chance of winning, I acknowledged it. I know it sucks to some people that I don't go all the way, but it's just the way I see the game. Mewtwo would've gotten me better results when my head is messed up, but it wouldn't have won me a game let alone a set with the way he was playing. I'd rather Mango keep that hotness so we have an amazing GF than burn him out trying to crack my defensive M2.

I've made 3-4 stock comebacks plenty of times in my career, the thing is... I do them when I see how it is possible. At this stage of Melee, it should be less surprising that players like M2K, Wobbles, Forward, and myself might resign against prominent players when the probability of winning is highly improbable.

It's like playing SC and trying to win against a supply capped Protoss with 4 bases as a 120 supply Zerg on 2 bases. Possible? I guess, but highly improbable still against someone that knows what they're doing. We've seen comebacks like that in the past, but there is usually a REASON that those comebacks happen.

Well I guess that's enough Johns for the day.

I've got so much more to say, but I guess I'll leave that for Part 3...

 

[Tee ay eye]

looking forward to it

 

[Fried Ice Cream]

G$ is definitely in the top tier of annoying ****s in this community.

 

[Taj278]

He's funny, I like the dude, I just don't like it when the jeering is so... focused against me I suppose. I understand supporting your boy, I can even understand cheering wildly for your boy, I guess I just don't like the personals. Phil and Waffles **** talk is awesome. It's distracting too, but it's not as... insulting I suppose.

 

[DelxDoom]

Love the references to SF and starcraft

posts too good etc

 

[Zoler]

Didn't know you played SC, Taj, cool.

 

[Wobbles]

The World is a Big Place

Gah, I still have so much to say about this tournament. My mind has wandered so much, I wish I were smart enough to articulate it all.

It's still just so incredible that at this stage of the game we can have so many prominent players from literally everywhere. Demonstrating that talent and dedication can birth champions from almost any location. We still have such a wide variety of styles for such a simple game. Our foreign competitors have always come in and done so well since the first Genesis, I wouldn't be surprised if we had foreign mid tiers come splash on the US in the future. (I predict Link will take top spots again in the future. )

@Cosmo! Thanks mang, I definitely wanted to attack more, but I felt like he was too low to make it work because I was testing his reactions the whole match. He convinced me that I would most likely trade or straight lose if I tried it. I undoubtedly squandered many opportunities against him though. He was always floating at such intimidating heights where I thought he would trade against me if I tried.

@BunBun- Thanks. Yeah, I get really nervous, and I do my best to try and use that predictability against people, but sometimes I feel like I just gotta commit to my teleports just because it generally is safe even if they call it unless they time their attacks correctly. I usually just want to forcibly take back the middle even if I lose some percentage doing it.

I've been in the scene so long and I still get nervous at tournaments. I'm pretty sure everyone gets nervous, too. The crowd hype, the cheering, the random dude that yells about how much you suck, all of it makes you nervous. I did what I could to deal with it, but I'm not sure how I can improve in that regard. I tried headphones, and I felt like it was working, but the ones I had kept falling out of my ear mid-match. Even with music, the jitters are always there, I guess suppressing them the best you can is all you can do unless you just thrive off of the pressure.

The last time I felt this humbled after a tournament was when DSF beat me at the first tournament I entered. I have a new-founded appreciation for how good everyone is, and how much our bottom line has improved. The average player now, would top 32 competitors in 06. It's crazy how far everyone has come along.

I'm very rarely in a position, even playing against monsters like Forward over time, where even though I get outplayed I never feel like I'm just playing someone to take stocks. I might not have put enough thought into this, but I think that could be what separates a lot of up and coming players and discourages them depending on who they play.

I remember when I was just a local hero, people would often have contests among themselves to see how many stocks they can take off of me, or how high of a percentage they can get me to if they couldn't take stocks. I ended up molding my style around not giving them the satisfaction, lol.

When I play someone like Armada and Mango, perhaps it is evident in the way that I approach the match-ups, but I'm looking for ways to win the match and not just take a respectable number of stocks. If I can help it, I would rather just 4 stock or get 4 stocked by everyone on the planet, but that's unrealistic. I'd rather resign when I'm out played than play for a morale stock. It's interesting how matches vary so much and yet the matches average out and get close. Some people obliterate eachother, others have a super tight game where each stock is a struggle, and yet we often have tight sets because of it.

Addressing the few people that think that I should've kept trying despite the odds. I couldn't beat Armada, I couldn't see a way to win, and I wasn't in the right mentality to beat him. Can I beat him in the future? I don't know, I'm getting kind of old and I'm not sure how much potential I still have left. I'm trying to pass everything down to Tai, but I'm a terrible teacher, lol. I would love to be the Alex Valle of this game if the community is still strong when I'm that old.

I thought the first Genesis was going to be my last tournament, but I have too much fun playing this game with everyone. I definitely learned a few things from this tournament, and I found the direction I need to move toward improvement. Will I ever be on the top 5's planet when it comes to skill? Can I learn to hit as hard as M2K with Marth? These are just a couple of things I'm going to work on, but I suppose reality is what's going to determine if I can do it or not. Regardless, I'm going to always play this game for fun. I love the community, I love the game, and I'd rather not let my desire to compete poison that for me. You can call me a loser, and you'd be right.

I don't like losing like most other people, but I suppose as I'm getting older I'm starting to understand more that SOMEONE has to lose, respect why you lost, reflect on it, get better from it, and if you dislike losing, do your best to keep it from happening again. Basically, don't let your hatred of losing turn you into a salty *******. Watching EVO last night, I'm really glad that the majority of those top players seem to understand that. They played with so much passion and pride and a lot of them held their heads up when they lost despite the pain of losing. That's the attitude that's healthy for their community and their competitive spirit, and it's something we in the Melee community have had for a long time and I've never really thought about it much.

-------------

Since it was requested, I'll talk a little bit about my more notable matches at Genesis 2.

Armada: Before the match, I was thinking to myself for the longest time. Actually ever since Hbox cleaned up my last stock in crews at Apex... If I play either of these guys, my match has to go to time. I've been trying soooo hard to convince myself I needed to play that way in order to win against those players as Mewtwo. I'm still convinced that with my skill-level that the matches would have to play out that way.

I got ahead early on him every time I played him, and I don't know if you guys can see it, but I saw the way I was screaming at myself after I got ahead to just STAY on the ledge the whole game. It's why I can teleport stall for almost an hour at a casual rate, it's why I can do the hard stall under pressure for at least three reps... I had to camp him out to win, because I'm not good enough and too nervous to hold the focus to toe-to-toe him the rest of the match.

I love playing for the crowd, lol. The hype made me want to crack his float camp even when I was too timid to commit to anything, and so I returned to the stage and got *****, lol. I definitely squandered a few opportunities where I probably should have up tilted or even returned to my old style and try to space down tilts against him. I think I was just too scared from his precision, too worried about eating his spaced aerials into downsmash, too worried that he'd be fast enough to react to my approach and force trades on me that I think I just fell apart.

When I went Marth game three in Winner's against him, I was too nervous about messing up the blind recovery on PS on my 3 stock that I recovered high and decided to just eat a turnip and regain my focus for the sweetspot and that stichface just BLEW me away mentally and obviously in game. I HAD to gg there, because at that point I lost so much focus that there was no way I was going to win and I had to resign. Armada is just so slippery against Marth, Peach in general always feels like that, but Armada just takes it to another level. He distorts reality and he reaches me when I'm running away, he feels like he's clearly in range and I whiff and get down tilted... EVERY TIME. It's incredible and I really have to go into the lab and find a way to compete with that crazy timing and spacing.

PP-

I was all super nervous and stuff, I don't think I have as much to say about the matches because they were pools. I was really nervous, I got lucky where it counted, my nervous increased my reaction and focus in certain aspects. My powershielding and movement were good, but I ended up trying to mind game instead of react in certain situations and PP owned me for it very thoroughly, lol. I always need to keep reminding myself that I'm not that smart when I play.

I think I kind of sensed his nervousness, too. I'm not sure if it had more to do with the flow of the match or if he felt like I pressured him, but I feel like I sensed something and I started playing more aggressively toward the end of each match. I feel like we both kind of shifted our roles during each match where I played passively and he was cracking my shell and then I started charging for him and he started baiting me out. Excellent Falco, PP. I wouldn't be surprised if he scrapes me next time we play and he's healthy with his stack it up crew behind him. I kind of had every psychological advantage on my side except for being favored to win. I had the crowd, he was sick, and I had the element of surprise since I am a nobody. GG's despite those circumstances though.

Even though my pool had three Falcos in it, they were all really good and gave me more trouble than everyone else, lol.

Mango (Falco)- He shoots less lasers than other Falcos. He basically seemed to play me like Axe except less technical and less vulnerable. He timed his lasers just like Axe would so I started adapting to that, but they were still pretty flawless approaches and my unfamiliarity with him made the matches super hard. It was like playing Forward if I had forgot exactly how he played or something. The only thing that let me keep my composure through the set was just that it was Falco. It was my favorite match-up and it didn't matter if it was the best player in the world playing it. Axe has a lot more muscle in his pressure than Mango, but Mango was just a lot more flexible in his approaches. His angles were just a bit more potent and he was a bit wiser with how he challenged me by the ledge than Axe would be.

G$ was definitely throwing me off the most. The crowd and the cheering wasn't helping, but having someone yelling out how much you suck gets to me, lol. In the future, I may reciprocate this behavior to EC just to show them how it feels and I might even do it angrily, because just thinking about it is irritating me right now. I've never been in a fight once in my life, but I can see myself blowing up if they take it too far.

Mango is the most talented player in the world, to me at least. He is someone that can basically do anything in this game (except play Mewtwo ). Armada is the champ for now though, he earned it.

Against his Fox- NOPE. He tapped me so hard. I went in with a losing mentality and he definitely demonstrated that I was a loser haha. I wasn't prepared for Fox, let alone that monstrosity of a Fox. People said I should have gone M2 from match 1, and they were probably right. I wasn't even thinking of winning at that point, I think I was just waiting to see if he'd make a mistake and when I saw no chance of winning, I acknowledged it. I know it sucks to some people that I don't go all the way, but it's just the way I see the game. Mewtwo would've gotten me better results when my head is messed up, but it wouldn't have won me a game let alone a set with the way he was playing. I'd rather Mango keep that hotness so we have an amazing GF than burn him out trying to crack my defensive M2.

I've made 3-4 stock comebacks plenty of times in my career, the thing is... I do them when I see how it is possible. At this stage of Melee, it should be less surprising that players like M2K, Wobbles, Forward, and myself might resign against prominent players when the probability of winning is highly improbable.

It's like playing SC and trying to win against a supply capped Protoss with 4 bases as a 120 supply Zerg on 2 bases. Possible? I guess, but highly improbable still against someone that knows what they're doing. We've seen comebacks like that in the past, but there is usually a REASON that those comebacks happen.

Well I guess that's enough Johns for the day.

I've got so much more to say, but I guess I'll leave that for Part 3...

lol ragequit

Seriously though maybe we DO watch too much Starcraft. I basically felt the same way against Shroomed and HBox. HBox because I couldn't see a way to win when I managed to lose a stock 25 seconds into the third game, followed by four more b-airs seemingly without any way to retaliate; I honestly had no clue how to win. If I hadn't played him in ANY friendlies until that point I might have 3-0'ed HIM though because he was apparently tryharding his *** off in our friendlies while I was screwing around and trying dumb grab combos. The problem is he learned about 1385081320580 times faster than me so at the end he was 3-stocking me regularly and I had barely improved. Shroomed was a case of "I think I know how to do it but my hands and brain are NOT cooperating." Shroomed is very solid in every area and excellent in a few others and I needed my absolute A-game to contend with him, and demoralized as I was from earlier I did not have access to it, so I was basically free for him hahaha.

This may just be something we have to work on... or buy better headphones lol. Also I think I actually have your ear-buds Taj, someone else's pair found their way into my bag and I only noticed them like two days ago. One of the ears has a little nuclear symbol on it.

He's funny, I like the dude, I just don't like it when the jeering is so... focused against me I suppose. I understand supporting your boy, I can even understand cheering wildly for your boy, I guess I just don't like the personals. Phil and Waffles **** talk is awesome. It's distracting too, but it's not as... insulting I suppose.

It's probably because we're in the same region as them and they have a tendency to say stuff like, "okay that was tight I won't lie" when the person they're rooting against does something pretty cool. Totally different feeling, you can tell they're just trying to hype **** up. Against a lot of other regions all I can think is, "do you have this little confidence in your friend/crewmate/crowd favorite that you have to jump in twenty-nine to one for him to win this match?"

Honestly the day that five people register for ONE spot in a singles bracket, and cheer only for the person who is holding the controller, is the day that I am okay with them using offensive and distracting trash talk to try and make the other guy lose.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Bring AZ to Apex so we can see who stacks it or sucks it louder LOOOOOOL

 

[Niko45]

Let it be known that OTG got up mid-set and shook G down for talking **** to him at the last local lollllllll.

 

[PandaCobo]

It is strange that tier lists are used for melee. And it is also strange that the Melee community hasn't implemented an idea that seems quite natural to do.

I think tier lists are important in showcasing how unbalanced the character choices are, however, tier lists should also show that with practice and technique, balance issues can be overcome.

This is why I think two different tier lists should be implemented.

One of the lists will be a very "statistical" list where based on hard-coded things in the game, the characters will be ranked. For example, things like lag, grab range, power, speed, etc., will factor into this list making it a list that will be more stable and definite. There is nothing you can do to make Ness's grab range like Marth's, so Marth would beat Ness in that category. These kind of comparisons in certain categories would be what this tier list was all about.

Then there should be another tier list that is more subject to change. It will take in all the variables that will come into play. Stages, play-styles, tournament placings, player techniques, etc. So in this tier list, a crappy character like Mewtwo, could rise through the ranks if people started playing him very well, while Mewtwo would probably stay low in the first tier list since he has many things hard-coded in that are working against him. This tier list will be ever-evolving and updated often. It can also be motivation for character communities to work together to raise their character's spot on this list, because it would be entirely possible to do so if people started using the character very well.

The problem with this idea is that we would have to clearly define which factors went into each tier list. Wave-dash length, while a player technique, is still something coded in the game, so that would be a factor in the first tier list (In my opinion). However, a Mewtwo player using the bair more effectively would be a factor of the second tier list, since using the move more effectively still doesn't change the lag time/hitboxes/power/etc. of the move. Certain things like using Mewtwo's side special to pull an opponent through battlefield, would be tricky. It is technically coded in the game, but it is essentially a technique developed by a player. Where would we put that? In list 1 or list 2?

There are probably many problems with attempting to do this, but if it could be done well, I think it would help solve a lot of problems with Tier Lists in the community. I know that I find it atrocious that Luigi is below Mario. Having the second tier list be more malleable and based on player skill with that character, makes it possible for the most dedicated players to help advance and evolve their character to get him/her higher on tier list 2.

So what do you guys think? Is this idea possible and perhaps the right way to go, or is it a stupid idea that could never be done correctly?

i think is idea is brilliant. Because mu aren't everything. So basing it in separate tiers would make people choose characters on what they like not just top tier.

 

[ItalianStallion]

I have a lot of thoughts to say on stuff you have said Taj(Mostly Mewtwo stuff), but at the moment, I will just say this:

Your Mewtwo in the sets against armada was very professional and clean. Definitely some of the best footage of you. I know how hard it can be to approach a Peach with Mewtwo when they have superb defense(I play PandaCobo's Peach), and the fact that you were getting through Armada's cracks just shows how far you have taken the character. I applaud you sir.

:mewtwo:TAJ:mewtwo:

 

[straight8]

Taj that post was amazing.

And if at apex someone is **** talking you right in their ear, i will ****ing light them up right there. that **** isnt even funny.

But i seriously just sat with my head in my hands when i was watching your match vs armada. that match is just terrible, especially against armadas peach, who just controls and corners you so hard. it made me sad knowing that there was nothing you could do besides gimmicks to beat him. I think your marth can beat him though, if not next time, the time after that.

also g$ can suck my ****

 

[Niko45]

G$ is a pretty nice guy tho the **** talk kinda just has a life of its own. Idk, I guess I'm just used to it but I can def see why it would bother people who aren't. First couple of times I got that treatment I was definitely pissed. I also think there's a big difference between popping off in draft crews at our locals or something and popping off during winners semis of a major tournament. It was definitely inappropriate.

 

[Max?]

I was just trolling G because I had just beaten him in bracket and he was trying to troll me while watching my following set. I wasn't gonna tolerate that.

 

[Shadow Huan]

@ taj: my teams partner and current rival Life have a saying when something janky happens while we're playing... "i don't agree with that"

i said that several times while watching the 3rd round of winners finals. describing armada's spacing as "reality warping" is very fitting.

 

[forward]

I love getting shoutouts from Taj <3

 

[Wenbobular]

Man I love G$'s trash talk ... if I was getting trash talked I'd probably lose due to bursting out laughing than anything else

 

[Jim Morrison]

Still looking forward to part 3 <3

 

[Taj278]

Self-Efficacy and Pride

Sorry for the long break. I've actually had many posts typed up, but I've deleted all of them, mostly because I've been in a pretty somber mood and I think they reflected that. I'm also pretty sure many people would have taken my posts the wrong way anyway, so I just refrained from posting in general. I guess that habit of mine is why I have so few posts in general. I keep trying to remind myself that this is just my small corner of the internet that probably only a handful of people even read and I shouldn't really care what I say here, but name dropping always has its consequences.

Apex is coming up, and unless I decide to further perpetuate my debt, or come across some loot, I'm not going to be attending this year. Unless I happen to get random weekends off of work and a carpool, I'm probably not going to any OoS tournaments for a while until I get my life on track.

I had some reflections of part 3 I was going to post, but instead I'll just throw them into another aspect of pro-gaming psychology I've been thinking about,

Self-Efficacy and Pride

Self-efficacy is the individual's capacity for accomplishing a goal or task. It is essentially linked with a person's self-confidence and the positive connotation of pride.

I took pride in being the best Mewtwo player, I was proud of myself in 06-07, and I took pride in my game sense and game knowledge. For the last four years, most people probably considered me a mediocre player. (Maybe even bad in the competitive sense) During the Mango era, all of a sudden my style that some people called unique and cool is now being called gay and campy. I hadn't placed top 5 at a major tournament in four years either. I was a good player when it was convenient for the people that beat me, otherwise I was essentially just that Mewtwo player.

It is easy to recognize when people don't want to lose. It is also easy to ignore when people don't want to win. In competition, you don't want to empathize with anyone. Unfortunately, I still tend to empathize with people when I sense that they're distraught. It throws me off; it makes me uncomfortable, probably because of my generally good nature. When people get frustrated, especially over these last couple of years, it just starts taking it's toll on me more and more, and even if they're not angry at me, it still creates a negative environment that makes it hard to have fun. (A player's actions, even if directed toward themselves, can have an effect on those around them.)

I'm really impressionable. If I'm trying to have fun and it just takes one display of frustration, or one negative comment, and I'm often silent and solemn for the rest of the day.

There's a reason why a lot of people love playing with Axe. He is the embodiment of positive reinforcement. Even if you're the most horrible player on the planet, his sandbagging makes you feel like you're always a top 10 player sometimes. He will almost always have something encouraging and positive to say. He's so enthusiastic, that even if you know that it's not REALLY that impressive, the overall mood of your session is just... better. It's just nice being acknowledged for something every once in a while, and realistically it's why a lot of us want to become famous players. The acknowledgement and respect feels good. Even if you're not the best player in the world it's easier to listen to what you did right and watch videos of yourself winning than hear how bad you are and get linked videos of you getting *****.

The time I've spent with Axe made me want to promote more positive smash experiences with other people, but unfortunately my best intentions have recently back-fired on me as I expressed my point of view to someone that has a habit of venting their frustrations while playing. Coupled with my extended depression, I just haven't been in the bestest of moods to play much of anything lately.

I'm not completely innocent to the effects of pride and commitment either. For most of my smash career, my pride and self-efficacy were battling against my desire to be meek and understanding. I wanted to cherish the friendships and connections that I have made form SSBM and just enjoy playing the game. However, I always have a standard of excellence that I've strived to uphold for those observing me. Because of my insecurities, I've deluded myself into playing selectively.

Funnily enough, this attitude is what got me third at Genesis 2, but it is also possible it is why I only got third. I didn't go to the tournament wanting or expecting to win. I wanted to talk to people, enjoy the experience, watch Wobbles and Axe take top 5, and relive the hype from the Armada and Mango rivalry.

My goals as a competitor were really simple. Beat every Falco, win against a top 5 Falcon, and make it out of pools. I reached all the goals I had created, but in retrospect, I feel like having too much pride in anything is double edged. I had so much pride in being able to win against Falco that I didn't even consider losing to be an option until relatively recently.

You get the questions like, "What happens if I lose?" "How do I take the criticism?" You're put into a position where you're encouraged to make excuses, be salty, or be humbled to the point where you may not recover, and that matchup becomes a problem for you.

Basically, it can cause a slump.

The only answer to these problems as a man with an ego that doesn't want to show it is just to embrace the humility and work through it. Some of the worst smash moments of my life are still hindering my progress in reaching my last goal as a professional player. I could lose to Falcos and ICs despite them being my best matchups, and the public backlash would sting, but it won't affect my understanding of the match-up more than what I would need to refine it.

My ego isn't so large that I NEED to be the best. I'm not conceited enough to think that I have to piss and moan, whine and complain, anytime that I lose. I'm better than that, and I wish other people were, too. I understand that it hurts to make mistakes, it hurts to lose in anything that you put personal stake in, and I don't want to say that it's wrong to feel that way. I want to win my own way, with my own passion, through my own painful mistakes, without compromising my integrity.

I want to be the best I can be at what I do, if I'm the best at it, that's good too. Being the greatest ever can be a poisoning goal to those around you, because your development may not be satisfactory due to... the existence of someone else on the planet that is better than you. Make realistic goals for yourself, acknowledge that you'll make mistakes and adjust your play around those mistakes until they're corrected. Trying to force mistakes down under stress seems to result in destructive behavior.

I wish I could play in tournament the way I do in friendlies, but when I watch my videos... I'm stiff and I'm messing up tons of inputs until I gain a huge momentum swing and I start feeling myself. :D

I would apologize for the length on this one, but lol it's in the Mewtwo forums so you're already bored.

I have a few more things I want to go into detail on later. I'll try not to wait as long this time.

Let me know what you three people that read this think about this post and about the impact of branding players as gay, ragers, baddies, and other negative generalizations has had on the smash community and your general smashfests.

This bothers me.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

The negative generalizations really depends upon your familiarity with someone. Myself and my roommate are constantly taking cracks at many of my short comings or blowing them out of proportion. I honestly do not mind because we both understand them to be out of fun, but when it comes to the same thing with game styles, its harder to ignore.

And many times the matches start out fun, but quickly he gets irritated with something going on. Either from his own mistakes, me seemingly doing something over and over again, or some issue with the game. It gets to the point you tell he's fed up with the game, but keeps playing in erratic ways. Quitting out of matches after only like two stocks, getting a single kill on his 4th stock and going for an SD to finish the match (even at 0%), camping platforms, resorting to simply sitting there, or spamming smashes. He's responsibly technical, yet when he gets in that mood he gives up trying at all and I do not really feel like playing anymore.

So yeah, I know what you mean by others having an impact on how you feel like playing. I notice similar things to other people, but its easier to keep up a cheery attitude when someone is still trying and all you have to do is just make fun of all your mistakes, even forced once. Laugh at the good stuff people pull off on you. But, when someone gets really irritated or w/e it becomes seriousness and its harder to do anything but stay quiet. I don't rage @ or berate other people, I just get annoyed at there attitude.

The negative generalizations... I do not want them to happen, but it does. I am not entirely sure why people have to resort to that sort of stuff. I can agree that among friends, its easy to see the fun and not be bothered by the negativism. Too often its done out of hype/fun and it still has repercussions on someone.