Q&A Mewtwo Philosophy - Q&A Ask Away

Which topic would you like to discuss?

  • Analyzing your opponent

    Votes: 38 58.5%
  • What is a gimmick?

    Votes: 27 41.5%

  • Total voters
    65

Taj278

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#1
Well it's late and I'm bored, so I feel like making a thread about discussing the Mewtwo universe. The psychology, the nature, the reality of what makes us Mewtwo players.

There are many questions I have, for not only myself, but everyone that enjoys playing Mewtwo despite some of the frustration that comes along with playing such a vulnerable character with very few options that require seemingly pinpoint accuracy, timing, and awareness.

The first question I want to ask isn't necessarily why do you play Mewtwo, but how? By "how" I mean do you play him with a goal in mind? Do you play him as an excuse? Do you play with the conviction of him being a solid character? Pride?

I've expressed before, and I think most of us agree, that Mewtwo should at the very least be below G&W on the tier list. Having played with M2K recently I had forgotten about one of my earlier ideas of making Mewtwo more of a harass and attrition character. By that, I mean beating some of the worse characters very safely by time out. With this mindset, Mewtwo can easily beat out all of bottom tier with the Jigglypuff planking mentality and play to refuse giving up lead to bottom and low tiers.

Answering my own question, I used to play Mewtwo in tourney as kind of an excuse, but at the same time I had a feeling that I would be able to beat the majority of people with Mewtwo just because I'd be coming at them with a huge bag full of tricks that they just weren't prepared for physically (SHFFLs on M2's shield, and M2 Combos) and mentally (How to DI, preconceptions, things that they thought worked on their scrub M2 friends.)

I was fortunate enough to play with some of the finest players in the country like Forward and Wobbles, very smart players that can really pinpoint and punish habits, and find consistent ways to seal a lot of my options and tricks. Because they were so good at making my Mewtwo feel like garbage despite actually performing decently against them, I discovered small consistencies that allowed me to combine everything that people weren't ready for with new tricks to make my weaknesses air tight and difficult to punish.

As I'm getting older, and new players are striving to prove themselves, I'm also starting to refine my strengths and unfortunately, my weaknesses are even more glaring. Some characters that I used to think I had a handle on were really just carried by their inherent character attributes and my individual prowess at the time. Specifically, my Marth and Fox can't keep up with the technical skill that many people have improved over time, and I hit a wall. However, my strengths are becoming more apparent the more I play Mewtwo, and even the first time I messed around with Sheik in a while.

I'll post more thoughts on this another night. PC :D
 

Taj278

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#3
That's a good question, but there are "Mewtwos" that exist in several other competitive games as well. You can look at Mewtwo as an underused tool that people may not be familiar with fighting. Think of Mewtwo as the Japanese sickle and chain, a mid range weapon that appears to be more difficult to deal with initially, but as you gain experience in understanding the path of the weapon it becomes less frightening.

RTS games don't always have an underused race, but they do have underused units. In Starcraft there are plenty of underused/weak units, but there have been a few professional matches where underused units played a huge role in turning matches. A few examples of this are Zerg Queens, Protoss Dark Templar, Protoss Shield Batteries, and Terran Ghosts. Some examples of "worthless" units would be Protoss Scouts and Zerg Devourers.

Most people like using specific characters because they're cool, or they enjoyed the characters from another game. The more I think about why I play Mewtwo, the more I realize that despite how terrible of a character he is, Mewtwo is probably the character that fits my particular skill sets the most. Mewtwo is a character that is very momentum heavy, can be very evasive when I need time to think, and allows me to read and react (Yes, I said read) freely as I choose to hit and run or stay in the pocket to continue linking hits. At this present time, I think that Sheik would be a good main for me with my present mindset. Sheik is a very good character at holding momentum, invulnerable recoveries, and you can have a very counter oriented playstyle. I feel like I can't quite do it as well with my Marth right now, but it may be worth looking back into playing Sheik to solve some of my major match-up problems.
 

SDC

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#4
From reading this, I really do think you should main mewtwo, but CP Sheik for Mewtwo's impossible matchups like Captain Falcon. I've been looking for a more reliable CP to CF, and right now my mains: Jiggz, Mewtwo, Ganon, maybe doc/sheik, are only ok against CF. Mewtwo gets destroyed by CF, Ganon loses to CF (yes he does), and my jiggz is only ok against CF. This is why I really do want to learn how to correctly use sheik, just for CF alone.

But otherwise I use mewtwo because I genuinely like the character. He's always been my favorite character from pokemon, and now that I've actually acquired some skill with the character I genuinely like how he plays. I like that he requires patience, intelligence, calm-mindedness. This, along with his vast weaknesses as a character in this game, make him a challenge. A challenge is always fun, thrilling, compelling.

To win with mewtwo you have to play smarter, IE, better, then your opponent. That is a very intriguing challenge.
 

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
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#6
LMAO, ill post some real insight after I sort through some music.

****in Vman lol
<3

Mewtwo has character flaws that are pretty easy to exploit. If you can mask those and use his strengths well you can compete. High levels of execution coupled with a little bit of innovation plus a lil bit of a swagger is pretty much equals a top tier mewtwo.
 

Taj278

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#8
Continuing where I left off from last night, I don't think Mewtwo is necessarily my best character. I think that the playstyle that I've created with Mewtwo kind of focuses all of my strengths and helps me hide some of my weaknesses. Kind of like the armor that helped Mewtwo focus his power in the MOVIE! :chuckle:

But in all seriousness, where I feel like I would have lost had I played Marth, my Mewtwo gave me a lot of second chances at tournaments. Off the top of my head, winning against The King at NCT2, Omar at AZOne, Chu Dat at one of Ken's Biweeklies, Plank at Pound 2, and second round pools at Pound 4 against Adam and PKM Vodka. A lot of that success just came from not knowing the match-ups, but it also came from the required level of focus I need when I play Mewtwo. What's weird is that Mewtwo is so fragile, but at the same time, he is quite resilient.

Part of what's been irritating me when I play Marth is how EASILY and hard I get punished when I mess up and the probability of me getting shine spiked against someone I'm not familiar with is instantly 50% or more. If anyone knows me personally, they know I have TERRIBLE luck when it comes to RNG and when it comes to gambling, I'm sure to lose. Fox shines me, and that's it... that's my stock. I ledge hop neutral air, Sheik CC down smashes... that's it. I'm forced to the stage and I get down air > down aired or down smashed.

When I play Mewtwo, I don't get chain thrown by Sheik, I can recover from the bottom of the stage and relatively safely, I do get owned by easy up smashes and up throw up airs, but so does Marth. Marth is a better character, and I on average would perform better with Marth, but with Mewtwo the play styles are radically different.

I was joking with Tai about Marth's recovery sucking and how Mewtwo would recover from all of those situations because Mewtwo is ALWAYS being forced to recover. :p That's what makes Mewtwo so unique though. My playstyle basically forces me to spend my stocks finding ways inside of everyone's wall of gay while evading their **** instead of the other way around. I can spend my entire stock getting destroyed, but when I finally land that grab/tilt/baby shadowball, I turn that penny into a dime, into a quarter, into a buck until I get Benjies. If anyone has been following Hajime no Ippo's manga, Mewtwo is just like Ippo vs. Woli. You set your goals each stock and scratch once, scratch him five times, then go for the KO.

My best strengths are response inhibition, quick decision making, and reaction. Mewtwo just forces me to use them and allows me to rest during the long matches with ledge stalls and defensive teleports away. Mewtwo can't be cornered very easily, and when you're cornered that's where you can turn things around as long as you stay flexible and focused. When you lose focus, you make those critical errors like letting them read your teleport, your wavedash >tilts, and your attempted ledge sweet spots. Because I don't make those errors often, it feels like Mewtwo is very forgiving and sturdy despite not being able to obliterate people with 4 stocks like Marth. Winning a 2 stock low percentage game as Mewtwo now is almost comparable to the same feeling as a 3 stock game with Marth. It really doesn't matter if you win by 1 stock or 1% when the time runs out if you're the one in control of the match start to finish.

I don't think I'm going to main Sheik right now based off of an epiphany, and I don't think I'll take my Marth to Apex Singles unless requested, but I'm definitely going to try to show you why I'm the best at what I do and right now, that happens to be Mewtwo.

My question for all of you Mewtwo players:

Would you have kept playing Mewtwo if he was even WORSE than he is now?

Silly question, I know, but what if Mewtwo was even less polished (lol) and statistically worse than Kirby and Pichu combined? Shadow balls were as laggy as PK Fire, Mewtwo had a Zelda standing grab, a Bowser jump speed, and teleport only went straight up. Obviously this isn't the case, but if it were this obvious that Mewtwo was an unfinished and unplayable character at any competitive level, would you still play him?
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

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#11
really cool thread here tai. I think partly why some people are amazing with low tier or who ever is because the player will play as way and they(hopefully) will choose the chartcer who fits correctly. like take axe as pikachu he can beat mango will pikachu, fox is way better than pikachu right? shouldn't axe be able to learn fox a little more and be even better than his pikachu?

No because fox isn't pikachu, axe isn't based off of the things fox is. pikachu is perfect for axe and is like the perfect sizee for this cup. like me, I play just as much marth as pichu and this is my order of my best charcters.

pichu
falco
ice climbers
marth
puff
sheik

the last 3 can be mised up in any order really. but you can see my point pichu is perfect for me, m2 is perfect for you and axe is perfect for pikachu.

or h-box is perfect for puff. we all have our different ways to play.
 

Umbreon

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#12
I guess I should post in here too since I can relate so very well. This is mostly directed at you Tony. I started Mewtwo as a fun character back in 2002 before I ever went to a tournament. At first I thought Mewtwo was awesome since I had no experience at the character and had no difficulty beating other players in my very local area (it's hard to travel when you're 15). I attended my first tournament january 2nd 2004 and attended a good 15 or so tournaments in that year and suddenly found myself under the title of best mewtwo back when it wasn't worth anything but an ego boost.

I started to examine mewtwo as a competitive player would. I found rather quickly that mewtwo has no answers for several simple tactics from almost every character in the game. my favorite examples come from samus and jigglypuff. mewtwo has absolutely no answer to a samus that walks at him doing tip ftilt while holding down for the auto CC. it simply isn't in the character to beat that tactic. I also started counterpicking other mewtwos with jigglypuff, where I'd simply crouch and wait. dsmash, SB, dair are all very easy to see coming and block. mewtwo has to attack with dtilt, at which point I rest his tail for auto-bad DI. While I found many things like this, I continued to play the character, often in tournament and several times in finals sets. I said nothing.

After some time I got a name for myself in the tournament scene. I made many friends with top end players and played with them often and did much better against them than my usual play style would indicate. I was told many, many times that other players were better than me even if I performed better against them. I remember in 2005 when I beat both Hugs and Zelgadis 2-0 in tournament, Hugs told me that he felt Zelgadis was the better Fox player even though Hugs had just beaten him. This happened to me constantly and all the time. However well I beat Azen's Marth with Zelda or Ken in Roy dittos or ChuDat's Kirby with Ness or NEO in Zelda vs Roy, I was never able to keep up with those players as Mewtwo despite being equally good at the character. At this point I had to ask, is Mewtwo really that much worse than Zelda? My final conclusion is that yes, Mewtwo is that much worse than Zelda simply because Zelda only loses outright to a couple tactics and not several dozen that Mewtwo does. Samus ftilt and all.

I approached Azen with this in relation to his MLG winning style at the time. I realized from watching Azen that he simply recycles strategies that are incredibly hard to beat. You have to be MUCH MUCH better than Azen to be successful against his playstyle just to get around his simple and spammable strategies. Watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-dTnh6sHbc

You'll notice that despite Chu being obviously better at a relatively equal character and on his best stage, Azen can continually get away with spamming SH knee and Chu has to be substantially better than Azen to beat it. It came to me that most players do this recycling to some degree and that Azen is just the primary example. But what it showed me is that Mewtwo is on the other end of that recycled and seemingly overpowered strategy pretty much every time. This led me to the conclusion that the opponents I were beating I must have been substantially better than at the time. This was only reinforced by my other experience in low tiers. If Ken was so much better than me as a player and played Roy 2nd only to Marth, why was I able to beat him in dittos? Why couldn't I perform as well as Mewtwo? Because I'd have to substantially outplay him as Mewtwo, and I can't drastically outplay Ken. And guess what Tony, remember way back forever ago in like Feb 2006 at Pound when I played you in Mewtwo dittos and we went 1-1? I didn't have to outplay you to tie you, and vice versa. At every subsequent tournament you've been to, you've also had to outplay things like Jigglypuff crouching or Samus ftilt tip. You must have had to outplay them very badly, because they exist and this character does not have the tools for them.

---

I played Mewtwo as a fun character. Even when labeled the best with him, Mewtwo was never in my 10 best characters. I played him the same reason I continue to play Zelda in that I just liked the characters from their respective games. I stopped playing Mewtwo the day I played you in 2006 and I haven't played the character since.
 

Taj278

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#13
Thanks for posting that, because I can understand where you're coming from in a lot of ways. I know that Hugo can sometimes be pretty harsh to players that he's unfamiliar with and treat them a little coldly. I like Hugo and all, but he can be a bit unsportsmanlike.

I think your post really brings up another good point about how and why I've been playing Mewtwo. A lot of the people I've ever played with really reinforced my self-confidence with the characters I played in the past, and most people really encouraged Mewtwo. I remember when you made that post, seemingly in frustration, about all of the tactics that every character could perform to beat Mewtwo. At the time, I had a very positive outlook on Mewtwo's capabilities and so I think my self-efficacy really helped carry me through a lot of the walls that other characters were able to create for Mewtwo. My friends just kept encouraging me, telling me that I'll figure a way around it, because they thought I was a good player, and that's even part of the reason I'm playing again now. I don't think I would be playing Melee again if it wasn't for Axe, he really helped make the game fun again. (That and Tai showing me the Black Mewtwo which increases my power over 9000%.)

If you remember watching that popular match of Forward vs. me on FD, that match was the by product of me attempting to shatter all of those strategies that supposedly beat Mewtwo. I told Forward and Wobbles many of the strategies to use to beat Mewtwo and even though Forward was always at a higher level, I still managed to overcome each obstacle with something small, because most of those strategies had holes that Mewtwo could still crack.

Yes, I had to outplay the tactic, but then because I outplayed the tactic, they had to outplay ME again. Hell, I even had to pseudo-solve M2K's Jigglypuff Planking strategy last week. It wasn't the prettiest solution, but it worked well enough to not let him 4 stock me. It is powerful enough to beat me in a tourney match, but it was powerful enough to beat Axe and Forward's legitimate characters, too. Even if their characters had more options, I don't think I needed to be substantially better than them to compete against them. My Mewtwo still does well against everyone except for Forward for the most part, mostly because Forward rapes me nowadays, he just knows how I work on a personal level. Just because options are limited, doesn't mean that it is impossible to compete, if that were the case, basketball would be even drier than it is today. If height was so overpowered, why are guards leading the league since Jordan? Steve Nash winning league MVP.

In Starcraft you have limited options as Zerg as race, because of the way they work, but the game itself lets you stretch those options in **** near limitless ways. Melee isn't as flexible as an RTS, but it is definitely more flexible than traditional fighters, and I've rarely felt that I've lost as Mewtwo against something like a simple and cheesy tactic because it was my character. I believe I lost because I wasn't good enough to see it and stop it when it counted. I have lost matches to simple and cheesy tactics executed by great players, but there's nothing wrong with simple and effective, I **** people here with my 2004 Falco and even gave Axe a lot of trouble for a while despite being a weaker player with less technical options.

I think in that specific match you linked, Chu Dat lost focus the last two stocks, ESPECIALLY the last stock. There may have been a lot going on behind the scenes there that I'm not aware of, but I noticed that he didn't aggressively use his invincibility like he usually does to create that opening on Azen, he didn't read that critical jab when it connected, and his reaction seemed to dull a bit as he kept letting himself get clipped by forward B on his short hops when I thought he was able to read them at that point.

I think my main point in all of this is that this game is such a happy accident that even the worthless characters we chose (Zelda and M2) could still be played because of the inherent depth of this game. There's a reason why my Mewtwo is effective and Axe's Pikachu is effective, but we don't see some player with Axe's skill level running around with Pichu/Kirby/Ness/Yoshi in tourney. We see mid level Bowsers, we used to have a high level Roy like NEO, high level Marios, DKs, whether main or secondary, and for a game like this, I think that is acceptable.
 

Umbreon

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#15
yeah, I'm not trying to slam your character choice or anything. I think I have more respect for you as a player than your other little fanboys do just because I understand exactly how hard your matches are past "omg he won with mewtwo".

and lately I have also been playing almost only sheik. something about that character just seems to reward innovation that I really appreciate.
 

Taj278

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#16
Ah, thank you, sir. :D It has been pretty uncommon for me to be praised as a player more than my execution with Mewtwo. Especially since I got 4 stocked by Silent Spectre at Mango Juice. :(
 

Taj278

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#17
Can Mewtwo compete on the world stage?

I think that is my final goal as far as competitive melee is concerned. Despite never accomplishing what I wanted as a player, I still feel obligated toward my Mewtwo fans to give them that much. The most compliment I receive about my Mewtwo is how much better it is than in the videos, and is partially due to me just not having many match videos recorded.

I'm confirmed in going to APEX right now and I have a lot of work to do if I want to even make it to bracket with Mewtwo, and I think this will be my last cross continental tourney for a long time.

I'll have to solve the good Fox match-up if I want to have a chance, and I remember a bit of how Jman completely dismantled my Mewtwo in some GENESIS friendlies, so that's going to be pretty tough. I'm doing some cognitive training right now, which should help. If I go into each match with the right mentality and focus, I should be able to execute everything I need to win. Specifically, I need to improve my edgeguarding and inhibitions as Jman was able to see through a lot of my tactics and maintained perfect control of his aerials and spacing.

I'm dedicating my $500+ trip to all of you guys that supported and encouraged me by going Mewtwo exclusively (except in doubles). Don't blame me if I magically make it to grand finals and bust out my Marth against Mango's Jiggs though. I got a score to settle. :D
 

Umbreon

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#18
if we're going to talk philosophy, you should focus on winning for yourself and not your fanbase. all your fanbase wants to see is "taj got 7th with only mewtwo at apex!". I've been there, being out of practice, working hard to come back and the victory feels empty. nothing really ever replaces that self-drive to perform under pressure and it clearly shows when a player loses it.
 

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
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#20
fox lol, keep it simple and he rapes.

thats a tough one. I will say good luck.

you might have to try some extreme ledge stalling (not really for fox) but against some other characters.
 

BunBun

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#21
This thread is an amazing read. All low tier mains really need to read it and do some thinking about what they honestly expect from their character.

I really want to see you do a lot of work as Mewtwo, but switching characters at large tournaments for certain matches is almost required now. I think that your fans would be happier the better you placed, no matter what character you use.

Do it for yourself, no matter what you choose.
 

The Prophet_

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#24
I like experimenting with the bad situations M2 is in and trying to figure a way how they are good and how I can make good out of the bad situations.

Example: Falcon rapes the ssshht out of me all of a sudden and takes me to 60%something percent by Dair Nair Uair Uair Fair.
-Mewtwo has nothing like this, he can't really follow up from to many attacks.

If I want to catch up, my pressure on them would have to be less consistant than what they imposed on me and this is because of their use of options after options that they can do...Dair Nair Uair Uair Fair, these options follow up nicely after eachother. But because Mewtwo's pressure has to be less consistant, there is uncertainty in the mind of the other player as when you will put pressure so they will most likely assert pressure to try and counter the constant uncertainty they are feeling when playing Mewtwo.

All in all, Mewtwo to me requires a deep understanding psyche of how players will feel and want to do under uncertainty.
---------
It is by this nature that I play him and how I play him. I like how Mewtwo has to be played different for the most part. =)
 

t3h Icy

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#25
This is a really nice thread Taj. =)

I think a lot of lower tiers have untapped potential only because nobody uses them, but that much is obvious. One of the main reasons why low-tier players beat certain people (besides with raw skill) is the lack of match-up knowledge, and supposedly, that character can move up in the tier list if a player of that character is winning (such as Axe's recent success with Pikachu at Genesis and Pound 4). However, once other players figure out how to deal with that character, they go back down a few spots and find a solid home. Many characters have done this once their potential was unleashed such as ICs and even after nearly a decade, there are still characters that never have been (most of the current low tiers). I feel the current hot character is Jigglypuff that has only recently been discovered what she's fully capable of, but we're still in the phase of the majority of players not knowing what to do against her.

You're definitely the top Mewtwo and he should definitely be at least a few spots higher in the tier list, but since there are only a few other notable Mewtwos and aren't at your level (Rare Candies), Mewtwo is still viewed as a completely horrible character. I would love to see you get far with Mewtwo at Apex. <3

I think a lot of people would also die to see your Mewtwo vs Armada. =D
 

AXE 09

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#33
Reading this thread has really had me thinking about a lot of things. The main question in the OP made me think a lot, which was "Why do you play Mewtwo?"

I know Pikachu's not the same, but I can relate to everything said in this thread because he is also a lower tier character with obvious flaws. So why don't I just pick Fox and end up with much greater results? Why don't all Mewtwo mains just pick Sheik and **** twice as hard?

Most of the answers I've heard were simply just because you like the character. Of course, if one of your facorite pokemon is Mewtwo and he is in a video game, you will most likely play him. This is mostly the reason why I picked him as my character to start with, but there are many reasons why I decided to stay with him even after I learned all about advanced moves, the tier list, etc.

One thing that most Melee players cannot wrap their heads around is that a low tier character can be good. I hate how most of the Melee community will just look at the tier list and pick a high/top tier character because they're "good characters".

From my experience, it is much easier to get at a decent skill level with a higher tier character than it is for a lower tier one. You could probably pick a high tier character and be considered a good player within a few months. A low tier character would most likely take even longer. BUT, playing low tier characters has it advantages that many people might not have known of because they've never given those characters a chance. And for those who HAVE given them a chance, they quit the characters much too early and never reach the point at which will give you an advantage.

Yes, playing Pikachu was very hard at first and I did want to stop playing him many times. But all it really required was patience. After playing the little guy for like 2 years, I finally felt like I understood how low tier characters work, and most people who play this game have no idea.

Every character in the game his his/her own strengths, and you must use those strengths to cover up for their weaknesses. The more you play that certain character, the better you will be at using those strengths. After playing Pikachu for so long, I came to a point where people would tell me that my character had no weaknesses. Pikachu definitely does have a lot of weaknesses, but I guess I was able to cover up my weaknesses so well that it seemed so flawless to them. The more I play Pikachu, the less apparent my weaknesses become, thus making it seem like Pikachu is a good character.

People say Fox is a good character. I think this is because he does not have nearly as many weaknesses as Pikachu or Mewtwo does. However, Fox still does have weaknesses. Every character does. It all just depends on how well you are able to cover up those weaknesses with your strengths. The lower tier of the character, the more weaknesses that character has, which means you will have to play those characters for a longer amount of time to learn how to cover those up. When you reach a certain point with your character, it will seem like it's impossible to defeat, no matter which character you choose.

Taj is the prime example of taking his mewtwo to the furthest level. Honestly I feel like it's much harder to fight than almost every Fox/Marth/Sheik/Falco I've ever faught. But Mewtwo is a bad character! Why wouldn't it be harder to fight the high tier characters that so many people play?

I think this is because Taj has played Mewtwo so much and knows his character so well, he is able to cover up so many of his weaknesses with his greatest strengths. However, even as great as his Mewtwo is, it can still get even better than it is now. Everyone can get better with any character. I know V3ctorman is going to prove it too with his Yoshi, and he is already at a very high level with his Mewtwo.



I really feel like not many people have given enough attention to low/bottom tier characters. They can just see the weaknesses that the character has and it is too much to bear for a long period of time. However, once you get past those weaknesses, you can focus on strengths, and I KNOW that every character has strengths that have not been looked into yet, ESPECIALLY for low tiers. I know that I have found so many strenghts that Pikachu has that was unknown, and I know that I have turned him into a great character with my playstyle. It was extremely hard dealing with his weaknesses, but now I have a huge advantage with my character that many people don't even know about. EVERYBODY and EVERY character is capable of this, you just need to have the dedication and patience. If you can be dedicated to your character for long enough, you will find strengths in your character and find that you can make him even more frightening than the best top tiers. Soon enough, I will prove this with Pikachu.
 

Taj278

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#34
Great post, Axe. :D I know first hand how difficult it is to find Pikachu's weakness. I won't cover too many of them here, but you definitely cover them by using Pikachu's strong presence with quick L-cancels and covering yourself with Up airs that are incredibly difficult to punish. You wouldn't know Pikachu's weaknesses from watching Axe play and every opening you thought was legit, turns out to be your next lost stock.

And maybe when I'm feeling a little better I'll talk about my ideas of how a character SHOULD move up on the tier list and observing most people's general understanding of how character strengths and player performance affect a character moving up and down. Someone has to lose, but should there always be a bottom tier if everyone can compete? If you made a tier list for rock paper scissors, wouldn't rock be top tier? Think about it. :)
 

S l o X

Smash Champion
Joined
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Messages
2,838
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bridgeport, ct
#35
I love Arizona and all its players. (:

I learned a lot from reading this thread, even though I had nothing to do with it and found it randomly.

Fox is a character that, from the start, has had a ton of good players to represent him and take him further into his own metagame. If Mewtwo, Yoshi or Pikachu had these characters , do you feel they would be a LOT higher on the tier list?

I do, for obvious reasons. One of them being that the strengths that haven't been shown for these characters would be exploited. Newer players would help figure out the 'top tiers' weaknesses /strategies to get over the bumps and others would learn from each other. The characters themselves have a ton of potential but when you limit the character to the number of people playing them, then you don't get anywhere. Almost every smasher sees lower tiers as having two good moves or whatever, and not being able to be used in even semi-high level play, mostly because when people think of these characters they only think of there weaknesses. Once there are people (Taj, Axe, Iori, Cosmo at this point in time) who can properly represent a lower tier character, then we get to see that these weaknesses can be overcome with the hidden strengths of each of these characters.

or maybe i'm just ranting nonsense. I really enjoyed reading everyone's posts and have been thoroughly informed about a number of things. Good luck at APEX Taj.
 

Taj278

TIME TO GET PAID!
GRimer
Joined
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#36
Time to continue my random rambles. :)

Great post, Slox, (Thanks,btw) you bring up an excellent point about what I and I believe others would call, a talent pool. I remember watching a lecture on youtube from the Starcraft class at UC Berkley, and the professor asked the question... how many of you play Terran, because of Boxer? Half the class raised their hand. Aside from finding the race that best fits their style, people also have to be inspired to do so, intrinsically and extrinsically. A lot of Marth players flooded the scene because of Ken and Azen, Fox players because of Shined Blind, Isai's Falcon, and Falco players because of PC Chris.

Ken and Azen had wildly different styles with their Marths, but they were both very effective. You could even say that both also had universal strategies that many people could imitate and so the collective pool of knowledge that fans and players built upon helped their character flourish and develop greatly. The important thing to notice, though, is that the inherent character traits of Marth, Fox, and Falco made them very attractive without even being aware of their existing metagame and capabilities.

Falcon took a bit more time to become popular as the general hardcore population became more proficient with their control and understanding of the game. Isai was just years ahead in technique. The recent waves of Falcon mains and secondaries is evidence of that. At one point, everyone had a pocket Fox. Now, everyone may not have a Falcon to use for counter-picks, but they have one for crazy Falcon dittos and friendlies.

Character talent pools and their placement on a tier-list have a lot in common. Ice Climbers used to be low tier until the domination of Chu Dat, and their placement was solidified from the efforts of their devote community. The efforts of Wobbles, Nealdt, Azn_Lep, Meep, Fly Amanita, Trail, and several other players helped change the opinions of the majority about the placement of a supposedly weak character.

Because the majority of players are quite apprehensive about accepting the success of an individual as nothing short of an anomaly, there needs to be success being emulated across the board. The fastest way to do this is to share knowledge, and the fastest way to share knowledge is to have more people sharing it, experimenting, and refining that knowledge.

The other day, I was joking with Axe and Tai about going back into time and ****** with Pikachu/Mewtwo/Pichu and chain grabbing Fox, ****** Sheiks, and obliterating players to heavily distort everyone's perceptions of the good characters. OR, we could play some top tiers and convince everyone to ban Sheik/Fox/Whatever, because they're SOOOO cheap and we 4 stock everyone SOOOO easily. :p

If Yoshi's current metagame was being applied in 2004-2005, I could definitely see Yoshi being "grandfathered" into low/mid tier like he used to be. The lack of talent pool for the low and bottom tiers is definitely showing, especially with Samus' placement on the tier-list. Wes quitting and HugS taking a Brawl hiatus definitely hurt Samus' placement on the tier list even though I think Samus is still a very solid high tier character. Difficult to play, but has a lot of the necessary tools to compete with the majority of viable characters. And all that would need to be done to appease me is to move her into the High Tier category without actually replacing anyone. Why can't there be 8 top tier or 10 high tier characters if multiple players seem to obliterate each other?

This brings me to my next point in my series of ramblings, viability.

Does SOMEONE have to be bottom tier? I don't necessarily believe that tiers have to be "balanced" out or anything. Bottom-tier characters do exist, especially in a game where there are a lot of characters to choose from and they all have different traits. No matter how you look at it, Pichu doesn't win in tournament. You might make it out of pools in the hands of a great player, but even KDJ can't turn Pichu into a Shiz killer, no matter how many scrub Falcos can gimp.

Mewtwo has a lot of weaknesses, but I and obviously most of the top Mewtwo players are also trying to show that Mewtwo's weaknesses aren't so glaring that he should be placed in the same category as Pichu and Kirby. Mewtwo is big, but Mewtwo can also spend most of his free time being invincible. Mewtwo's tail is a part of his hit box, but Mewtwo can easily keep an opponent fronted and that weakness becomes less of a burden until Mewtwo is typically forced in the air and tumbling. We've seen good mid-level Bowsers, we've seen good Roys, YL, Link, DK, Luigi, Pikachus, Docs and Marios through Melee's history, capable of competing with several good players on several good characters.

I don't think it is rational to strictly judge a character's work based solely on national tournaments, because I've also discussed that it is the players that are winning the tournaments first. Ken has gone Fox for certain match-ups and stages. PC mained Fox now instead of Falco, and since then Falco dropped several places. You can't belittle the strength and potential of Fox because the players can't get past the users of pink balloon heads and a princess with a whirlwind of priority. Do we accept a character's strengths, even from an individual's performance against similarly skilled opponents, or do we dismiss it in favor of different users emulating the success of others to a lesser or greater extent than first discovered?

I'm not a very smart player, nor am I particularly technical. I have very specific skills that allow me to compete and many people can't imitate it. I have access to guaranteed things that most people have to predict and read. At what point does a player's ability with a character actually supersede the acknowledgment of a character's potential? People would argue that they could just apply that talent to a better character (Tai wants me to play Marth still) and have better results, but what if my particular skills just don't work with better characters?

I can't play Fox like I used to play him, I'm not capable of the same level of technical skill most Falco mains have, and I have a whack-*** Falcon. Mewtwo strangely gives me more margin for error than most of the top and high tier characters, and I don't think it's just because of practice.

Even if the person just so happens to be "godly" with a character, is it fair to ignore that an individual has proven a character viable amongst his or her peers in skill?

I firmly believe that Pikachu, even if it is Axe alone, is a strong character that should be higher than Luigi. At the very least, Pikachu's weaknesses aren't glaring enough with good handling to warrant a low tier placement. Axe's dedication might have a lot to do with it, but whether it is easy or difficult, results are results. Axe is a phenomenal player that has made huge strides these past two years, and the characters he chose to do it with are benefiting from it.

I'm not quite ready to accept Zelda as a viable character despite Cosmo's latest feat, but I'm open to the idea if there is more repetition even from an individual. When that Zelda builds that resume, I'll be the first to admit Zelda > Mewtwo. Until then, I stand my ground, and I'll attempt to one up that by being one of the best low tiers at this upcoming national tournament.

I'm sorry for making this so unorganized, I got hella sidetracked, if there's anything that needs clarification, please let me know.
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned via Warnings
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Messages
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#37
it's cool tai, but yeah I argee with the I play as ____ but I can't play as _____ that way. skill> who you pick.

I firmly believe in that other than extreme cases like if they fight someone so slow they can't EVER hit them because foc/whoever is faster in everyway. I play please gay as pichu sometimes I can make some one rage quit as someone slow like kirby.

if if you aren't that easy to camp then yeah go for it, if I ever see m2k again I want to pay him to teach me how to fight sheik as pichu maybe one of th ehardest matches in the game. I'm dumb for trying in many ways but I have to give it my all before I even think of giviong up pichu vs sheik. If I end up being able to take a stock every match from him yeah I could totally deal with another sheik. I don't give up as pichu.

after all in truth of everything he only has 2 flaws he can't take hits and his range. (anything you can think falls into one of those 2 problems).




pikachu sucks axe :p
 

Winston

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 13, 2006
Messages
3,563
Location
Seattle, WA (slightly north of U-District)
#38
As a borderline-low tier user (Luigi), these are the questions that come to mind:

Could you elaborate on what specific features of Mewtwo reward your skillset, and why they can't be applied as well to other characters? Do you feel that there really are advantages offered by low tiers that go beyond your opponents being unfamiliar with the matchup?

As for Pikachu being a better character than Luigi, isn't it a little unfair to say that at this point? There's no Luigi player as dedicated as Axe to developing the character.
 

Taj278

TIME TO GET PAID!
GRimer
Joined
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#39
Pichu has a few other flaws, too. Pichu punishes himself for executing half of his moveset. Specifically, his best potential anti-camping projectile is double edged and not worth the risk unless you're specifically using it to approach. Pichu is the only character in the game that deliberately has to give up percentage in order to advance the match. Recovery, KO moves, and projectiles. Though the other two flaws are so incredibly large that they actually make up 2/3s of all possible flaws in the game. It's like saying Pichu has speed, but can't hit anyone and can't take hits very well.

So... Pichu can always fly into an opponents spacing pocket... but can't really do anything, and pretty much get punished for approaching. If Pichu ever takes a lead, it can be very bad for some other characters though.

Pichu does have some interesting things, but Pichu is definitely missing key abilities that Pikachu has. Specifically, range on up smash, disjointed and spammable up air that links into Pikachu's more powerful aerials, grabs, and smashes, gimping ability, and a safer recovery due to its quicker pathing, damage, and strange hurtbox. Pichu is fully capable of being played by great players, but Pichu definitely deserves its place in bottom tier due to the lack of tools. Changing the way you might approach the Sheik match-up isn't going to make Pichu a better character.

A drastic overhaul in both character attributes and a fundamentally established player style is the only thing that can change people's perceptions of Pichu. Unfortunately, Pichu lacks the talent pool with dedicated players, and even with AR, the exploration of Pichu's potential is quite shallow. :(

That's to say that there shouldn't be anything stopping you from trying to prove everyone wrong, which you are attempting to do, but the evidence supporting Pichu as one of the worst characters in the game, if not the worst is evident. Specifically in the number of disadvantaged match-ups Pichu has in comparison to even Kirby.

Kirby can be camped by several characters, but has more tools in a toe to toe. Pichu does tend to do better against less mobile characters and characters that have very acute attacks, but every match-up I've seen against mid level Pichu vs. the rest of bottom tier with the exception of Kirby has ended in Pichu's crushing defeat. I don't remember how T!mmy and T0mmy's matches went.
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned via Warnings
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#40
m2's projectil;e game for starters, DJC, WD timing I believe, combos/grabs/sets ups, edge gaurd is very different, m2 approachs a lot or at least seems to use a lot of tilts,wds, and projectiles hardly anything like marth.

also different typed of mindgames or what have you. take my pichu I have a notebook filled with half my ideas for mindgames, baiting and adapting as pichu and as far as mindgames for marth it's not spamming(don't play to defenceive or offenvie so I mix up approachs and movemnet and etc.) and walk away f-smash.

@TAJ with late edit

tommy(pichu) won that match-up however that was simply one set doesn't mean much for pichu's metagame.


a few things I would like to point out that are very flawed. pichu in fact has a more solid grab game than pikachu in maybe everyway but for a worse b-throw. pichu's throws have less knockback which equals longer chain throws/ combo percents/ tech chases and etc., pichu also has twice the grab range of pikachu, twice the sheild size and better l-cancels for setting of grabs. pichu's grab game>pikachu's

self damage again falls into can't take a hit. but if pichu lands a fair even against someone he can't get much out of like jigglypuff that 7% + grab= f-throw(9% roughly)-> nair(works vs puff 12%) you did like 26% and took 5% and are in control that's a fair trade I think.
I argee it would be cool to not take 5% but still it's not totally worthless.

I don't know but most low tiers lack a move that is legitly an answer to every thing in the game. pichu's nair is a fix all answer to everything you really could win a game freakin spamming the s*** out of this move decent damage/knockback sets up things at different percents like jab reset to f-smash= stock vs space animals at 40%. iot's edge gaurds very nicely, no lag, dding to bait and make them wiff.

really it isn't easy to punish a well spaced nair from pichu CCing and sheilding isn't going to work and it covers a lot of ground for it's lack of range. sure tilting will work but it's easy to keep them geussing and if you didn't nair to everything you could rush up and d-tilt space or projectile to force them to find a new answer.

no other bottom tier has a move that spamable and speed to back it up.



also have you ever step down and camped kirby? WTF?!?!?!? I camped kirby to death as pichu I when to KJ64 and hit him once and simly run around and learned all the tricks kirby could do and how to counter them. soon i'll try puff. I can camp very well as pichu some times.
 
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