Q&A Mewtwo Philosophy - Q&A Ask Away

[BunBun]

Kirby > Pichu.


It's not a lot, but it's definitely there.

 

[Taj278]

As a borderline-low tier user (Luigi), these are the questions that come to mind:

Could you elaborate on what specific features of Mewtwo reward your skillset, and why they can't be applied as well to other characters? Do you feel that there really are advantages offered by low tiers that go beyond your opponents being unfamiliar with the matchup?

As for Pikachu being a better character than Luigi, isn't it a little unfair to say that at this point? There's no Luigi player as dedicated as Axe to developing the character.

My skills are reaction, inhibition control, and focus. Specifically, I can respond very quickly to most hostile actions with correct decisions most of the time and very quickly. I can make good use of it with Marth a lot, too, but it can be very tiring as holding that level of focus for even 45 seconds can be taxing and in that duration I can be prone to errors. Mewtwo being very mobile allows me to "rest" and regain focus a lot, on top of being able to rest between stocks a bit easier using ledge stalls and teleport cancels.

Because of that, I can often ride the momentum and hold it much more consistently despite not completely obliterating people as easily as Marth. A 2 stock victory as Mewtwo can sometimes be a 4 stock victory as Marth, but the scaling of opponent difficulty tends to even my stock counts out. I tend to do as well against Axe with my Mewtwo as I do with my Marth even though Axe has oodles of Mewtwo experience. I'm still not quite sure why that is, but it is similar with the majority of people I play. The exception I think, would be Wobbles where my Marth just has a match-up advantage against IC's and his secondaries aren't quite where his ICs are at the moment.

So... to answer your other question about advantages of low-tiers beyond match-up unfamiliarity, I would say definitely. My experience with Axe so far show evidence of that on both sides. Someone knowing the M2 match-up might even things out a bit more, but it doesn't necessarily make match-ups impossible, just a lot more difficult. I'm getting better at understanding Pikachu, but Axe can still bring the pain and make my Marth sweat. I can go a little better toe to toe with my secondaries now as well, but Axe can still adapt his strategies and readjust his timings to the characters I'm playing with, because in the end he is still playing me.

And your last question... Yeah, I'm sorry I didn't emphasize this point as much. In order for a character to move up and down for that matter, there needs to be evidence that the character still deserves its spot. Luigi can still be a mid tier character, I don't mean to say that Luigi "sucks" more, but Pikachu is showing advantages that are slightly greater than what Luigi is showing today. An individual can be a big part of that and if every top smasher that played Fox just stopped and only mid level players were left, we'd see Fox's placement be reevaluated as well, or we'd start comparing the performance and advancements of other characters with Fox's stagnating performance and make decisions based on that.

Axe's effort isn't the sole reason I believe Pikachu should be moved up, but what is being done with the character as a result of his effort. Pikachu is more mobile, has more combos, recovery options, and general safety than I previously realized.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I hope you mean the match-up bunbun the match-up I could see kirby>pichu not kirby>pichu in who is better.

@TAJ with late edit

tommy(pichu) won that match-up however that was simply one set doesn't mean much for pichu's metagame.


a few things I would like to point out that are very flawed. pichu in fact has a more solid grab game than pikachu in maybe everyway but for a worse b-throw. pichu's throws have less knockback which equals longer chain throws/ combo percents/ tech chases and etc., pichu also has twice the grab range of pikachu, twice the sheild size and better l-cancels for setting of grabs. pichu's grab game>pikachu's

self damage again falls into can't take a hit. but if pichu lands a fair even against someone he can't get much out of like jigglypuff that 7% + grab= f-throw(9% roughly)-> nair(works vs puff 12%) you did like 26% and took 5% and are in control that's a fair trade I think.
I argee it would be cool to not take 5% but still it's not totally worthless.

I don't know but most low tiers lack a move that is legitly an answer to every thing in the game. pichu's nair is a fix all answer to everything you really could win a game freakin spamming the s*** out of this move decent damage/knockback sets up things at different percents like jab reset to f-smash= stock vs space animals at 40%. iot's edge gaurds very nicely, no lag, dding to bait and make them wiff.

really it isn't easy to punish a well spaced nair from pichu CCing and sheilding isn't going to work and it covers a lot of ground for it's lack of range. sure tilting will work but it's easy to keep them geussing and if you didn't nair to everything you could rush up and d-tilt space or projectile to force them to find a new answer.

no other bottom tier has a move that spamable and speed to back it up.



also have you ever step down and camped kirby? WTF?!?!?!? I camped kirby to death as pichu I when to KJ64 and hit him once and simly run around and learned all the tricks kirby could do and how to counter them. soon i'll try puff. I can camp very well as pichu some times.

 

[BunBun]

In both the matchup and the tier chart. Prove me wrong.


However, the tier chart doesn't matter for GW, Pichu, Kirby, Ness, Bowser, Roy and Yoshi.

Sad but true.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I think I argee with how the tier chart doesn't matter for them. please for the love of God don't get me or anyone else debateing pichu vs kirby because I don't want to ruin this beuatiful thread taj has created.


but I think m2 is better than bowser to try to turn away from pichu/kirby.

 

[BunBun]

Also, I hope you're not using our match for the KJ64 timeout example. I'd be curious to play it, but I had to play a tourney set soon and didn't want to possibly waste 8 minutes of a boring match. I could see it going in favor of Pichu on that stage, but only slightly, and that's only one stage. I get one ban =P


EDIT: Yes, M2 is much better than Bowser lol

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

yeah one stage doesn't counter as an favor in a match up, howver out of 3 matches one being a lose always if played right yeah that will F*** you up. again up-B as kirby was the basic idea of how to win that match-up. say your in the middle right and i'm under the platfor, right. you up-B and I jump up to move around adn avoid being hit however if you land up-B on a platform I jump right into it and you a bit of control so you can run in there and mess with me.

however I figured it our chances are it wouldn't work. as long as I keep a level head and know what I need I should be safe and it should be easy to punish you for attcking when above you.

for the other matche sI simply didn't camp hard enough XD






http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncZO6PPuH00&feature=player_embedded disco room is fun sometimes more so when you don't pay XD

 

[BunBun]

Lol I didn't up B at all. That's a horrible idea.

The matches that were played out weren't close lol. You got messed up hard. Kirby straight up beats Pichu. Even if it works out that you have an auto-win stage, I have a ban, and even not that, you'd still have to win somewhere else.



Anyway, sorry we derailed your amazing thread Taj.

 

[Wobbles]

I like this thread Taj for president.

I can make good use of it with Marth a lot, too, but it can be very tiring as holding that level of focus for even 45 seconds can be taxing and in that duration I can be prone to errors. Mewtwo being very mobile allows me to "rest" and regain focus a lot, on top of being able to rest between stocks a bit easier using ledge stalls and teleport cancels.

I'd like to share that I also have a lot of good strength and "beast mode" when I really really concentrate, but I have a lot of difficulty keeping it up throughout a match. Recently I've begun resetting situations more and it helps me play sharp more. Well, not necessarily more than I have before, but I'm better at placing my focus reserves in situations where they will give me advantages, rather than burning it all out. ICs are surprisingly good at escaping and resetting so this has worked out for me as well.

I've often believed my reaction time is poor, yet there are moments where I react to things I didn't think were even literally possible to react to. Then again, Taj can usually react to things I didn't think were humanly possible either, so... you know. Have fun if he ever grabs you with Marth and decides to b-throw you near the edge!

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

bunbun my only johns

I suck really bad and the last match onlty the last match, my brain was fried from the leather jacket and the room was uber hot, I had no will whatso ever to win. the other matches you totally won and should have won your better. i'm just gayer as a player.

 

[t3h Icy]

Great posts Taj. <3

Between the three Smash games, tiers become more noticeable going forward. SSB64's characters can all 0-death each other in most cases (excluding Samus), and any low tier character can compete fairly well with top tiers. SSB64 is almost purely skill-based, and you can be successful with almost any character, which makes it fun since you can pick someone based on your own style and not be heavily disadvantaged (in most cases).

Brawl's physics make the differences in tiers very noticeable seeing how much better MK and Snake are than others and how much worse Link and Ganon are than others. But fortunately the amount of players is large enough that most characters get to be used. San has almost beaten Ally twice now using Ike, X took M2K to game 5 with Sonic and Big Lou destroyed Mikehaze 2-0 twice with Luigi in what's considered an extremely one-sided match-up.

Melee having had the biggest tournament scene (time-based) and the largest amount of players (also based on how long the game's been around), Melee's metagame is the most developed. Unfortunately, 10 years later, there are still characters not being developed. I still believe Yoshi has the most potential out of all 26 characters and once someone can parry almost anything, we'll be in the age of Yoshi. Hopefully that happens some day before Melee dies off, but the only major Yoshi players currently are Mind Trick, VMan and Bloshi.

Zelda has untapped potential too and hopefully TheLake and Cosmo can continue rocking with her. Cosmo kind of destroyed POE3 and TheLake almost beating Hugs at Pound 4. Zelda has the most damage per hit, that isn't a Smash or huge charge-up move, and you can literally take out characters with 4-5 of them. On top, Bair and Fair are both basically the same, so you can position yourself so you don't stale one too much. Once someone masters spacing with them, Zelda will be a true glass cannon and I really hope Cosmo can continue. =D

There's a lot of unique abilities among the low tiers, but most people jump to the top tiers immediately and a lot of characters never get developed. Young Link could be vicious with an amazing spam game, Link as an altered version, but with power, DK spacing with his huge Bair and his amazing throw game, etc. It's nice that many players have started getting recognition with mid and low tiers, including the Mewtwo players, Axe, HDL, Cosmo, DJ Nintendo, WarriorKnight, Armada (Kirby), the Doc players and others.

I'm not a high level player or super technical, but I love using bottom tiers and keeping up with others. So far I've beaten Sheik with Bowser, Falco with Roy, Fox with Yoshi and I've won team games using Pichu, and I'm hoping to expand my army. I'm a tier ***** too and use Puff if I need to and often in teams, but I've been trying to expand players' minds that lower tiers have capabilities too and can win in the right hands. Of course they have their flaws and weaknesses; that's why they're low tiers, but the difference isn't as large for most as characters as a lot of people think.

I'll always be hyping and cheering any low tier players, and I'll be watching you **** with Mewtwo on the APEX Livestream. <3

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

yeah melee is the hardest of a close 2nd(ssb i've heard it's harder/better i'm not argeeing/disargeeing) but for some reason no one really wants to try as some of the easier charcters in the way of tech skill.

really I think ice climbers, yoshi, pichu(me by myself), zedla, falco, luigi can all expand a lot why I think falco is because of the fact there aren't many falco who like to use mindgames as solid warfair in the way I like to throw people off gaurd as piichu, I don't know I can't really explain why I feel that but falco is my 2nd favorite for mental warfair.

sometimes I feel like I have more options as falco recovery wise than I do as pichu.

but low/bottom tier hype would be pretty cool.

 

[KAOSTAR]

In both the matchup and the tier chart. Prove me wrong.


However, the tier chart doesn't matter for GW, Pichu, Kirby, Ness, Bowser, Roy and Yoshi.

Sad but true.

Its a dam good thing I handled mewtwo's section then.

But yea, guys keep em coming, ****s really ****ing amazing to read. Ill probably give my input in 2morrow or something. Lol, I dont wanna just ramble and Im tired right now, cuz Im bad at it and my mind can teleport almost as well as m2.

 

[V3ctorMan]

too much underestimating yoshi.....^ that is all... I'll show you all =}

 

[V3ctorMan]

oopsy

EDIT: double post

 

[darkgirku]

what V3ctorMan said.

Also, I love this thread. I need to show it to my brother(s) who are starting to have doubts in melee's goodness.

AZ ftw P:

 

[T0MMY]

Our matches used to be pretty even, with me winning more because I can read into the game better (I won the $100 MM).
t1mmy wrecked me in grand finals at the last Oregon Melee tourney (RVS1)... Pichu vs Kirby the entire set... how scrubby, lol.

 

[Taj278]

My next entry in my random series of ramblings...

Potential.

How do you realize what you or what you're doing will amount to anything?

I've tried to emphasize that it is the player that wins tournaments, not solely their characters. This is evident in several sports and video game champions. Steve Nash as a league MVP, I've heard of low tier Tekken tournament winners, Boxer revolutionizing Terran play, the Korean Rogue Priest Mage team Button Bashers winning WoW tournaments when rogue strength is at its lowest, etc.

There have been an equal number of times when top players have dismissed playing any specific character or class in favor of maintaining and extending their competitive edge. In Melee, we have plenty of people with a pocket Fox, people with backup Sheik, and in the current metagame, unless you're specifically a Jiggs/Fox/Peach/Falcon main, having a top tier in reserve for counter-pick stages that tend to favor those characters is almost a must in tournament as most people tend to only practice neutral stages with their friends and local scene.

Wobbles' endeavors as an IC main has led him to several counterpicks. Where most people playing the ICs would hate Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar, Wobbles has a fondness toward those stages and an immense amount of success against people attempting to exploit what most would consider a weak stage for that character. The ingenuity and skills shown by players like Forward (Falco on Jungle Japes) and Wobbles really demonstrates some of the unseen aspects of character development and player development that have shaped the way the game is played today.

Is it actually possible for a Kirby main to catch a Fox playing keep away with sufficient player skill? Does Mewtwo actually overcome Sheik and Marth in ways we didn't imagine?

These questions should be explored in everyone's characters and challenging your comfort zone against seemingly impossible match-ups. We should also take this into consideration when we're playing against people that are better than us. Can we overcome blatant differences in actual talent? Do all popular games have so little depth that unless you have a specific body type and skin color that you can't compete at the highest level? Why can't someone overcome adversity with determination and practice? Why can't a genius break through a steel ceiling and discover a ceiling as high as the universe?

A Pikachu main can be in winners finals at an international tournament, a 6'3 Canadian white guy can be a league MVP two seasons in a row, and a black guy can practically be a golf tyrant.

We, including scrubs and pros, play for a variety of reasons. Most of us started playing this game because it was fun. Most of us keep playing this game because it is fun. Some of us keep playing this game because our friends still play it, we're good enough to win money playing it against other people, or we have fun discovering just how far we can take the game collectively and individually. I wanted to be the best Mewtwo in the world a long time ago, I also wanted to be acknowledged as one of the best players in the world.

I'm sure the hundreds and thousands of Melee players wouldn't mind sharing goals similar to my own, but someone has to lose and someone has to win for any competitive game. I might want to play a solid style, utilizing a strong combination of offense and defensive play. A player like Axe might want to win using very unique and aggressive styles of play to maintain the competitive edge. It is usually these differences in style, mentality, and ability that lead towards our differences in character selection while the Game Itself has enough depth for both of us to succeed with wildly different mentalities, experiences, and capabilities. I might look for things that are guaranteed with my reaction like tech chases and pop-ups, Axe might look for ways to encroach someone's space and pressure them safely and relentlessly.

Not everyone can realize certain long-term goals, but we all can definitely make realistic short-term goals and build upon them. Become top 25 in your state/region, become the best X character player in your region. Even smaller goals like being able to do up throw up airs on your friends consistently and moving around the stage without killing yourself are all viable goals to help keep confidence and promote healthier gaming sessions.

The one thing that almost every champion has in common is their love of the game. Yes, some people are naturally gifted at things and realized the potential in earning money right away even if the task is uninteresting, BUT without having ANY kind of interest or drive, even a genius will hit a wall they can't overcome without devotion one way or another.

I want to reiterate that there are things that are highly improbable. The likelihood that a bottom tier or low tier places top 8 are very small at large scale tournaments. The probability of said bottom tier characters repeating their success against equally or greater distinguished players such as a Sonic beating M2K or a Ganon making top 3 in Brawl are all very rare. However, the amazing things that people tend to do in general just isn't a phenomenon anymore. We should acknowledge the amazing feats that people at the top are able to accomplish on a consistent basis, and we should also acknowledge the struggle of the people climbing underneath their feet just to share that glory.

Someone has to win and someone has to lose. Attempt to be the best at whatever it is you do, but don't let anyone tell you that what you're doing is wrong when it is clearly within the rules. Don't let anyone belittle you for your legitimate accomplishments, whether they think you're a gimmick, whether they think you just got lucky, or if they don't know the match-up. E-sports are a tough and unforgiving way to make a living even in its best locations. Time kills careers whether they last 30 years or 3 minutes.

Respect and acknowledge the moments of greatness from yourself and those around you!

What do you guys think about competitive gaming in general? The the lifespan of a pro gamer is very short, top players even in the best competitive scenes can be replaced in as little as a couple of months. Players like Justin Wong and Daigo are quite rare, especially across multiple franchises. If gaming becomes more mainstream in the US, do you guys think that there would be longer "dynasties" in other types of games?

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

theory kirby can never touch fox no matter what. but yeah theory.

I like your posts here I don't know I like to be humble I never really say I did amazing or anything i've played matches I really couldn't believe How could I do so well against zhu and have been 4 stocked 5 times in a row by a nooby marth in one day? I amazed myself sometimes I really believe I have a chance and I never let anything push me down I take insults, happiness, hope, hardness, and anything I can to make my will to win this match and to be amazing. I never stop thinking it's possible even when I've been 4 stocked many times in a row by someone I should eaily beat. I hype myself to overcome and take over.

I don't limit myself even still i'm mostly playing to learn and have fun winning hardcore will have to wait till I feel like I have this and I can't lose. I am my own hero.



great thread.

 

[Deleted member]

IMO Zelda has a lot more potential than Mewtwo does. Since smash is just about what you can and cannot do, how well you can perform is somewhat predetermined by how well your character can get around certain powerful strategies. Zelda might lose horrendously to fox sheik falcon, but at least her list ends there. almost all of the characters in the top half of the cast tier-wise have some kind of easy strategy to recycle that hardcore nullifies mewtwo's effectiveness. At least I was able to work my way to narrow wins in sets vs azen's marth, chu's ICs, PC's falco, vidjo's peach, etc. as zelda, I can't ever see myself winning those matches with mewtwo =/

edit: I got sean's falco in a mad close set when he stayed at chu's for iirc pound 3?

 

[Taj278]

I've proposed the idea that certain characters tend to mesh well with individual player skills than others. Whether that stems from dedication towards a favorite character, or that character just happens to have the appropriate characteristics and statistics to make them your best.

I'm uncertain if I agree with Zelda having more potential than Mewtwo as an overall character, but Zelda definitely seems to cater more toward your specific playstyle than Mewtwo. I remember hearing that your Ness was also really good, and I've witnessed your Fox being very good last time I saw it. The player talent pool of the East Coast is something that has always been a great advantage towards the development of top players. Having access to Chu and Azen practically next door, and players like PC Chris basically 6 hours away meant that tournaments with high level players, with a wide range of playstyles, and a large character selection helps develop all kinds of strategies and mentalities to aid in success.

Just like a lot of players that are orbiting around Mango developed or continued to develop into very strong players, their players' versatility and character versatility even from one player influenced your character choice and playstyle in conjunction with your own aptitudes.

Axe has AMAZING control and EXCELLENT timing, this allows him to Powershield on command as long as he sees and expects something, and he can pursue and pressure in ways most people can't emulate. His off stage edgeguarding with Falco rivals Zhu and Mango, and even with Pikachu he minimizes errors for the most technically demanding recoveries following his gimps.

Forward tends to play very strategically while still being technical enough to maintain control. He can keep me in my shield in a completely different way than Axe can but be equally if not more effective from his seemingly simple yet hostile presence. Once he has you, his technical skill shows in his ability to follow up.

From playing against Forward, I've almost always had to play out of my shield, and I've developed a fundamentally strong counter game against people that were superior to me in tech-skill and stage control. Axe once said something to the effect of, "He just... catches you," and I think that has a lot to do with my personality and general style. I like like characters that can "probe" and be very subtle, but then hold momentum once you've fallen into my trap and pace.

I think that "counter" mentality also shows in Mow's Zelda and early Mewtwo as well.

If anyone reads Hajime no Ippo, I feel just like the Ippo vs. Woli fight when I play against Forward and Axe sometimes. I scratch you once, then I scratch you 5 times, then I go for the KO once I've achieved each goal. That match almost epitomizes Mewtwo. You can't win with just light jabs, but Mewtwo and even this game work allows you to slowly build your road to success. Each down tilt, every down throw adds up, and the possibility of achieving the final goal of KOing becomes increasingly probable specifically for Mewtwo as the goals shift, and they aren't quite as static as most other characters.

Sheik naturally flows from combos to KO percentages with the same strategy most of the match. The techchase, the tilts into foward air. Fox combos with the same moves he KOs with, he gimps at 0% or he gimps at 120% with shine. Falco's lasers are the same type of control whether they're at 0% or 300% it's the same knock back, the only difference is if a shine will combo into edgeguard or the jab into KO.

Mewtwo has to pick and scratch at the opponent and the gears can immediately shift into Grab up throws or chip damage from edgeguards. It's a completely different mentality, because they simply don't come as easily as landing a down air, or a grab with a character that is 1-4th ranked in run speed, 4-11th in grab range, and/or frame safe shield pressure into grabs. Even though it is more difficult, it is still feasible with Mewtwo's skill set, and my strengths work to achieve those goals.

What makes character potential so difficult is how we weigh options. Mewtwo has more options than Zelda. Zelda has limited options, but the options she does have are very strong options. They are quick, rewarded for spacing, and naturally tend to rise and fall at average character heights and hops. Zelda gets punished hard like most low tiers by any character with movement speed that can encroach her space too quickly, or any character that can limit her movement with projectiles superior to her reflect and out of shield game. (Falco, YL, and Link.) The problem with Zelda seems to be understanding her zone. I don't think MacD understood that until he was on his last stock against against Cosmo. He put too much stock in Peach's absurd priority when he didn't need to and gambled against Zelda's feet and lost. When people don't challenge the forward and back air, like when people don't try to challenge Luigi's neutral air for an extended combo, they tend to do quite a bit better.

At that point, Zelda ends up losing to more characters in my opinion, because almost every character doesn't need to commit on an approach that Zelda needs to decide to defend. If Zelda doesn't call the approach, she gets hit and possibly comboed, if she does go for it, most characters can take better stage position until Zelda can't space to retreat anymore and has to commit to something to regain space. A character like Bowser can't advance that well, but a character like Pikachu definitely can.

Mewtwo gets the benefit of almost dictating where he wants to be on the stage. Positioning is based entirely on the character's overall stage control. Mewtwo gets pressured into a corner, then gets ledge invincibility, and can move from stage to platforms, from platforms to stage, from corner to center stage. He can get pushed anywhere, but can move anywhere, it's pretty interesting. You start getting players that try to influence where you want to go in order to up smash you after they realize that, but then you can also influence them back. Instead of going to center stage, you stay in place or you go to ledge. Teleport from top platform to stage or mix trick them and go far side platforms and charge shadowball a tick or two. Deceptive lag from teleports, tilts, and smashes force people into your space, Mewtwo gives up a lot of horizontal priority for some of the best vertical attack priority with up tilt/up airs and neutral air from under platforms as a shield eater. Mewtwo gives up a lot of options for strange and unique options. I guess that's part of his charm.

I'm partial to Mewtwo having more potential than Zelda, because he's my character. I'm trying to look at it objectively, but I can't see Zelda's options being more potent than Mewtwo at this point, I guess I just need to see more Zelda matches as PoE3 doesn't quite cut it for me. (Kels plays **** near perfectly, and MacD just didn't adapt to the match-up in time.) Cosmo played very intelligently, he seemed to throw out aerials whenever and wherever he needed them and had very nice calls. Hmm... I just don't know.

 

[Taj278]

Developing a character without other people is very difficult. I'm uncertain how many people in Melee have come out of nowhere from their parent's basement with a brand new character that wasn't polished from playing other good players. Some characters are easier to develop than others, like Jigglypuff. Control is especially important with that character, but the playstyle is wildly different than the type of technical skill demanded from characters like Fox and Falco in the current metagame.

When you have a player that plays a lot of characters, even if they can win with multiple characters, they have a distinct playstyle that is still accentuated in their primary characters. I know a lot of people seem to comment on how my Marth does a lot of "weird" things and they blame it on my Mewtwo.

Marth and Mewtwo are still my favorite characters in Melee I get the most joy from my Tezuka Zone and gimps on Falco as Marth, and just general **** with Mewtwo, messing with people when I grab them. :D

I'm sure everyone has some experiences with their favorite characters that just aren't easily replicated with another character, whether there are better characters or not.

We've heard the gospel that "Tiers r 4 Queers" and skill > tiers. We are aware that tiers, as subjective as they are, definitely exist, and current character strength and character potential are the primary influences in our decisions in exclusively picking a tournament character that's not our favorite character.

Just like Forward and KDJ developed their Sheiks when Marth was at his strongest in tournament, the floaties are taking top spots in tournaments by crushing the spacies. We're getting interesting cycles of character development right now. Falcons still hate the spacie match-up but it seems like a love-hate relationship. They have so much experience with it that it becomes almost natural, and a favorable match-up. The techchases, the combos, and the approaches have all advanced greatly. Where most other Mewtwo mains hate the Marth match-up, I have so much experience with it, that I actually love it.

I'm sure that you guys have all played someone so frequently that you feel very confident in particular match-ups. Not necessarily invincible (unless you're a top pro), but you feel confident that you can do well against anyone. What are some of your favorite match-ups that may even be against all odds?

Marth vs. Mewtwo is 100-0?

 

[Jim Morrison]

I just want you to know, I like this thread, I lurk it, and it's not only useful to Mewtwo mains.

 

[V3ctorMan]

Ok here are my thoughts on how it works...I agree with the as you play with a certain player, you get more/less comfortable with certain matchups. Thankfully this works with EVERY character in the game, even with specific playstyles...

Example: One of my personal favorite matchups is against Falco, whether I'm doing Falco dittos, to playing Mewtwo/Yoshi against him...it's one of my favorite matchups..... Of course, you have to also note, the many "styles" of Falco that are played....I like the aggressive Falco(s) such as Axe, Zhu, because i'm more "comfortable" at punishing simple mistakes...than trying to play the "more aggressive" style of play....This also works for the ladder Falco(s) I can't name any "known" ones that I consider campy but here in AZ. Tag$, RubyIris, have a very defensive/campy style of Falco...these potentially give me a bit more trouble, as my opportunity window is much less due to less likely of a "major" error that I can punish..

Every character in the game has a defensive/offensive way to play. Most of you that have seen Axe, my falcos, and many others out there, we'd be considered the offensive style of how to play Falco... and of course there are the defensive based players such as Taj...

Also note... Taj/Axe, both of them are masters at "baiting" there opponents into a trap setup (i.e. putting the opponent where they want you) this IMO this is a large reason, and IMO, I don't believe it's given enough credit for.. but this is a major piece of why Taj's Mewtwo/Axe's Pikachu, are on the level that they are on any many of the low tier reps that we have growing Cosmo, myself etc.... This specific trait enables them to use their character at such a high level of play, that many of us won't believe to fathom... or even consider pikachu, Mewtwo as "viable characters". It may even be why many of us "refuse to believe" that some characters are even useful...which I suppose is a fair enough argument, since everyone doesn't have this, nor desire to attain it..

For those of us that have made the "non viable characters usable at a competent level, we either had to experiment with matchups, discover our char(s) weaknesses, advantages etc, and even how to use the stage, even develop habits that the player doesn't specifically play like... either playing more defensive, aggressive, campy, whatever the situation is...and of course the simple "Trial, and error method"

I could go on, and on about this, to me, it's nearly a matter of focus/determination/motivation...these 3 factors are "keys" to competetive gaming itself... and you will use all 3 of these...

=) Just my thoughts. ^^

 

[Taj278]

I just want you to know, I like this thread, I lurk it, and it's not only useful to Mewtwo mains.

Heh, thank you. Yeah, I've been feeling pretty uncomfortable just posting to myself. I'm curious to know the people that are actually lurking this thread. Other people's thoughts and comments are more than welcome and appreciated.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I would love to add something, but it's not like I'm a vet. I only recently started Melee (like april/may), but didn't find an actual character to stick with.

It took me months before I finally recognized how much I enjoy playing as Donkey Kong, which was last week. Now I'm starting to build up a nice character, but I haven't played enough to say "I feel comfortable playing X matchup". In the future this'll change, since I regularly play a Marth, a Peach and a Captain Falcon player. None of us are really good, so not learning the matchup at top level, but I really believe you have to learn how to beat mediocre players before you can start learning to matchup on a higher level, even if you learn how to counter characters the wrong way (for example, what a pro wouldn't do, but a mediocre player would).

Before that I've been hopping mains like crazy and just go random characters. For a while I played Mewtwo (you might remember that but I had a different name + avatar teehee (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGIbWEiV8uU)) but I realized that I just couldn't be a Mewtwo player, because he takes a ridiculous amount of dedication to even get out of pouls. I do however still enjoy playing him

I think picking your character is one of the most demanding routes to walk, because you can't just go at it like "oh I think I'll play this character". Some people find their right character quickly, but then there's people like me who can't stay with one.
What definitly helped me pick Donkey Kong was reading up on how to play him so that when I played him, I could get a sense of how he would perform for the rest of the time I stuck with him. (Here's footage of my DK btw, don't mind me shamelessly advertising myself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L22if9yWCO0&feature=related)

After you picked your character the fun road starts, IF you picked the right character. Advancing your character to perform better requires you to advance. This should be fun if you picked a character you enjoy playing a lot. I've seen a lot of people thinking "man I have to pick a character from the top 4 to get good easily" but this is wrong. They might get better faster, but playing a character you don't enjoy does not make the process seem faster. It'll only make it harder and frustrating.
With Donkey Kong I'm expierencing the frustration, really to the max (Bozo knows, I get so upset after getting kneed off), but after the frustration comes the sense of "okay, I have to avoid this and beat him next time" instead of the usual "man this sucks I wanna quit". This really makes me believe I found the right character for me.


So there's my philosophy, not on Mewtwo, not on how matchups become after playing a lot but about picking your character. Man, I feel like I typed so randomly :/

 

[Taj278]

Interesting, I think determining a main outside of just being a fan favorite is very difficult. I was conflicted between the top three myself for a long time. I went from Sheik in my earliest days, to Fox, and then to Marth as I felt I reached the appropriate level to play him as my main. I can probably never main Fox all the way through a tournament as comfortably as I did in 06, but even if I feel like I can't play Marth at the level I need to in tournament, he is still more comfortable as a character to me than my Fox, Falco, or Sheik.

If I just randomly selected Sheik and went to a tournament today, I might even do BETTER than I'd do with my Mewtwo and Marth, but I'm just not as familiar with the small intricacies of the character. I'd always feel like I'd flub edgeguards, easy combos, and recoveries. In the future I can see myself making a big transition back to Sheik, but right now, it's Marth and M2.

I think we also need to consider that possibility, also, that as we change and grow as PLAYERS, our fondness towards characters may deteriorate or grow. PC Chris going from Marth to Falco to Fox. Forward going from Falco to Sheik to Fox. M2K going from Fox to Marth to a Fox/Sheik/Marth counter pick lineup.

I agree with you that some people have it easy in clicking with a character, or their conviction towards a favorite character is unyielding, but I'd say most people are constantly playing and shopping around for that right character, low, medium, or high tier.

 

[Shadow Huan]

being comfortable with the character you're playing is very important. I actually like Sheik vs Marth as Marth, because its a comfortable MU for me, even when I get ***** by a Sheik far beyond my skill level. Now, if i wanted to win, i love sheik dittoes even more, but I'm more comfortable as Marth most of the time. this computer's gonna kick me off I'll expand on this tomarrow I actually have a bit to say on this particular subject.

EDIT: I'm back. okay, the reason I got into competitive melee in the first place is because of seeing Taj's Mewtwo (SC2 will hold a special place in my heart lol). I started out fully intending to main Mewtwo with Marth as a secondary. This worked to some degree at first, but I found Marth to be better suited to my playstyle as I progressed. Since I've started having breakthroughs in my mindset/tech skill in January or so, I've picked up Ganon, C. Falcon, Sheik and I've secretly been learning Fox for a long time. I've competed with all these chars in tourny, doing moderately well, my own skill is the only thing holding me back atm. Dispite having a Marth that a player I'd never met before described as "Really good" @ my last tourny, in New England I'm known as a Mewtwo player. Why is that? Banks in maine told me when I was a scrub that he was more impressed with my M2 than any of the other chars I play. This is more or less based off of the teirs perhaps, what with M2 being "Bad".

Now that I'm done rambling/giving life story...

I got ***** by a jiggs @ my last tourny (Despite the other players compliment it was not a good outing for me.) then went to Mewtwo and did much much better loosing by only one stock @ high %s, to my own surprise and the surprise to everyone watching.

I have decided that for me, Mewtwo is my wildcard. Taj describes himself as a "reaction" player. My playstyle, if it was perfect, would go like this: I predict, I read, i find patterns, I punish.

I've decided not to make another Mewtwo combo video because the way that I play him isn't combo happy, i try to find my opponents "groove" and then disrupt it. I'm not focusing on the combo i'm going to do, I'm chipping away until I can get a kill. I don't play Mewtwo because I am trying to "prove he's a good char", because he's bottom of low teir @ best, I play him because when my Marth fails me, I have Mewtwo to back me up. for some reason I seem to punish patterns better with Mewtwo when I'm on point. I learned Ganon for fun, Falcon to deal with Falco and a few others (Sometimes works sometimes doesn't), Sheik to handle a Marth that's better than I am @ dittos and Falcon. i learned Mewtwo to play aginst everyone, in friendlies and tourny. sorry it's not coherent but in all that typing I lost my train of thought. X.X

 

[Taj278]

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

I know that if anyone asks me how I feel about the Marth vs. Sheik match-up, I'd tell them that it is ****ing ********, it's bull****, etc. However, from getting ***** by Forward's Sheik, I have a lot of confidence in the match-up with my Marth when I play against anyone else, and that's specifically because I know that they don't know me, and they don't quite know how to pick me apart like Forward does.

I'm certain that most people describe their playstyle in a similar pattern as SB2. Predict, read, find patterns, and punish. Almost everyone tends to pride themselves on their ability to "read" (which I still disagree with), and predict. There is a more positive feel to most people in being called a "mind games" player over say a "technical" player.

At which point is a technical player, less intelligent than a "mind games" player?

I joke around with Axe all the time when he says, "Nice read, Taj!" and I say, "Pffft, everyone knows nikkas can't read!" I'll post my opinions on the whole playstyle trinity thing later, but while I'm away, I'd like to read your guys' thoughts and reflections on what your genuine playstyle is really focused on. What are your strengths, what are the criteria that needs to be met to have that playstyle, and perhaps even how you would rate yourself in each category in scale of 1-10?

Example: Technical Skill: 7/10.

 

[jetfour]

My playstyle is a minimal fundamentally focused game. When I use Marth, fsmash and grab are my bread and butter. I focus mostly on spacing, observation and spontaneity.

I walk a lot since Marth has a fast walk. Walking allows for much more options at the last second than dashing or wavedashing. I stay at tipper distance. If they shield a lot then I'll just JC grab. I break it down to a simple rock-paper-scissors style of play but hope that I can predict their moves better than they can predict mine.

My tech skill: 6/10. I'm inconsistent with wavelands, L-cancels, and JCing. I probably do edgecancel more than a vast majority of players though.

Spontaneity: 8/10. I play for fun more than a consistent win. This translates to a high-risk high-reward play. I will edgeguard extremely aggressively where I can take their stock at a low percent even though I am risking my own. That strategy works well for me because I usually do it unexpectedly so they are not able to react as well, so the odds are in my favor.

Observation: 7/10. My conscious observation is low. But subconsciously my character feels like it knows what they're doing to do. I react well to tech and recovery patterns but am bad at simple DI patterns for combos.

Spacing: 8/10. I get phantom hits too often. I am very precise with character hitboxes and falling speeds.



Contrasting topic I want opinions on:

I don't really have a main. I spend a lot of time dispersed on 2/3 of the roster.

Sean, Chris, and plenty of other smashers always tell me that I would be such a great smasher if I focused my talents onto just one character.

My philosophy is that if I know how to play as a character well, then I'll know how to exploit weaknesses and strengths better in more match ups.

Also, after playing a character for a while, the progress curve flattens out. When learning how to play different characters well, you're able to incorporate some character-specific strategies for use with other characters. Like playing as Sheik helps you get comfortable off the edge, Samus helps you space and prioritize with ftilt, etc. It just makes things more fun and you're more motivated when you see more results, even though it's distributed through different characters.

Since my skill is distributed, I don't have a main that excels. I just generally choose whatever character I feel like and hope my diverse match up experience brings in what I need to win. Am I making a big mistake?

 

[Taj278]

You're definitely not making a big mistake here. I posted a little bit on this, but there is nothing wrong with playing multiple characters. I DO think that it is in your best interest to have a solid 2-3 character focus, so that all the intricacies of those characters are flawless and technical blunders happen less often.

I don't think there is any one way to learn to play this game, or any game for that matter, but most professional gamers do have their specialties. Versatility is a great weapon, even in games like Starcraft where there are only 3 races, the pros are still encouraged to practice at least one other race and keep up with the timings of their build orders.

In my experience, I've found that my alternate characters have good days and bad days, so if that's the route you're looking to go, if you're able to kind of find which characters feel right for you very quickly, that should help you out in determining what roster you want to bring to a tournament.

I would suggest narrowing down your character focus for now though, and having a solid 2-3 character rotation and work on a degree of mastery for those characters so that you can really develop your "creative" playstyle.

 

[zDuck]

sorry to disturb your chain of posts but this has to be one of the best threads on smashboards, it's very insightful and useful to all players

 

[Ch3s]

Long Rant on Why We are Better with Certain Characters

I play luigi, and i like to play this game alot, so i often sit in my room and practice tech skill with falco because i feel like i have hit a brick wall where my tech skill with luigi cant really be expanded. But every time i go somewhere and smash with someone, i find something else i need to improve on. Now im very new to smash (probably been to 8-10 tournies/smashfests max) so its highly probable that its just a result of lack of experience, but i find it fascinating that after 100s of hours of tech skill practice i still have things to work on. This is not really relevant other than to re-iterate how deep of a game melee is and the ability to always be improving some part of your game, even if you would give yourself a 10/10 on it.

Quite a few people have commented that i know way too much about frame data, as i really do sit on the forums memorizing it (i know most of M2K's thread by heart, lol) because I think it is really interesting to read frames and realize, for instance, that there are something on the order of 20 frames of invulnerability for falcos dair-> shine (minus hitstun, but this assuming you avoided the dair). The thing i discovered that was most important to me from learning all the frame data is that there isnt a move (or combination of moves) that is completely unavoidable, or for that matter hard to avoid with the proper knowledge and experience to avoid it. Im fairly certain that the elimination of weaknesses that Taj and the other people in this thread are talking about comes from first seeing through experience what i am starting to discover through frame data, and that is the vulnerability of even the top tiers "broken" moves. Then they use that experience to formulate plans to exploit this vulnerability, which they are able to do because they have a feel for all of their characters moves. Once a person "feels" an enemies move they are able to decide on the move that counters it because they have experience with their own moves, and can decide which move is the best counter. and find an effective counter for it, while still focusing on the match at hand. Before I go over the skills that I believe make up this ability to counter approaches, it is important to note that all of smash is simply approaching and defending approaches, because even things like combos are simply knowing how to approach hit stun (although it also requires character skill, which I will go over later). All of a person’s approaches are learned from one of three basic tools, which I deem “player skills,” but are really just an accumulation of knowledge about the game. Note: This does not include tech skill partially because I cover it more later, and partially because it doesn’t separate the good from the best like these do.

“Feeling”: This is the hardest skill to define. I think a good example of good feeling is what people typically refer to as “adapting.” I’m sure we’ve all seen the Genesis commentary where they exclaim that Armada “adapts like a mother effer.” He experiences all of his opponents approaches, and while playing the match he is able to decide the best way to counter the approach, because he has a great feel for the game and for his characters options. Most people try to adapt, even beginners try to learn how to get around spam, and the best players are often the best because they are able to do it much quicker, a skill I attribute to having a good “feel” for the game.

“Outside Sources”: This is the easiest of the skills to define, and could almost be considered more of a tool. This is what the Smash Boards are for, sharing information about the best approaches and ways to beat strategies. This is the reason why people who are around extremely strong players get better more quickly, because they have strong outside sources teaching them how to approach and avoid things so that they don’t have to learn themselves. Outside sources are very important because even the best players don’t always develop the perfect counters, and there are always people improving on your own ideas even if you are the best (think of this thread, Taj is making brilliant points but still being forced to elaborate and expand his own theory due to other posters).

“Trial and Error”: This is the experience, the skill that comes with time. The other two skills can be thought of as the things that take a person’s game further faster, they increase the speed at which someone improves. This is the skill that ensures that as long as you think about the game, you will improve. You learn to deal with falco’s laser pressure (my personal vendetta at the moment), or you learn to get through marth’s sword after trying hundreds of ways and finding the most successful ones and repeating them. I like that Umbreon mentioned the moves that simply “cannot be countered.” For the higher tier characters, there are so many more options that come during this stage, it often makes improving with them quicker as Axe mentioned. It also means that “cheap” tactics take much longer to get around with low tiers, but I firmly believe that every character has a way to get around these tactics.

An overview of the skills as they relate to low tier vs. top tier players: As I have expressed, many people pick top tiers because it gives them an advantage in the trial and error section. Now I may have made it seem like all of these skills are used to improve over time, but at the highest level, what often determines the winner is how well these skills can be used mid match. Pros use feeling and outside information to minimize possible counters to only the few they think will work, then trial and error mid match till they find a solution. So the better you are, the further you can learn to minimize these possible counters and minimize the time spent in the Trial and Error phase, commonly referred to as “feeling out” the opponent. Watching their approaches and avoiding them, only getting one hit at a time until you find a way to approach that allows for a combo, or edge guard, or kill or whatever.
Note: None of these skills are developed if you don’t think while smashing,but if you don’t think while smashing chances are you either play fox and outmaneuver people with tech skill, or you probably don’t go very far, or in most cases both.

Now obviously the next part of my theory needs to discuss “character skill,” which is what places a character in their spot on the tier list, and the unique things that define a character. One of the simplest things are all the characters “stats,” I suppose you could call them that anyways, such as their weight, fall speed, and size. Another thing that comes to mind immediately, especially being a luigi player, is the length of their wavedash. I’ll avoid naming everything that makes a character unique, because there are many, but wavedashing is a good example for my purpose, which is to make the distinct separation between character skill and player skill. Luigi has the ability to wavedash further than anyone in the game, but he can also wavedash shorter than most in the game if the player chooses. This does not matter, it is simply his ability to wavedash so far that is his unique trait, and whether he does so or not is the players choice. Perhaps a better example is comboing. If comboing is a character skill, then why is it that some players combo much better than others? Comboing is a combination of player and character skill, and both play a large role in it. So what exactly is the character part of a combo? Hopefully most of us have seen the pichu and falcon TAS matches on youtube. You don’t have to watch closely to notice that pichu uses almost entirely his up air and nair during the fight. He isn’t necessarily comboing the whole time, but whenever he does he is probably using one of these moves. This is because the character skill part of any characters combos are the moves that CAN be used to combo. You can’t combo after jigglypuff’s rest, no matter how good you are, and often times the better the character the more moves you can combo with. Pichu has only nair and uair (yeah, yeah ICG there are more, but he has considerably fewer moves to combo with, and most of them only in certain situations), while if you watch the falcon match, almost all of his moves are used, because they have some sort of combo potential. Once a move that can be used in a combo is performed, player skill takes over. Think of the player skill part as having to know how to “approach a character in hit stun,” and then it goes back to the player skills that teach a player the proper way to approach to continue the combo. Other examples of character skill are move priority, range, and movement speed. As the combo example points out, most of smashing combines, in some way or another, player skill and character skill.

I think the piece of advice Taj gave me that is the most helpful comes from when i asked how low tier mains can do so well, specifically when i watch people like Ka-Master and dont understand how he wins with only 50 attacks (i watched one match where he beat someone with only 50 attacks, not landed attacks, but total attacks). Taj told me something that seems obvious, especially after something like that, but it really seemed to click with the way i look at the game. He said that low tier mains are extremely efficient. He didnt elaborate, but ive tried to elaborate what i think efficient is, and it has created a goal for me that i want to acheive with luigi.

Efficiency can be thought of as the combination of player skill and character skill, and it is what causes people like Taj to play lower tier characters and have more success with them. The best way ive found to interpret how to be efficient is to think of all the different parts of the game that Taj asked about having us rate. But first, think of the story of David and Goliath, David is offered a sword and armor (top tiers), but instead feels more comfortable with his slingshot (low tiers). It can be said that David was more efficient with his slingshot, because he knew it better, and he could not have beaten Goliath with a sword and shield and armor. The first thing that popped into my head upon hearing Taj's advice was what i now consider technical efficiency. This could include perfect wavedashing, combos that are executed for maximum damage or to get a KO, and perfectly executing OOS options like grabbing a falco out of pillar (I think it was possible, but even if not you get the point I suppose). So there is:

“Technical Efficiency”: Aside from the things commonly considered tech skill such as the kind found in Silent Wolf and Lovage’s videos, there is spacing, a combination of character range, the players knowledge of that range, and his technical ability to stay at that perfect range from his opponent. (also as pointed out in a recent video teaching spacing, the opponents character’s range and spacing is important to know, but that doesn’t have as much to do with this thread).

“Mental Efficiency”: This is probably the most relevant part of the post to this whole thread, as it is the main thing that decides which character a person is most comfortable with. Now if you think about all of the different player skills, and using them mid match, it’s hard enough just to do that, but you also have to pay attention to character skill. Part of this is where people tell you to get perfect at movement without thinking about it, and to learn your characters spacing. But other things are involved, such as starting and continuing combos, and something I talked about earlier, being comfortable with all of your characters options. This can either happen by training yourself to react properly (Forward told me to stop jumping out of shield and roll more against a falco approaching with an nair or dair), or it can come naturally. THE MORE THAT COMES NATURALLY TO YOU, THE MORE MENTALLY EFFICIENT YOU WILL BE WITH THAT CHARACTER. I think this is the biggest reason why some people do better with one character or another. If your natural reaction is to avoid your opponent and rack up damage, you probably would do well with samus, falco, or fox. However, if you tried that with falcon, you wouldn’t land many hits. If you’re response to a tactic is to pressure your opponent so hard they can’t do it, you would probably be great with falco, and not as good with samus. Obviously I’m being too generic, because many people have much more specific natural reactions to things, and the character you will naturally do best with is usually decided by how many of your own natural reactions produce good results. Now when you think about all the different natural reactions, you start to realize that the higher up on the tier list you go, you will find that the characters can cater to multiple natural reactions and still do well, because their options simply work better. Fox is a prime example, you have some people like Jman who like to run away and laser to rack up damage, and that works great as fox. But then you also have people like Lucky who prefers to use tech skill and fox’s great speed to pressure the opponent. I don’t think I will ever see a successful Mewtwo that spams shadowballs till 50 percent, because that option just doesn’t work well with Mewtwo, BUT Mewtwo does have the character skill that allows him to avoid his opponent by moving around the stage, and instead of slowly building damage, he avoids and waits, then builds it all at once. His combos are not as easy as shiek’s, but because he is able to rest and observe with his avoidance moves, all of the focus can be put into comboing once he gets a hit. Tony has expressed that this style fits him very well. Tony also expressed to me that he hates playing Yoshi, because he plays a strong out of shield game. Almost all of Mewtwo’s good combos stem from grabs, and shadow claws, so the fact that Tony can do both of those out of shield very quickly makes Mewtwo natural to him. This is probably also why his other characters are so weird. He has to decide with his other characters to either focus on playing them how the metagame dictates and lose some of his player skill because he is focused on character skill, or play with his natural player skill and lose some of his character skill. I could go on, but this is long enough as is  .

There are other things that I would count as efficiency, such as focus (things like not conversing, and not drinking *cough* or you’ll lose to kage *cough*), but they don’t have as much to do with the combination of player and character skill.

Unfortunately most of this is simply theory coming from a bored kid, but I feel that it has some validity to it based upon the times I’ve had the privilege of listening to and picking Taj's brain about smash. I’m curious to hear if you guys think there are any things I missed for a players skill (aside from the stereo typical things like reading and predicting, which I believe come from the different types of player skills I listed). I know this is long and confusing but I’d love to try and clarify anything if it doesn’t make sense.

Edit: If anyone actually reads this congratulations lol, trust me i was very bored, and yes i do realize im just putting new names on old ideas here but allwell

 

[Wobbles]

I forgot what kind of a Falco I am. It's not a mindgames Falco, a technical Falco, OR a reaction Falco. Not even an instinct Falco. I think I was a spacing Falco? Can't remember.

Hmm... what skills benefit the ICs? They're already a character that exerts tremendous pressure on the opponent just by existing. I think one of the main reasons people hate playing me so much is for the same reason Fox and Falco hate fighting Peach. Technically they have lots of advantages, but if you're not constantly asserting those advantages or you flub one small thing, you can eat a LOT of punishment. I fight almost any character and I'm constantly on the ropes... until the other guy gets a bit too cocky and throws out a dumb aerial, or he panics and rolls right into my mittens. And since they are kind of tough to combo, it means good DI and smart CC forces the other guy to guess and play right a lot more than you do. Keep yourself in situations where it's tough to get solid punishes on you, and then pressure them into that dumb move that loses them a stock. A lot like Jiggs in this regard, I think.

I used to think that I was really good at reading people and seeing patterns, but I think it's better to say that I'm good at luring and baiting responses that I can plan for in advance. ICs have lots of little tricks and deceptions. The level of knowledge you need to incorporate them all is tremendous. Fighting them properly also requires lots of knowledge and patience, and it's easy to fluster the other guy because he can't tell what the hell you're doing. You can screw with their DI, charge two different smashes at once, grab and attack at the same time, cross half the level from your shield, roll away while still hitting them... and when you get trapped in a blizzard or you do a dumb tech-roll because you didn't expect to get hit, the grab comes and ruins your day.

They require a different form of technical skill than other characters; you just need to be able to execute a few things properly throughout the entire match, and when you get your grabs focus on specific timing rather than a series of rapid motions. This works for me personally because I have tremors and my hands shake like crazy, and I also don't focus very well. I tend to screw up with lots of quick movements, so executing specific timings that I can practice on my own is much better for me.

Surprisingly enough, losing Nana becomes something of an advantage for me too. The other guy becomes more cocky and more aggressive, but at the same time I suddenly become more maneuverable and evasive. I get a LOT more hits in with Solo Popo than I do when I'm doubled up, because I don't have to worry about managing my lovable (but very stupid) AI resource. And of course, the other guy doesn't realize that I'm actually chipping away and winning the stock, and every time they let me get a dumb edge-hog or I b-air them from a double jump at 40% and they DI down, it makes them angrier. Soon I have Nana AGAIN, and the odds of them making panicked decisions from mental pressure grows as the match goes on.

I try and find ways to force critical errors from the other guy so that I can get away with making more mistakes throughout the match, then steal a stock away from them in one moment. Again, this is part of why people don't like fighting me or my character much, and I'm honestly okay with that

Another good parallel character is Zangief, who spends most of the match getting shut out, and when he finds his way in he gets that big damage that evens it all out. Except that now he's in your grill and piledriving it.

This is a good thread and you should feel good, Taj. Out of curiosity, what players can you think of that have the most opposite skillset from you? Or who focus on things you don't do well, but can't seem to do stuff that you excel at? Besides me and reacting, of course ;p

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Che3 your about right for normal pichu combos sometimes I start stuff with thunder and other up moves.

but at wobbles losing nana helps lots for an ice climber main or at least for me my miond can slow down and focus much better and my spacing feels much safer and better. really I feel much more in control with only popo. Also why I hate fighting peach is because not from the uber easy punishment fair d-smash half stock as pichu. but because of the lack of being able to approach right. I wish I played against you at POE3 so I could figure how bad pichu gets ***** vs ice climbers I can only think of it being worse than sheik because I'm starting to feel confortable about fighting sheik as pichu all a matter of baiting and edge gaurd because sheik is only thinking about grabs and I know they will fail because the more you grab the less you land.

may be it's the same thing but I wish My brother would let me play as the ice climbers I don't chain throw but I camp and d-smash spam beyond what he can deal with I simply WD around and wait to make him wiff.

 

[Taj278]

I forgot what kind of a Falco I am. It's not a mindgames Falco, a technical Falco, OR a reaction Falco. Not even an instinct Falco. I think I was a spacing Falco? Can't remember.

If I remember correctly, you called yourself a "Random Bull****" Falco.

This is a good thread and you should feel good, Taj. Out of curiosity, what players can you think of that have the most opposite skillset from you? Or who focus on things you don't do well, but can't seem to do stuff that you excel at? Besides me and reacting, of course ;p

That's a tough question. I haven't really tested everyone's reaction times or anything, but from observation, I would say that the general top Falco population (DSW, Lovage, Chops), and Falcon mains. For example, when I see Shiz go for that down air tech roll reverse forward smash, it is something that he does as a part of his pattern. It is a pretty static pattern, very effective, something that hits most people, but it isn't something that uses reaction to make it 100% guaranteed.

Falcon mains also tend to tech chase with a lot of prediction in mind. They cover multiple options, but they're also not techchasing with the assumption that it is guaranteed. Since I get easily "out teched" when I play Falco dittos, or when I play Falcon, my style with other characters is noticeably different. My other characters have been called bootlegged or even downright ugly despite the efforts I've placed in my characters. I don't have the techskill or knowledge base to play in orthodox ways, so I ultimately have to make my style unorthodox to maximize my strengths. I like to use down throw tech chases a lot as Fox and Falco, my Falcon does the ugliest, yet efficient tech chases.

My Mewtwo and, to a lesser extent, my Marth are the only characters that appear to have a "respectable" style even though my Mewtwo is trademarked and I love techchasing with Marth, too.

Ch3s brought up two good points about efficiency, both technical and mental. The main reason I play the way that I do, is that I never want to go outside of my comfort zone. Whenever I feel slightly nervous about doing something that could compromise my character's stock or safety, I won't attempt it unless it is critical to ensuring a stock. If the opponent is at such a level that I feel that I must go "outside of myself" and gamble on riskier plays, then the only exception to the rule would be experimentation in friendlies or if the match win is secure.

I would like to ask all of you guys for your opinions on what kind of criteria would accurately represent the majority of the smash players in regards to categories of skill.

Starcraft had community polls and pro player polls rating their fellow players in these categories:

Offense
Defense
Micro
Macro
Control
Star Quality (Popularity)

I would really like to see Melee matches evolve to the level of Starcraft commentary, spectating, and analysis.

Going with similar stats to apply to Melee, I think we can all agree on these:

Offense
Defense
Technical Skill (Control)
Intelligence (Mind Games)
Creativity
Star Quality

I'm not sure I can really apply my own style of "Reaction" as a player statistic because it is something that is applied applied to the first five attributes. Even though I don't consider myself to be a particularly smart player, I do think about the game a lot when I'm not playing.

I think the criteria for what will be a 9 or 10 will constantly change as people retire and get better, but for now I think we should use top players that we are all familiar with as a benchmark for a 10 in each category.

Offense (Spacing/Shield Pressure/ Edgeguarding): Mango-10

Defense (Punish/Recovery): Hbox-10? I could use suggestions here

Techskill(Control): Armada/Zhu/Axe/SW/Lovage/M2K(07?) Maybe some more suggestions here as well, since this can be biased towards specific characters. Though, I think that players with the most effective APM with the least errors would constitute a 10. A 10 should be very special.

Intelligence (Mind Games): Forward/Wobbles/Amsah/ Can't think of others right now, who would you rate as a 10?

Creativity: Mango/Armada - 10

Star Quality: Armada?/DSW/Silent Spectre - 10 People that always seem get the crowd hyped.

Once we establish a human benchmark, we can rate each individual player in each category, and possibly have other pros rate eachother and compare the results, and if they're similar, then I'd say we have a fair and accurate representation of a player's overall stats.

If you guys think some attibutes should be changed or attitude, please post your thoughts! :D

 

[Jim Morrison]

I have no idea how you can even begin to rate arbitrary aspects of people like that.
You can just see who's pretty good at it, but putting a number on it?

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

also something I think should be noticed in melee if play like darkrain or someone uber sexy people will cheer you on no matter what same if your an under dog on the tier list normally.

however if you are playing as ofx simply laser camping in a way that is impossible to hit like fox vs kirby on JK64 or something people may boo you and make you lose your grip. Your rewarded for playing sexy.

 

[Taj278]

I have no idea how you can even begin to rate arbitrary aspects of people like that.
You can just see who's pretty good at it, but putting a number on it?

Right, these are extremely subjective numbers that will vary from person to person, but it is clear that some people are better in each category than others. This is mostly just for fun and to encourage a little more scrutiny on playstyles and our understanding of the top players in general.

@ICG, right. That's why I said it's popularity. If people often cheer against you, your popularity must then be lower.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

WTF go to smash boards to increase your skill post epic things so everyone cheers for you at the tournment no worder H-box is on here so much. That's amazing.