Q&A Mewtwo Philosophy - Q&A Ask Away

[Ch3s]

What would you rate your mewtwo Taj? If I had to rate you it would be something along the lines of:

Offense: 8 (no doubt your spacing is great but you dont use your offense as much)
Defense: 10 (9 3/4 if i directly compared you to Hbox, but thats hard cause Mewtwo doesnt punish as hard as rest)
Tech Skill: 9 (this seems the hardest to rate, because you arent SW, but i dont see you screw up ever)
Intelligence: 9 (the problem with this is ive heard you talk outside the game, so its kind of biased that i know youre super smart, but i would also say that your gameplay is very mindgame based).
Creativity: 7 (I feel like this is the lowest you can give to a pro, but also as creative as you COULD BE, you even said yourself that you prefer to use what works, e.g. you study combos to see what strings together best. With all your other skills where they are, this skill being low is balanced out).
Star Quality: 9 (Cali is gonna root for cali, if people wanna use the SS example to say you arent popular or whatever, but biases aside who doesnt root for a big black mewtwo :D )

I like the idea of this, but some things need to be elaborated on. What would you rate yourself and give the criteria, i think that will help us to understand how to think when rating. At the very least its a good way to examine a person before the game. My biggest question is the star quality one, because Cali people are more popular, because there are more cali people to root for them, so how do we eliminate regional biases. Character biases are half of what create popularity, so idk if we get rid of those?

 

[Taj278]

Word.

I just thought I'd propose the idea for now. Perhaps we're not quite ready for a system like the GOMTV Starcraft league's rating system. First, I think we have to really understand the skills required to legitimately win at this game. In hindsight, Timing would probably be another skill, but that can easily fall in line with Techskill/Offense.

Oh well, I guess I'll just have to think about it more since it is pretty confusing. Starcraft numbers work out, because the criteria are based on the top players. Jaedong gets a 10 in offense and a 10 in defense because he is ****ing insane and can win with builds that should get completely ***** by counter builds. He'll do a 12 hatch in a Zerg vs. Zerg and win against a 9 pool gas, which is a hard counter to fast expand builds. Usually the best players often get 10s in Star Quality, but personality, looks, and their involvement with the community have a lot to do with it.

Silent Spectre doesn't post at all, but I guarantee he is a fan favorite in any region. DSW is also popular enough to squelch the chants across regions. Armada gets plenty of cheers unless he's up against America's most popular players and characters. Even without cheers, specifically, it is someone that has a flair about them, or the glow of a champion. I can't wait until Axe gets his top 3 finish at an international tourney, he's so humble and modest that I think everyone would cheer for him, too.

I have no idea what to rate my Mewtwo, I'm just a "washed-up has been." (TML)

Really though, maybe this game doesn't work with this system, because there are 26 characters. If everyone was forced to play Fox/Falco/Sheik, and that was all we had, then it would be a lot easier to rate players. Perhaps a different approach is necessary.

New question, what do you guys think about Melee becoming more than just a cult following? I know that we all love the game, but how do we show the world how amazing this game is, and just how amazing the players are as well?

 

[Jim Morrison]

I don't think it's important to show the world how amazing the game and how amazing the players are.
If people want to learn about it and join the community, they're always welcome to, but I'm not going to be like "hey dude check this out, bro, look at this video, check out how amazing they are".

TBH, just replace game with God and players with followers and you'll get exactly what religion is in the sentence you used. I'm not a big fan of religion being "pushed on to me", so I really don't feel like I should do it with other people with a video game.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I have asked some players about where they come how they were taught and stuff like i've asked teran about how they in england were taugh about their country and WW2 I picked out a few small details there I really wasn't taught and I thought it was neat.

Also As huge as melee is I doubt it could be called a part of cult ot's like a hobble in a way but it isn't a massively huge one like 1st person shooters or starcraft it's like saying a small gameing group is kindof it's own cult different from other video gamers.

I do somewhat think it is culyure but not melee by it's self other than maybe east/west coast. I however think video games shopuld require more thinking last time I tryed to play a 1st person shooter nothing was going thought my head and I was doing decent and my brother started laughing at me because I looked ********, like if you look at people playing some games or tv you can't even tell if they are not ****** or not.


But when you play chess or melee you mad serious like curing cancer. really I would nearly go as far to say I hate like 99% of all video games. Most of it you shouldn't ever play and it gves people bad habits. It's funner to go outside and play with your friends when your little or older.

 

[Taj278]

I don't think it's important to show the world how amazing the game and how amazing the players are.
If people want to learn about it and join the community, they're always welcome to, but I'm not going to be like "hey dude check this out, bro, look at this video, check out how amazing they are".

TBH, just replace game with God and players with followers and you'll get exactly what religion is in the sentence you used. I'm not a big fan of religion being "pushed on to me", so I really don't feel like I should do it with other people with a video game.

TLDR- I like the game and want it to become a popular E-sport. Just like any activity, religion, sport, or otherwise, you want people to participate and even if YOU don't want to share it with the world, I DO. It's like saying, "Stop trying to force underwater basketweaving onto me," when they're handing out flyers and showing videos of them doing what they like to do. I don't see how there is anything wrong with telling your friends to check out Melee and watch Wombo Combo and see what the community is like.


I had a huge wall of text to spam at you for this, but I'll just leave it at this for now. If you want me to further clarify my point, then I will.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Forced is when you say do it or esle like south america like in 1600s.

I ask people if they play or have and try to get people to play with me never like i'll kill you or anything.

 

[Taj278]

Right, the issue I have is that my sentence could be replaced with anything. Let's make a Mad Lib out of it!

"I know that we all love cake but how do we show the world how amazing this cake is, and just how amazing the bakers are as well?

Oh noes, don't force your sweet cake loving ideals onto me, BRO! Just because the sentence works for religion doesn't mean it is bad.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

also it's what you believe for the rest of your life is what religion is. That's totally different. I had this mormen guy trying make me join his church i told him I believed in God and I didn't want one of his hand outs also I didn't even live around there so I couldn't gp to his church he didn't seem to understand no matter what he did I wasn't going to take his little handout.

it's simply letsing people try somethiong new I tryed CoD the new one and hated so much, however I did try it WTf I never held a xbox controller in my life and I nearly beat my brother at the game who has been playing since it came out.

Also I try to get people to pick up l]ichu. I don't force that s***.


more on topic than ever now with less pichu.

hey taj when I play Bushido blade(old PS1 game) I use a move that is somewhat harmless but can still cut off their arm or something and it forces them to use their defences if they want be smart, however using my speed with the saber I can cut down their options to near nothing so they are forced you take a hit and let me be in control or carefully give up space and lose their current spacing which puts them in danger still. However all taking careul spaceing(sword fighting game).


so basically what i'll do is to carefully weave in and outr of their space and bait their attacks if they wiff I can come in with my attack to mess them up kindof like pichus nair I can mess with their spacing and sit on the edge messing with all day and if i'm forced I can projectile my way in.

however do you think m2 has any traps like this? I'd like to hear about some traps that you can force people in with small mistakes that increase pressure and control.

 

[Taj278]

Mewtwo's neutral air is probably the only thing I can really think of that people need to guard against in order to not get owned. Usually landing the neutral air in some way is how I get the ball rolling on stage control and damage anyway. I really want to find a digital artist so I can make some cool Mewtwo tutorials, I have a few ideas I want to convey, but I'm not sure how to really do it.

 

[Life]

While not normally a Melee player I happened upon this amazing thread, and I must comment. (From here, when I use "Smash" as a singular noun, it refers to all competitive SSB play, Brawl/Melee/64 alike; really, it could probably be substituted for any multiplayer game played competitively.)

If Smash in general is to become more popular, perhaps some old Smash fan needs to get a job in mainstream media. Think about it: "Gaming: The Other Side of the Story". What does the public think of "hardcore gamers"? Do they even know we exist? Are we considered just nerd stereotypes? Sociopaths? Can't get a date? How many know just how much deeper gaming is? Would you (as a random person, not a smasher) have your interest piqued if some media member offered a (cough educated cough) look into this little world we've made? It probably doesn't even need to be Smash-specific, it just needs to be there.

<digression relating Smash to Yu-gi-oh; feel free to skip if you're low on time>

As a Yugioh player I've been thinking about stuff like this for a while. Everyone's favorite "children's card game" has virtually no PR in America outside the "4kids-ed" anime (or I'm just missing it from not paying attention). The game (and probably most TCGs) is similar to Smash in that there's a lot of thought going in; we call it "Theory-oh" sometimes instead of theorycraft. For example (you might have to play the game to get a couple of these), "How can I stop this OTK field with X, Y, and Z in-hand? Should I go for game or wait for my Heavy Storm? Is my opponent cheating, and if so am I able to prove it to a judge for an autowin or do I have to just beunusually vigilant? How do I prepare for deck, strategy, or card Q? Should I play deck X, Y, or Z? Do I Synchro Summon for X or Y? Do I risk destroying one back-row to avoid Starlight Road, or do I risk hitting them both to avoid Mirror Force? Will I be hit with Gorz if I hit into that open field? What's the chance of getting X combo or Y card in my opening hand? What do I use Solemn Judgment on? Which series of plays will grant me the biggest card/lifepoint advantage?" Maybe it's not quite as deep as Smash--luck is a much bigger factor, obviously. The point is, Smash and YGO are both games with both a casual level and a competitive level (I've seen YGO regional tournaments get 170+ players, for reference), which tend to stay out of the public's eye at best or are laughed out of the room at worst. So, despite being new to high-level Smash, I've actually thought about this subject for some time. And perhaps the two fanbases, along with the--what, hundreds maybe?--of fanbases in similar situations need to pool ideas.

</digression>

What can Smash do to become mainstream once again? The answer may be in advertising. "Hey, playing Smash with really good players is awesome! See this combo? Pretty cool, eh? Come to our tournaments sometime, and you can learn what goes into this amazing game and maybe even play a few rounds yourself!" Or it might be a more "slow-news-cycle story" thing. (I, for one, got interested in Smash after Nintendo Power wrote an article about how Melee was still popular years after its release. Horrible explanation of how to wavedash and all.) Perhaps I'm wrong and games like Smash need entirely different conditions to become mainstream? Or is it the society that needs to change, and not the gamers? Refer to all the stereotypes above. Can we really do much when we're viewed like that? Dangit, most of us are otherwise normal people with lives and yet nobody sees us that way, to the point where some folks (maybe this is a bigger YGO problem, IDK) feel the need to lie about their gaming, practically leading a double life! But is that their problem for trying to hard to please others by acting as someone else (or, by not being open, letting only the stereotype-examples game openly) or is it society's inability to accept "nerds"?

I wish to elaborate, but it's getting late and an early wake-up call is tomorrow's fate. (and a bunch of other things that rhyme with "ate")

Spoiler

*prays I didn't just make myself look idiotic*

 

[Taj278]

No, that was an excellent post. :D I remember hearing about Magic: The Gathering having a pretty big following with large tournaments and consistent winners, and you have games like Poker, which is even more accessible world-wide and popularized. I couldn't have imagined Poker being as huge of a spectator sport as it is today. I don't really watch it much, but I was curious and browsed clips of some top players making crazy plays. I don't really know much about the game or even how to play, but I can assume that there was a lot of thought placed into their decisions.

Obviously, SSBM is fun and interesting for us to watch, because we play and understand the game and how people are doing things. Starcraft is televised nationally to millions of Koreans and is an extremely popular game. I'm positive that not every South Korean plays Starcraft, but just like me, they don't play it, but they like to watch the matches.

E-sports in the US are already years behind, I think you're right, and we need to solve this problem through the media. KillaOR on MTV was a great start, shows like that America's Top Gamer thingy on G4... is not. Group of people competing to become a GAME TESTER... like it's a dream job, lol.

Oh yeah, I think our economy didn't help either as a lot of sponsorships dropped their pro players and stopped sending them to events, too.

Overall, I think we need a massive overhaul of media and DEVELOPER support in their respective gaming communities in order to make progaming more accessible and visually pleasing enough to televise and form businesses out of it.

For now... Let's talk more about Melee. Recently, Scorpion *Coughmangcough* excuse me, Master has been fooling around with Mario and is only losing to the best players on the West Coast.

I've talked to Tai about this a little bit, but some people would feel insulted or annoyed if someone busted out a weak character on them in friendlies, especially if it isn't their main. Most people wouldn't mind as long as it is in tournament, but I'm certain it is a crushing blow to your psyche to lose to someone playing a weaker character.

Most of the average tournament goers probably wouldn't be too phased by losing to someone of Scorpion Master's caliber, but if it were someone even more random that came out of nowhere and just owned with Pichu, not because Pichu is any good, but because they COULD, how would you handle it?

When I was exploring the idea of a person's best character based on attributes, I also need to reiterate the strength of the player. We are all aware that skill > tiers. We are aware that some characters are better than others. What I think that we all forget, is that you have to play against the PLAYER first. You have to beat the player before you beat the character.

I know this is obvious, but the point I'm trying to make is that we shouldn't feel ashamed or irritated or even surprised if we lose to a Doc, Link, Mario, Kirby, G&W. There are many reasons why it could happen or it happens consistently. These characters are a part of the game, and the game has enough depth to allow them to be played if desired.

When your scrub friend is getting ***** and then silent johns and changes to a tertiary main like Bowser, M2, Ness, or Yoshi, it might be to preserve their pride from losing with their main, it might be from boredom, or it might be a whim. Whatever the reason, even if you're probably going to **** them even harder, even if you choose not to respect their character (which I actually support as a viable mindset, more on this later. ), you should always respect the player.

You never know when they might find what they're looking for in that character and opt to main them. In AZ, V3ctorman is enjoying maining Yoshi, Axe's ICs are actually really good and could be even better than his Pikachu if he chose to develop them, Tai maining Marth with success, and I can still play Sheik after years of neglect.

Next time, I'm going to touch on player talent pools a bit more, but how do you guys feel about your opponents messing around with other characters in friendlies/seriouslies?

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

care less about others thoughts they aren't more important than yours so why should I bash you?

I think you have to think more about
HOw/who you advertise melee to. best group I THINK. bralwers, hardcore gamers, little kids, and people who like tactic games like chess or I geuss starcraft. Also whow are you going to make those groups want to play this game? What parts need to be highlighted? To chess players maybe you could show the many lines or defence and offesce and making them pay for their mistakes with combos or overall control the quick focus needed like at times I need extra focus like when i'm messing with my brother as falco I'm pressureing him making him think he can't touch me making me seem like i'm 3 times better than I am. Then I tioghen my focus to grab him out of side-B to f-throw so he feels it's impossible and loses faith and I just 4 stock him even if we can tarde stocks for the most part If I focus for a little bit at the begging very carefully and just destroy everythin he throws out he will have all really lost.



At taj on pride I MMed lori I didn't know it was lori till I played I got 4 stocked and I called my own mistakes as I played lke bad DI and etc. I got 4 stocked by his m2/pichu and when he pulled out ness I totally refused to get 4 stocked by ness no matter how amazing of a ness he was it was the only match I didn't get 4 stocked which I also find funny because zhu I played falco dittos with and pichu vs pikachu and he wasn't able to 4 stock me at POE3. I just think it's odd I had so much pride I would do anything not to get 4 stocked by a ness when I have timed out people there. Also I suck I don't care what people tell me. But beating the player is what I do to my brother I'll adapted to fast for him so I can 4 stock him sometimes and I can easily tell if he has a chance at winning early on in the match.

just things that came to my head.

 

[jetfour]

Tony, did you read through my rants with Spencer in the Tucson thread? Basically this topic. Haha. For the sake of nonAZ people peeking into just this thread, I'll copy and paste select quotes here. I say "you" in this post because I was speaking to someone specific.


A main reason why I'm good at this game is because I can use different characters, good or bad and pull out victories. Using ****ty ol' Ness refines my spacing and most importantly, lets me know his strengths and weakness firsthand so I know how to play against him. A sort of reverse empathy if you will. You didn't always fare well because you aren't comfortable with the matchup. By playing as Ness, I am able to observe your strengths and weakness too so I know what to abuse and avoid when I play as a spacie. So in playing as Ness I'm preventing getting myself from getting destroyed in the future by a skilled Ness by being prepared. If there's no talented Ness for me to practice against, the next best thing to do is to develop my own Ness and utilize that knowledge.

Like if you play Axe a lot, you'll naturally be better at Pikachu from picking up his habits. If you play as Pikachu a lot, you'll know what weaknesses to exploit against Axe.

I don't care if you like playing a ****ty character or not, this is why I play ****ty characters and it is definitely useful. It prepares you and it prepares me.

Ness mains aren't running around. But it's still good to be prepared for when a smart player randomly pulls out a back-up Ness because they think the opponent will be unprepared. Which is basically what I've done with Tucson. I've won some match-ups as Ness harder than I usually win with Marth. If I were to travel OoS and lose to a random Ness due to a lack of experience, I'd be frustrated. Since I've tried to prepare, I at least know I've done what I could instead so if that were to happen I wouldn't be so angry.

 

[Banks]

I think most people don't like to play other people's "****ty" characters because they automatically take it as a pseudo-insult in that the person thinks they can beat their **** TIER character with a crappy one. Also it is a win-win in the mental aspect for them because if they lost it's because "I used (insert crappy char)" and if they win then "LOL THEY LOST TO MY (insert crappy char)"

on the flipside of that, the same people will not mind at all if it is known that their opponent actually attempts to use that character in serious matches regularly

[personally as a sheik main i'm confident sheik auto-***** crappy characters lmfao]

 

[Taj278]

Actually, I didn't read your posts about Spencer, Jackie.

I agree with Banks, to the person picking the ****ty characters it is win-win and it can be insulting if the justification for playing like that is insinuated. However, Jetfour has a good point in promoting versatility. I don't feel any less of a person if I lost to Axe's Kirby, Mario, Marth/whatever. I've changed my mindset towards players picking other characters, and I think I've gotten healthier smash sessions, because of it.

The moral of my post is to promote healthier and fun smash sessions between players promoting positive development through any means. If it is easier to cope with losing by playing a weaker character or an unfamiliar character, that's at your discretion, but it should flow both ways. Don't be mad that I cheesed you out your Falco with Link's Up B, and I shouldn't rub in a win with a weaker character just because I won a lopsided match-up. Matches vary because people vary. Some days or matches you can be on, others... you can be slumping.

All I'm requesting is that we acknowledge that it's the player first and the character second. I like to promote positive smash sessions and growth. Have you guys ever had uncomfortably negative smash sessions, where either one of you seems hostile?

 

[ChivalRuse]

I get pretty salty if someone beats me and then switches characters before I have a chance to redeem myself in that particular matchup. I also sometimes feel cheated, because I get the impression that they're trying to deny me experience vs their character by switching.

It's obviously partially my fault. I should really request them to stay characters, if I want a rematch. Something always seems to prevent me from doing so, though.

 

[Ch3s]

^^ This brings up a good point. What are your thoughts on asking someone to play their main? or a secondary that you want to play? Only during friendlies of course, but do you think it is impolite or not your choice, because sometimes i want to play against someones main.

 

[Jim Morrison]

All I'm requesting is that we acknowledge that it's the player first and the character second. I like to promote positive smash sessions and growth. Have you guys ever had uncomfortably negative smash sessions, where either one of you seems hostile?

A lot of the time, and it's mostly me that gets like that. I really get upset when I get beaten by my friend (plays Falcon) as Donkey Kong, but try not to show it. I play worse and worse, stop talking to them and be like meh :/.

But inside I'm like GRHUAAUIHGAUISHGUIA FFFFFFFFUUUUUUUU WHY DOES THAT UTHROW > KNEE ALWAYS WORK. (sometimes this comes outside as well teehee)

I always feel bad when I'm playing someone else and get upset, because it's not them, it's me that gets beaten and should be trying to work around it.
But still, it always feels ****ty to get beaten, though I don't really care about what character beats me because I play a mid tier character, I can get beaten by anyone like that.

P.S. On last page, you just asked for my view on it, and I gave it.

 

[Taj278]

P.S. On last page, you just asked for my view on it, and I gave it.

That's fine, I was just showing that your point just twisted my words, and that my statement could be applied to anything and didn't address my question. I'm over it though.

I try to have a good time when I play. Some people don't like that I'm having a good time when I'm playing. They think that because I'm laughing with my friends that I'm making inside jokes and I'm secluding them. I'm just honest, when I'm happy playing Smash, I show it. I think that negativity always ruins Smash sessions, when I'm happy and another person starts getting depressed, it just sucks all the fun out of it, and I'm just playing Melee for the sake of playing Melee. All the satisfaction is just sucked right out, and it makes the game unbearable.

If I wanted to play a game where I hate myself, I'd just play WoW.

Since I've come back to Melee recently, I'm trying to just focus on being positive. We're all pretty competitive by nature, so losing sucks, it's annoying, and it hurts, but I'm just trying to stay focused on the positives. If you lose a match, take what you learned from it and move on. Joke about it, talk about how salty you are, challenge them, be open with how you're feeling and try to turn them into positives. If you're feeling weary and dreary for losing too often, ask if you can "TURN UP THE JOHNS!™" and play banned stages and items for a little while. If they don't want to, challenge them to something else you'd think would be fun. Challenge them to play their worst character against yours, maybe give them objectives to complete each match, like you gotta win with the Falcon Punch or something stupid. Just remember why we've been playing the game for years.

@Ch3s and ChivalRuse- If you feel like they're running away from your challenge, ask them if you can finish the set against that character before they switch. I think that most people would accept that. I tend to accept any character requests except when I'm recording for my vids.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

falcon punch dittos are so fun the neighbors get sooo mad from across the street. But I have the most snagbagy falcon ever i've moonwalked into a falcon punch to I fell off the stage.


I think my brother may have that problem i'm just tryong tp have fun even if i'm still serious as f*** i'll do some fun things like go for dair spikes that shouldn't work or jump into dair to their death as falco. But I don't play worse. I don't know.This game is to fun I don't see how you can be mad AT the game I only have outside game johns and eyesight is kindof huge sometimes like in dittos.

 

[Wobbles]

Fun anecdote to share: I remember playing against Taj's Marth ages ago, and I was frustrated because I had no idea what to do to win with my ICs. He just kind of reamed me match after match and I was getting more and more pissed because I was at a complete loss. I finally said, "what the hell do I do against Marth?" one too many times, and Taj responded with "play better."

The fact is, I was not losing to Marth. I was not even losing to Taj's Marth. I was losing to Taj, because he was outspacing me, outthinking me, making better decisions, fewer technical errors, and it didn't matter how much I knew about fighting Marth, I would continue to lose against him if that happened. People put a lot of emphasis on character knowledge and matchup experience, and in truth they're important aspects of play. However, you will still see weird character upsets and victories, for no reason other than the other guy was playing better that match.

I beat Axe first round in a tournament, then lost to his ICs in a ditto during the same set. The people watching were flipping out, but the fact is your play varies from day to day and match to match. Axe was reading my movement better, making fewer mistakes, and it didn't matter that I knew more about ICs and played them longer, knew more about the ditto than he did, or anything like that. He just outplayed me, Wobbles. And then next game I got my head together and beat him in a rematch on the same stage, making better decisions and actually using that knowledge and experience to my advantage.

Last weekend I played Iori at FAP, at he almost beat me first round with Kirby. Then he took me to Rainbow Cruise with Peach, and I beat him again. He later made it to grand finals, but forfeit to PikaChad because he didn't think he could beat me. He asserted that he didn't know how to "beat my Ice Climbers." Iori was trying to find a way to gimmick me, or find the magic bullet that beats ICs. Truth is, unless your gimmick is extremely powerful and I can't figure it out quickly enough, the only way to beat me is to play better than me. IC experience will certainly HELP but it doesn't mean you'll read me correctly and I won't find ways to trick you anyhow.

When Taj is playing better than me, he beats me with Yoshi, Game and Watch, Marth, Pikachu, Doc, whoever he wants. When playing well, I've beaten his Marth with Mario and his M2 with DK, and it's all because at the time I was just making the right decisions and executing them well. If you start bringing weird forms of character pride into it, then you easily set yourself up for negativity traps that don't end well for anybody.

 

[Velox]

I've been tending towards that philosophy too Wobbles, though I think the character is a tad more important than you make it seem to be. You always make such good posts!


Also those posts just now by Taj were amazing too.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Matchup johning is a vicious cycle that inhibits growth. The sooner it is broken out of the better.

 

[Wobbles]

Velox: I agree it's important. But once you have a sound knowledge of move properties if you study every character a bit you can get around most of their lame gimmicks and get them to actually fight you. Once you're there, then it becomes more player oriented.

If you get a LOT of matchup experience you can find the little matchup specific tricks that most people don't know. Believe me, this is incredibly true for ICs with most characters. Knowing which grabs are safe and useful against them will drastically change the way your character plays the matchup, for instance. But you don't need absolute character mastery to play well with a character on a given day or in a given game.

 

[Deleted member]

I simply don't think zelda has the tools stop stop fox's lame gimmick of only lasers and dashdancing. While this is character-specific, the amount of weight the player can put on the performance of the character is probably a good reflection of how good that character really is.

 

[Velox]

Nah, I see ur points, that's all very true.

 

[omgwtfToph]

New question, what do you guys think about Melee becoming more than just a cult following? I know that we all love the game, but how do we show the world how amazing this game is, and just how amazing the players are as well?

I don't play mewtwo and think he is a stupid PoS of a character, but...

TAJ (and everyone else)

You should watch this video. Or at least 1 or 2 minutes of it to see what it's like.

DandyDLC's King of Fighters Tutorial: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r75Lz1Drp8g

Now. I don't play KoF, don't really like KoF, and am probably not going to pick it up. BUT after I watched that video, I thought two things: 1) I UNDERSTAND KoF a lot better - such as its short hop system, how pressure works in that game etc. and 2) I RESPECT KoF a lot more - KoF gets a lot of hate from Capcom fighter (Street Fighter etc.) players because it's kind of like the "3rd world country" version of Street Fighter.

And I was like, huh. If I was the type of person who wanted to pick up a new fighting game, maybe I'd give this game a try!

I think Melee needs something like this to branch out specifically to the two people groups that we could easily pull in the most people from: 1. Brawl players (yup!) and 2. Other fighting game players. The fact is, most "other fighting game" players don't know much about Melee, but while a lot of them hate on it for no reason because it's different, you have to understand that "other fighting game" players do this all the time - 3s players hating on Marvel, Marvel players hating on 3s, 3s players hating on SF4, Capcom players hating on airdashers (BB), everybody hating on Melty Blood cuz it's a loli fighter... etc. And, while there are indeed a lot of fighting gamers who disrespect Melee, there is also a large number of them who respect Melee as a fighter (I went out to dinner with maybe 10 or so of the best SF4 players in Washington once at Chipotle and they all thought Melee was cool and that it was a shame Brawl ended up being ****ty)

I think that, if a respectable and funny/intelligent member of the SSBM community made a video like this highlighting WHY Melee is worth playing competitively, it could go a really long way.

But I think there's one other thing a video like this should touch on: that Melee still has enormous tournament appeal in the USA and is "worth" playing because of its lasting appeal. You have to realize, for most people, a fighting game that is 10 years old and has not received any updates in 10 years, that still pulls 300+ person national tournaments, is UNHEARD OF. ESPECIALLY, a fighting game that had a NEWER VERSION released, whose players refuse to "move on" because of their love for the game. This happened with Guilty Gear in Japan - a lot of the old GGXX players refuse to play Blazblue because they think Guilty Gear is the best fighting game of all time, but this did NOT happen in America (American GG is definitely dead).

So if a tutorial video like this was made, that points out 1) all of the deep intricacies of high-level Melee like the combo system, DI, recovery, tech-chasing, the shield and OoS game, and how mindgames apply at every level, and 2) that Melee still gets big-*** sick tournaments and that it's probably like the 4th most popular fighter in the USA after, in order, SF4, Tekken 6, and Brawl which are all WAAAY newer, I think we'd get a lot of positive results.


One more thing, too. I personally think the American SSBM community is the best fighting game community in the country, having hung out with a lot of different fighting gamers. GG/BB/MB players are mostly fat white otakus, LOL, no joke. SF4 players are largely like 30+ and really boring to hang out with. Maybe it's different on the east coast, idk. Marvel players will all shoot you if you look at them the wrong way. Tekken players (at least in the PNW) are all *******s, and most of them suck. Brawl players are all ****ing annoying 15-year-olds.

So I think including a little bit about how incredible and hilarious the SSBM community is would be within the scope of something like this, as well.



I'm kind of rambling at this point, and my grammar was really really atrocious. My bad, lol.

but anyway, a big reason I wrote this post is that I've been thinking a lot of similar stuff recently, especially what with moving to Japan and understanding the cultural differences between the console fighter scene here, the ARCADE fighter scene here, and the console fighter scene in America. (I'll go into detail on this if anyone wants.) And I want to keep Melee alive and popular wherever and whenever possible, so I was thinking that somebody should do something like this.

Thoughts? >_>

Sorry to derail the conversation, I know this **** was from like a page ago... I just think it's important. Uhh, and Taj makes like ridiculously huge posts and seems to be interested in stuff like this, so this seemed like an appropriate time and place to reply.

 

[Taj278]

Toph, you're awesome and that was a great post. :D

 

[KAOSTAR]

nice **** toph. come back **** miss you like crazy.

but yes, I think the next step for melee is publicity. we have to do something to reach out.

I also agree that "new" players aren't necessarily our focus. we need to find away to get other competitive fighter players into the scene.

some ideas I have heard.

-better more refined commentary to make the matches more interesting and informative.

-advertisement on other websites. more like if you frequent another forum to plug melee into conversations.

-idk but maybe pickup players directly from other tournaments.

id love to see this community explode. since melee is a grass roots community everyone has to start in their own communities.

 

[Deleted member]

even some of us oldest players started as 15 year old dreamers, let the brawl kids have their fun

 

[Strong Badam]

btw guys, Darkrain has an 11/10 in Mindgames.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

This is true that's one of my favorite things about him is his creative combos and mindgames UI've seen things my mind couldn't understand like landing weak resvre knee to weak knee to strong revese knee on FoD without much space.

Hey when someone watchs a video of themself do you ever have problems trying to figure out how your playing? Like i've watched and replayed matches of myself in my head and the only thing predictable about me if the fact It's easy to bait my grabs when you hit my sheild ice climbers reflex I guess only in some matches.

does anyone else kindof have a hard time predicting what they would do in matches you may watch?

 

[Jim Morrison]

Brawl players are all ****ing annoying 15-year-olds.

Heh, I quit Brawl when I was 15 for Melee. And I was piss-annoying.

I went to my first Brawl tournament and realized I didn't like the game and the scene and all.

Then I played Melee which is generally a lot more fun because there are people in my city who play Melee. I think getting into Melee is really hard if you can't have consistent practice against humans. At higher levels you don't really care about playing a lot, but when you're at my level, you really want all the practice you can get.

 

[ShinigamiMarth]

I'd like to read your guys' thoughts and reflections on what your genuine playstyle is really focused on. What are your strengths, what are the criteria that needs to be met to have that playstyle, and perhaps even how you would rate yourself in each category in scale of 1-10?

Example: Technical Skill: 7/10.

I've never really thought about my play-style, but as I think back on my matches with Huan and Flaco I'm probably a balance between offense and defense, though more to the point that I can't really decide on a play-style. I 'main' Marth and Ganon, though I've been practicing a bit with Fox (I'd NEVER take him to any tourney, friendly or MM), but I have issues with how my mind works, so my conscious reaction time is nowhere near the level it probably should be at given how long I've been playing Melee (c. 2003). I've always known it, but it really came up to bite me in the *** hard this past ConnectiCon, where a Jiggs player 4-stocked my Marth on FoD (the second match I got 2-stocked with my Ganon on Battlefield, so I guess my Ganon's better). The guy was good, no doubting that, but I realized that while my instincts with Ganon are decent, my actual ability to control the flow is almost non-existent. I'm clumsy with techs, I always end up using unsafe moves when I try to do something useful (like up-tilt with Ganon instead of short-hopping uair).

Technical skill: 5/10 (I can wall-jump or floor-tech on instinct sometimes, but I can't WD or SHFFL or anything like that on command)

Reading skill: 3/10 (I can't seem to see patterns to my opponent's moves unless it's blatantly obvious, and by that time I'm dead)

Mindset: 1/10 (Depression, and the low self-esteem that comes with it, is a b****, but I am getting help for it, so this will improve)

Character knowledge: 9/10 (I know how to analyze videos and figure out how characters in general are moving... I just can't get them to move like that myself. ^_^;;; )

Stage knowledge: 7/10 (I know what stages work for certain characters, but others are a complete mystery)

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Tech skill is something you shouldn't even notice it took me 2 years to get WDing down right so I max it out and don't mess up and don't think about it and it's perfectly mixed in with my play it's not just pichu but falco/gannon/marth so I know everyones timings but for like bowser.

SHFFLing If I don't think about it I always do it right. Also once you have that don't lose it I play against CPUs to keep my tech skill up however i'm mostly about mindgames for attacking/approach.

also self esteem I had MASSIVE issues with this everytime I won/lost or anything would quickly bash myself to death and be sad, low self esteem you have to say f*** that little voice in your head why should it stop you from doing amazing? You have as great of a chance or not greater than other people the world will never make another you again don't waste it don't let your self waste. You can be wrong right? So your inner voice can be also don't be afraid to tell yourself you f*** off, you can do anything if you want to and I truely believe that.


I didn't believe in myself till my best friend told me only I could wear a pink afro all day at school without being peer pressured or anything. I love that guy. Pity my dad ends up bashing me more than anything else.
Really

 

[ShinigamiMarth]

Tech skill is something you shouldn't even notice it took me 2 years to get WDing down right so I max it out and don't mess up and don't think about it and it's perfectly mixed in with my play it's not just pichu but falco/gannon/marth so I know everyones timings but for like bowser.

SHFFLing If I don't think about it I always do it right. Also once you have that don't lose it I play against CPUs to keep my tech skill up however i'm mostly about mindgames for attacking/approach.

also self esteem I had MASSIVE issues with this everytime I won/lost or anything would quickly bash myself to death and be sad, low self esteem you have to say f*** that little voice in your head why should it stop you from doing amazing? You have as great of a chance or not greater than other people the world will never make another you again don't waste it don't let your self waste. You can be wrong right? So your inner voice can be also don't be afraid to tell yourself you f*** off, you can do anything if you want to and I truely believe that.


I didn't believe in myself till my best friend told me only I could wear a pink afro all day at school without being peer pressured or anything. I love that guy. Pity my dad ends up bashing me more than anything else.
Really

Yeah, you got a point. Four years ago I couldn't do any of those things, so I guess I'm progressing to a certain extent, un. Still, it's frustrating that my younger sister can now go toe-to-toe with me in Marth vs Peach, which used to be heavily in my favor. She's practically a sponge, and if she wasn't living with dad now she'd probably be ready for the pro level in about a year's time.

My self-esteem issues are similar, yet not quite as severe; my father was the type that believed that 'children should be seen, not heard', so I never really had a voice (metaphorically speaking) growing up. We've patched things up in recent years, though, and he's been helping me find my voice, so things will get better there. Unfortunately, it's a good 20+ years of conditioning to change, so it'll take some time to fix, un. *sighs*

My other big issue is not having people to spar with on a normal basis, so I have no motivation to even practice. I might boot it up once a week, at most, and I'm off after about twenty minutes; hell, I spend more time in the gym than on the Gamecube (which I think is a good thing in some respect... XD). The CPU is boring and easily predicted, which is probably why I'm the same way (and before you say I'm not, Huan, trust me when I say I know that I am).

 

[Winston]

Toph that project sounds great but it also sounds pretty big in scope.

Maybe repost that in Melee discussion or something and see if you can get some interest going?

I think it'd turn out best with a collaborative effort between a few motivated people.

 

[Strong Badam]

here we go.

Technical skill: 9/10 I can make my character move how I want him to and perform the things I want, when I want. I can multi-shine, but it's pointless, so I don't. I never miss an L-cancel or a wavedash to the ledge -> fastfall. I can ledge-tech most of the time, but not being able to all the time is why I didn't give myself a 10. My combo DI could also use some work, as I tend to have bad DI until too late. Should be DIing correctly after 1 hit.

Reading skill: 7/10 When I'm actually trying to, I can typically pick up on patterns and habits. In the middle of a combo though I sometimes can't execute everything perfectly while picking up on those. Main weakness here.

Mindset: 10/10 I use Donkey Kong and Doctor Mario and don't give a crap when I lose because I was using a worse character, rather than because I was outplayed. I play to win, and play to learn.

Character knowledge: 10/10 I almost know too much frame data/hitbox data. Recently I've even started memorizing move knockbacks and angles <_< I also read the character forums all the time and know several little tricks for most of the better characters.

Stage knowledge: 9/10 I know exactly where Randall is at any given time just by looking at the timer, same with the barrel on Kongo Jungle 64. I know where most characters are good at and where they are bad at in most match-ups.

 

[Palpi]

I usually skip big posts...but this thread is soooo win.

 

[omgwtfToph]

Toph that project sounds great but it also sounds pretty big in scope.

Maybe repost that in Melee discussion or something and see if you can get some interest going?

I think it'd turn out best with a collaborative effort between a few motivated people.

I'm gonna talk to SleepyK about it when I get the chance and go from there. o_O I think I'll post it in Melee Discussion when I get the chance haha.

I'd need a good video editor and someone who can record Melee to get the project going. o.o I think it could be really ****ing cool though.