Q&A Mewtwo Philosophy - Q&A Ask Away

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

the thing is even if this move has mor eprotity like it's disjointed, fast, and covers huge range it can still be near useless like roy's attacks try approaching with fair there's a problem with it. as their percents rise moves in a way become better. I won't CC up-smash you to death at this percent.but at some perfecents some moves become near useless like kirby's d-throw they'll just kick him in the face or a better case would be restor sheik's f-tilt won't really do anything at higher percents that's worth abusing.

Or say at below 20% someone's up-tilt sets up a grab below they can't folow up without jumping up after them. options are lost this is very in your face as puff at low percents you want up-tilts to rest at high percents it can only really set up air moves OR nothing for some people like if marth is at 100% it's not doing anything for you and you should've up-smashed. perecents, CC, SDI, DI, abitly to punish if missed, charcter match-up and etc. are all huge factors into this.

At some percents and match-ups roy's grab is better at like 180% at then marth in the middle of the stage with a grab at 180% is near useless.

in theory puff seems perfect in many ways due to the fct she can solidly weave in and out without being punished. but the thing is projectiles force her to play different and cut off her options.

 

[DelxDoom]

Sorry Tony, I just happened to be reading this thread when the urge to play struck me. I won't continue it here...

To be on topic though, I think that my views on this game are a little more, well, less dream-like. I believe that this game can be broken down into pure science and you could literally prove who the best character in the game are. Of course, we don't have the resources to measure such things so feel free to disagree with me, this is after all just my opinion.

My reasons for this are as follows. Virtually all the priorities in the game are known, or can be known, with 100% certainty. There is no randomness to this. If attack A and attack B are performed or collide at time T and at range R you will get the same result, every time (except phantom hits? I'm not sure if those can be produced or are actually coding glitches, which even then must have a reason for existing.). At percentage X with DI Y and hit by move A at range R your character will be hit in the same manner with the same stun every time. Though no one actually thinks about the game in this manner, they actually do on a subconscious level. We are always searching for the range and time to use the right move to out prioritize the opponent, and we are aware of the variables that effect the outcome of the move.

From this perspective, I simply believe that low tiers have a lesser amount of situations where they have priority, or the results of their priority are not as advantageous as top-tiers.

This does not mean they don't have their merits and cannot be used. The priorities of low-tier characters are usually much less known which implies that the variables that top-tier characters must account for are less known. As more priorities and favorable outcomes of those priorities are discovered, through testing and playing, the more accurate we can rank them in comparison to other characters. It may be discovered some day that a low tier character has such priorities and favorable outcomes that they are actually much better than previously thought.

I agree, but I think at some point the game becomes less of a move vs move basis and takes into account also a movement/positioning basis. Obviously I'm not at your guys' levels, but from watching youtube (lol watching youtube) the 4 best players are Mango, Armada, Hungrybox, and Mew2king.

Armada mains Peach. While obviously Peach has a lot of pretty great moves, I think a huge part of Armada's game is in spacing the float. It's something no other character can do and I think it gives him an advantage because if he can avoid Fox/Falco shnair or Falco's lasers etc easily when he's in that position, he can attack at will.

Mango's Fox doesn't let him get that position because Fox dominates on the ground (as long as he's not in hitstun or being techchased)

Puff also has a strong movement/positional advantage in the air etc.

Now, what about Falcon, who has the fastest ground movement? I think that only having that ground movement is his limit. It lets him move fast but then he is at a disadvantage to the moveset vs moveset deal.

 

[MookieRah]

So I'm reading this thread and enjoying it, and I'm nowhere near the end of it, but stumbled onto this:

I really want to find a digital artist so I can make some cool Mewtwo tutorials, I have a few ideas I want to convey, but I'm not sure how to really do it.

I'm a graphic designer btw. Got mah degree and everythang.

[edit]
I finished reading this thread, and **** it's a good one. I'll probably post here in the future, but right now my mind has been partially 'asploded.

 

[MookieRah]

This thread has touched on a lot of things that I really like thinking and talking about. In particular subjects such as learning, practice, getting through plateaus in your game (glass ceilings). I have interesting hypothesis on these things, and honestly they are all connected. I'm even going to through in another element, which is muscle memory, into the mix.

I'm sure several people in this thread have taken at least an intro level, or high school course in psychology. If not, then it's still rather common knowledge that there are tricks that help us learn. Methods such as chunking information, and studying for short periods of time (15-30 minutes) and then resting for a while, as well as sleeping after you are done studying will help solidify what you studied. I also brought up in the past that I felt that these same learning methods appear to work incredibly well when it came to muscle memory.

Well ever since I threw out that hypothesis my training method for building tech skill in almost any game has been to chunk things (by that I identify a group of techniques that are in the same family) and then spend brief sessions of time practicing, and then resting. I usually did it a few hours before I go to bed. I've had some pretty good results too, as I was learning things at a much faster pace than I did without going about it in this way.

To further my belief that I might be up to something, around this time last year I started getting into shape pretty hardcore. I even joined an MMA gym and they beat my *** for 6 months. I noticed a lot of the same things in both working out, and with training for MMA. When you are working out, the most common train of thought is that you should do a somewhat difficult weight with a small to moderate amount of reps, then you rest, and then you repeat it for a total of 3 sets. To do more sets doesn't really help, and while I've seen studies discussing that less sets is good, I've seen studies that show that 3 sets is optimal too. In the beginning it's better for someone to just do a full body workout, because you have so much room to grow and people have magical powers when they first start out (like being able to lose weight and gain muscle). But after you get to a point, you have to start focusing on muscle groups. This sounds a lot like chunking to me.

Not just with weightlifting, but in MMA whenever we sparred we would do it in 5 minute intervals. Now while that was mostly to do with the standardized 5 minute rounds, but we never deviated from it, even if the focus was to build endurance. We'd also focus on a specific aspect, such as Jiu-Jitsu, Boxing, Kick Boxing, and rarely did sparring sessions of full on MMA. So once again you see the concepts of a few sets of moderate training intervals, with breaks in between that would focus on one aspect at a time.

So where the hell am I going with this? Well, it seems to me that our minds learn in the same way that our muscles grow, and the same way that our muscles develop muscle memory. At first that might seem odd, but when you think about it, it actually makes a lot of sense. To build muscle you have to tear it, which prompts it to heal back and replace it with more muscle. When you learn something new, there is a physical change in your brain. Physical changes have to occur even if we are doing something that is mental.

Now, to touch on the discussion on reaching plateaus and glass ceilings. If you work your body in roughly the same way for a month or two, you will hit a plateau. Even if you attempt to increase the weight, if you do the same exercises you get to a point where your body doesn't want to get beyond where it is. So what do bodybuilders do when they reach a plateau? They completely change their workout routine. They will do different exercises that targets the same muscles, but in a completely different way. I think this is what we should do as players when we reach plateaus.

If I think back to all the times in smash where I hit plateaus, I didn't get any better till I switched things up. Early on I would play a character for a few months, and then change to a different one. That caused me to mix things up quite drastically, and allowed me to break past the wall I had run into. Later in my career I had my epiphany about mindgames and observation, and it pushed me even further, cause it was a whole new realm to explore, and as such it mixed up the way I practiced.

But yeah, something to think about.

 

[DelxDoom]

Did you read Wobbles' last blog post?

http://eskimosister.blogspot.com/2010/11/smash-workout.html

Coincidence?

 

[MookieRah]

I didn't even know about his blog, so yes, it's a coincidence :-P. I also like where he is going, cause it's pretty nifty, although there is something I don't completely agree on.

I agree with Wobbles that the method of isolating things like that as well. It's pointless to practice a long string of stuff at once, like his example with the short-hop turn waveland fastfall into bair, and that it is better to learn the building blocks of that movement. The point where I slightly disagree is that I think it's ok to practice "putting it all together" some too. Say for instance, if you spent a day mastering all the building blocks of a particular action, I think it would be perfectly fine on the next day to spend a 15 minute session of putting those blocks together, because honestly it's not quite as simple as doing each individual piece. I would say that you shouldn't practice this in depth the way that you practiced the building block, because you don't want to build it as a habit, but you want to make sure that your hands can make the connection from one building block to another. It's also good to do it a handful of times, as you would be more likely to remember that it is an option in the middle of a heated battle.

**** this thread is delicious.

 

[KAOSTAR]

When it comes to tech skill, practicing transitions is really important.

the more u practice transitions the more u can recall individual moves and mix **** up.


I tend to practice a single move till I can do it. then I practice doing it in succession or in a chain. then I practice doing it in a string with something else. I usually repeat this process and each time I repeat its a bit easier, and eventually ur good at it.

It become alot easier to incorporate **** into your game like this imo.

 

[Taj278]

I'll probably post something when I get back from Cali. If anyone cares.

 

[ChivalRuse]

We all care. Very much!

 

[DelxDoom]

I CARE

VERY MUCH!

very very very much

 

[Tee ay eye]

no one cares about you

Spoiler

r mewtwo

, dad

Spoiler

play marth

 

[DelxDoom]

tipping an illusion? more like
not tipping a teleport [cookies]

does this mean that TAJ needs to make a new video? Taking All Jolly ranchers?

i have no idea

 

[SDC]

tipping an illusion? more like
not tipping a teleport [cookies]

does this mean that TAJ needs to make a new video? Taking All Jolly ranchers?

i have no idea

Taking All Gummi Bears. Yummy

 

[Taj278]

DGDTJ Reflection

Ok, it's been a week. I've taken in a lot of things from this tournament. I'm kind of in a tough spot in my life right now, reading youtube comments only makes me feel worse, but I'm doing my best to get over it. Overall, I'm satisfied with my performance in singles. I lost to Silent Spectre and Lucky. I went all Mewtwo against SS because I wouldn't hear the end of it if I did anything else, and I went all Marth against Lucky because I just felt like it. They were both respectable losses, I'd like to have done better, but in a way I'm glad I didn't beat Lucky because I'm certain S2J would've ***** my **** again, and I'm glad he got an awesome second place.

I'm quite disappointed in doubles. I really wanted a top two at this tournament and I feel really bad for letting Axe down again. I'm just soaking up the negativity right now, and it's really not healthy.

My goal for this tournament was to be recognized as a great player. I'm kind of tired of being recognized as only a great MEWTWO player and a washed-up Marth. I worked on my Marth, I thought I did pretty well, but apparently not to the people I wanted it to matter. I did just fine against PPU in dittos after the tourney, but apparently you have to look fancy nowadays to get respect. I guess I'll just have to keep trying.

The overall tourney experience was good though, and I'm going to try to share some more of my game theory with anyone reading this.

Reaching the next level: Part II
Recognizing and Becoming the Distortion

I've had this idea that every player has a rhythm, and some players tend revolve their entire playstyles around a consistent and basic rhythm that most smashers have. A REALLY good example of this would be a player like Light. A lot of Peach players in general also seem to carry this same feeling, but from everyone I've played so far, it is definitely something I can sense in Light the most.

The way that he throws out his attacks, the systematic approach to throwing turnips when he has a specific amount of distance. The way he responds to your approach and pressure are all seemingly based on a calculated rhythm, and it seems to throw a lot of people off, based on his consistent Cali tournament performances recently despite being out of the competitive scene for so long.

I think I'm the last AZ player for Light to beat in a set in AZ, aside from GG7 after he got good. (GG7's Silly Kyle practice really helps my idea that I'm going to touch on later) Light is a good player, and I'll be honest and say it took me a long time to really come to that realization. That goes for a lot of Peach players except Armada, because he's a G. (I'm wondering how many people are going to name search this thread, lol) I'd even say that Shroomed also carries this same type of "rhythm" based game play that basically invades your timing, and gives you "static" or distorts your own sense of timing, spacing, and awareness and you feel like you're getting hit by stupid ****, but there is actually a little more to it.

In personal experience, these players are almost categorized into a **** or be ***** group. Where matches either flow your way, their way, or you obliterate each other's stocks because you're not counter-adapting their pace each stock and they're just adapting to yours. I remember getting 3 stocked by Shroomed at Mango Juice, 3 stocking him back, then making a 3 stock comeback on the last game on Brinstar.

I'm going to go on a limb here, and say that these types of players have been a wall for a lot of aspiring players. I know my son has some difficulty consistently breaking past this wall, I know that Wobbles has had some problems with this wall as well, and you can spell CHEAP with her name.

I'm going to go back to GG7 and look at his recent hyped money match, and try to solidify my point here. Basically, most people on youtube tried to whine about how GG7 played gay, when he was really just playing efficiently. He actually did approach the Peach, forced an action, didn't run into it like most people, and punished accordingly. He even decided to commit to his empty short hop grabs when he saw the Peach wasn't biting. You can call me biased, but Hbox, Scar, and AZ are all richer because we were all seeing the same thing.

GG7 is really good at seeing past those basic decisions and ideas and punishing for it. I know that when I play him, he's really good at forcing my sidesteps because I'm expecting SHFFL knees and he'd catch me with a lagged short hop knee. He's pudding when I grab him, but for a relatively new player, his growth is incredible.

Axe still wants to play aggressive and has a strong conviction for it. I want to see what he'd become if he REALLY played to win, instead of playing with his ideals, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Playing with pride is the only thing keeping everyone that isn't top 3 from not entering tournaments. It's also healthier for the game for multiple styles of play to be viable, but I still wish he'd work on efficiency and find that balance like PP.

I've forgotten the feeling of being in a tournament as an unknown player playing against an unknown player. But, I think DSF's idea of analyzing your opponent's first stock, win or lose is critical. I touched on "rhythm" based players earlier, but obviously there are many other types of players out there. Having general understandings of each type of player is the best way to gaining some kind of consistency in tournament so that you can focus on what matters more, like tech patterns, recovery patterns, and denying options.

It's kind of like playing someone in Starcraft for the first time, you always have to be on guard for cheese* first, unless you're the one that wants to do the cheesing. Playing standard first stock, then adjusting your playstyle win or lose to quickly balance the game or solidify your lead are critical in maintaining your confidence and composure against random players. There's nothing wrong with cheesing your opponent or receiving it, as long as it is withing boundaries of the rules. Personally, I think that stage selection (CP stages) should be removed as a form of cheesing since it potentially limits the cast and dramatically alters styles of play, but that's another subject.

*Cheesing is a general term for cheap play/gaying/rush strategies/easy advantages*

It's kind of late right now, but I'll probably make a second part tomorrow. I also want to touch on some of the "external factors" at DGDTJ. If you guys need any clarification or have any questions or comments on anything, please post your thoughts.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Your notion of "player rhythm" is pretty interesting. I definitely agree that it exists, but I don't know how easily you can quantify it, especially when higher level players are less prone to eliciting patterns, especially those involving any kind of distinctive rhythm.

Edit: I may add to this response later, but I have to go eat lunch for now.

 

[mers]

Your description of Shroomed's rhythm helped me put some thoughts I'd had while watching Mango videos into words. In a way, I'd say that "**** or be *****" also applies to Mango, except he does an incredible job not getting *****. Almost everything Mango does makes his opponent look really bad. He's really really good at throwing people off of their game and not allowing them any form of control whatsoever.

However, when his opponent on top of their game, the reverse never happens. Nobody ever makes Mango look like a scrub (I mean, there are isolated examples, but my point stands). Sure, plenty of times people will have an edge on him and take a few stocks while losing a few less, but he rarely gets truly ****ed up. So to win against Mango, you have to play almost perfectly for the entire game, without ever slipping up, and even then you'll probably only 1-stock him. But if you slip up at all, and lose your edge for a little while, he'll **** you up in no time.

This has a lot less to do with Taj's post than I meant it to, but oh well.

Anyhow, I wouldn't worry so much about people not liking your Marth, Taj. I think a lot of players can see the brilliance behind playing simply and efficiently. Watching your Marth teaches me a lot, and I absolutely love seeing your Marth dittos.

 

[forward]

Tony I really liked your matches against Lucky. It was a good match on each player's part and those are the best.

I also wish Axe focused on winning but there's nothing I can do about so I let him and I just try to appreciate the cool stuff he does.

I think you should bring your Fox back into singles for the Falcon match up. You don't need crazy 2010 tech skill, Cactuar is a great example of that, and IMO it would give you better odds at making it far in brackets. Your Fox can still play well on teams, I'm sure you can do it in singles too.

I was wondering, do I have any kind of rhythm? If so what is it like? I'm always interested in what people have to say about my play other than it's freakin' good. Still appreciate those comments though.

The GG7 vs MacD match was great. Anyone who wants to learn that match up as a Falcon would do good to study those. Like you said, it was efficient. Not only that, but you can see why. Doesn't jump into attacks, calls rolls and spot dodges, his ABC combos are on point, etc.

Tony, I'm interested to hear more on how teams went with you and Axe. I was expecting you guys to place top 3 and didn't expect you guys to lose to the teams that you did.

 

[GamerGuitarist7]

aww i'm glad you guys liked my match so much i definitely played the matchup like falcon needs to play it, although it may have been cheesy.

The GG7 vs MacD match was great. Anyone who wants to learn that match up as a Falcon would do good to study those. Like you said, it was efficient. Not only that, but you can see why. Doesn't jump into attacks, calls rolls and spot dodges, his ABC combos are on point, etc.

man i am so honored at sean's statement. makes me feel like i've really developed despite just ****** everyone in this ****ty city of tucson.

tony, i have stuff to say about your most recent post but no time, i'll will touch on this thread tomorrow.

 

[forward]

aww i'm glad you guys liked my match so much i definitely played the matchup like falcon needs to play it, although it may have been cheesy.



man i am so honored at sean's statement. makes me feel like i've really developed despite just ****** everyone in this ****ty city of tucson.

tony, i have stuff to say about your most recent post but no time, i'll will touch on this thread tomorrow.

Hey Chris, don't hate on Tucson too much, that city has bred some high caliber players

 

[Cactuar]

FORWARD HAS SUMMONED ME THROUGH USE OF MY NAME!

@Taj: Ya dude. Low-tech Fox > Falcon.

 

[DelxDoom]

this thread is amazing

The way that he throws out his attacks, the systematic approach to throwing turnips when he has a specific amount of distance. The way he responds to your approach and pressure are all seemingly based on a calculated rhythm, and it seems to throw a lot of people off, based on his consistent Cali tournament performances recently despite being out of the competitive scene for so long.

I think I'm the last AZ player for Light to beat in a set in AZ, aside from GG7 after he got good. (GG7's Silly Kyle practice really helps my idea that I'm going to touch on later) Light is a good player, and I'll be honest and say it took me a long time to really come to that realization. That goes for a lot of Peach players except Armada, because he's a G. (I'm wondering how many people are going to name search this thread, lol) I'd even say that Shroomed also carries this same type of "rhythm" based game play that basically invades your timing, and gives you "static" or distorts your own sense of timing, spacing, and awareness and you feel like you're getting hit by stupid ****, but there is actually a little more to it.

Are you saying that there is a specific formula, when followed [loosely] can give many players a hard time? Sounds interesting
Also, interesting that 3 of the players you mention use Peach, Doc, and Falcon. In a sense, these characters don't have overwhelming offense [Falcon has movement speed, but not much attack speed]and are not considered top tier like Fox/Falco.
It might be a character specific thing, but do you think someone could apply this sort of idea to Fox? Falco? [PP seems like he could fit this category, but he adds the explosive factor of Falco combos which is completely deadly]

It might also be because Peach and Doc are not especially fast characters, but they can throw out attacks relatively quickly. This is unexpected because they are slower characters - ie you'd expect Fox to go nuts at any time because he is Fox. Expectations/underestimation factor?

What gets me is the "systematic" thing. I'm wondering, how is it effective to be systematic? It seems to me that this will leave you predictable, even if efficient.
On the other hand, if you have a systematic way of either
a) being unpredictable
or b) shutting down your opponent's options
you will be much more confident in your play, especially if you have proven to yourself that it has worked. Confidence factor

Dunno where I am going with this, as I am a scrub! but systematic-ness is probably not associated with being predictable in your book and that is something I did not really think about, which is why my playstyle is so weird

 

[Deleted member]

I'm a momentum based player, which is much easier than other styles of play IMO. fundamentally, it's just "do not persist in a disadvantageous position, push forward when given an advantage and make it into something more".

and i agree with you tony in that you will be recognized as a mewtwo player but not a talented player elsewhere. i had the same problem for many years.

 

[StealthyGunnar]

Player rhythm exists, though i dont have much to say about it since i dont know much about it. im picking up m2. im unknown, i suck, discuss.

 

[Taj278]

this thread is amazing


Are you saying that there is a specific formula, when followed [loosely] can give many players a hard time? Sounds interesting
Also, interesting that 3 of the players you mention use Peach, Doc, and Falcon. In a sense, these characters don't have overwhelming offense [Falcon has movement speed, but not much attack speed]and are not considered top tier like Fox/Falco.
It might be a character specific thing, but do you think someone could apply this sort of idea to Fox? Falco? [PP seems like he could fit this category, but he adds the explosive factor of Falco combos which is completely deadly]

It might also be because Peach and Doc are not especially fast characters, but they can throw out attacks relatively quickly. This is unexpected because they are slower characters - ie you'd expect Fox to go nuts at any time because he is Fox. Expectations/underestimation factor?

What gets me is the "systematic" thing. I'm wondering, how is it effective to be systematic? It seems to me that this will leave you predictable, even if efficient.
On the other hand, if you have a systematic way of either
a) being unpredictable
or b) shutting down your opponent's options
you will be much more confident in your play, especially if you have proven to yourself that it has worked. Confidence factor

Dunno where I am going with this, as I am a scrub! but systematic-ness is probably not associated with being predictable in your book and that is something I did not really think about, which is why my playstyle is so weird

Oh, I used GG7 as an example of someone that sees through the rhythm style of play that a lot of Peach and Doc players have in common. He didn't win against Shroomed, but the matches were pretty close.

I think it is safe to say that a lot of Luigi, Doc, Peach, and Sheik players tend to have this playstyle. It may have more to do with, fast hit recovery, quick sidesteps and attacks that twist and move hurtboxes. Like Peach down tilt moving her back and having high priority, forward airs, forward smash, and things like that.

There's nothing wrong with being systematic if it's something that you can do when you're in control. If you have a systematic approach or recovery pattern, it is more harmful than good, but if you have a systematic chain throw, tech chase, or other type of punish, those can typically be good.

It is especially strong, because you'll most likely experience it and have to learn and adapt to it in a short set, like a best of 3. It may not be enough time for a lot of aspiring players, which is why I often see and hear about many people losing matches they think they shouldn't have lost.

The other positive to this style of play is that it is still fundamentally safe if they are covering their options really well. For example, if you're a Peach player with distance... you start pulling and throwing turnips, they approach, you stop and you wall off their approach with air tight neutral airs into down smash on their shield.

Playing a systematic mindless spammy game with turnips, dash dance camping, punishing the opponent for going long range, and denying the opponent's close game with difficult to punish attacks that characters like Doc and Peach have is very strong against most C and B level players.

@mers:

I don't think Mango falls in the category of players that I'm talking about either. In my previous experience playing Mango, the only thing he really attacked from my point of view, was my sense of safety in spacing. He was also unusually aggressive in situations I thought I'd be safe in. (He likes to extend out on his edgeguards a lot) Where someone like M2K would throw me off in my sense of timing. Every time that I thought he would be vulnerable from lag, he'd be safe. Every attack that I thought I had time to shield and dodge, he'd be able to punish me.

In the case of the rhythm players, they have a playstyle that seems to attack you more fundamentally. They basically play off of a basic rhythm that most players have in how they like to approach, how they like to recover, and you just feel like YOU'RE off of your timing just a little bit and they're there to punish you.


@Forward- You do have a rhythm, but I wouldn't call you a rhythm based player like some of the people I've mentioned. I think everyone has a rhythm, and I'm trying to theorize that that there are types of players that feed on that rhythm and kind of use that general rhythm against the majority of us. They're like static, or distortion to your own rhythm and basically throw you off and hit you with things you feel like you SHOULDN'T be getting hit with, and punishing you because you feel like you're off that split second. In tournaments and money matches, that feeling is probably amplified even more.

If I had to describe your style, I'd say you're like a formula player. You seem to create a foundation for how to play a match. Then you engage the match and you get an idea of what the other person is planning, and you rotate through different phases until you find the seemingly most effective formula for shutting that person down until that person changes their approach, then you find another formula. That's a pretty narrow description, you have a lot more depth than that, because you obviously like to open up a lot of options with your positioning and tech skill, but that's kind of the way I see your matches playing out. You open up tech skill options to create more formulas for approaching or shutting people down. Your style has it's down side, if the person is altering their play as they're going and keeping momentum, or if they're aware of what option you're going to try and use to beat them out and they react, adapt, or anticipate it, but overall it is a really strong style and you've pretty much ***** me for the longest time. ( If you even want to call being weak to someone a step ahead a weakness, lol) :D

You're freakin' good. :D

In doubles, double Fox, was always a problem for my playstyle. The matches were really close, but I think I need to practice more character options for that comp.

In losers, I think a lot of things were going on, I felt pretty good going into the match, but I think I let the crowd get to me a little bit and I think I took risks where I shouldn't and I didn't take risks where I should have... to keep things simple. I gotta reevaluate my teams play again for next time.

 

[Cheeri-Oats]

Taj, I like your theorycrafting. Bookmark'd.

 

[boardsmash]

Taj u have a son that plays smash?

 

[Tee ay eye]

i'm his son that plays smash

 

[GamerGuitarist7]

taj how would you describe my playstyle and strenghts/weaknesses

i love you

SMOKIN ON THE DRO YOU CAN'T ACT LIKE YOU DON'T KNOW


.........DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYMMMMMMMNNNNNNN........

 

[Palpi]

How old are you tai? You're marth if pretty impressive.

 

[forward]

Tai is 8 years old

 

[Palpi]

Tai is 8 years old

Oh wow..thats awesome =]

 

[KAOSTAR]

LOL. dont believe the hype. what parents are gonna let their 8 yr old travel around to play video games with high skool-like ****ing 27 yr old dudes.

 

[Tee ay eye]

TAJ is like Big Daddy from Kick A$$

Forward is wrong. I'm actually 7 years old.
Turning 6 next year.
I'm like Benjamin Buttons.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I was hella sad when that dude died yo T_T

 

[forward]

Unfortunately, Tai doesn't have much time left in this world

 

[ChivalRuse]

He grows down. That's the curse of his agelessness.

 

[ItalianStallion]

So much to say...

So I just joined Smashboards recently, and this was the first thread I found. And it was pretty much the best thread for me to find. I have much to say on the topic, but since I am late in the conversation, I will just say a few things.

I main Mewtwo. Why? Because of his classy ways.
But seriously, I main him because I consider him to have the coolest looking move-set in the game. All of his moves have a lot of personality attached. The way he is animated causes his moves to look like he is "owning" the match even if he isn't. Add along his laughs and groans and he just seems to insult the opponent with every attack. Also, his moves are creative in their design and allow room for people like TAJ to develop interesting and creative combos. He is a fun character to watch and play and requires a lot of getting used to. Although he has some glaring weaknesses, he has some great ways to cover up his weaknesses, like his teleport. Sure he is big and floaty, but his teleport allows for a 360 degree escape to get out of a combo, or back on the ground, or straight to a ledge, where he can start over and work his ground game to plan a new approach.

Now this is all coming from someone who has only started to get really serious about this game in the past 6 months or so. I also only have one person to spar with since I live in a small town.

I am trying to remember other random questions in this thread....ummm....

I expect my Mewtwo to be un-Mewtwo-like. I want to mask his weaknesses to the extent that my opponent doesn't believe in them anymore. If Mewtwo is seen as a slow, floaty, target, then I want to stick to ground approaches, be efficient with my move-set, wave-dash and teleport often to speed up my game. I want the opponent to believe that Mewtwo was never a slow, floaty, target. This is where I want my Mewtwo to be, however since I am still a newbie when it comes to actually using advanced tactics, this goal is still far away.

Another interesting thing was the post where TAJ said that since he played Mewtwo, it improved other aspects of his game with other characters. He said that he could tech-chase with his eyes closed. However he also said that this caused his Marth to be(or be viewed as) a bit odd. I for one think that this is a major way lower tiers will show up more in matches.

TAJ's Marth may be odd, but it is effective. And IMO, it is a fun Marth to watch. He brings a different plate to the Marth family dinner. Some might love it and want the recipe, but others might think it needs more gravy. Whether you like his Marth or not, it is a way to play a successful Marth without sticking to a lot of the standard Marth strategy. It can throw people off. It can also explore different options that could be possible with that character. I imagine this will be more important as time goes on. I think that exploring multiple play-styles with a character will break new ground when it comes to their metagame. One of the easiest ways to do this IMO is experiment with different characters, no matter how low they are on the tier list. By doing that, every character has the opportunity to become more competitive and the character playing field will become more more even. From this we might see more players using different characters besides the standard high-tier characters. I think that it will make the Smash scene more intriguing and friendly to people who wish to join. No one wants to hear that their favorite character Link is pure crap and they have to use someone high up or else they aren't going to win. But that is what people will most likely do if they look at the cool pro videos online and never see their character being used. They will see the videos, be amazed by them, and then go play a Fox. With that we lose a potential player who might have revolutionized the Link metagame. I can relate to this myself.

I have been playing Melee for a while, but it wasn't until last year when I went to my first year at college that I wanted to get better at it. At college we would have some nights where someone might hook up a Gamecube, four controllers, and we would play some Melee. There were more then four people who wanted to play, so we had to switch out. I didn't see a lot of playing time due to the fact that I wasn't as good as everyone else. Every time I joined in, I was the joke of that round. Why? Because I liked playing Mewtwo. Everyone else liked playing with faster characters. There was a Falco, a Mario, a Shiek, etc. Those players had no knowledge of advanced play and neither did I, therefore they ***** me. I was a huge target for Falco's side smash. I was floaty for Shiek. This frustrated me because every time I would pick Mewtwo(Which was like every time I played), people would always make remarks about how crappy he was. I was handicapping myself for playing what I thought was the coolest character in the game. This made me think about just switching to Falco or someone else that I could use so I wasn't seen as a joke to the other players and could actually be involved in their Melee-fests.

However, there was one other person that played that I haven't mentioned yet. He was the main reason why we played. He was good. Really, REALLY good. Especially compared to us. He was doing things we didn't know existed: wave-dashing, short hopping, l-canceling, etc. He used a lot of characters well, but his favorite was Donkey Kong. He couldn't be beat by any of us with any character he used, but this was doubly so for his Donkey Kong. Seeing his Donkey Kong made me think I could switch to Donkey Kong. I had no idea there was such a thing as a tier list, or a sport-like community for this game. In my eyes, I saw Donkey Kong as the best character and I wanted to switch to him. So I did, and people made fun of me for using a crappy character. I asked the really good player, Brandon, why people were saying that. He said that Donkey Kong was crappier than the others, but Brandon loved his style, learned how to use him well, and made him into a a better character. This revolutionized things for me. Apparently with advanced techniques, someone wouldn't have to worry about using their favorite characters. I wanted to see what could be done with Mewtwo, so I asked Brandon to use Mewtwo for a match and show us what he could do. He said he couldn't, do to the fact that he never practiced with him, was one of his least favorite characters, and personally found him to be quite a bad character in a lot of regards. Brandon suggested that maybe playing as Mewtwo wasn't actually what I should do and said I should experiment with everyone before I cemented myself in one character. So one day he had a personal session with me where he had me play every character on the roster to figure out who I liked. I found out I liked a lot of different characters for their styles, but I still had my favorite...Mewtwo. He was just too classy.

From this, Brandon decided to show me an example of a good Mewtwo, so he introduced me to the world of Melee pros. He showed me some videos of his favorite players. He also showed me one of his inspirations for going/staying DK. It was a video of Captain Jack playing as DK. I saw different videos with different players and was amazed with what I saw. They all made their characters move so fast and be so effective. Could someone do that with Mewtwo?

I asked him that and he showed me a video that blew my mind. It was TAJ versus Silent Spectre. It was amazing to me. I finally saw how good Mewtwo could be if used well. After that he showed me Shadowclaw 2. I was further impressed and it helped me actually stay a Mewtwo main. Heck, it was probably the main reason I didn't stop playing Mewtwo altogether. And that leads me to my main point.

New players playing the game might need some extra oomph to play as their favorite character, but if they see none and only see awesome stuff from Fox's, Falco's, etc. then they will feel less inclined to pursue their own style and feel forced to play a character who "is better." This isn't an attractive element of the pro environment for new players. It definitely wasn't for me. I feel that every character should have at least one "representative." Someone who uses the character to the extent that they become a force to be reckoned with, no matter the character''s place on the tier list. This creates a more diverse and fun atmosphere for everyone. The Arizona players make this interesting with a lot of their top players being "representatives." TAJ with his Mewtwo, Axe with his Pikachu, V3ctorman with his Yoshi, ect. Having players main these underused characters, or at least use them on the side, will make things more interesting and fun. Plus it will allow multiple players to experiment with underused characters to help improve the metagame of the character, or the players style with that character and others. Also, I think it is bad if new players are given the impression right off the bat that their favorite can't go anywhere. There needs to be at least one example of how good a character can be. It gives people inspiration. Cosmo is giving me inspiration with my Zelda, TAJ and V3ctorman with my Mewtwo, and Eddy Mexico with my Luigi.

I just realized how long this post is. I should stop.

Anyways...there is some stuff I wanted to say. Granted...I am a newbie at this, but I think I made some good points. I just hope this thread hasn't died yet.

 

[DelxDoom]

Excellent points, I'm glad you decided to stick with Mewtwo and made that post. Good post, too.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Oh my gosh. Huge post. I'll read later.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Awesome attitude man. V3ctorMan and I were talking about how we need more players like you to rep low tiers. Keep it up, if u have questions or need help or advice ANYTHING just come back to the friendly Mewtwo boards lol

^_^