MetaKnight Infinite Dimensional Cape - hope you enjoy

[adumbrodeus]

It seems to me you dont want your Marth to have a further disadvantage vs MK. That is your problem with it.

You're obviously missing the ban criteria.

The fact is, this would give MK a massive advantage over the entire cast, making him the only tournament-viable character. Therefore, we have 2 choices, ban the char, or ban the tech, which do you want.

So yeah, an additional advantage against Marth is PART of the issue, but if it was just Marth, I wouldn't be suggesting this. Marth vs. MK switching 90-10 is not anti-competitive. MK vs. entire cast switching to 90-10 IS!

Read Sirlin's guide on this... please.




Oh, btw, I'm an MK main now.

Just for kicks, tell me what is so horrible about being above MK. I would certainly rather be above an MK than above a Marth!

As a general rule, attacks going up outprioritize attacks going down, in MK's case it's rather extreme, only 2 dairs outprioritize his uair, and both are highly punishable.

This also completely eliminates projectile spamming against him.


Overall, in the air... MK wins... it's that simple. And making projectile spamming powerless against him, 90-10 advantage over the cast.


Marth doesn't have an AT that forces you to be above him otherwise you basically lose, no does he?

Yes, completely uncounterable. Do you even hear yourself? Uncounterable? There is absolutely no way anyone who knows how to do this is EVER going to lose a match. That is what you are saying. No matter the skill of the other person, no matter how bad the person playing as MK is, no matter who organizes the tourney, no matter what character you play, etc. there is absolutely nothing that anyone could ever hope to do against this one, single, solitary move? No. You are aboslutely WRONG.

Beyond the mentioned cases of "putting yourself in a very very bad position" or a massive stroke of luck, yeah.

Unless you know of another move that grants indefinite invincibility.

As I said, every method of defense has vulnerability frames which this technique can easily exploit.


That's exactly why this technique is so incredibly powerful.

Show a video of someone trying against it before you say such stupid things. Wait until someone actually does it in a fight before you ban it. you are so quick to kill this off before it can even be done. do I like it? no. I hate MK, but banning something that gives him more advantage just because no one likes it is ********.

No one is suggesting it gets banned before it sees tournament use. We're just telling you what the inevitable result is.

Well I don't want to go through 60 pages to see if anyone had this idea..... so please forgive me if this has been suggested (I just read the first 6-7 pages)


I have an idea:

Why not make a rule that this AT can only be used when you are behind. (in stock/percent)

That would be much easier to monitor then timing the stall with a stopwatch.

Which totally forgets that it's a nigh invincible approach.

(SSF2T) Bad Akumas lose against good players. Akuma has one single move which single-handed shuts down everyone else in the entire game.

Akuma is banned.

If the skill gap is large enough of course, and it has to be LARGE to win against Akuma. Which is the same situation here.

 

[metaXzero]

Wait. Was Akuma banned just because he could air-hadouken? Or was he broken through other factors?

If it was just the Gou Hadouken in mid-air, why wasn't that just banned?

 

[Plairnkk]

any decent competitive player with half a brain knows this will just be banned in tournaments, anyone else is just a stupid scrub looking for a way to gain an advantage on everyone else.

give it up, not a viable strat.

 

[Niko_K]

^^^ Thank you. Can we please just shut this thread down. It really isn't progressing anywhere in terms of usage for the tactic anyways. It's going to be banned just about everywhere and I don't see the need to continue the discussion.

Also about Akuma being banned,

Akuma has one single move which single-handed shuts down everyone else in the entire game.

Akuma is banned.

This kind of reminds me of MK xD, though there are a few characters who can counter MK's beastly nado (Marth + Ike's counter, Marths FB) Wario's Dair from Above. (im missing a few)

It's just a ***** with everyone else lolol.

 

[Plairnkk]

actually thats not true, lol, mks tornado is so easy to punish. hit it anywhere from above or below, or just shield it then dash in. counterpick FD against MK, its good when he tornadoes people and u fly out above it you can fall down on him with any move for free

trust me, of all people i know the benefits and drawbacks of tornado XD

 

[adumbrodeus]

^^^ Thank you. Can we please just shut this thread down. It really isn't progressing anywhere in terms of usage for the tactic anyways. It's going to be banned just about everywhere and I don't see the need to continue the discussion.

Also about Akuma being banned,

This kind of reminds me of MK xD, though there are a few characters who can counter MK's beastly nado (Marth + Ike's counter, Marths FB) Wario's Dair from Above. (im missing a few)

It's just a ***** with everyone else lolol.

Every character can counter mach tornado it's just more difficult for some characters then others (properly placed dairs universally work for example).

 

[gantrain05]

corey, why don't u tell us YOUR brilliant strategy to counter this gay tech, and then i'll tell you why your wrong. mmk?

 

[Justaway]

hang on the ledge?

 

[adumbrodeus]

corey, why don't u tell us YOUR brilliant strategy to counter this gay tech, and then i'll tell you why your wrong. mmk?

He did, and it would've worked except for a little something that we were refer to as frame where you're not invincible.

You know the thing that every defensive technique in the game has for balance?

 

[Yuna]

If the skill gap is large enough of course, and it has to be LARGE to win against Akuma. Which is the same situation here.

I said that earlier.

Someone said "Bla, bla, this is just one move. It'll just make Meta really good." or something so I used Gouki to illustrate the point.

If it was just the Gou Hadouken in mid-air, why wasn't that just banned?

Because we don't ban moves. You can't just go "You cannot use Fair, ever!" just because someone's Fair is so godly it makes them broken. It's a part of the character. The character itself is broken.

Also, he's got more than the Air Hadôken. It's just that the Air Hadôken literally shuts everyone down.

hang on the ledge?

This is a counter how? "Sonic is a DeDeDe counter. He can just run away and hide for most of the game!".

 

[ShaolinAce]

The first couple of days I don't post and the MK boards find this. I feel cheated.

Going to go practise now >_>

 

[BentoBox]

Doesn't the camera move according to both players' position? You could track both metaknights in that vid (not precisely as it was a ditto so you could be confused between the two players' position but still...)

As an approach, it is very good but far from being flawless. As a stalling method it is overpowered, but like corey said, stalling moves weren't banned in the past, so how is this any different?

Would I get kicked out of a tournament for using this move as a safe approach on the premise that I could've used it in an other way which would then warrant me a ban? That doesn't make much sense to me.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I said that earlier.

Someone said "Bla, bla, this is just one move. It'll just make Meta really good." or something so I used Gouki to illustrate the point.

Clarifying your point, not disagreeing.

Doesn't the camera move according to both players' position? You could track both metaknights in that vid (not precisely as it was a ditto so you could be confused between the two players' position but still...)

The invincibility is the real issue.

As an approach, it is very good but far from being flawless. As a stalling method it is overpowered, but like corey said, stalling moves weren't banned in the past, so how is this any different?

Ok, what are it's flaws?

I'm listening...

Would I get kicked out of a tournament for using this move as a safe approach on the premise that I could've used it in an other way which would then warrant me a ban? That doesn't make much sense to me.

Once the official ban is in place, yes. Because the approach is just as bad as the stall.

 

[metaXzero]

Um Yuna? Unlike F-airs in Smash, Akuma has reliable alternatives to air Hadoukens (punches, kicking, Tatsumaki, etc.) So it wouldn't be gimping him to ban it.

Also if that was the argument to ban Akuma instead of the technique/move, couldn't that also be used to ban Meta Knight instead of just D.I.C.K.?

Not supporting or anything. Just curious...

 

[Yuna]

Um Yuna? Unlike F-airs in Smash, Akuma has reliable alternatives to air Hadoukens (punches, kicking, Tatsumaki, etc.) So it wouldn't be gimping him to ban it.

No, no. I'm saying, banning just the Air Hadôken for Gouki (like some people are suggesting) is as ludicrous as banning Marth's Fair. "It's too good! Wah! Wah! Ban that move!".

Um, yah. No. If it's part of his natural moveset and he's just too friggin' good, we ban him.

Also if that was the argument to ban Akuma instead of the technique/move, couldn't that also be used to ban Meta Knight instead of just D.I.C.K.?

It's not the move, though. It's a glitch which you can't accidentally do. It's not part of his natural moveset. It's like Variable Cancel in Soul Calibur III. Everyone has it. Some have better ones than others. It's universally banned. Kinda...

I can't think of any other game with a move that's banned if you glitch it, at which point it becomes overpowered, but not otherwise (nor the character) ATM, but I don't play that many games Competitively.

 

[stfuppercut]

Edge can do that irl.

 

[Magus420]

Doesn't the camera move according to both players' position? You could track both metaknights in that vid

This is a bad thing? As MK, you actually want them to know when you're just chilling there and following them around with a controllable duration of invincibility, while also keeping the pressure of being within range of striking at random with an attack that is too fast for them to be able to react to (this part is very important), and could be right then or a good while later. You also obviously want to be able to tell where you yourself are so you can stay close to them, and if they go up to a high platform or something you go release it at a safe distance so you're not considered stalling then repeat after they approach again if you want.

This is assuming you are ahead though, since if you're losing they have no reason at all to try to approach and can just stay away. If they're behind though, they would need to go down and try to bait you out of it and get a lucky guess of when you'll come out of it. With this it's better to wait far more often than to attack since the longer you wait the harder it will be to predict and shield or whatever. Though safe (they can re-shield before you can react to it being dropped), shield can only be thrown out so much and also drains quickly. This is why waiting is good since it really hurts the effectiveness of trying to guess and shield it. If they happen to do a dodge/roll/etc that has enough lag while waiting you can react and punish it.

It's by no means unbeatable since they could guess right, but the odds are heavily against them if you're patient enough with attacking, which you should be since it's rather punishable. This also makes it harder to determine whether one's intentions are actually trying to stall out the clock by waiting in it like this, or simply making sure they are getting the best odds they can of landing that hit/not getting punished by keeping the opponent guessing for a longer period of time.

 

[shadowlink3]

yuna why are you still fighting people in my thread after 63 pages? makes no sense

 

[acv]

yuna why are you still fighting people in my thread after 63 pages? makes no sense

because its fun.thats what i think.

 

[metaXzero]

Well like I said Yuna, unlike Marth and his F-air, Akuma wouldn't suffer a giant nerf if he lacked aerial Gou Hadouken (He didn't need it and other characters didn't have an aerial projectile).

But this is for another board entirely. Doesn't really matter much to me how D.I.C.K is handled.

 

[cman]

What the hell kind of rule would that be?!

Unorthodox sure, but i don't really see any immediate problems with it. It's enforcable (without a watch or something), and removes the bannable part of the move (stalling).

Quick question, can this thing move faster than most character's run speeds?

 

[Yuna]

yuna why are you still fighting people in my thread after 63 pages? makes no sense

You created the thread, so you can dictate who can post in it and what they can post? No, really, what did you mean by that post?

I'm debating civilly, calmly and with valid arguments. Try it sometime.

 

[Quez256]

Unorthodox sure, but i don't really see any immediate problems with it. It's enforcable (without a watch or something), and removes the bannable part of the move (stalling).

Quick question, can this thing move faster than most character's run speeds?

I believe it moves roughly at MK's own run speed, so that's a yes.

 

[Linkguy]

I have a killer idea with this tactic. I'm going to go online and use it infront of as many people as possible. When people see me doing this the first thing they'll do is get online and look up wtf that was. Then they'll come across this big competitive smash scene. I know that i played melee for years without the slightest clue that there was a competitive scene. Then I discovered bomb jumping and some other **** with Link and had to look it up, and guess what I found. This tactic will alert everyone of tcompetitive smash as it spreads online like a plague, hopefully bringing more ppl to advance the metagame faster.

 

[metaXzero]

Or it'll traumatize them into never going online again. The 1s who like thinking Brawl is balanced, Tiers R 4 Queers, and ATs are all useless glitches at least.

 

[Linkguy]

Maybe.. but god i wish i could see the looks on their faces when MK just DISSAPEARS. That would be priceless.

 

[Corigames]

corey, why don't u tell us YOUR brilliant strategy to counter this gay tech, and then i'll tell you why your wrong. mmk?

I have been for the past 20 pages of this pathetic thread. Everytime I do, people say, "It doesn't matter you <insert insult>, he's INVINCIBLE. Yada yada Akuma. Blah Blah unstoppable. Yakkety yakkety it's going to get banned anyway."

I've said like 10 different ways to counter it in the 5 days people have known about it and everyone says that it would just take luck or something like that. You aren't considering human error which ALWAYS can occur. And, before I or anyone else ACTUALLY MOTHER ****ING DEALS WITH THIS **** IN A REAL MATCH INSTEAD OF JUST TALKING ABOUT IT OVER THE INTERNET, we probably shouldn't ban it except for the obvious reason that someone sitting in it for extended periods of time is stalling.

 

[acv]

I have been for the past 20 pages of this pathetic thread. Everytime I do, people say, "It doesn't matter you <insert insult>, he's INVINCIBLE. Yada yada Akuma. Blah Blah unstoppable. Yakkety yakkety it's going to get banned anyway."

I've said like 10 different ways to counter it in the 5 days people have known about it and everyone says that it would just take luck or something like that. You aren't considering human error which ALWAYS can occur. And, before I or anyone else ACTUALLY MOTHER ****ING DEALS WITH THIS **** IN A REAL MATCH INSTEAD OF JUST TALKING ABOUT IT OVER THE INTERNET, we probably shouldn't ban it except for the obvious reason that someone sitting in it for extended periods of time is stalling.

i have said that many times but nobody listens they just whine about it.i wont change my mind until someone shows a vid where it is done for more than 8 min and to show how broken it can be.

 

[Corigames]

I don't really doubt that someone could stall out the match with this thing, that's not what I'm arguing. I have a friend who plays Luigi in Melee and can go from the bottom of the stage to the top (exaggerated of course) using his down B. If he can do that, I bet people can do this for hours straight.

However, my argument is that people are bombing a country for having WMDs before exactly checking... I mean banning a move before making sure it really is broken. Yes, theoretically, this is an amazing move. It provides an excellent approach, someone can't really stop you from going into it, it can be used on any level, and it covers most any stage well. It's very good. However, it seems that no one is actually attempting to stop this and is just going right out to the ban. Which, I believe, is poor decision making. Am I bitter than MK got this? Yeah, I hate that guy. Why does he deserve this? I don't know >_> However, just to ban it because I don't like it or the character is just wrong.

 

[rathy Aro]

What uses could this have aside from stalling? Can you move with it? Are there anyways your movement can be detected? Can you attack while doing it or do you have to come out of down B to attack?

Thanks for any answers.

 

[acv]

What uses could this have aside from stalling? Can you move with it? Are there anyways your movement can be detected? Can you attack while doing it or do you have to come out of down B to attack?

Thanks for any answers.

its not to be bad or anything but they are answered a few pages back.

 

[Corigames]

OR in the op... in the youtube link... up and down the whole thread...

 

[rathy Aro]

Not in the op or the youtube page. That's just how you do it. Maybe in the thread but its 60 pages long and difficult to navigate. Well if no one wants to say I'll just look through tomorrow. Good night....

 

[AbsoluteZero255]

once again, I need to get rid of my b-sticking....

I'll try it. sounds cool.

 

[worldjem7]

How does one know if a bug destroys the game or even if a legitimate tactic destroys it? The rule of thumb is to assume it doesn’t and keep playing, because 99% of the time, as good as the tactic may be, there will either be a way to counter it or other even better tactics. Prematurely banning something is the scrub’s way. It prevents the scrub from ever discovering the counter to the Valle CC or the diamond trick. ...

... When players think they have found a game-breaking tactic, I advise them to go win some tournaments with it. If they can prove that the game really is reduced to just that tactic, then perhaps a ban is warranted. It’s extremely rare that a player is ever able to prove this though. In fact, I don’t even have any examples of it.

This will be the most common type of ban requested by players, and almost all of their requests will be foolish. Banning a tactic simply because it is “the best” isn’t even warranted. That only reduces the game to all the “second best” tactics, which isn’t necessarily any better of a game than the original game. In fact, it’s often worse! ...

... The most common case is that the player requesting the ban doesn’t fully grasp that the game is, in fact, not all about that one tactic. He should win several tournaments using mainly this tactic to prove his point. Another, far rarer possibility is that he’s right. The game really is shallow and centered on one thing (whether that one thing is a bug or by design is irrelevant). In that case, the best course of action is usually to abandon the game and play one of the hundreds of other readily available good games in the world.

I think I'm gonna go with Sirlin on this one and just wait and see how the tech will play out in tournaments. Not as a stalling tactic (as it would be banned for that anyway) but, as any other use.

Link

 

[Clevr]

I still don't get it, and don't want to scan through all of the pages to see if somebody already asked this.

Please excuse my laziness, but could somebody explain more clearly how to perform this move? I can't seem to to get it.

 

[IrArby]

Man **** it! Just leave it in for EVO and we'll all be privy to the gayest Smash vids evar.

I'm sure M2K (THE Best MK) has seen this, and has found ways, some I'm sure that we aren't focusing on so much, to use this and will probably **** everyone with it except perhaps other MKs.

If were lucky, this tech in the hands of 1000 cheap A$$ MKs with no self-respect, plus the inclusion of items in competitive Smash, will amount to a sufficent degree of F@ggotry to snap everyone out this Brawl BS so we can play a good game again.

 

[hippiedude92]

I think all hell broke loose when this tech was discovered and posted to the public lol.

 

[ShaolinAce]

Half the peaple in this topic don't main MK and don't frequent this board... >_>

 

[Affinity]

Man **** it! Just leave it in for EVO and we'll all be privy to the gayest Smash vids evar.

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=160306