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Meta Knight's Revenge: The Official Match-Up Thread *Wario* -> GO

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haloman800

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one thing ive learned about lucario is even though his dair out-prioritizes every move you have, it has ending lag, so if u can bait him to do one without getting hit in the face (it is hard) , punish its ending lag with a couple uairs, or a fair, and repeat.
 

haloman800

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(sorry for double post) il share the tiny bits of wisdom i have on shiek, if you know she wont shield grab or you know it will hit, drill rush acualy works pretty well for suprise approach, it leads into dtilt ftilt combo, its also a good recovery choice.

if you see her launchin her needles, jump. its pretty predictable and easy to dodge.

its pretty hard for shiek to get the kill on you (besides grab release), after 80% i usualy stick to floating dairs, spaced fairs and mainly trying to gimp at those damages. usualy or at least for me they switch to zelda, an Uair kills pretty decently, but if she switches to zelda try to sandbag her since she is heavyer than shiek and tornado works pretty well, just make sure you finish it or you might eat an Usmash, and DONT glide towards her. Her Usmash is very frusterating and almost always gets you when you glide.

I personaly love shuttle loop in this match, its invincibility frames at beginning will out prioritize all of her attacks. if you see a fsmash coming, shield grab it.
 

rocklee10

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Yeah, the match is deffinitly in MKs favor, I'd say 60/40, maybe 65/35. Shiek is easy to attack off stage, and because her Uspecial dosen't hurt you when she returns, she's very easily edge hogged. Her chain, when recovering, makes it easy for you to edge spike her.

The main things you gotta look out for are needles, (like heloman said, easy to dodge.) tilt chain, (Stay in the air untill she looses her footing.) and the grab at 80%+.
 

Tero.

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oh i was going to write so much about sheik and stuff but ... I'm too lazy

~.~
 

clowsui

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(sorry for double post) il share the tiny bits of wisdom i have on shiek, if you know she wont shield grab or you know it will hit, drill rush acualy works pretty well for suprise approach, it leads into dtilt ftilt combo, its also a good recovery choice.

<Wait, what? Shuttle Loop is so easy to misspace not to mention Sheik can do something called DI and run away -_-.>

if you see her launchin her needles, jump. its pretty predictable and easy to dodge.

<The needles aren't normally for damage...? They're for positioning purposes.>

its pretty hard for shiek to get the kill on you (besides grab release), after 80% i usualy stick to floating dairs, spaced fairs and mainly trying to gimp at those damages. usualy or at least for me they switch to zelda, an Uair kills pretty decently, but if she switches to zelda try to sandbag her since she is heavyer than shiek and tornado works pretty well, just make sure you finish it or you might eat an Usmash, and DONT glide towards her. Her Usmash is very frusterating and almost always gets you when you glide.

<No intelligent Sheik is going to switch to Zelda in this matchup. She is fat and gets tornadoed and can't SDI. which is why every smart Sheik stays Sheik. By the way have fun floating DAirs and Spacing Fairs when Sheiks run away to throw more needles or to bait misspaced moves to shield grab.>

I personaly love shuttle loop in this match, its invincibility frames at beginning will out prioritize all of her attacks. if you see a fsmash coming, shield grab it.

<FSMASH? LOL get real. lrn2play a REAL sheik please -_- also shuttle looping mindlessly will get you predicted and grabbed lol. one grab = 30% on sheik's good stages. most good sheiks will only be playing you games 1 and 3 unless you're dumb about CPing. shuttle looping unintelligently will also get you smacked with some needles later, sheik has the mobility to run away + charge needles>
10readmyresponses
 

JackieRabbit5

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revenge? i thought MK was already on top...
good thread though

yeah Sheik v MK is tough. she has needles, chain which may have more uses than u think, tiltlock, and grab release DACUS but i gotta say its not easy to pull off, timing has to be like perfect. MK has better range/priority otherwise and its an uphill battle
 

goodkid

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wow, no wonder mk is doing so well, they have this amazingly detailed match-up thread. I havent checked the rest of the char.us boards, but this has to be one of the best. If you talk about sheik, u have to talk about zelda. Mk's seem pretty clueless vs. zelda, this match is most likely 60:40, but zelda does pretty well vs. him. her up-smash b& dins destroys mks glide attempts. she can murder mk @ ridiculous % around 100-130 depending on DI & the stage. d-tilt works too well, shutting down dash approaches
 

Voyeur

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we actually brought the point up in our own discussion thread of to not leave out Zelda and agree that while she can get a good punishment game with spacing, Sheik already can do so much more and responds better to a lot of the threats MK poses.

(this is pretty much a re-cap of what Jackie said)
Needles and Chain both cancel and then out prioritize Meta Knight's Tornado
Grab Release + DACUS (Dash Attack Cancel to Up Smash) will get MK KO'ed at 90% or so
Ftilt-Lock is possible from a good 30-70% like most characters. You can try to DI up or towards us, with hitting Jump but a good Sheik can maintain the lock even with Di involved, and will prepare for the moment you escape with a quick punishment.

That isn't to say though Zelda shouldn't be exempt, since a viable Up Smash, F Smash or even a spike over the stage are viable ways to get early % kills off MK if they're not spacing properly or mess up. D-tilt lock to other combos like LK ect.

still she can't quite space and do better then Sheik when it comes to aerial combat, and that is where MK takes an upper hand with Shuttle loop and what not.
But I'd say the match is either 60-40 or 65-35 if you want. Though with the option of viable switch ups threw transformation to change game play style and even refresh decaying moves at key moments, I'm going to lean more to 60-40.
 

Zankoku

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"No intelligent Sheik is going to switch to Zelda in this matchup. She is fat and gets tornadoed and can't SDI."

I wasn't aware SDI was a character specific trait.
 

Tero.

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"No intelligent Sheik is going to switch to Zelda in this matchup. She is fat and gets tornadoed and can't SDI."

I wasn't aware SDI was a character specific trait.
MK has some kick *** SDI
 

TKD

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G&W and Wario info is outdated.

M2K himself told me that Hylian only stated that because M2K said it a while ago. The actual game plan against G&W is to be as campy as possible via random camping, but Fsmash doesn't work that well because they can keep away and if you're predictable Dair or full hop Bair you through it, plus grounded Shuttle Loops only do 9% when FRESH, so it's a pretty mediocre damage racking tool, when it could be played fresh for KO's.

Fsmashing at the ledge does not keep G&W away. They can use the ledge jump which can avoid the hit pretty easily if you're stuck Fsmashing.

Wario's a pretty even match-up. All the opponent has to do is camp, maneuver and find openings. Your job is to protect yourself by abusing range and trying to predict movement. Wario's also good at KO'ing, AT LEAST as good as Meta Knight, likely better. And he can recover well.

Also, I think that...

G&W and Wario are even match-ups,
Kirby and Fox are 6::4 MK's favor,
Sheik is 7::3/6::4 MK's favor,
IC are 8::2 MK's favor,
Samus is 7::3 MK's favor, and
Luigi is 7::3/6::4 MK's favor.

Why Kirby's not actually even. Kirby seriously lacks KO options. Since trying to Fsmash the opponent can get him beat up, his only reliable means of KO'ing is his Bair, which is also Kirby's main means of damage racking, so he has to try to refresh it at very high % to be able to KO. While recovering high, he's in danger of Shuttle Loop and he can get Dair'ed if he attempts to recover low.

Meta Knight also has better KO options, specially at the higher percents. The smashes KO at very good % if not DI'ed, and even while not KO'ing they set-up edgeguard attempts, the edgeguarding can get intense (while Kirby shouldn't be able to do anything to MK's recovery), and grounded Shuttle Loop KO's from 130%.

So now, why Fox isn't that bad. Fastest faller in the game. Interestingly, that makes him good.

Fox can full hop. If MK attempts an attack (fair, grab, ftilt, etc), Fox's fast-falling speed allows him to counter in time with a Dair. Dair can be followed up by Utilt or a grab depending on % or prediction. While MK is in the air, popped up by Utilt or Dthrow, it's easy for Fox to bait an airdodge and hit MK, or hit through their aerials with Nair, air-jumped or other. Fox can also jump into an aerial opponent and Dair - fast-fall to drag them all the way into the ground and follow up.

If the MK player shields as Fox full-hops, the Fox player actually has an air-jump AND the ability to footstool a shielding opponent, more than once! ...Or even fast-fall into either side of the opponent and grab them. A bit of delay means Fox's Dair actually shield pokes, too. Plus, fast-falling air dodges unpredictably, even into possibly Utilt/grab, is fairly safe for Fox thanks again to his falling speed. Short-hop fast-fall Bairs are good also for Fox and do good damage, and it's effective for him to attack opponents on platforms, even easier than it is for the MK opponent. Short-hopping can counter simpler approaches, like the opponent's dash-grab.

Fox's dash is very quick. Dashing and shielding as an approach is very good, since he can shield-grab the opponent, or if they shield, grab before they do, which isn't too hard since Fox's standing grab isn't slow. If there is a bit of damage to be made before MK is in danger of being KO'ed, the blaster helps too, while refreshing moves a bit per shot connected.

Also, Fox KO's fairly well with his strong Usmash from a Dair or, if the opponent messes up, a grab release jump break. If the opponent doesn't allow KO's, Fox can keep racking up damage to later KO with his strong Bair or Dair to Dsmash.

MK's strong points are his range which offers protection against punishment, and superior edgeguarding abilities (which may allow occasional gimps, but at least let him deal damage). Also, Fox has a hit-and-run/counter method of approaching the match, while Meta Knight can keep up pressure to some extent.

MK has an advantage against Fox, but it's not too big.

I don't want to elaborate on the rest of the match-ups. Those are the ones I feel are the most inaccurate. I personally think R.O.B. is 7 to 3 MK's favor, but some people disagree.

for some reason wolf is a good matchup for me in lylat.they should have matchups for certain places
That's a bit too in-deph. We just average from the neutrals. For example Snake and D3 would be 5/5 because Snake wins on BF and D3 wins on FD. He's likely 4.5/5.5 on MK now because he loses on BF and is even on the other two...or that's what's thought at the moment. Counter-picks usually make match-ups half a point or 1 point better anyway.
 

Panix

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G&W and Wario info is outdated.

M2K himself told me that Hylian only stated that because M2K said it a while ago. The actual game plan against G&W is to be as campy as possible via random camping, but Fsmash doesn't work that well because they can keep away and if you're predictable Dair or full hop Bair you through it, plus grounded Shuttle Loops only do 9% when FRESH, so it's a pretty mediocre damage racking tool, when it could be played fresh for KO's.

Fsmashing at the ledge does not keep G&W away. They can use the ledge jump which can avoid the hit pretty easily if you're stuck Fsmashing.

Wario's a pretty even match-up. All the opponent has to do is camp, maneuver and find openings. Your job is to protect yourself by abusing range and trying to predict movement. Wario's also good at KO'ing, AT LEAST as good as Meta Knight, likely better. And he can recover well.

Also, I think that...

G&W and Wario are even match-ups,
Kirby and Fox are 6::4 MK's favor,
Sheik is 7::3/6::4 MK's favor,
IC are 8::2 MK's favor,
Samus is 7::3 MK's favor, and
Luigi is 7::3/6::4 MK's favor.

Why Kirby's not actually even. Kirby seriously lacks KO options. Since trying to Fsmash the opponent can get him beat up, his only reliable means of KO'ing is his Bair, which is also Kirby's main means of damage racking, so he has to try to refresh it at very high % to be able to KO. While recovering high, he's in danger of Shuttle Loop and he can get Dair'ed if he attempts to recover low.

Meta Knight also has better KO options, specially at the higher percents. The smashes KO at very good % if not DI'ed, and even while not KO'ing they set-up edgeguard attempts, the edgeguarding can get intense (while Kirby shouldn't be able to do anything to MK's recovery), and grounded Shuttle Loop KO's from 130%.

So now, why Fox isn't that bad. Fastest faller in the game. Interestingly, that makes him good.

Fox can full hop. If MK attempts an attack (fair, grab, ftilt, etc), Fox's fast-falling speed allows him to counter in time with a Dair. Dair can be followed up by Utilt or a grab depending on % or prediction. While MK is in the air, popped up by Utilt or Dthrow, it's easy for Fox to bait an airdodge and hit MK, or hit through their aerials with Nair, air-jumped or other. Fox can also jump into an aerial opponent and Dair - fast-fall to drag them all the way into the ground and follow up.

If the MK player shields as Fox full-hops, the Fox player actually has an air-jump AND the ability to footstool a shielding opponent, more than once! ...Or even fast-fall into either side of the opponent and grab them. A bit of delay means Fox's Dair actually shield pokes, too. Plus, fast-falling air dodges unpredictably, even into possibly Utilt/grab, is fairly safe for Fox thanks again to his falling speed. Short-hop fast-fall Bairs are good also for Fox and do good damage, and it's effective for him to attack opponents on platforms, even easier than it is for the MK opponent. Short-hopping can counter simpler approaches, like the opponent's dash-grab.

Fox's dash is very quick. Dashing and shielding as an approach is very good, since he can shield-grab the opponent, or if they shield, grab before they do, which isn't too hard since Fox's standing grab isn't slow. If there is a bit of damage to be made before MK is in danger of being KO'ed, the blaster helps too, while refreshing moves a bit per shot connected.

Also, Fox KO's fairly well with his strong Usmash from a Dair or, if the opponent messes up, a grab release jump break. If the opponent doesn't allow KO's, Fox can keep racking up damage to later KO with his strong Bair or Dair to Dsmash.

MK's strong points are his range which offers protection against punishment, and superior edgeguarding abilities (which may allow occasional gimps, but at least let him deal damage). Also, Fox has a hit-and-run/counter method of approaching the match, while Meta Knight can keep up pressure to some extent.

MK has an advantage against Fox, but it's not too big.

I don't want to elaborate on the rest of the match-ups. Those are the ones I feel are the most inaccurate. I personally think R.O.B. is 7 to 3 MK's favor, but some people disagree.


That's a bit too in-deph. We just average from the neutrals. For example Snake and D3 would be 5/5 because Snake wins on BF and D3 wins on FD. He's likely 4.5/5.5 on MK now because he loses on BF and is even on the other two...or that's what's thought at the moment. Counter-picks usually make match-ups half a point or 1 point better anyway.
I don't think G&W is even close to a even match-up. meta-knight is way to versitile for that.
I do think MK vs Wario might be even.
 

Dismojoe

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This is the first time I have looked at this thread and I must say....its really funny to see the majority of the match-ups being 55:45 or 60:40.

I think we all know that is bull-crap. Meta-Knights ability to out-gimp, out-recover, out-space, and out-spam the majority of characters easily puts the majority of ratios at 70:30.
 

Affinity

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This is the first time I have looked at this thread and I must say....its really funny to see the majority of the match-ups being 55:45 or 60:40.

I think we all know that is bull-crap. Meta-Knights ability to out-gimp, out-recover, out-space, and out-spam the majority of characters easily puts the majority of ratios at 70:30.
:laugh:

No. The ratios in the guide are based on a higher level of play. There's no way the majority of the characters have that heavy of a disadvantage against him.
 

da K.I.D.

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as long as you people arent making rediculous claims like marth or DK going even with MK than its good by me.

also, apart from snake, who is the best character to use against MK?
 

Rickerdy-doo-da-day

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The Peach Boards are rediscussing the MK match up

Because Peach vs MK was done ages ago on our thread, I've made a rediscussion thread. Any input from MK mains with Peach experience would be great

Here's the link
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=222777

I was reluctant to do MK first since I think Peach was covered in your match up thread a while ago but...meh, he's on top right now and he wasn't when he was last discussed over here
 

Babar-Thorbald

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Well, I played France's best G&W, (and best player, since a few weeks) for 8 hours last week, and I too believe that G&W vs mk is even.
==> We tried a few things: And we started to think that shuttle loop was mk's main advantage vs. g&w, because I could spam it over and over, but after two matches of spamming on FD (easier to spam all the way)==> he found out that, if he shields the shuttle loop, he can easily counter the glide attack following the SL: a well spaced turtle: the turtle's first hit hits the glide attack (the two attacks erase each other), but the next hits actually hurt mk...
Then, I need to be really cautious when using SL.
G&W Dtilt outspaces mk's Dtilt (when you try to use dtilt to counter a g&w who spams dtilt, if you try to use mk's dtilt, mk does a little step, and this step makes you hit by g&w before you can hit him.
His Dair is punishable if you can predict it (with a well spaced uair... from the sides) or a shieldgrab, if perfect shielded, but is still quite hard to punish.
You MK mains can shieldgrab the turtle if the G&W misspaces (between the 4th and the 5th hit, or right after the 5th hit) but you have to make sure he misspaced.
His smashes are awfull...
They can kill you at ridiculous percents: I can't tell how many times I've been killed at 50-60ish percents because I was not careful enough/misspacing; But if you space well, his main killmove will be Fair: be careful, us mk (or at least me^^) are not really used to be edgeguarded (putting dittos aside)==> Try to airdodge it while jumping, because the hitboxe remains active for quite long time.

Against Fsmash==> If you are quite close to G&W, and quite reactive too, a dash attack is easy for punishing.

Then, if G&W kills you at ridiculous percents, it's quite harder for mk to get the kill==> Bucket break seriously needs to get banned ;D.
At the beginning, when he didn't know how to counter the glide attack (he trien to fsmash it... which actually doesn't work^^), it was my main killmove: 120% is a sure kill.
Fsmash is great too, kills around 120% too.
Now, a fresh Dsmash, or a fresh shuttle loop (quite rare, because I use it a lot for racking up damages: it annuls any of G&W's approaches) can kill at 130% (maybe less for the dsmash, depending on where on the stage you use it).
And a fresh Nair can kill around 140%.

(I'm not really sure of the numbers, but it should be around what I said)


In order to rack up damages: I use Fair, Nado (use with caution: If G&W predict it, he can punish it quite hard... A free Usmash/Fsmash is not what you want most...)
Notice that any of the upper sides of the tornado counters G&W's Dair.
Ftilt is great too, and shuttle loop is your most annoying move against G&Ws, don't forget to use it!
Dash attack is great against fsmash (already told it) and against G&W's neutral B.

When you try to recover, please remember to be careful: His dash attack's ledge spike is not something you'll like to take in the face^^.
I suggest you to recover with a drill rush, then, going down the ledge.
If he uses the dash attack: punish it with 1 or 2 Uair followed by a UpB, If he does nothing but sausage camping, either go away then use nado, or try to go back to the stage with an air dodge.
If he does nothing (waiting for you) try to Fair, airdodge, or Dair him.

When he tries to recover==> Don't alway try to hedgehog him: it will almost never work... -_-.

Rather wait for him (stay within a bit more than a fsmash of yours range) because if you stay near the ledge, he will Nair you from under the stage.


Remember that if he tries to go back with a nair, you can easily shieldgrab it (but remember: grab after the 4th (last)hit).







Then, I've said pretty much everything I know (and remember right now) about the matchup, from my own experience, I hope it'll help.

And to those who want to know, he won the majority of the games we played (usually last stock high percent, but he still won), because... Well, he is a better smasher than I am, that's all^^(we had a few (2 already, and one more tomorrow)"friendly tournaments" with lots of high ranked french players this week and last week, because we are on holiday, and I'm almost the only one who could win a single game against him... he 2-0/3-0 everyone... It's rather depressing^^).
But even with that, we both agreed that MK vs. G&W is 50:50.

Sorry if my english is quite terrible... I'm obviously not english^^.
 

brinboy789

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This is the first time I have looked at this thread and I must say....its really funny to see the majority of the match-ups being 55:45 or 60:40.

I think we all know that is bull-crap. Meta-Knights ability to out-gimp, out-recover, out-space, and out-spam the majority of characters easily puts the majority of ratios at 70:30.
you're...kidding, right? right? :dizzy::dizzy::dizzy::dizzy::dizzy::dizzy::dizzy::dizzy:
 

WingedKnight

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brinboy789 said:
you're...kidding, right? right? :dizzy:
Ignore these people. Some people really are just clueless. There will always be a handful of people who refuse to believe Meta Knight is beatable and may have disadvantages (*GASP* I went there!). This will never go away, just like people will not stop hyphenating or combining his name! XD
Meta Knight =/= Metaknight =/= Meta-Knight. Learn it, live it, respect it!
 

haloman800

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..if shiek just leave her chain out thinking you will run into it, nado and approach, kthnxbai.
 

Voyeur

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..if shiek just leave her chain out thinking you will run into it, nado and approach, kthnxbai.
The Chain doesn't have to stay on the floor. It can simply go up and out and it just cancels the tornado approach. I think only the side B can cancel and force our chain to retract and then there are disjointed hits from MK's swords but I'm not sure which ones have a fair enough reach over the chain.

taking Meta Knight to a low ceiling level also aids our DACUS/tipper KO's and hopefully the stage would also have far horizontal KO area, making it harder for MK.

Both characters have a really good edge guarding game, it's going to be who ever wants to take that risk to go ahead and play around with that. Pretty sure MK has the advantage but don't get cocky and let a Vanish stage spike catch you off guard.
 

OverLade

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MK vs. GaW is relatively even, though I think MK has a decent edge.

Wario is also even, definetly. Wario waft allows Wario to kill MK at 60%ish, while MK will kill a MK with good DI at 130+. Before you factor those things in, it's in MK's favor, but I personally think Wario is probbaly his 2nd or 3rd hardest matchup at the highest level.
 

DMG

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DMG#931
Wario's matchup with MK is dependant on what different "stalling" things are allowed.

If Wario's "air camping" is banned/severely limited, then it's probably 6:4 for MK.

If Planking is Banned and Wario's camping allowed, then IMO it actually can be in his favor or dead even depending on the stage. Also, bike tires are too good.

I'm also liking Diddy on a lot of stages vs MK.

G&W vs MK is in MK's favor at least 6:4. Could even be 65:35.
 

Tero.

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Wario's matchup with MK is dependant on what different "stalling" things are allowed.

If Wario's "air camping" is banned/severely limited, then it's probably 6:4 for MK.

If Planking is Banned and Wario's camping allowed, then IMO it actually can be in his favor or dead even depending on the stage. Also, bike tires are too good.

I'm also liking Diddy on a lot of stages vs MK.

G&W vs MK is in MK's favor at least 6:4. Could even be 65:35.
I don't agree with MK vs GaW 6:4, can you tell us why you think that?
I do agree with the rest tho
MK:Sonic 55:45 sounds legit
 

DMG

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DMG#931
I don't agree with MK vs GaW 6:4, can you tell us why you think that?
I do agree with the rest tho
MK:Sonic 55:45 sounds legit
MK's grounded Upb destroys G&W's aerial approaches. G&W's ground game cannot compete with MK's ground game and his aerial approaches get stuffed kinda like Marth vs G&W.

G&W also has the problem landing a kill move like usual and he can't edgeguard MK like he can other characters to try and get an advantage.

I think it's 6:4 for MK at the very least.
 

Browny

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isnt G&W dthrow -> dsmash (sourspot) on MK unavoidable?
not that it really matters since mk is hard as hell to grab and G&W has poor grab range, but it can KO at reasonable %'s...
 

DMG

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DMG#931
He can tech the Dthrow. If he doesn't, then yes it is guaranteed. I actually think Fsmash is also guaranteed too, but you have to be fairly strict on the timing. That and if you guess the wrong direction you will miss.

Problem is getting the grab in the first place though lol.
 

xX-LeaF-Xx

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Dreaming about eating pie.
Regarding the MK vs DK matchup, did anyone know that once DK is above you in the sky, it getss much easier to kill him? That includes his recovery. It can be broken from under him much easier than above him. At lower %'s, chaining a uair with a shuttle loop offstage when a DK tries to recover is a pretty easy kill, or at least it was when I was playing my cousin yesterday, who mains DK..

Or maybe I'm just an idiot and this was already discovered...Or maybe I'm just an idiot. Either way, it was just an observation I made yesterday that I felt like sharing.
 
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