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Meta Knight's Revenge: The Official Match-Up Thread *Wario* -> GO

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Staco

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I dont think kirby has got an 40:60 mu against mk @ tkd

the hammer is another good kill move of kirby and if meta dodges the first hit the second can hit
can be really good to kill meta

I think that it is a 45:55 mu


oh, and planking meta should get +5 or 10 at every mu against a char who has to go offstage to punish a planking meta
this chars mostly cant do anything against it and stagespikes wont work if the mk techs it/ has got low % <<
the mk gets good chances to gimp the opponent or starting an aerial combo =/
Im still waiting for getting planking banned ...


and I think diddy vs. meta ist better than the most of the other chars, maybe even? 45:55/50:50


the shiek mu:
I dont think, that this is too ****ing bad for shiek
meta will have some trouble
he has to approach and shiek can ftilt the meta
meta needs good spacing and aerial camping or he will get into a tilt string/will get grabbed/will punished by needles

shiek can kill meta with the grab release and she can use a well timed dacus

I think its 60:40, but nothing like 65:35 or higher for meta

air camping can be punished with shieks aerials, if used right
 

OverLade

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I think MK's closest matchups at the highest level in order are

MK
Snake
Wario
Diddy
GaW

Just throwing that out there.
 

Shadow 111

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I think MK's closest matchups at the highest level in order are

MK
Snake
Wario
Diddy
Wario
GaW

Just throwing that out there.
i gotta play these west coast warios lol. i've heard from all you westcoast players that wario can be almost even vs mk. too bad we don't have any wario mains over here who can play that well against him :(
 

OverLade

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i gotta play these west coast warios lol. i've heard from all you westcoast players that wario can be almost even vs mk. too bad we don't have any wario mains over here who can play that well against him :(
We have Afro Thundah and Reflex in ATL south. :D

But I have no doubt in my mind Wario vs. MK is definetly very close.

Lets look on paper.

To kill a wario with good DI, MK needs a fresh Dsmash at 140%, OR a gimp, and Wario is very difficult to gimp.

Wario can kill MK at 50% with a 1 minute fart. All it takes is one mistake by the MK player. So even if MK plays flawlessly, Wario will have countless oppurtunities to pull ahead or bring the match back to even.

I dont even has to get into all the gay things he can punish. >_>

There are some moves you CAN'T even use in the matchup because a fart might make you regret it.
 

ssbbFICTION

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When a MK knows the matchup really well its still in his favor. His only problem is killing. Wario can bike break the dsmash to unnaturally high percents. On stages like battlefield wario has a nasty time >_<
 

PhantomX

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I also agree it's pretty even. Dojo says one of his worst matchups is Wario (or at least he says that now that he's faced more than just DMG XD). I lived to 180 on him, he had the stalest dsmash I'd ever seen, but it was the only "killer" he could land on me.

It's too easy for us to airdodge and weave away from your followups.

You'll be doing ****loads of damage, but we'll be killing WAY sooner.
 

Affinity

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Went ahead and made Zero Suit Samus our current discussion by request, considering nobody seems to want to discuss the Sheik match-up.
 

Staco

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I think the snake vs. meta mu could be even or in snakes opinion, if the snake uses the right recovery tactics
then the only big problem for snake would be crazy zero death or high damage offstage combos

for recovery the snake simply has to go high then nikita (while moving forward), granate/nikita/c4 turnaround and using the first nikita as a shield to land safely (if meta attacks the nikita will hit him)

snake wouldnt have the problem to come down at the stage (if you dont know, what I want you to tell, watch ally vs. m2k 2nd match at fd, the end of the first stock allys % from ~70-end, thats one big problem for snake; simple fast fall + airdodge doesnt work well)
 

Staco

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simply dont get grabbed
falco can chaingrab mk to 60%, too, but the most good mks wont get chaingrabbed ;)
 

TKD

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Pikachu's "Downthrow chain"

confirmed today by 3 pikachus or so. And its still going for other characters like Falco and DDD (both confirmed to 100% and 90% respectively)
I tested those. MK's also.

EDIT: Thought they were wrong, but no, the chaingrabs are just really % specific or even weird in a couple cases.

PS: SH nair as a follow-up can be footstooled by MK, but full-hop nair cannot. So you can chaingrab MK from 10% into a FH nair I guess. It's way too % specific so it's not better than Falco's.
 

haloman800

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PLEASE add a counter picking and ban section. i cant tell u how many countless matches ive lost because i dont know what to CP
 

Affinity

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PLEASE add a counter picking and ban section. i cant tell u how many countless matches ive lost because i dont know what to CP
Good idea. Let's put the character discussions on hold (since they seem to not be happening anyway) and discuss stage counterpicks/bans for each match-up discussed so far.

I'll post my opinions later on today.

:metaknight:
 

rocklee10

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DO what I do. Norfair & Japes wins everytime. Except Japes when versing Falco, >.>
 

Affinity

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Yeah, I knew that.

The jump-break is caused by grabbing the other MK while they're in the air or if they input a jump command while being grabbed, right?
 

Shadow 111

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Yeah, I knew that.

The jump-break is caused by grabbing the other MK while they're in the air or if they input a jump command while being grabbed, right?
i dunno about if you grab them while they're in the air. is that correct? i know that if they jump while trying to break out it'll happen and that being grabbed off the ledge will make you jump-break as well.
 

Staco

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I think the MK vs. Marth MU should be changed from 65:35 to 60:40

marths tilts can beat mks tilts and he can grab mk for a free tippered fair

he can kill meta out of grab release with up b

he can kill meta really early

he can fight meta in the air, without having much trouble, because of his long range

and if he uses good di he is extremly hard to gimp

his edge possibility arent that bad
after leaving the edge, the fair can hit over the stage like gaws nair and then you can go back to the edge with up b

he doesnt have much trouble with tornado, if he is played right

his side b is really annoying and is hard to di, if he uses it really fast


for me this mu is even on tha stage

the differences are:
marth can kill earlier if he gets a nice hit
meta can get an early gimp and kill marth with it

marths lucky early kill needs some %, metas early gimp needs less % than the kill

I think that is the only big differnce which makes this mu in metas opinion

so I think 60:40


oh, and I think marth could be played better than the atm best marth players do, so dont look at actual marth vs. meta vids
the only good example vids for the mu I know are the havok vs. tkd vids:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txygATa2P7k&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U74Du6xZh7M&feature=related
 

Blistering Speed

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You underrate MK in virtually every matchup you talk about.

For the record, unless the Sheik can consistenly perfect chain camp (no-one as of yet), then the matchup is no better for Sheik then 65:35 MK's favour in my educated opinion.

If you want to debate it, the Sheik boards just started a new MU thread and we've started with MK, please come discuss it, MK input is scarce at this moment in time.
 

Gates

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We're discussing Metaknight this week in the Dedede matchup thread.

I'm not sure why.
 

M@v

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Fox vs MK

Hey guys, since were not allowed to make the matchup notification threads Im posting here. Since fox boards is wrapping up the last person we havent covered yet(PT), we are going back and tearing apart old matchups, and updating them with the times. We are covering EVERYTHING this time around, strategies, stage picks, frame datas, advantages, disadvantages, you name it, its probably there. Anyway, MK is one of the first one's we are doing, since people have many varying opinions of the matchup.

Thread--> http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=6980994#post6980994 (Its a separate thread, NOT the matchup guide).

Lets figure out once and for all what this matchup really is, if fox truly does bad, or is a decent mk fighter.
 

Staco

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You underrate MK in virtually every matchup you talk about.
maybe :p

from clowsui:
- flat stages with less platforms, that way metaknight is forced to approach in a specific way ie at you from the air or at you from the ground, none of this through platforms junk. i suggest FD if they don't ban it, followed by Halberd, followed by SV, followed by PS1

- with proper shield tilting habits tornado is dangerous to use against sheik unless she's put in a bad shielding position, getting needles'd for 20% or getting straight up grabbed in tornado lag is annoying. mk can retreat with the tornado though...but once he floats away he's not really going to come back so just charge needles.

- speaking of needles: use them in this matchup. needle camp intelligently; make an effort to create pressure for the MK seeing as this is your basic option against him that's always guaranteed to do something good at mid-range or long-range. don't use it at short range. needles are always fun to throw at MKs when he's away from the stage because they put him in an awkward position where he has to waste a jump or two to recover the lost height OR he can just drop below. either way it's just kind of funny and a smart move to do anyways since it's a free 18%

- you must recover (!!) in MULTIPLE ways. if you're at a lower percent you can afford to get hit, so just keep mixing up your recoveries so that later on he's guessing. hell even at higher percents just make an effort to mix it up. MK can punish predictable recoveries in so many different ways -___- Also try not to recover from below that much, smart MKs will notice that once you cross a specific line your chain is no longer a very safe option if they go down there...

- i don't care that you think it's a kill move. when you get a grab, don't throw them. just release, dacus. it's a free 30% each time, +5% for pummels if he's at a higher percentage. the chances for a grab are so slim in this matchup that you will have a refreshed usmash EVERY time.

- ftilt. yeahhhhh his ftilt is kind of broken too, even moreso than yours. at lower percents just double ftilt -> aerial and stuff. if he makes dumb approaches just ftilt -> dsmash him or something. of course, lock when possible; though getting the usmash may be difficult?

- chain is something i have yet to test. i'll be recording against OS probably on sunday (and i'll most likely forget what I'm saying here -__-) so i'll get back to you guys on that. in general you're just going to have to be really careful about chain, he attacks faster than you retract so >___>;

- badly spaced bairs get you up B'd. don't space your bairs badly. alternative options for MK for badly spaced bairs are: at mid range, SH Fair, if he's feeling risky at mid range, uair, if you're really bad at spacing, nair. if you're at long range and spamming bairs at him you're doing it wrong, he can just dash shield under you unless he's in inital dash...but trying to space with his initial dash range in mind is just crazy because all of his aerial options + his grab are dumb good

- don't hesitate to go after MK if he starts recovering low...if it's an obvious loop then just kinda drop off and bair, most of the time you'll clash with the top of the loop and you'll get sent towards the stage while he goes away for a few moments. it's only 8% with bad knockback, your bair hits him for a good amount too right? with the rush if it's obvious that it's going to happen you're going to want to try and drop -> chain with some chain left to retract.

- if you have to throw...dthrow or something. use fthrows when you feel as though you've got a hang of their DI patterns or you just wanna try and throw them off. throws should be used to get a general sense of whether they know how to properly DI and stuff...if they know how to DI useless moves like Sheik's grab then I would say it's likely that they know how to DI the other stuff though this may be wrong. just don't try to throw offensively, instead just find time to charge needles.

- use zelda if you want. it doesn't make this any easier really because you lose the advantage but gain it in other areas. i'd stay with this ninja because she's fast and stuff not to mention needles =)

- jab cancelling or dtilt shield pressure might lead to some 623P shenanigans from MK, so just jab cancel to grab works. i dunno when you're ever going to pressure MK's shield so much that he forgets to grab though, sheik's shield pressure options are pretty piss poor against MK

- i dunno about using nair/utilt/jabs in this...i'm especially wary of nair since it's low priority is a pain. it's startup and nice damage when strong is pretty cool though, i'm just really not sure when to use it vs. MK, ever. maybe OOS? UTilt I'm not sure about either, the jab combo too. UTilt maybe when he's flying at you with the glide? someone test that.

- FAirrrrrrr....I dislike this aerial against people who have good range. I play against people who MAIN character with good range. therefore someone inform us about this.

- UAir is okay, just don't be surprised when dairs start coming your way.

- against the shuttle loop you'll want to hold towards the stage for an easy DI, sheik's light though so be sure to DI it right. when you're descending you're going to have to play a guessing game, which is unfortunate given metaknight's ridiculous options. with dsmash DI straight up, it's always sending you horizontal. screw dair, don't DI that move just get the **** away. fair tap DI out. uair just...try to get away >_> nair you should be getting hit with as a kill or punishment so play smart to avoid this, it's a single hitter so DI is not happening, really. i never observe the trajectory because most times when i get hit by a nair it's in a situation where once i get hit i'm fukked.

- when doing the getup most metaknights will either grab, dsmash, fsmash or dtilt/ftilt. getup -> shield will get rid of a lot of these options. just...try to keep them guessing so that you're not hit by any of these. meta****'s ledge traps + sheik's terribad options to escape out of ledge traps = ouch. don't do full ledge hop or ledge hop aerial btw, it's really stupid. ledge hop airdodges are also not that great. so either shield, roll, or getup -> dodge. get up to jab might push him back even in shield? i dunno, just don't ever full ledge hop or ledge hop air dodge or ledge hop aerial.

in general metaknight is dumb. just....don't try to do anything ******** and stick to the basics: needle camping, critical spacing with ftilts/critical decay with ftilts, and good shield/di habits. the only real "gimmick"/trick here is GR -> Usmash. Do it consistently so as to get the tipper; the later you do input it (though the window is small there's enough time where you hitting him will depend on when you input) the more of the "side" boxes you'll get. ideally you want the tipper or the double/triple hit though the multi-hits will be a problem if they're at low enough percents.
but Shiek boards rated it 60:40 and this text really shows why
of course the most MUs often seem to be in metas opinion, but we speak about two very good players
if mk makes mistakes he wont be punished as hard as the most other chars
if two not so perfect players play, the mu seems to be a little bit more in metas opinion ;)
60:40 theory MU
65:35 practice MU (how the shieks do atm) ;)


Pika got a new chaingrab at meta
I already saw anther using it in a match against bowyer

should the mu get changed from 65:36 to 60:40?
 

MrEh

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The jump-break is caused by grabbing the other MK while they're in the air or if they input a jump command while being grabbed, right?
Look at the victim's feet when they're being grabbed. If their feet are dangling above the ground, then they'll Jump Release automatically. That's the reason why characters are forced to Jump Release if they're grabbed over a ledge.

Otherwise, the only way to get them to jump release is if they input a jump command.
 

magikguy

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gimme some tips on how to edge guard dk offstage, spinning kong saves him too much. Also if i get caught in the spnning kong what way should i di :(?
 

Shadow 111

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gimme some tips on how to edge guard dk offstage, spinning kong saves him too much. Also if i get caught in the spnning kong what way should i di :(?
nair actually breaks his up b. i dunno if any of you knew that. you have to time it well though. i'm pretty sure that if done correctly it will always work because i use it a lottt vs dk and if i time it correctly it always hits him out of it.
 

Staco

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to beat dks up b I mostly use bair

I wait for him to go down when he is offstage
if he trys to up b before he is in the heights of the edge I fair, nair, tornado or up b him from below
if he recovers from below the edge I hang down at the edge
the dk will come with up b (meta edge invincible frames are over)
then I simpy leave the edge and bair the dk out of his up b
 

Tero.

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Nair works best.

Uair works but will mostly stop your edgeguarding attempt.
 
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