Meta Knight's Revenge: The Official Match-Up Thread *Wario* -> GO

[Affinity]

Do you mind if I ask who you are covering after Kirby?

Wanna request a section?

 

[Omega_Star]

I have found that when facing Diddy it is effective to stay in the air. If a banana hits you while you are on the ground, you'll trip and then get *****, but if a banana hits you in the air, you'll just fall down a bit as is usual when you are hit with a weak projectile while airborne. I play against Le THieN (one of the top Diddy Kong players for those who do not know), and this strategy has proved quite effective. I've won a good number of the latest friendlies we've played, and THieN has noted that it is difficult for Diddy to deal with Meta Knight's dair camping.

 

[brinboy789]

Wanna request a section?

how about fox? i seem to have problems with fox...

 

[Omega_Star]

Fox would actually be a pretty good character to cover, considering recent debate and the performance of Azen's Fox against M2K at ECRC. Plus, my roommate has picked up Fox so I could contribute to the discussion with my experiences.

 

[Chis]

Could you do Sonic please? I would personally find it interesting, but if you want Fox that's fine.

 

[Tero.]

Sonic is kinda weird if you play him the first time (ofc only if it is a good sonic), so i'm fine with sonic next.

 

[Affinity]

Fox and Sonic sections are up; waiting for input.
.

 

[Camalange]

Hey, Sonic match up eh?

I find the match up to be 60:40 imho, since Sonic is one of the few characters that can actually punish MK's moves with his speed.

Sonic can also fair pretty well against Uair juggles and shuttle loop with spring and such.

I'll come up with more in a second.

 

[Tero.]

Okay, then let's do Fox
(I have more experience in this matchup anyway)

Ground Game:
Fox ground game isn't that good, his utilt is good, but he will mostly use it after aerials, especially dair. His smashes are ok, well usmash is ****, fsmash is kinda ok he will try to punish spot dodges and rolls with it, because the hitbox stays out for quite a while, dsmash is pretty fast and does decent % but it only kills at higher %.
He will hardly use any tilts beside utilt anyway (ftilt isn't that bad, but it's underused), Fox Jab is pretty good tho if he does jab cancel to *insert move here*, it also combos from dair
So bascally if we compare his ground game to mks ground game:
- MK has more range
- MK has more priority
- MK is faster
- MK is MK
So yeah, nuff said.

Air Game:
Fox will mostly rely on aerials, because all of them are rather good.
Nair is pretty fast, normally he would use this for edgeguarding, but it doesn't work quite well against meta knights superior recovery.
They will mostly use fair for approaching and dair to set up combos. Uair will kill MK really early if it hits, but the startup is pretty slow and it has lots of landing lag, so make sure you don't get hit.
Fox aerials are ok, but most of your aerials are faster and have more priority, so yeah actually it's pretty similar to the ground game.

Recovery:
Fox really has a hard time edgeguarding MK (well everyone has) so yeah can't say much about that.

Edgeguarding:
Firefox has way to much startup time, so hit him while he's charging it. If he is below the edge he has no option but to firefox again -> dair -> repeat = Fox is dead
Illusion is pretty fast and you will have a harder time punishing it than firefox, nair is probably the best option to punish it, you can predict where he will go and then shield it and dsmash oos (but remember that he can shorten his illusion).

If you read this you will probably think that MK utterly destroys Fox, but Fox still has some tools against MK.
Fox laser is good and he will use it often. Properties of the laser:
- If he spams it you have to approach, so you have a hard time playing defensive
- Every laser that hits you will refresh Fox moves
So what Fox is going to do most of the time in this matchup:
laser, laser, laser, some fairs, some dairs to utilt to stuff, some grabs, laser, laser, USMASH ****. There you go: Fox has one of the best usmashes in the game. Usmash will kill you at ridiculous and it's super fast and even if he spams it he can refresh it with his lasers. We all know that MK is pretty light and is very vulnerable to vertical kill moves.
Anyway: Fox is pretty light, too. so you won't have much trouble killing him.



wow this has gotten really long oO please excuse my bad english.

 

[Camalange]

lol, okay. I'll visit some other time then ;o

 

[da K.I.D.]

so...

I play sonic the hedgehog.

I get beat by every metaknight I play.

I surprise the MKs I play by coming very close to beating them
Sonic boards will admit that theres about 10 sonics more or less at the top level that this discussion will be considering, and I personally can probably name them all and tell you where they live.
personally Id say the match is 65-35 MKs favor.

listen to me very carefully.

Basics are absolutely crucial to beating sonic.
Dont get gimmicky in anyway, sonic rips that garbage.
1. dont shuttle loop unless theres someform of mindgames behind it. Sonics train this match to be able to spring on reaction to shuttle loop. so if you shuttle loop in the air, theres a good chance that we will spring and you will actually get comboed into the inevitable down air that comes after 80% of sonics spring jumps.
2. use tornado sparingly. sonic is light enough that DI and SDI will get him high enough to where he can spring out of it, and the spring will damage MK.
3. dont spam down smash, if you use it more than once at a time, you are asking us to get jump over it and back air you in the face. (BTW, back air is our best move, watch out for it at all percents, back air does great damage and pretty much always sets up for follow ups no matter the staleness or the damage. the only time it doesnt set up for anything is when it kills, which for MK should be around teh 120-130 mark from the middle of final D fresh)
4. shuttle loop on the ground if shielded is punishable with a hyphen smash or a f air, this requires strict timing for the sonic, so it doesnt happen too often if you arent spamming it.

5. As far as I can tell all you really, really have to do to beat sonic, is know how to approach and how to defend appraches.
approach:
spaced f air fast fallen to down tilt, its ***** sonic since brawl came out, the only thing thats changed is that most MKs are out there trying to do cool stuff instead of spamming the bs that works.
Defending.
I played a really good MK this past sat. and I noticed that theres really no approach that we have that can really touch you if you train yourselves to FH down air on reaction to any sonic approaches.

how ever, sonics are very good at faking approaches and baiting moves from you. we have a way to cancel just about everything we do. so we can try to make you react a certain way and than punish you for it.

also for some reason, MK is very susceptable to spindash combos. he should take at least 20% from each one.
also, something MKs need to reallise, Sonics will try to f smash you for the kill, and we have 3-4 different mindgamey setups for it. its also disjointed and has more range than it seems. we will try to space you into f smashes and we will charge them to anticipate that whole spot dodging thing some of you like so much, and just know that a f smash charged for the duration of a spotdodge, that hits at the edge of final D, will kill around 90

so inconclusion
dont try to be fancy.
spam SHFF fairs into down tilts
FH down air all his approaches,
go for a down air gimp every once in a while,
and know that sonic will learn your tendancies and punish them if we can forced you to do them when we want you to.

 

[da K.I.D.]

you guys suck...

i didnt see that while i was posting this... oh well w/e you can come back and find this when you do talk about sonic

 

[MalcolmM]

60:40 MK vs Fox

55:45 MK vs sonic

 

[AndrewCarlson]

Can we also discuss Zero Suit Samus or the Ice Climbers? And after some re-discussion, the Marth boards have reduced the match-up ratio from 65:35 to 60:40 in Meta Knight's favor.

 

[Jim Morrison]

As the great Overswarm once said:

"MK's D-tilt beats out every approach Sonic has"

D-tilt more in this matchup. However, this could also be lie to trick you into D-tilting to be hit by spinshot > B-air. But, yea I'm a bad Sonic.

 

[Affinity]

55:45 MK vs sonic

I lol'd

 

[MalcolmM]

I lol'd

R u going to cot4? 10$ MM since u thinkits such an error...

 

[Tero.]

Okay, then let's do Fox
(I have more experience in this matchup anyway)

Ground Game:
Fox ground game isn't that good, his utilt is good, but he will mostly use it after aerials, especially dair. His smashes are ok, well usmash is ****, fsmash is kinda ok he will try to punish spot dodges and rolls with it, because the hitbox stays out for quite a while, dsmash is pretty fast and does decent % but it only kills at higher %.
He will hardly use any tilts beside utilt anyway (ftilt isn't that bad, but it's underused), Fox Jab is pretty good tho if he does jab cancel to *insert move here*, it also combos from dair
So bascally if we compare his ground game to mks ground game:
- MK has more range
- MK has more priority
- MK is faster
- MK is MK
So yeah, nuff said.

Air Game:
Fox will mostly rely on aerials, because all of them are rather good.
Nair is pretty fast, normally he would use this for edgeguarding, but it doesn't work quite well against meta knights superior recovery.
They will mostly use fair for approaching and dair to set up combos. Uair will kill MK really early if it hits, but the startup is pretty slow and it has lots of landing lag, so make sure you don't get hit.
Fox aerials are ok, but most of your aerials are faster and have more priority, so yeah actually it's pretty similar to the ground game.

Recovery:
Fox really has a hard time edgeguarding MK (well everyone has) so yeah can't say much about that.

Edgeguarding:
Firefox has way to much startup time, so hit him while he's charging it. If he is below the edge he has no option but to firefox again -> dair -> repeat = Fox is dead
Illusion is pretty fast and you will have a harder time punishing it than firefox, nair is probably the best option to punish it, you can predict where he will go and then shield it and dsmash oos (but remember that he can shorten his illusion).

If you read this you will probably think that MK utterly destroys Fox, but Fox still has some tools against MK.
Fox laser is good and he will use it often. Properties of the laser:
- If he spams it you have to approach, so you have a hard time playing defensive
- Every laser that hits you will refresh Fox moves
So what Fox is going to do most of the time in this matchup:
laser, laser, laser, some fairs, some dairs to utilt to stuff, some grabs, laser, laser, USMASH ****. There you go: Fox has one of the best usmashes in the game. Usmash will kill you at ridiculous and it's super fast and even if he spams it he can refresh it with his lasers. We all know that MK is pretty light and is very vulnerable to vertical kill moves.
Anyway: Fox is pretty light, too. so you won't have much trouble killing him.



wow this has gotten really long oO please excuse my bad english.

in conclusion i have to say 70:30 or 65:35 in favor of MK.

 

[Snowstalker]

How about we discuss a really bad character (like Ganon) for lulz? Also, why does everyone say that Snake baets MK, but both the MK and Snake matchup threads say otherwise?

 

[brinboy789]

How about we discuss a really bad character (like Ganon) for lulz? Also, why does everyone say that Snake baets MK, but both the MK and Snake matchup threads say otherwise?

because its terribly outdated.

 

[Nic64]

No, you get differing opinions because there isn't a consensus on that issue...most people believe it is near even regardless of which character is slightly favored, in any case.

 

[Affinity]

because its terribly outdated.

lol No

I actually updated the Snake section pretty recently. I just still don't see how Snake has the advantage against MK. I've read a lot of discussion, but I'm not convinced.

If someone can prove me wrong, I'll change it.

 

[Deoxys]

lol No

I actually updated the Snake section pretty recently. I just still don't see how Snake has the advantage against MK. I've read a lot of discussion, but I'm not convinced.

If someone can prove me wrong, I'll change it.

You really think Falco and Snake do equally well against MK? To me the difference is pretty noticable. Are there any good Snakes in Kansas? From what I've heard, very few top level MK mains agree that it's in MK's favor. Most say it's equal or slightly in Snake's.

Also, don't listen to da K.I.D. when he says stupid stuff like Sonic's bair is better than his downb. The rest of his analysis is pretty accurate though.

If Sonic charges Fsmash, walk away and Fsmash. MK's Fsmash has more range.


Also, if we want to discuss a stupid matchup, we should do Captain Falcon, which I'm almost positive is MK's best matchup. Like 95/5.

 

[Gates]

You guys should discuss Ice Climbers. It's a relevant matchup and it's also intensely in your favor, so you'll be doing something productive while having a bunch of lulz.

 

[Tero.]

I agree.
IC's would be cool, I also have pretty much IC experience

oh and I forgot to write something about Sonic lulz, maybe tomorrow

 

[Nic64]

You really think Falco and Snake do equally well against MK? To me the difference is pretty noticable.

I don't think the opinion is that eyebrow raising, I think snake is better against MK than Falco but I could see someone disagreeing. as someone who plays all three characters, my perspectives on this are conflicting, I'd rather face MK with snake, but as MK I'd rather see my opponent pick snake than falco actually. maybe that's because I know the MK vs Snake matchup better such that I feel more comfortable in it from either side, but idk, falco actually poses more of a problem to me playing MK usually than snake, falco and olimar are probably the two characters I do worst against as MK, even though I believe snake is, on paper, much harder for meta knight. things can get weird when you try to match personal experiences to theory crafting

 

[Tero.]

Fox and Sonic sections are up; waiting for input.
.

Sonic:

Ground Game: Sonics tilts are kinda good, he has good range, but definitly not as much priority, actually i would suggest beeing more in the air than on the ground against sonic.

Air Game: Sonics aerials are decent, nothing compared to MKs tho. However you should pay attention to his bair, it's kinda fast and has good range. Uair can kill MK at pretty low %, be aware of their upB, they can up B -> uair for suprising kills. Be aware of Sonics hyphen smash when youre in the air, they gonna do it a lot.

Edgeguard: Sonic can't actually eg MK, period.

Specials: You should avoid spamming your specials, especially tornado, because Sonic can run away and then Bair or Fsmash (only if angled up iirc) you out of it. Ftilt goes through Sonic spinning thing specials on the ground afaik so you can just ftilt them when they rush at you (someone confirm this?)

General stuff: Sonic is weird, but MK definitly has a big advantage, just because he is MK (priority, range and stuff u know). Sonic has no projectile so he can't camp you, you can play offensive or defensive, just as you wish. You should stick to your aerials and avoid spamming specials and you'll be fine.

70:30 MK

 

[Orange_Soda_Man]

I'd watch a couple of RATS/Espy's vids if you haven't seen too much of high-OP sonic play.
ex
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lbZgu7apag&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Fu3ZhkR0lA&fmt=18

Matchup is mid/heavy MK favor imo. your SHFF Fair is really nice.

 

[Crizthakidd]

when did u put those new pics up lol omg some are so 1337 like the DK and mk

you guys need to fight prides yoshi and top diddy / olimar players it makes the matchup more thought then normal ugh ima read some tips in this thread thanks

 

[Chis]

Sonic:

Ground Game: Sonics tilts are kinda good, he has good range, but definitly not as much priority, actually i would suggest beeing more in the air than on the ground against sonic.

No, no, no.

Sonic's ground game is based on bait and punishing. He can also go offensive. MK has better OoS options then Sonic and is a lot less punishable due to the speed of his attacks.

Air Game: Sonics aerials are decent, nothing compared to MKs tho. However you should pay attention to his bair, it's kinda fast and has good range. Uair can kill MK at pretty low %, be aware of their upB, they can up B -> uair for suprising kills. Be aware of Sonics hyphen smash when youre in the air, they gonna do it a lot.

His Bair is not that good. His Bair, Fair and Uair is disjointed. But MK's aerial would beat that. However Uair > MK's aerials. Up smash as invensy frames but lag makes it unpunishable. Fear Uptilt more.

Edgeguard: Sonic can't actually eg MK, period.

I'm not sure...

Specials: You should avoid spamming your specials, especially tornado, because Sonic can run away and then Bair or Fsmash (only if angled up iirc) you out of it. Ftilt goes through Sonic spinning thing specials on the ground afaik so you can just ftilt them when they rush at you (someone confirm this?)

Sonic's speed allows him to run away for MT but also punish a retreating one. His HA can hit you from above the MT if done right. The spring and Dair the same. Dair > shuttle swoop IIRC. Fair > Mach drill thingy

General stuff: Sonic is weird, but MK definitely has a big advantage, just because he is MK (priority, range and stuff u know). Sonic has no projectile so he can't camp you, you can play offensive or defensive, just as you wish. You should stick to your aerials and avoid spamming specials and you'll be fine.

Be defencive.

70:30 MK

Too large.

60:40 to 65: 35 MK

More later, maybe

 

[brinboy789]

Too large.

60:40 to 65: 35 MK

More later, maybe

i remember da KID saying that MK was the only person that makes sonic unviable for tourney play...O.o

anyways, i dont have much experience with the sonic or fox, so i'll have to wait

 

[MalcolmM]

55:45 MK. ask any1 whos actually played the matchup against a good sonic. stop basing the matchups off of lololsoniclolol and actually find ppl who have matchup experience. there are quite a few of them as ive played alot of MKs. and im sure any other good sonic has as well since uh...hes everywhere.

 

[Affinity]

when did u put those new pics up lol omg some are so 1337 like the DK and mk

Like, October.

Haven't been around these parts in a while, have you?

 

[Chis]

i remember da KID saying that MK was the only person that makes sonic unviable for tourney play...O.o

anyways, i dont have much experience with the sonic or fox, so i'll have to wait

He says a lot of things :/

Sonic could still bait a reaction and punish or something

Feel free to go to the Sonic board's video thread for a better idea

 

[Furbs]

LOL NEVERMIND!!

i was responding to a quote from like a month ago ><

 

[Deoxys]

55:45 MK. ask any1 whos actually played the matchup against a good sonic. stop basing the matchups off of lololsoniclolol and actually find ppl who have matchup experience. there are quite a few of them as ive played alot of MKs. and im sure any other good sonic has as well since uh...hes everywhere.

I'm someone who's played the matchup against a good Sonic, and I say it's 60/40 to 65/35 MK depending on the stagelist.

Too large.

60:40 to 65: 35 MK

More later, maybe

Sonic's Uair is not greater than MK's Fair.

He says a lot of things :/

Haha, too true.


-Affinity-, who's the best Snake in your area/the best Snake you've played?

 

[Affinity]

-Affinity-, who's the best Snake in your area/the best Snake you've played?

In my area? That'd be Karmacide; he's placed well at every OoS tourney he's been to and took 2nd in the big Brawl tournament hosted by Darkrain a few months ago. I've also played good OoS Snakes, including Ultimate Razer and T-Rex.

I've come to the conclusion that the match-up can become even under certain conditions, but outside of those conditions its still slightly in MK's favor.

My class is about to start, so I can't explain right now; I'll have my explanation up by the end of the day.

 

[Tero.]

No, no, no.

Sonic's ground game is based on bait and punishing. He can also go offensive. MK has better OoS options then Sonic and is a lot less punishable due to the speed of his attacks.

What are you trying to tell me?
Sonic's tilts are kinda fast and have kinda good range and i never said tilts are the only thing he can do. Also you don't have to tell me that MK is hard to punish, thx but being a MK main myself i allready know that.

His Bair is not that good. His Bair, Fair and Uair is disjointed. But MK's aerial would beat that. However Uair > MK's aerials. Up smash as invensy frames but lag makes it unpunishable. Fear Uptilt more.

I highly doubt that Sonics Uair > all of MK's aerials.
You should be more precise, MK isn't top tier for nothing.

I'm not sure...

Tell me please?

Sonic's speed allows him to run away for MT but also punish a retreating one. His HA can hit you from above the MT if done right. The spring and Dair the same. Dair > shuttle swoop IIRC. Fair > Mach drill thingy

No good MK uses side B anyway ...

Be defencive.

Too large.

60:40 to 65: 35 MK

More later, maybe

70:30 is probably too much, you're right on this one

srsly are you kidding me?
you contradict with the stuff i said just to speak about something completly different? ("Sonics tilts are ok" "no, sonic is all about bait & punish" <-- lolwut)

I've read quite a lot in the sonic boards and most stuff i wrote overlaps with everything i read there.

Thank you.

 

[Chis]

Sonic's Uair is not greater than MK's Fair.

Too lazy to type Dair :/

srsly are you kidding me?
you contradict with the stuff i said just to speak about something completly different? ("Sonics tilts are ok" "no, sonic is all about bait & punish" <-- lolwut)

Those statments are not simialir. Check again. It's talking about his faint abilty though SDC and ASCSC, and punishment though his speed and grabs.

I've read quite a lot in the sonic boards and most stuff i wrote overlaps with everything i read there.

Thank you.

Then read it agin. Your last post didn't even have that much content. You used spring > uair for crying out loud. Stop 'reading' and start watching video's in the video thread.

Sorry, but I actual know Sonic better than you do.

Thank you for reading.

 

[Tero.]

Too lazy to type Dair :/



Then read it agin. Your last post didn't even have that much content. You used spring > uair for crying out loud. Stop 'reading' and start watching video's in the video thread.

Sorry, but I actual know Sonic better than you do.

Thank you for reading.

I've watched enough videos , I've also read enough and played enough good people, thx.
You should follow the other english guys and come to the german tournament in april so we can have a few matches.

You can't learn everything from watching videos so a few matches would clear things up.
hope to play you sometime.

oh and i'm sure you know sonic better than me but those things come from other sonic players aswell and I'm also sure i have more smash experience than you so no need to tell me things about punishment with speed and grabs lol.

Edit: Also don't get cocky. join date or post counter or something lol, there are actually people who know ther stuff without posting much on smashboards.