Meta Knight's Revenge: The Official Match-Up Thread *Wario* -> GO

[OverLade]

I think Wario MK mostly comes down to the skill of the player. I think it's more important for the MK player to know the matchup than the Wario player personally because the less tight the MK's offense is, the more wario has to punish.

 

[Popertop]

I have more trouble fighting Meta with Wario than I do fighting Wario with Meta.

but that's just me, I'm pretty predictable sometimes with Wario...

 

[OverLade]

That would sorta be dependent on the Wario/MK player you're fighting against though.

Switching up Warios game is how you get MK to make a mistake. He thinks you're gonna dair, and you airdodge. He shuttle loops, you punish, etc....

 

[Popertop]

yeah I know

my trouble though is getting predictable with bites though

if I mix up my bites I do much better.

but I dunno, I find it easier to just outspace Wario with Meta by doing retreating falling Uairs and nado'ing when Wario is near the ground without his double jump.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Sorry for a second post but the Link boards really need some MK mains to help witht he match-up thread.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=231077&page=2

It would be appreciated.

 

[Shadow 111]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmsrrBDfTXc
what do you guys think of this? he says you can't get out... i'd like to see ppl try this on good players and see if they really can't escape.
if it's a real infinite and it can be easily pulled off that would definitely sway this matchup.

 

[OverLade]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmsrrBDfTXc
what do you guys think of this? he says you can't get out... i'd like to see ppl try this on good players and see if they really can't escape.
if it's a real infinite and it can be easily pulled off that would definitely sway this matchup.

Wow.

It actually looks pretty legit....

and gay.

 

[Popertop]

I dunno, looks like you might be able to Uair out

 

[OverLade]

Na footstool combos dont seem to work that way. And you can't Uair out of Sheiks Tilt lock, there's a really good sheik player in Tampa I play with on occasion, and there's no way out of it. You can't even smash DI out until like 40% (which happens to be when this gay combo starts).

 

[Popertop]

looks to be infinite then )

as if I didn't hate shiek enough

 

[Nefarious B]

Someone was saying this could be MK's first disadvantaged matchup, if they have a zero to death from landing one ftilt, which is what it seems to be, then that very well could be a slight advantage for Sheik, since I know she still has a decently hard time landing moves on meta.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

From what someone with frame data has stated,

MK is stunned for 36 frames, Shiek need 42 to pull this off.

Unconfirmed, since I'm unsure how to check frame data myself.

 

[Crizthakidd]

yea i read that too. 36 frames and mk can do his tech options in which he would get his invince frames.

but shiek can buffer stuff and those things were dependant on the hight of mk. the perfect hight in which shiek can footstool mk would bring the infinite closer. its all so frame tight right now.

either way no way would shiek couinter mk. first of all we already delt with her ftilit to 40, grab release to upsmash at 90. this would jsut be another ice climber sitation. plus SDI ASDI and other things could help you get out.

 

[OverLade]

yea i read that too. 36 frames and mk can do his tech options in which he would get his invince frames.

but shiek can buffer stuff and those things were dependant on the hight of mk. the perfect hight in which shiek can footstool mk would bring the infinite closer. its all so frame tight right now.

either way no way would shiek couinter mk. first of all we already delt with her ftilit to 40, grab release to upsmash at 90. this would jsut be another ice climber sitation. plus SDI ASDI and other things could help you get out.

If this is a true infinite/0-death, does anyone think it should be banned?

I don't personally, but just out of curiosity, because this is a pretty gay infinite to say the ledge. Still, stages with platforms will significantly mitigate a Sheik players ability to do this. And you should ban FD against Sheik to begin with......

 

[Nic64]

If this is a true infinite/0-death, does anyone think it should be banned?

no.

brawl is already a pretty gay game, this shouldn't really shock anyone.....

 

[M@v]

If this is a true infinite/0-death, does anyone think it should be banned?

just because mk finally gets gayed? Even though DDDs CG and other wall infinites have been gaying people for a year?

 

[Master Raven]

Some infinites are banned in tournies, especially on the EC, so if Shiek's CG is a true infinite that can't be avoided under any circumstances besides "not getting grabbed" (which is next to impossible at high level play), I wouldn't really be surprised if it were banned, even if MK got gayed.

Besides, even then I don't think this would suddenly sway the matchup in her favor. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Ganon have an infinite on Wario? If so then surely that doesn't mean the matchup is suddenly in Ganon's favor.

 

[Nic64]

grabbing wario with ganon is a lot harder than landing sheik's ftilt on MK. that being said this doesn't appear to be an actual infinite anyway...

 

[Gates]

If this is a true infinite/0-death, does anyone think it should be banned?

Absolutely not. Unlike Dedede's infinite, this actually requires a fair amount of timing and techskill, comparable to the Ice Climbers infinites. This should not be banned simply because any idiot can't just come in and use it to win the match.

 

[cutter]

Some infinites are banned in tournies, especially on the EC, so if Shiek's CG is a true infinite that can't be avoided under any circumstances besides "not getting grabbed" (which is next to impossible at high level play), I wouldn't really be surprised if it were banned, even if MK got gayed.

I never really understood the EC's logic of banning stuff that has proven not to break the game, but then again I wouldn't be surprised if they pre-emptively ban another infinite without even determing if it actually would warp the metagame.

I also believe that infinites should not be decided on being banned/not banned simply because of their execution difficulty. If it can be humanly mastered, someone will be able to master it. i.e., Ice Climbers infinites.

 

[OverLade]

Absolutely not. Unlike Dedede's infinite, this actually requires a fair amount of timing and techskill, comparable to the Ice Climbers infinites. This should not be banned simply because any idiot can't just come in and use it to win the match.

I'd disagree with that.

IC's can be seperated, have miniscule grab range, and is FAR harder to do this. After 5 minutes in training mode I could easily pull off this "infinite".

I'm not saying it should be banned because I think it'll just make fighting sheik more strategic/gay, but I think this is more comparable to D3's infinite than ICs.

 

[Gates]

IC's can be seperated,

Popo has a dthrow cg on his own.

have miniscule grab range

But they can camp well enough that they can force approaches and fast enough that they can punish poor spacing and land grabs off of it. I wouldn't say their grab range is minuscule when it's really only slightly less than MK and G&W's. Ganon has minuscule grab range. ICs do not.

and is FAR harder to do this. After 5 minutes in training mode I could easily pull off this "infinite".

I'm not saying it should be banned because I think it'll just make fighting sheik more strategic/gay, but I think this is more comparable to D3's infinite than ICs.

I haven't tested this Sheik trick, but if you say you could do this in 5 minutes I believe you. I guess I was exaggerating earlier when I compared the amount of techskill required to IC's infinites, but that doesn't mean it's as easy as Dedede's.

How many people do you know who have picked up Dedede for the sole purpose of beating DK?
How successful have they been at this?
How much practice did they put into it beforehand?
Do you really think Sheik's new infinite is as easy as that?

Also, can this infinite be performed on anyone BESIDES MK? If so, it might be slightly more dangerous to the metagame, but it's still not overly broken.
According to the official thread this combo doesn't work on:
Luigi
Link
Sheik
ROB
Fox (Though Sheik can just tilt lock him instead)
Ivysaur

And is very hard to do on:
Mario
Diddy Kong
Ganondorf
Zero Suit Samus
Ice Climbers (You need to get rid of Nana)
Captain Falcon
Snake

That's roughly a third of the cast who isn't affected by this, including several popular characters. Additionally, there are about 9 more characters who this is moderately difficult on, including Marth, Falco, Lucario, Peach, and King Dedede. That brings it up to roughly 57% of the cast being either immune to this technique or difficult to perform on. If a majority of the cast is not very threatened, why should it be banned?

 

[stingers]

Popo has what, a CG to 45% that can end in an fsmash? MK is clearly crippled in this matchup now. I hear that Falco has a CG with his Dthrow too, MK is getting ***** pretty hard these days o.o

 

[Gates]

Popo has what, a CG to 45% that can end in an fsmash? MK is clearly crippled in this matchup now. I hear that Falco has a CG with his Dthrow too, MK is getting ***** pretty hard these days o.o

If it ends in fsmash, it'll give him enough time to get nana back to him if she wasn't killed. If she was, the fsmash still adds like 13% (I have no idea what the % is, but it does add extra) to the cg. He can also end it in a fair spike which can potentially kill if the MK DIs it poorly or at the very least put Popo in a position where he can go back to camping like he does best.

But yeah, MK is terrible, why do you people play him?

 

[kirbywizard]

55-45 to 60-40 Metaknights favor. For the jigglypuff match up that is the almost decided ratio. But seems you people were to busy to care to add any information <_<


long live the power of the pink puff

 

[Gates]

55-45 to 60-40 Metaknights favor. For the jigglypuff match up that is the almost decided ratio. But seems you people were to busy to care to add any information <_<

I love it when people say things like this. It's not because nobody has matchup experience with obscure characters like Jiggs, it's because you're all a bunch of heartless *******s who are too busy listening to the sound of yourselves mashing the B button to care.

 

[Nic64]

If a majority of the cast is not very threatened, why should it be banned?

It doesn't even work on Meta Knight even though they claim that it does, so I have to question those other characters as well. Why ban it when it doesn't even actually work? the Bowser infinite had more credibility than this.

And even if it did work, you should be banning FD anyway.

 

[Staco]

The Shiek FTilt combo thing doesnt work.
Just bann FD, DI right and platforms will save your life.
And it seems to be escapeable.

 

[Popertop]

you can Smash DI out, it's not a big deal.

the frames aren't even right for it to work.

you can airdodge, Uair, jump

 

[Affinity]

NEXT MATCH-UP​

Week 4 - Wario

 

[Nic64]

Beating Wario seems to be largely an exercise in patience, need to space retreating aerials a lot on him. He can really put the hurt on you if he gets in but you should be able to give him a difficult time doing so. He is very heavy and shouldn't get gimped often either so you need to play safe and hit him a lot more than he hits you.

I think it's roughly 55:45 MK, a lot of it depends on who gets the lead first because camping is the name of the game and whoever approaches is at a disadvantage.

 

[ksizl4life]

Controller port advantage.

Tornado alot.

Camp fairs and retreat with them.

nair out of shield if you get dair'd.

up b out of shield if nair'd.

Grab release to nair or tornado.

Down grab to tornado.

up b gimp him off the bike if you read his patterns carefully.

ban brinstar.

counter fd, pkmn 1, rainbow, frigate, battlefield, yoshis.

55-45 mk

 

[Crizthakidd]

^^ ksizzle for life.

the match is going to be sooo boring. be careful of bike trixies, you can get hit with it and keep getting hit for massive % also if he does it high in the air and you try to up b himfrom below ull take dmg.

gimp him easily from the bottom if he tries to recovery lwo with bike. grab release trix and finally have patience


DONT GET FARTED ON

 

[Nic64]

If he air releases he's doing it wrong....

and yes, don't get farted on lol

 

[Corrupted]

Don't try to nair OoS, his dair has a rediculous frame advantage when autocanceled correctly. Up B/ reverse Up B OoS is better but still not guarenteed. Grounded Up B shuts down everything but will be punished hard on block. Punish mispaced ftilts with dash grab. Ftilt is pretty slow to start and end but beats your sh appoaches.

 

[Fear The Force]

Here are two contributions for the Metaknight vs. Snake matchup.

Beware when you're below the stage trying to recover or if you're planking because snake can drop a c4 in your vicinity and detonate it, causing you to be stage spiked, or sent to your death depending on your percentage.

-Force

You want to avoid neutrals like Final Destination and Smashville when you're playing vs. snake, and instead play on smaller neutrals, like Battlefield. Also, counterpick Frigate Orpheon or Delphino Plaza vs. Snake, as he has problems with both of these stages and metaknight owns on them.

-Force

Here is a contribution for the Metaknight vs. Falco matchup.

If you're being chaingrabbed by Falco, immediately start to upair with the C-stick. It's possible for you to get out (this needs to be verified, because if a falco doesn't mess up then, I'm sure you can't get out of it, but this has worked for me several times).

Here is a contribution for the Metaknight vs. Yoshi matchup.

If yoshi egg rolls at you, just shield grab him. His egg roll is a low priority attack and you can take advantage of this by doing some damage to him. If you're facing a very good yoshi, than this matchup just became 50:50, but this also depends on what stage you're on.

-Force

Here are several contributions for the Metaknight vs. Pit matchup.

Pit is going to try to spam you to hell, so it's important that you master powershielding, weaving, and using Mach Tornado at the right time. Even when Pit sends you flying off of the stage, he'll continue to spam you to death with arrows, trying to knock you out of the stage, so use your airdodges correctly.

-Force

When you're close to Pit, you outrange him, so use this to your advantage. F-tilts help a lot, as well as fair, dair, and to some extent bair.

-Force

Be cautious when you're trying to go for a gimp kill vs. Pit. He has a godly recovery, and good priority on attacks. Also, make sure you master DIing. It helps a lot during this matchup.

-Force

If you've used your shuttle loop and pit is edge-guarding you, DO NOT glide attack into him, as he can mirror shield your glide attack, turning your around like Mario's Cape, sending you to your death.

-Force

For the Wario matchup:

Also take into consideration as to when Wario has used farts because it's his strongest kill move by far, and it can kill you at crazy low percents.

-Force

Don't run straight into Wario because his chomp has amazing priority.

-Force

This is going to be an aerial fight. Experienced Warios are going to try to dair you or juggle you in the air to upair you. Make sure you're paying attention too because Wario CAN gimp kill you. I personally believe this to be a 50:50 matchup.

-Force

 

[DMG]

MK actually can force Wario to air release, but it is after very specific requirements have been met. In practicality, it's close to useless, but interesting to know.

Do you MK mains know what I am talking about?

Also, do not ban Brinstar. MK can play a lot gayer on there than Wario can. If you ever doubt MK's abilities there, pause for a second, Uair under the stage, regrab either edge.

 

[_Phloat_]

I like your ideas -Phloat

But, - Phloat

we are discussing Wario at this -Phloat

mom -Phloat

ent - Phloat.

 

[Crizthakidd]

i know what DMG is talking about lulululul

BUT a wario air camping you on brinstar will throw your game off =[

 

[noodles]

wut is he talking about crizthakid