Meta Knight Q&A Thread

[Exdeath]

if a character is hit by the second hit of mks Ftilt, does the character get RCO lag when they hit the ground?

Assuming that they have RCO and that they didn't hit the ground after Hit 1 and before Hit 2.

 

[Crackle]

Does anyone have an exhaustive list of grab options against Captain Falcon?
I've been having trouble with that matchup and no others.

 

[D Who?]

Wtf I wasn't even trying to come off as an *******?? That's just how I talk stop being so insensitive.. I'm just as confused as you are lmao.
I'm assuming you already saw GIMR's RCO lag video? If not, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWH-py8VENU&feature=related

MK can stall for 18 frames max between first and second hit, and 29 between second and third.. I would have to say you could probably input a fast aerial to hit MK if he stops after the 2nd hit, which also reduces any sort of RCO lag to 1/3 (using aerials before landing)

My apologies. It just seemed that way. And thank you for the extra information :D
Now I know.

 

[Kaffei]

Does anyone have an exhaustive list of grab options against Captain Falcon?
I've been having trouble with that matchup and no others.

Captain Falcon? Why? He shouldn't be difficult at all unless they are that much better than you as a player
Grab>Dthrow >Dash Attack> buffer turn around grab> B throw > up b
Grab>Dhtorw> uair > uair > uair > nair
grab> tornado > juggle
grab>dthrow> grab again > dthrow > tornado
grab>dthrow>grab again>dthrow> uair>uair> up b
grab>fthrow>fair
grab>dthrow>dash attack> nair>uair>tornado
grab>dthrow>dash attack>utilt>usmash
grab>dthrow>dash attack>utilt> uair>uair>up b or tornado
grab>dthrow>dash attack>utilt>grab again>dthrow>tornado

none of these are really guaranteed i just remember doing them vs different DI
idk there are a lot of things MK can do out of dthrow against captain falcon you just have to read their DI/react to it.

you can GSL/tornado his approaches and stuff and nado a lot of his options and edge guarding him dair his up b

 

[Crackle]

Thank You I will never lose to Captain Falcon again! Finally I am on my trek to be the best player in the world!

Edit: I can't stop his knee? What do you do!!!!!!

 

[ぱみゅ]

Play safer, don't let CF be near enough to Knee you.

 

[Crackle]

HE isn't near enough but he comes in from such a distance! I don't understand what you mean by safer!?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Don't use many attacks that allow your opponent to hit you after them (laggy).
Also, try to stay as far as possible from him, by attacking him with the very tip of your attacks (called spacing, when your attacks are much wider than theirs, you "out-space" them).
Combining those is basically what playing safe means.

Is harder to play safe against characters with great mobility like Wario, Pikachu or Falcon, but learning to do so brings you big rewards.

 

[Nic64]

wario's mobility is not threatening to MK. you can pretty much just buffer safe attacks like an idiot all day and he has a really hard time doing anything significant, his ground game is pretty poor and he has little range/disjoint...I believe DMG said it's actually mathematically impossible for him to do anything from the air, I know he has a really hard time with it anyway

 

[Kaffei]

mathematically.. meaning theory?

sry but it's better to think practically
humans make mistakes

 

[Nic64]

so you're saying that...in practice wario doesn't have great difficulty getting in on MK

...

 

[Kaffei]

............

way to turn my words completely around.
the match up is obviously in MK's favor.. but for you to say "you can pretty much just buffer safe attacks like an idiot all day" makes me think that what you say isn't very credible

 

[Nic64]

well what are you getting at then? are you just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing because OMG THIS TRUTH HAPPENS TO BE BACKED UP BY FRAME DATA, DISCUSSING DATA IS BAD? looking at move characteristics analytically *is* a very practical way of strategizing. maybe it doesn't mean wario literally can't ever touch you, but it does give weight to meta knight's ability to stay relatively safe, particularly against wario's more powerful attacks

I don't care if you think I'm less credible because I used a little hyperbole, I never claimed to be an authority on anything and it would be pretentious and ******** to do so considering pretty much every regular on this forum except orion is a random. my opinion is what it is and that's what I think about MK vs wario, if you disagree with it because I cited someone elses thoughts that were based on data that's your prerogative

 

[ぱみゅ]

Problem with frame data is that it is easily overrated.
People sometimes are like "ZOMG, mah jump is fraem 8 and ur attak is fraem 4, u raepz meeee!!!".

I mean, if frame perfection were THAT impacting, MK (and probably DDD) would've been banned a long, long time ago.
In reality, people screw things up and high-mobility characters punish them.

 

[Nic64]

wario is only highly mobile in the air where we have a huge range/disjoint advantage on him, I don't think it's nearly as hard as characters with good ground speed like fox who can dart in the moment you mess up, you have a lot more room for error with wario

75% of the smash community wants MK gone, it just won't happen for political reasons lmao

 

[Kaffei]

well what are you getting at then? are you just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing because OMG THIS TRUTH HAPPENS TO BE BACKED UP BY FRAME DATA, DISCUSSING DATA IS BAD? looking at move characteristics analytically *is* a very practical way of strategizing. maybe it doesn't mean wario literally can't ever touch you, but it does give weight to meta knight's ability to stay relatively safe, particularly against wario's more powerful attacks

Why would I disagree for the sake of disagreeing, that would be a complete waste of my time. If you even bothered to read any of my previous posts in this thread you would have realized that I look into frame data often.
It just seemed to me that you were the type of person who would think that (for example) Wario could never dair Meta Knight because up air is frame 2 and disjointed and wario's dair is frame 9 therefore Wario cannot get in (which is obviously false)

I don't care if you think I'm less credible because I used a little hyperbole, I never claimed to be an authority on anything and it would be pretentious and ******** to do so considering pretty much every regular on this forum except orion is a random. my opinion is what it is and that's what I think about MK vs wario, if you disagree with it because I cited someone elses thoughts that were based on data that's your prerogative

it's not even about the hyperbole -_-
just because he uses data doesn't mean he's always right.. i mean wtf he doesn't even place compared to other warios (neither do i but that's irrelevant)

 

[theunabletable]

wario is only highly mobile in the air where we have a huge range/disjoint advantage on him,

if Wario positions himself correctly, and he sees you fair, he can guaranteed air dodge in and grab.

imo wario vs MK is evenish. That's just my opinion and feel free to disagree, but I can't see what makes it sooo bad for Wario. Like maybe it's slight MK advantage, but really Wario has an option against pretty much everything of MKs, and lives really long, and kills pretty early.

 

[Pachinkosam]

gotta catch them all. so classic nice avatar theunabletable gary mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmnnmnmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmjmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ok am done PLEASE VISIT MY BLOG SMASHPROZ IT SO LONELY

 

[Orion*]

if Wario positions himself correctly, and he sees you fair, he can guaranteed air dodge in and grab.

imo wario vs MK is evenish. That's just my opinion and feel free to disagree, but I can't see what makes it sooo bad for Wario. Like maybe it's slight MK advantage, but really Wario has an option against pretty much everything of MKs, and lives really long, and kills pretty early.

it's like +1 or something imo. solid 60/40

Honestly, I think that wario has options as well, but many times it's very well... lack luster. Many times he has to work hard and only gets a some percent, or sometimes just a positional advantage because MK can really just outspeed wario with smart ground options and play safe.

(outside of weight and air having ******** air mobility) The problem is when wario does get a read it's pretty gay, even if it's a light one like nair->fthrow. 17% uairs, or even just a 12% fthrow can add up when you die at like 60 to fart... it's is kinda homo.

lets not even start on tire combos LMAO it's not worth it. I almost always just throw the tires off

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Given that match-up ratios are relative to each other, if Wario was a -1, characters like Snake and Diddy Kong who quite clearly do better against MK would be a +0. That obviously isn't the case, which puts Wario at -2 and Meta Knight's closest match-ups at -1.

 

[theunabletable]

@Orion: Yeah that's mostly all agreeable.

idk I'd say Wario when played well could have a really close matchup, but you're right that he has to work hard to keep a positional advantage so that he can bait all of MKs ****, which is probably really stressful, and mentally exhausting. In a practical environment it's probably a little worse than I feel it could be

@grim: I can't speak for anyone else, but I personally think Fox is his worst matchup (even, probably Fox's favor on neutrals, evenish because of gay CPs, just imo, though), and that Wario does better vs MK than Diddy.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I agree with Fox being really hard for MK, not sure about worst match-up, but definitely up there.

No one goes even with MK though, and no one beats him. I can see Fox effectively going even with him due to the limitations of human playing ability, but MK still has the best tools.

^All imo

 

[vato_break]

I think its slightly mks advanatage agianst fox, a lot of metaknights don't edgegaurd/fox correctly..if you ever see TKD fight foxes with his mk you'll know what i mean. Though this is just imo, personally i dislike fighting foxes as mk so i just go diddy lol.

I don't believe anyone in the game goes even with mk or beats him on neutrals except for himself.

 

[ぱみゅ]

The only part I disagree with table's and vato's posts there is the usage of the world "neutrals".
Fox might be even-ish on the most static/flat stages, just like Diddy. But nothing MK can't handle. There's nothing MK can't handle.

 

[Exdeath]

Given that match-up ratios are relative to each other

They really aren't. The ratios may not be absolutely accurate, but if ratios were relative then very few ratios would be the same because virtually no match-up is equally difficult (nor is the way in which they are difficult the same).

 

[Grim Tuesday]

They are roughly relative to each other. If they weren't relative to each other, the numbers would be essentially meaningless.

The only inherent value that +1 has is that it's higher than -4 to +0 and lower than +2 to +4.

 

[Exdeath]

They are roughly relative to each other. If they weren't relative to each other, the numbers would be essentially meaningless.

The only inherent value that +1 has is that it's higher than -4 to +0 and lower than +2 to +4.

They are essentially meaningless.

 

[B.A.M.]

IM trying to learn more pro tricks for my MK. I know one thats been used a ton recently is roll to grab or Dair camping with a couple jumps to ff AD to stuff. stutter step fsmashes have worked for me as well. Is there any tips anyone could give me?

 

[Player-4]

Honestly I say just watch vids of top MKs and pick up their good tricks, smart play and spacing will really be your best asset though, not ATs.

Play to not get hit.

 

[vato_break]

just spam nado smartly

 

[theunabletable]

IM trying to learn more pro tricks for my MK. I know one thats been used a ton recently is roll to grab or Dair camping with a couple jumps to ff AD to stuff. stutter step fsmashes have worked for me as well. Is there any tips anyone could give me?

Yeah I really like dair camping at a position where I can move to the ground faster than reaction.

Although one thing to be aware of, is that ff AD to stuff gives people a visual cue so they're able to punish as soon as their reaction time allows after seeing the air dodge start. Whereas not airdodging and simply fastfalling makes your animation unchanging until you hit the ground, their first visual cue, where they can be CERTAIN that you're landing is the actual landing, any time before that you can dair again (which they're probably expecting to some extent).

Like airdodging and then doing something can be nice for buffering (it's good for guaranteed punishes), but you have to weigh the pros and cons of buffering, and having your attack come out as fast as possible, but also having the other person's reaction to your attack be essentially faster by an amount of roughly every frame that you're in your airdodge. Like MK's Ftilt is faster than reaction, but airdodge>Ftilt isn't, and if they're looking for an airdodge, and if you're in that position there's a good chance they are, they might be able to, essentially, stop your attempted Ftilt on reaction. It's kinda like the difference between being on the ledge, and doing a ledge hop > air dodge, and landing on the ground around the time your air dodge invincibility ends, and dropping low, and doing a double jump so that you land on the stage at the lowest point you can.

Just a small little idea that no one seems to talk about

 

[B.A.M.]

ohh table you so goofy. find me some pro tricks! GO! Everyone state their favorite MK tricks!

 

[Kaffei]

No thx .

 

[Supreme Dirt]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVvMlqeIQa4

At around 7:08 Seagull does a sliding FSmash. I'm wondering how. The only thing I can think of is a true pivot, but afaik you stop dead when you do that.

 

[Kaffei]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVvMlqeIQa4

At around 7:08 Seagull does a sliding FSmash. I'm wondering how. The only thing I can think of is a true pivot, but afaik you stop dead when you do that.

Just dash then hit the control stick the other direction. as u start to turn, hit the c stick in the direction you were initially dashing.
u can also do it with dsmash. i think dtilt too.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Is it just MK that can do it?

Actually forget that, I'll just check.

Wait so it is just a true pivot.

Hmmm... I guess not all characters stop when they do it.

 

[Exdeath]

Is it just MK that can do it?

Actually forget that, I'll just check.

Wait so it is just a true pivot.

Hmmm... I guess not all characters stop when they do it.

The way that the momentum works is somewhat unique, however every member of the cast can do it.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

None of the characters I play have that sliding momentum, damn.

Thanks anyways.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Anyone have any tips against pit? I actually have never played the matchup before, and I have no idea what to watch for or how to play it, and I'm going to be facing a very, very good Pit in pools at the smashfest this weekend.

 

[Kaffei]

idk that MU either lmao

just be careful when you're recovering cus his mirror shield can gimp you... plzzz dont get gimped
ftilt out ranges everything he has on ground
dair camping doesnt really work
power shield his arrows

idk GL