Meta Knight Officially Banned!

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Doc King, do you know what the word "Viable" means?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Doc King, do you know what the word "Viable" means?

I'd really like to know the answer to this as well.

 

[DMG]

Yoshi is viable, look at Poltergust

 

[Doc King]

Doc King, do you know what the word "Viable" means?

Yes.

I'd really like to know the answer to this as well.

Look it up in the dictionary.

Yoshi is viable, look at Poltergust

Than that means that everyone is viable.

 

[da K.I.D.]

*Translation for the above post.

No, I do not, but Im smart enough to recognise how much of a fool I will look like, should I actually acknowledge that fact. Therefore Im going to cover myself by making the wittiest retort I can muster.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Doc King, viable just means that it "works successfully" or "feasible".

If MK was the only viable character, he would be the only character who wins money.

 

[Ghostbone]

Ganon wins money

Doesn't make him viable.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I don't even know why I said money, I meant tournaments.

 

[M@v]

Yoshi is viable, look at Poltergust

All I see when I look at Poltergust nowadays is MvC3

 

[Ghostbone]

I don't even know why I said money, I meant tournaments.

Well with MK legal he wins like 2/3 of 40+ entrant tournaments, so basically he's the only viable character using that data.

Which means I agree with Doc King >.>

Edit: MK won 73% (19/26) of the tournaments linked in this post, which all had 45 or more entrants and took place in 2011. (so mostly high level/top level play)
So yea, you could claim that maybe Snake and Diddy, possibly Falco if he's lucky, are barely viable...but definitely not anyone past that, much less someone like Peach O.o.

 

[John12346]

In addition to all of the tournaments linked in that post, these tournaments have occurred in 2011 and have had at least 45 entrants:

Spoiler

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=309339
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=310616
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=311446
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=312375
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=312909
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=313119
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=313888
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=314162
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=314062
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=314538

Of which 4 out of 10 were won by MK, so... in total, 23/36; 63.89% of all 45+ Entrant Tournaments have been won by MK.

 

[Thino]

Well with MK legal he wins like 2/3 of 40+ entrant tournaments, so basically he's the only viable character using that data.

Which means I agree with Doc King >.>

Edit: MK won 73% (19/26) of the tournaments linked in this post, which all had 45 or more entrants and took place in 2011. (so mostly high level/top level play)
So yea, you could claim that maybe Snake and Diddy, possibly Falco if he's lucky, are barely viable...but definitely not anyone past that, much less someone like Peach O.o.

In addition to all of the tournaments linked in that post, these tournaments have occurred in 2011 and have had at least 45 entrants:

Spoiler

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=309339
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=310616
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=311446
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=312375
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=312909
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=313119
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=313888
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=314162
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=314062
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=314538

Of which 4 out of 10 were won by MK, so... in total, 23/36; 63.89% of all 45+ Entrant Tournaments have been won by MK.

which means about 36.11% of 45+ entrants tournaments are not won by MK, therefore he's not the only viable character.

which goes against what Doc King said.

or am I missing something?

I still believe MK was much more a matter of preference like Hippieslayer mentioned rather than data that cannot be really counted as proper evidence since, like we already mentioned a few pages before, it is completely arbitrary.

you guys, the "75%", think 63% of 45+ entrants tournaments being won by one character means other characters are barely or not viable.

I think 100% of tournament should be won by a character before reaching that conclusion.

Thats why I REALLY think its more a matter of opinion than data.

 

[Zankoku]

I think 94% is a reasonable number to stop at before definitively banning. However, even 50%+ for a single character indicates an issue. Whether that issue is a character being too good or just too many people using that character is, unfortunately, not something that can be determined off of character popularity alone.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

And even then, we are ignoring all of the Japanese and European tournaments that MK doesn't win, unless viability only includes America? xD

 

[Zankoku]

America is the only viable country in the world.

 

[Life]

Japan's metagame is too different due to stages, rules, cultures, Beatmania, what have you. You can probably get away with lumping Europe in tho.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

There matagame is still way more advanced than ours. I'm pretty sure no one expected Brood to take out M2K, especially when you watch the first game of the set. Rich Brown was talking about that he studied that set and that's what helped him take out M2K at MLG.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Characters like Snake and Diddy were alright, but they weren't good enough to beat mk.

Get the **** out doc.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Japan's metagame is too different due to stages, rules, cultures, Beatmania, what have you. You can probably get away with lumping Europe in tho.

We're still playing Smash Bros. Brawl either way. Nietono isn't going to do badly at Apex because he isn't used to Pokemon Stadium or some ****; its fair to lump Europe/America/Japan in the same category.

 

[Zankoku]

There matagame is still way more advanced than ours. I'm pretty sure no one expected Brood to take out M2K, especially when you watch the first game of the set. Rich Brown was talking about that he studied that set and that's what helped him take out M2K at MLG.

Brood then proceeded to be given the **** by Larry and was unable to put up a similarly top-two result at a local tournament a week later in the same region. Brood may very well have been a legendary status Olimar, but it's a pretty ridiculous stretch to claim from a single tournament performance that Japan's metagame is "way more advanced than ours".

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Falco/Olimar is -2....

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Brood then proceeded to be given the **** by Larry and was unable to put up a similarly top-two result at a local tournament a week later in the same region. Brood may very well have been a legendary status Olimar, but it's a pretty ridiculous stretch to claim from a single tournament performance that Japan's metagame is "way more advanced than ours".

Yeah, but Brood isn't even their best player and he destroyed two of our best.

 

[Life]

Matchup knowledge. A Jigglypuff whose name escapes me took a game off M2K not long ago.

We can has new topic now?

 

[Ghostbone]

which means about 36.11% of 45+ entrants tournaments are not won by MK, therefore he's not the only viable character.

which goes against what Doc King said.

or am I missing something?

Because that's shared among every other character (mostly Snake and Diddy), so MK is winning significantly more than them, and is really the only viable character.

I think 100% of tournament should be won by a character before reaching that conclusion.

Thats why I REALLY think its more a matter of opinion than data.

So if a character wins a tournament that means they're viable? Is Ganon viable according to you?

 

[Judo777]

which means about 36.11% of 45+ entrants tournaments are not won by MK, therefore he's not the only viable character.

which goes against what Doc King said.

or am I missing something?

I still believe MK was much more a matter of preference like Hippieslayer mentioned rather than data that cannot be really counted as proper evidence since, like we already mentioned a few pages before, it is completely arbitrary.

you guys, the "75%", think 63% of 45+ entrants tournaments being won by one character means other characters are barely or not viable.

I think 100% of tournament should be won by a character before reaching that conclusion.

Thats why I REALLY think its more a matter of opinion than data.

Lol 100%? Lol that will never happen. Tournaments are far too complex for something so simple. All it takes is 1 tournament with 45 people to have a player that usually gets second or third with a non-best character to either get lucky, or the best person who always wins gets sick, or the tournament is filled with a bunch of scrubs and 1 good player to mess up that number.

What if, at that given tournament no one wants to pick the best character? I could go to an ST tournament, and then complain and annoy the hell at of people until they don't pick akuma, and then win. Or maybe I tell people that if they beat me with anyone except akuma I will personally give them $100. There is so much crap that can happen in a tournament setting that would skew those numbers.

Akuma did not have a 100% ST win record lol

 

[da K.I.D.]

There matagame is still way more advanced than ours. I'm pretty sure no one expected Brood to take out M2K, especially when you watch the first game of the set. Rich Brown was talking about that he studied that set and that's what helped him take out M2K at MLG.

I was going to say something to this but ankoku pretty much handled it for me.

Yeah, but Brood isn't even their best player and he destroyed two of our best.

You know that tournament that ankoku was talking about? Brood also lost to Dabuz at that tournament. What do you have to say to that? Because no matter what conclusion you come to, it will contradict your original argument.

We're still playing Smash Bros. Brawl either way. Nietono isn't going to do badly at Apex because he isn't used to Pokemon Stadium or some ****; its fair to lump Europe/America/Japan in the same category.

1. Youre over simplifying it.
2. It doesnt work that way.

Matchup knowledge. A Jigglypuff whose name escapes me took a game off M2K not long ago.

We can has new topic now?

Because that's shared among every other character (mostly Snake and Diddy), so MK is winning significantly more than them, and is really the only viable character.



So if a character wins a tournament that means they're viable? Is Ganon viable according to you?

 

[Thino]

Lol 100%? Lol that will never happen. Tournaments are far too complex for something so simple. All it takes is 1 tournament with 45 people to have a player that usually gets second or third with a non-best character to either get lucky, or the best person who always wins gets sick, or the tournament is filled with a bunch of scrubs and 1 good player to mess up that number.

What if, at that given tournament no one wants to pick the best character? I could go to an ST tournament, and then complain and annoy the hell at of people until they don't pick akuma, and then win. Or maybe I tell people that if they beat me with anyone except akuma I will personally give them $100. There is so much crap that can happen in a tournament setting that would skew those numbers.

Akuma did not have a 100% ST win record lol

of course it will never happen.

I'm glad you provide even better points than me to prove how many factors affect said data about tournaments.

This is exactly why I think data is irrelevant, and that it depended more on opinions than some people here are trying to make it look like.

 

[Damittom]

of course it will never happen.

I'm glad you provide even better points than me to prove how many factors affect said data about tournaments.

This is exactly why I think data is irrelevant, and that it depended more on opinions than some people here are trying to make it look like.

Woah Data is not irrelevant. In an situation like this data gives us insight into a character and his trends. Although at one time I was an MK main I agree with the statement that there is sufficient data that can prove that MK was superior to the the rest of the cast.

The problem with banning a character is there is no set bar that makes a character bannable. That is the opinion of those instating the ban. Therefore if we set the ban bar at lets say a character wins 50-60% of Tourneys over a specific period then they will be banned we need to stick with this for future issues.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

You know that tournament that ankoku was talking about? Brood also lost to Dabuz at that tournament. What do you have to say to that? Because no matter what conclusion you come to, it will contradict your original argument

How? I already said that Brood isn't even the best player Japan has. Did you even read what you were quoting?

@InferiorityComplex, Who cares about single match. Stuff like that happens all the time. Brood took a whole set in stages that he doesn't even play

 

[da K.I.D.]

Who cares how good he is, youre making the claim that Japan > America based on one guy that beat m2k and ally and than lost to dehf and dabuz.

And then theres the whole fact that the best player that DID come over at the time, Lost to lee martin, who i believe (someone verify this) was half way retired at the time.

 

[Thino]

Woah Data is not irrelevant. In an situation like this data gives us insight into a character and his trends. Although at one time I was an MK main I agree with the statement that there is sufficient data that can prove that MK was superior to the the rest of the cast.

The problem with banning a character is there is no set bar that makes a character bannable. That is the opinion of those instating the ban. Therefore if we set the ban bar at lets say a character wins 50-60% of Tourneys over a specific period then they will be banned we need to stick with this for future issues.

Dont be so shocked, it's not that obvious looking at how the situation is.

You got a ban that passed because the majority of URC members voted for it, plus according to polls 75% of the community was for this ban.


It doesn't make sense to me because IMO for the data to be actually relevant in the topic of the ban, limits like these had to be set beforehand, to be able to say "when the game was released, we decided that if a character wins more than 65% of the tournament he would be banned, well look at this data, MK goes past the limit we have set"

NOT "MK is broken, look at this data full of facts that cannot be denied! They justify his ban because those FACTS go past values that we decided ONLY NOW should be considered as defining that a character is broken in Brawl's context"

That is pure fallacy, I'd rather hear that MK got banned because of vote/polls than that, that's a much better justification because attendance to tournaments depends on this.

SO yes I do agree that data is useful to see trends, but only for that, because honestly, I'm not sure that the same data would be used if another character turned out to be broken in the future installments of Smash.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Who cares how good he is, youre making the claim that Japan > America based on one guy that beat m2k and ally and than lost to dehf and dabuz.

And then theres the whole fact that the best player that DID come over at the time, Lost to lee martin, who i believe (someone verify this) was half way retired at the time.

Everyone cares how good he is. He's not even Japan's best player and he is beating America's best. Let's just see what happens now that we have one of japan's best players (Nietono) attending


I want to see the look in every pro-bans' face when MK once again doesn't get first at an Apex tournament.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Doesn't bother me, I'd support MK's ban even if he never won a single tournament ever this year.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Why? Because of Planking?

 

[da K.I.D.]

Everyone cares how good he is. He's not even Japan's best player and he is beating America's best. Let's just see what happens now that we have one of japan's best players (Nietono) attending


I want to see the look in every pro-bans' face when MK once again doesn't get first at an Apex tournament.

sigh... this is why everyone hates you.

You didnt actually counter or refute any of my points. All you did was restate your original statement

Let me make this slow and easy for you.

Who cares how good he is, youre making the claim that Japan > America based on one guy that beat m2k and ally and than lost to dehf and dabuz.

You keep spouting off about how amazing it is that brood beat m2k and ally, while conviniently avoiding the fact that he lost to two players who werent regarded as being as good as those two (even though dehf beat ally that tourney too.

the person who was japans best at the time (RAIN) lost to 2 players were not Americas best. By that logic I could easily say that America is lightyears ahead of Japans meta because their best player came over here and didnt even get top 5. Losing to lee M (who also beat brood) and ally.

brood also lost not even a week later to dabuz, which means america has the better olimars right?

I mean, by this logic I could just say that lee martin is better than the entire nation of japan lol.

This is why brood beating m2k and ally has little significance, whether hes the best player or not. because even though he beat the 2 of them, he also lost to To MORE people of the same skill level or lower. And the person who was the best at the time lost to the same people (Lee in bracket and DEHF in pools.

and just in case you wanted to check, heres my source data
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=10928091#post10928091

 

[Tommy_G]

Why? Because of Planking?

Because why not.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yes, because of planking.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Joyf8KKdg4

We never even got a chance to use this in tournament. It's funny how they banned MK only after they found a way combat Planking.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I will support MK's legality if someone shows me why his planking isn't broken.

The technique in that video was known for at least a year before said video was posted, and its glaring problem is that the risk:reward of doing it is still heaps in MK's favour.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I will support MK's legality if someone shows me why his planking isn't broken.

The technique in that video was known for at least a year before said video was posted, and its glaring problem is that the risk:reward of doing it is still heaps in MK's favour.

It stops perfect planking which was the problem. Everything else that MK can do is beatable. It's better than anyone else's planking game, but still beatable