Meru.
I like spicy food
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2008
- Messages
- 3,835
- Location
- The Netherlands, sometimes Japan
- NNID
- Merudi
- 3DS FC
- 0963-1622-2801
Cornflakes with milk...
Lots of lots of milk...
Lots of lots of milk...
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Meta Knight Officially Banned!
- Thread starter AlphaZealot
- Start date
- Status
Cut out the spamming, please.
Brawlin
Smash Journeyman
Lmao holyv. On topic, is it possible that MK will be relegalized? Or, is it still to early to tell due to the fact that tournaments that run unity won't be MK banned until after Apex?
John12346
Smash Master
It's definitely possible to re-legalize MK.
Just as one example, if you've been keeping track of my data thread, at the start of 2012, I will be shifting my focus of tournament collection to prioritize MK Banned Tournaments only; giving MK Legals a lot less attention for my project. If it turns out that one character dominates as much as MK was, it's probably make sense to attempt to re-legalize MK in that situation. I'd likely go anti-ban, and I'd probably quit the game after I got MK relegalized. Kind of a bittersweet effort, but it'd be pretty obvious what I'd have to do in that position.
As a side note: I would not pull such an action in the scenario that pre-MK ban top players continue to place well in a post-MK ban metagame. That's not a good enough reason to become anti-ban, considering a predominant issue with MK is character imbalance, not player imbalance.
Or should we ban Isai from Smash 64?
Just as one example, if you've been keeping track of my data thread, at the start of 2012, I will be shifting my focus of tournament collection to prioritize MK Banned Tournaments only; giving MK Legals a lot less attention for my project. If it turns out that one character dominates as much as MK was, it's probably make sense to attempt to re-legalize MK in that situation. I'd likely go anti-ban, and I'd probably quit the game after I got MK relegalized. Kind of a bittersweet effort, but it'd be pretty obvious what I'd have to do in that position.
As a side note: I would not pull such an action in the scenario that pre-MK ban top players continue to place well in a post-MK ban metagame. That's not a good enough reason to become anti-ban, considering a predominant issue with MK is character imbalance, not player imbalance.
Or should we ban Isai from Smash 64?
Why would I close the Meta Knight boards? Meta Knight is only banned in the URC, which is only widely used in North American tournaments.
NinjaFoxX
Banned via Warnings
because theres 10 locked topics in a row?
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Dre nailed it a few pages ago:
the very large group of players who want MK banned don't owe the minority anything. Done. Why is this thread still open?
the very large group of players who want MK banned don't owe the minority anything. Done. Why is this thread still open?
- Joined
- Aug 13, 2001
- Messages
- 34,481
- Location
- Cull Hazard
- NNID
- Irene4
- 3DS FC
- 1203-9265-8784
- Switch FC
- SW-7567-8572-3791
I look at this thread in this way: It helps get all those whiners/happy-goers to go here instead of posting topics about his ban. I'm sure this thread'll be locked once the fire dies down.
This is solely my theory, but from experience as a mod on other boards, you gotta direct all the problems to one area to help keep it contained.
If this was locked, there'd be tons of topics whining or praising. They'd get locked in an instant. I'd say this is an attempt to keep it contained. Mods are free to correct me on this, though.
KirbyandSonicrock14
Smash Ace
Sigh...let's hope next smash game is a mistake so we can get back to EVO.
If the next smash game is a complete mistake, there will be no reason to keep competitive smash with the current version of it, and attention will be able to shift back to melee.
Ussi
Smash Legend
More like they'll all go play a different fighting game, not play a competitive fighter, or go back to melee.
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 19,345
I'd rather find some way of keeping an already existing community going. I think part of the success of smashboards in the first place is nintendo being able to sell millions of copies of melee.
There are dozens and dozens of fighters out there. Ones that are being replaced by newer releases or some designed specifically for competition, and others are only around for profits or fan work.
However, there is usually not much incentive to be good at a fighter without someone to play against or competition. And if you cannot find many people who know about the game, it is incredibly hard to find anyone who actually wants to take the game to a competitive level and devote hours to it. After selling millions of copies of melee and people who were influenced by it even though not owning it creates many more opportunities for competition than some no-name fighter only a few hundred people know about.
There are dozens and dozens of fighters out there. Ones that are being replaced by newer releases or some designed specifically for competition, and others are only around for profits or fan work.
However, there is usually not much incentive to be good at a fighter without someone to play against or competition. And if you cannot find many people who know about the game, it is incredibly hard to find anyone who actually wants to take the game to a competitive level and devote hours to it. After selling millions of copies of melee and people who were influenced by it even though not owning it creates many more opportunities for competition than some no-name fighter only a few hundred people know about.
Johnknight1
Upward and Forward, Positive and Persistent
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2007
- Messages
- 18,979
- NNID
- Johnknight1
- 3DS FC
- 3540-0575-1486
Well the minority deserves the right to have their voice heard, and voice their opinions. The problem isn't the ban, it is the fact that there have been a level of distrust in the community, and a tyrant URC.
The URC was formed by some questionable TOs, to override the Brawl Back Room, which has less power. New rules over the past 2 years have been made to make Meta Knight camp more and to make him stronger so he could be banned. There have been about a dozen "Final Polls" and "Final Brawl Backroom Votes" on the subject of banning Meta Knight. Also, the URC has been controlling of tournament rules, and refusing to acknowledge non-URC tournaments. To make it worse, nearly all if not all of the URC members even use Meta Knight.
It reminds me of the mid 1930's when Nazi Germany DEMANDED a small chunk of land from a country (I think it was Austria; I am not 100% sure on which country it was). All the powers of Europe granted Germany that chunk of land to "keep the peace"-without said countries position. You know why Germany wanted that land=??? Because that was where the country had built a defense for several years from Germany. Said country now had no defense of their nation from Germany. Germany now had this strip of land they wanted. And what did Nazi Germany do next=??? Invade the rest of the country, sack it, loot it, and killed off or enslaved minority after minority.
Granted, no one is dying, but you get my point. If you want to debate something that would force the minority to change everything, INVOLVE THEM in it. If you don't, you're running a dictatorship.
Really after so many "Final Polls" and "Final Discussions" on the Meta Knight ban, you think they would owe the Meta Knight mains more of a explanation and heads up with the ban, or perhaps more discussion with them.
On top of that, the multiple polls and gradual Meta Knight ban shows that the URC doesn't have much faith in the competitive Brawl. All the dumb rules, the slow avalanche of the ban, etc... it has really lead to a decline in the tournament scene.
Which is why now at major national tournament events Melee is trumping Brawl, Brawl scenes in various states or areas have thinned out, and people who dumped Melee to play Brawl are now going back to Brawl. Unless you're confident a game is competitive, and you act like it's competitive, people are going to continually doubt it, and the game's competitive leadership.
I think Brawl is competitive, but c'mon- let us let it be competitive. And yes, I am for a temporary ban, but not a universal ban. I want to see what the community and tournament scene looks like without Meta Knight. Then I will make my decision as to whether I feel Meta Knight deserves to be banned more often or not. The competitive scene should have taken a gradual trial and error approach to this (and other rules), instead of just quickly driving around the corner without knowing which way the road turns.
Is that not what this is? A ban "for now"? Have there not been numerous times that they've said that there's a chance that they'll repeal the ban after seeing how the competitive community does without it?
Secondly, do you really think that the minority has had absolutely no influence in this decision? Do you think the URC just lolled around in their private forums completely ignoring what the anti-ban people had to say about the situation?
That is not the case. The case is, the anti-ban side has stated their argument for keeping MK unbanned for quite a long time. And some 75.91% of the community, almost the entire URC, and even recently the BBR have recognized that the arguments for BANNING MK outweigh the arguments for keeping him unbanned. This isn't some "quickly driving around the corner" decision that was made out of nowhere.
The URC not sticky-ing tournaments that don't follow their rules reminds you of the rise of nazi germany in the 1930's? Seriously? That's the best kind of comparison you could think of?
There's this funny system in which the majority opinion decides when something changes, and the minority opinion can't really do anything about it. It's called "democracy". Heard of it? Forgot how much of a dictatorship those kinds of governments can be.
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2009
- Messages
- 11,841
A temporary ban would be a universal ban, just ... temporary.
Some of you guys need to get your story straight.
Sephy95
Smash Lord
Never thought I'd live to see the day......now its officially legit.
John12346
Smash Master
I kinda wish the URC would give a full reasoning behind the ban too... I'm not casting doubt on the legitimacy of their decision, but it'd definitely ease a lot of people's concerns if everyone just knew what was up, for sure.
I mean... it's pretty obvious there's a bit of unrest among the ranks of the general public over this, so...
I mean... it's pretty obvious there's a bit of unrest among the ranks of the general public over this, so...
KirbyandSonicrock14
Smash Ace
You do know Melee was a mistake, right? It wasn't suppose to be serious. In other words Melee was one huge mistake.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
Penicillin and the slinky were also mistakes. And look at how greatly those turned out. =)
Melee wasn't really a mistake....Sakurai did design it that way, though we're lucky that it wasn't massively unbalanced.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
What planet are you from?
It was really unbalanced, probably moreso than Brawl to be honest. Neither are winning balance awards or anything but Melee's low tier is much, much worse than Brawl's.
But....it wasn't massively unbalanced....it was unbalanced overall sure, but the balance between the top 7 is pretty good.What planet are you from?
It was really unbalanced, probably moreso than Brawl to be honest. Neither are winning balance awards or anything but Melee's low tier is much, much worse than Brawl's.
Brawl without MK is way more balanced than Melee, but with MK......I doubt it.
Bones0
Smash Legend
It's easy to think Melee was just a fluke or accident of a game, but anyone who read that infamous blog post by Sakurai should know that it wasn't. Some elements of Melee certainly turned out to be flukes that added to competitiveness (small stuff like jump cancelling, jab resetting), but the majority of the game is just designed with great depth. The system for DI, teching, hitstun balance, momentum, etc. are all on point. Hit stun in particular sticks out to me because 64 is all about huge hitstun where large 0-death combos are plentiful, and Brawl is on the other end of the spectrum with combos being virtually nonexistent. Melee's hitstun is balanced almost perfectly so that you can combo the crap out of people, but each hit is BARELY linked with others. Anyone who's gotten combo'd in Melee can tell you that they are constantly a split second from being able to jump out of combos. That isn't an accident.
As far as balance goes, that was certainly less in control of the developers, but I still do not think it was by any means a mistake. Just look at the PAL version. It's clear they knew what they were doing by what they nerfed. Fox's usmash, Sheik's dthrow, Marth's dair, and Falco's dair all got nerfed. Wow, 4 of the very top characters; coincidence? Doubt it. They also buffed some of the low tiers. I am not as familiar with those changes, but I at least know that Yoshi got heavier with a stronger fsmash, and Kirby got a faster dash speed.
As far as balance goes, that was certainly less in control of the developers, but I still do not think it was by any means a mistake. Just look at the PAL version. It's clear they knew what they were doing by what they nerfed. Fox's usmash, Sheik's dthrow, Marth's dair, and Falco's dair all got nerfed. Wow, 4 of the very top characters; coincidence? Doubt it. They also buffed some of the low tiers. I am not as familiar with those changes, but I at least know that Yoshi got heavier with a stronger fsmash, and Kirby got a faster dash speed.
Archangel
Smash Hero
The Balance of melee is distorted huh? have you not seen tournament results the past 2 1/2 years?What planet are you from?
It was really unbalanced, probably moreso than Brawl to be honest. Neither are winning balance awards or anything but Melee's low tier is much, much worse than Brawl's.
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
To be fair, I think SMP is talking about the fact that the likes of Pichu, Roy, Kirby, and Bowser are pathetically weak in comparison to the rest of the characters in the game. That much is true, at least.
Hylian Tier in Brawl fares better, amirite?
Smooth Criminal
Bones0
Smash Legend
Brawl low tiers only do better because the top tiers are also horrible. They can't combo, tech chase, or gimp, so obviously they will seem like they are doing better, but overall, Brawl matches are just closer in general. In Melee, even a Bowser can **** up a Falco if they are the better player, but it takes a much larger skill disparity for anyone to be winning by a large amount in Brawl.
Archangel
Smash Hero
Those characters admittedly do suck but have their moments. Hack for example beat Ice in tournament with Kirby.(ice is pretty much the best marth next to m2k).
Mario/Doc's have been getting top 5. Peach won a national..things are still changing in melee's community. Characters below top 7 are actually on the verge of overcoming years of mid/low tier oppression.
Pachinkosam
I have no friends, Im dead inside
yup u getting the hang of it
There is no character in Brawl that must hurt itself in order to use viable attacks, so of course Melee will have at least 1 character who is overall more terrible when related to the cast than Brawl.
Archangel
Smash Hero
Pichu is 1 character though. Melee overall has less characters and is more diverse overall. That's just how it is.
Fox has been rated #1 for a long time now and his greatness is challenged by at least 15 characters as long as the players are good.
being a good player...I won't say it doesn't matter in brawl because it does but the character are far more important it seems..hence 1 being banned.
KirbyandSonicrock14
Smash Ace
That works. I really want to see smash at EVO.
Black Mantis
Smash Hero
Llumys
Smash Champion
Is anyone trying to say that Melee's less balanced than Brawl?
> Melee doesn't have a single character without a bad match-up.
> Melee doesn't have a single character without a bad match-up.
UberMario
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2009
- Messages
- 3,312
SSBMelee Kirby was practically useless, even compared to Pichu.
As a whole, Melee and Brawl were terribly balanced, however, Melee had more viable characters AND more characters that could do virtually nothing.
SSB64's balance was the closest by far.
- Status