Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]

[Strong Badam]

Whiscash learns Dragon Dance now.

too bad his base attack/speed are mediocre. :/ maybe his OK spdef/def and pretty good HP can give him enough time to get 2 DD's in. anticipation could help scout pokemon who always have a mystery as to what moveset they're running.
headsmash aggron is where it's at

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm largely wondering if he'll break out of NU. Realistically he won't, but it would be funny to see him succeed.

 

[TheManaLord]

guys did you ****ing forget how ****ing terrible zeldas grab is its ****ing terrible falco will destroy her with shield pressure not even trying too hard . zelda has some TRICKS but falco has the advantage by a lot its like 7-3

 

[KirbyKaze]

Zelda can usmash oos on Falco aerial-shine pillar. Her usmash has a 5 frame startup and JC only adds 1 frame so it's like a 6 frame oos move.

If Falco holds down or down+side this fails.

 

[pockyD]

anticipation won't catch hp grass

 

[joeplicate]

Zelda can usmash oos on Falco aerial-shine pillar. Her usmash has a 5 frame startup and JC only adds 1 frame so it's like a 6 frame oos move.

If Falco holds down or down+side this fails.

theorycrafting at its finest
LOL

 

[KirbyKaze]

I enjoy walking in squares, not circles.

I'm not sure what to think of Zelda against Falco pressure. It seems reasonable enough sometimes for Zelda to not care because one of her basics is lightshield --> kick combo but then Falco locks people in stun for a while so if he just jumps forward the added stun might make it hard to shake him easily or at all. Trumping multishine is kind of cool, I guess.

Then she has funny stuff like usmash oos but those are diable and regularly fail even when they're not consciously trying to di it. Figures that the di that trumps usmash oos should also be one of the staple inputs in doing the pillar (down).

I really never know what to think of Zelda ever, so I pretend she doesn't exist and go about needle camping with Sheik ^.^

 

[phish-it]

DK vs Falco = DK vs Fox?


Hahaha, that made me laugh.

 

[pockyD]

zelda's usmash works fine in 1.0 or whatever

 

[idea]

DK vs Falco = DK vs Fox?


Hahaha, that made me laugh.

which is worse? now that you mention it i can see falco being harder for dk, between lasers and dair + dk's recovery. doesn't seem like dk gimping falco would make up for falco pseudo-gimping dk.

zelda-falco sounds more like 7-3 to me but i could also believe 6-4...but...not as easily as 7-3.

if falco dairs behind zelda's lightshield, does she still have time to kick him before he can run away?

 

[x After Dawn x]

zelda should be 4-6 with falco cause she has a down B move that makes it more equal.

lol...realistically though, zelda vs falco should be 3-7.

 

[pockyD]

falco's much harder for dk

 

[Cosmo!]

guys did you ****ing forget how ****ing terrible zeldas grab is its ****ing terrible falco will destroy her with shield pressure not even trying too hard . zelda has some TRICKS but falco has the advantage by a lot its like 7-3

what **** falcos do you play that let you grab them (with any character) as a counter to shield pressure?

 

[Strong Badam]

DK vs Falco = DK vs Fox?


Hahaha, that made me laugh.

the chart going from a 100 scale to a 10 scale and bad rounding caused that.

 

[RaynEX]

DK vs Falco = DK vs Fox?


Hahaha, that made me laugh.

falco's much harder for dk

Would you agree that Fox v DK is 6/4 and Falco 7/3?

I don't have a good opinion on that match-up. I know its definitely not even for Dk vs. either of them, and that Falco is harder. Still, 7/3 feels like a stretch.

what **** falcos do you play that let you grab them (with any character) as a counter to shield pressure?

I love your sig lol

 

[Europhoria]

I thought Zelda's grab was slow enough that Falco do a d-air and l-cancel into his own grab and it would be faster. I forget where/who told me this, might have been David actually.

 

[RaynEX]

Maybe a low dair?

 

[Strong Badam]

Would you agree that Fox v DK is 6/4 and Falco 7/3?

I don't have a good opinion on that match-up. I know its definitely not even for Dk vs. either of them, and that Falco is harder. Still, 7/3 feels like a stretch.

7/3 seems like a stretch when that's the current value for both fox vs. dk and falco vs. dk...? 6-4 fox imo if we're going down that route; it became 7-3 because of the rounding crap that happened.

 

[Europhoria]

Yeah, I think a bunch of characters can do it with other moves as well.

 

[idea]

Anyone know any frame data on shield stun?

Apparently zelda grabs on frame 12-13 and falco on 7-8. so falco's dair on shield minus zelda's shield stun would need to equal 4 frames or less, right...?

 

[N64]

I thought falco was one of DK's worst matchups. Lasers **** Dk, they hit his little tuft of hair that pokes out of his shield and then turn him around so he effectively no longer has a viable OoS option other than upB against falco's approach.

 

[x After Dawn x]

lol some people might not know this cause they don't main falco but

falco can basically space his lasers so they're either really high, normal, or really low, but no matter what you do, dk gets ***** by every single one in the world.

 

[phish-it]

DK vs Fox is mainly stage dependant but 6-4 fox is accurate. Falco is one of DK's hardest if not hardest match up in the game. Lasers ruin any approaches he has, remove is dash dance game and turn him around so he can't attack in the air quickly with his back air, Falco just keeps DK from moving around and should have control of the whole match. Falco's Dair prevents any type of crouch cancel grabbing DK can do to most characters at low percents as well.

Falco should be lower than 3/7 should be more like 2/7.




I also want to give a little insight on people ****ting all over yoshi.

I'll start by saying Fox and Falco both **** him harder than that, they are probably his worst matchups and can out-prioritize him well. Falco's shine breaks his double jump at 0.

I also want to put out that Marth does in no way **** yoshi harder than the space animals, he's probably his best high/top tier match up. Marth has trouble breaking his 2nd jump without a tipped smash, thus he can eat marths sword and retaliate in marths lag. Eggs can screw up marths recovery and set up for a kill.

I don't know how many people actually play yoshi, but I just wanted to throw that out there. Yoshi's low tier matchups looks awfully wrong too but I don't even know if I want to get into that.

 

[worldjem7]

wtf is "2/7" ??

And this chart is going back to 100 next update.

 

[JPOBS]

phish-it talk to us about yoshi

 

[Europhoria]

Oh I used to main Yoshi, he's so cute and awesome but really he's terrible. Fox, Falco, Sheik + others are all 10-0 match ups against Yoshi.

 

[Strong Badam]

i'd just like to say that powershielding falco's lasers makes the match-up a ton easier
but it's still really bad

 

[SDC]

I was watching a fumi vid, and fumi's so good, for a moment he actually makes you think that if yoshi had a great recovery, he would be atleast midtier. Lol poor yoshi: nintendo's *****.

 

[Yo$himan]

you should make a team chart!

 

[john!]

you should make a team chart!

Oh dear God. We're having enough trouble with a chart 600 times smaller.

 

[Ryzol_]

7/3 seems like a stretch when that's the current value for both fox vs. dk and falco vs. dk...? 6-4 fox imo if we're going down that route; it became 7-3 because of the rounding crap that happened.

Fox vs. CF is 6-4. No way DK does as well vs Fox as CF does.

DK gets laser camped all day, and is easy to uair combo. DK does have a good grab game against fox, but DK is slow, and has a poor grab range. DK also isn't intimidating enough that he can force flinches. Dk can space bairs, but if he's spacing bairs then he can't grab. This seems more like a 7-3 matchup and I could see falco as being 8-2. Falco ***** DK HARD.

 

[phish-it]

Falcon can get gimped hard by fox where as it's not as easy to gimp DK. You say DK gets up air comboed by fox easily but it's funny because he can do the same thing back to him.

 

[Strong Badam]

DK is slow

he's slightly slower than marth, sheik, pika, and pichu. he isn't slow.

unless you use DK or have extensive experience as fox vs. good DK players, i don't want to discuss match-ups with you. same for anyone else. it's just annoying. "yea but.... they ****!!!" is obvious. the fox match-up was originally 65-35 and falco was 70-30 which makes a hell of a lot more sense, but since the system is now on a 10 scale, we can't have that sense of accuracy, so stop whining.

 

[Pink Reaper]

I don't even play DK but I know that you can grab Fox out of a spaced Bair lol

 

[Sasha]

If this sounds noobish, meh.

What exactly makes the Sheik-Marth matchup in Sheik's favor? I'm trying to pick up Sheik as a secondary, but the only Marth's I play aren't too great, so I don't have any real experience in the MU.

I can think of needles, crazy combo game, speed, gimping, and grab game, but I'm not entirely sure how that beats out everything that Marth's got.

Anyone care to explain?

 

[x After Dawn x]

Downthrow.

 

[wool]

I can think of needles, crazy combo game, speed, gimping, and grab game, but I'm not entirely sure how that beats out everything that Marth's got.

Lol, you just answered yourself

 

[unknown522]

If this sounds noobish, meh.

What exactly makes the Sheik-Marth matchup in Sheik's favor? I'm trying to pick up Sheik as a secondary, but the only Marth's I play aren't too great, so I don't have any real experience in the MU.

I can think of needles, crazy combo game, speed, gimping, and grab game, but I'm not entirely sure how that beats out everything that Marth's got.

Anyone care to explain?

Sheik's combo game isn't that good against marth. She can get 3 hits if they bother to DI.

All the other things you listed is pretty much why sheik beats marth. She can camp the **** out of him easily and has an easy punish game on marth between needle -> grab, standard grab, and the fact that she gets a minimum of 3 hits for every punish she gets. Their edgeguarding is amazing on each other, but sheik's is generally easier to get, because of needles and he f-air sending marth on a ******** angle. She also beats his moves if she's close enough, though marth will try as hard as he can to keep you out.

Anyways, it's 6-4 for sheik.

 

[-ACE-]

Sheik's combo game isn't that good against marth. She can get 3 hits if they bother to DI.

All the other things you listed is pretty much why sheik beats marth. She can camp the **** out of him easily and has an easy punish game on marth between needle -> grab, standard grab, and the fact that she gets a minimum of 3 hits for every punish she gets. Their edgeguarding is amazing on each other, but sheik's is generally easier to get, because of needles and he f-air sending marth on a ******** angle. She also beats his moves if she's close enough, though marth will try as hard as he can to keep you out.

Anyways, it's 6-4 for sheik.

The next time someone brings up the marth/sheik matchup again, they should just read this post. It's a very accurate and concise summary imo.

 

[x After Dawn x]

When's the next update?