Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]

[Fortress | Sveet]

a win is a win. the goal of the game is to win. there are two ways to do it, 1) remove 4 stocks from the opponent before they remove 4 from you or 2) be in the lead when the time limit is up. if someone does something to get them closer to that, but you are upset because they played "gay" then you are a scrub, by definition.

playing for "pride" or "honor" or anything else other than the win is straight up scrub bull****.


and ace, there are very few times when someone gets lucky in melee. if you mess up your tech skill to finish the game, and then they kill you, that isn't luck. if they hit you into the stage and you miss your tech, that isn't luck.

 

[Cosmo!]

Yo I said this before

but Zelda vs Sheik, on your chart, is 2/8

This makes a lot of sense and is the right number

But Zelda vs Marth and Zelda vs Falco are also 2/8 on the chart

this makes no sense at all as those matchups are a TON easier for Zelda in basically every way, into the realm of "very winnable"

What UmbreonMow said earlier about these matchups was the truth

 

[-ACE-]

and ace, there are very few times when someone gets lucky in melee. if you mess up your tech skill to finish the game, and then they kill you, that isn't luck. if they hit you into the stage and you miss your tech, that isn't luck.

I never said it happens all the time. Shy guys, randall, barrells, wind, battlefield, etc. DO have an effect on the outcome of matches. It's really not that rare. Of course those instances you mentioned aren't luck, lol. Saying that the ONLY MEASURE OF SKILL is determined by which name is on the victory screen is what I contested. Using the word "only" means there are no exceptions, and in this case exceptions exist.

 

[adumbrodeus]

This is why planking is often banned in brawl (take a picture, I never use the B word). There is a time limit on matches for a reason. You play to win, but sometimes some sort of line must be drawn.

And that line is why some things are banned. But if something isn't banned, then do it. If it's truly overpowering, then it getting used will help in it's banning.


If you DON'T use it, then you make it impossible for us to tell whether it's banworthy, and therefore it won't get banned, hence the problem with planking.

No one is forced to do anything. Some players deserve the money and some players deserve the respect. Campers are disliked at times because waiting and letting your opponent make a mistake is sometimes synonymous with admitting that you are more likely to make a mistake than your opponent. If your opponent feels that this is the case (it's not always the case of course), he might be willing to express his opinion, and here we are. This happens more often than you'd think.

BS, this is melee, f***ing up defensively is as easy as f***ing up offensively.


Even if it wasn't, it still is nothing of the kind, a person doesn't need to be more likely to make mistakes to camp, it could just put them in a better position and they're taking advantage of that.


If a person feels that they won't make mistakes and are too aggressive because of that, there's a word for that, overconfidence.



Ultimately, it's the most irrational way to met out respect, respect is for the people who play to win and do it the best, if they're refusing to play to win, they're handicapping themselves with an arbitrary set of made up rules, why is that worthy of respect?

Wrong. Sometimes you can clearly see that the person that lost a match has a great deal of skill, and often it is obvious that the winner got very lucky. This is common sense.

Amortized.

Granted, there are some exceptions (for example, being particularly good at a given match-up) but in general you are more skilled then somebody if in general you beat them.


Saying, "I'm more skilled, but I lost because he camps", is just a John, if he beats you reliably, including through camping, then he's more skilled then you.

 

[-ACE-]

And that line is why some things are banned. But if something isn't banned, then do it. If it's truly overpowering, then it getting used will help in it's banning.

If you DON'T use it, then you make it impossible for us to tell whether it's banworthy, and therefore it won't get banned, hence the problem with planking.

I never said anything should be banned. When you say "truly overpowering" that is your opinion. I can see someone saying that the potential for camping on KJ64 is "truly overpowering" even though I don't feel this way, nor do I think the stage should be banned.

BS, this is melee, f***ing up defensively is as easy as f***ing up offensively.

Even if it wasn't, it still is nothing of the kind, a person doesn't need to be more likely to make mistakes to camp, it could just put them in a better position and they're taking advantage of that.

If you're constantly maintaining a safe distance from your opponent, you can make quite a few mistakes and see no punishment (see pink shinobi vs rockcrock), whereas if you f*** up offensively there is a much greater chance of you being wide open for an attack, grab, combo, gimp, etc.

You should probably re-read my post. I never said a person "needs to be more likely to make a mistake to camp"

Ultimately, it's the most irrational way to met out respect, respect is for the people who play to win and do it the best, if they're refusing to play to win, they're handicapping themselves with an arbitrary set of made up rules, why is that worthy of respect?

This is just your opinion. Some people look at camping as an easy way out and not worthy of respect, especially when it's obvious that the other player doesn't feel like camping. It's not the only way you can win.

Amortized.

Granted, there are some exceptions (for example, being particularly good at a given match-up) but in general you are more skilled then somebody if in general you beat them.

Saying, "I'm more skilled, but I lost because he camps", is just a John, if he beats you reliably, including through camping, then he's more skilled then you.

This is true. Don't automatically assume that I deny that someone that camps has skill just because I point that your logic is not always applicable.

 

[Pink Reaper]

This is just your opinion. Some people look at camping as an easy way out and not worthy of respect, especially when it's obvious that the other player doesn't feel like camping. It's not the only way you can win.

I consider Fox an easy way out and not worthy of respect. Because honestly, there is no skill in hitting Down B.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

ace stop trolling and stop johning. a win is a win. every factor in tournament legal melee is calculated. randall isn't random, he moves in intervals of 5 seconds. rainbow cruise and pokefloats have nothing random on them. there are 4 random things; jungle japes' clap trap, dk64's barrel, the wind on dl64, and the fire on brinstar. all of these factors are allowed because you can react to them. if the wind starts blowing, you hear and see it. when the acid comes on brinstar, you jump to avoid it. just because something is based on probability doesn't mean there isn't player skill involved. if you're edgeguarding and someone gets the barrel, you don't just walk away and cry "OMG YOU'RE SO LUCKY" you deal with it and predict where they will release and hit them back off.

every single other thing in the game is 100% player controlled or completely predictable (stage knowledge is a skill) and 0% luck.

 

[Strong Badam]

lol religion.

i love you unknown can i have your babies

lol @ people arguing about "skill" and "respect" in a fighting game where the object of the game is to win. if you camp in friendlies then you're stupid and aren't exploring other options and improving your repertoire of abilities. if you do it in tourney and it works then good, you deserved to win.

 

[N64]

I don't have a strong stance on camping/stalling personally. I don't like it/do it, but I don't think it's inherently wrong. It's generally looked down upon, but I don't really personally. Having said that, I'd like to comment on a few things.

I think people should understand that a camping style can cause 8 minute matches, but if you're camping and intend to win that matchup you at least have to have the percentage advantage at the end. Fox/Falco don't mind this too much as on most stages they cna just pewpew until one hits and then try to run away for a while, but if you ever mess up and do get hit, the pressure is now on you to regain your percentage advantage. It's not a "if i can survive 8 minutes i win" alone.

And yes, Peach vs. Ganon on DK64 promotes camping for the peach. Because Ganon is horridly slow and has little aerial mobility so if you force him to try to approach you, he's going to have obvious difficulty. It's one of the reasons why he's mid tier. He's a mildly bad character. There are broken tactics that make things unwinnable regardless of skill, and those are banworthy, but character selection, especially with the system we have where you know what stage you're going to after the first round and can pick an appropriate character, then you can conciously choose to not create a situation where the opponent is able to camp you so well. In the example match everyone's using, Rockcrock could have simply picked Falcon and probably significantly improved his chances.

And for anyone who wishes to reply with "but what if they only play one character competatively?" Well, then they're willingly doing this. I don't intend to balance the game for one-char-only people (I pretty much only play pika in tourney, and I accept the disadvantages that gives me). Having more tournament ready characters SHOULD offer one some advantages imo, as you either have more skill or have invested more time into developing multiple characters.

 

[-ACE-]

ace stop trolling and stop johning. a win is a win. every factor in tournament legal melee is calculated. randall isn't random, he moves in intervals of 5 seconds. rainbow cruise and pokefloats have nothing random on them. there are 4 random things; jungle japes' clap trap, dk64's barrel, the wind on dl64, and the fire on brinstar. all of these factors are allowed because you can react to them. if the wind starts blowing, you hear and see it. when the acid comes on brinstar, you jump to avoid it. just because something is based on probability doesn't mean there isn't player skill involved. if you're edgeguarding and someone gets the barrel, you don't just walk away and cry "OMG YOU'RE SO LUCKY" you deal with it and predict where they will release and hit them back off.

every single other thing in the game is 100% player controlled or completely predictable (stage knowledge is a skill) and 0% luck.

I'm not trolling, and I'm definitely not johning. This is melee DISCUSSION, if you don't like my opinion don't whine about it, deal with it.

I know randall and many other elements are not random, but if you aren't constantly paying attention to these things (not many people do in the heat of battle), if they don't work out in your favor it's just bad luck (when it determines the outcome of a set or match).

No more posts on this from me, don't worry. Some people just can't take someone's opinion being different than their own.

 

[Strong Badam]

i've beaten peaches with Donkey Kong on DK64
rockcrock shoulda gone w/ the monkey

those peaches referred to me as "a camper," after they counterpicked to DK64 and picked Peach, btw, which I find amusing.

 

[N64]

there are 4 random things; jungle japes' clap trap, dk64's barrel, the wind on dl64, and the fire on brinstar.

every single other thing in the game is 100% player controlled or completely predictable (stage knowledge is a skill) and 0% luck.

Shy guys on Yoshi's Story
Stage changes on Pokemon Stadium
Platform height and adjust times on Fountain of Dreams
Arwings on Corneria
Block fall time/position and type on Green Greens
Apple fall time/position and type on Green Greens

that's all i can think of atm, might be a couple more

 

[Pink Reaper]

The ledges on Battlefield LOL

 

[TheManaLord]

the whole game has ALWAYS been flawed because of casual roots

this game should be played WITHOUT CHANGING YOUR CHARACTER and ONLY ON FD AND BATTLEFIELD

this game would continue to be a success to this day if these rules were standardized in mlg and it would still be on evo and its popularity would rival that of the 3s community and brawl might be playable if at least a decent ruleset was used

there are so many bells and whistles to the rules on this game its stupid the **** have always done it better no cgs no camps (not technically rules but general themes) limited stages character retention etcc



noob game anyways its a party game

 

[Europhoria]

Brinstar fire isn't random. It has a set pattern that NEVER changes and is super easy to follow.
Camping isn't bad and it's certainly part of the game (however boring and depressing I may find it).

However, when a stage (not match up) can create a scenario in which a player can run 8 minutes off the clock and win the game with a small % lead and both players have 4 stocks is dumb. The match up only helps, but really it's the stage that creates the scenario to allow it to happen in the cases of DK 64/Japes/Floats That's why I feel those stages should be banned.

 

[N64]

ban fox/peach/jiggs mirite?

Problem solved!

 

[adumbrodeus]

I never said anything should be banned. When you say "truly overpowering" that is your opinion. I can see someone saying that the potential for camping on KJ64 is "truly overpowering" even though I don't feel this way, nor do I think the stage should be banned.

Not really, is it automatically "do this or lose", then that's truly overpowering.


You should read Sirlin's article, on banning, it's very useful for deciding this.

If you're constantly maintaining a safe distance from your opponent, you can make quite a few mistakes and see no punishment (see pink shinobi vs rockcrock), whereas if you f*** up offensively there is a much greater chance of you being wide open for an attack, grab, combo, gimp, etc.

You should probably re-read my post. I never said a person "needs to be more likely to make a mistake to camp"

Constantly maintaining a safe distance is where you can mess up.


I was disagreeing with the view you suggested, I never said it was your personal view.

This is just your opinion. Some people look at camping as an easy way out and not worthy of respect, especially when it's obvious that the other player doesn't feel like camping. It's not the only way you can win.

It's more then my view, it's really the only way a competative community can function well, because otherwise it becomes unable to evolve to keep up with the changing metagame, and it becomes mired with an endless array of "disapproved of situations" to the point that you lose sight of the original game.

City of heroes is a great example.

This is true. Don't automatically assume that I deny that someone that camps has skill just because I point that your logic is not always applicable.

What I was talking about was johning and using camping as a john.


The test of who is more skillful is who wins, that was the point I was getting across, not in the individual but the overall sense.

 

[Lovage]

the acid on brinstar is fine
it's the goop that connects the stage that delays your attacks that's dumb

 

[Europhoria]

Your avatar is funny.

 

[-ACE-]

I see what you're saying, Adumbrodeous. For the record, I have never made excuses for someone camping me, EVER (and I've been to like 20+ tournaments). As a Ganon main I love playing Sheik and spacies lol. I even like it when people camp me because I really enjoy competition and it's great practice for dealing with such strategies. That being said, I'm also a fan of healthy discussion.

 

[JPOBS]

a win is a win. the goal of the game is to win. there are two ways to do it, 1) remove 4 stocks from the opponent before they remove 4 from you or 2) be in the lead when the time limit is up. if someone does something to get them closer to that, but you are upset because they played "gay" then you are a scrub, by definition.

playing for "pride" or "honor" or anything else other than the win is straight up scrub bull****.


and ace, there are very few times when someone gets lucky in melee. if you mess up your tech skill to finish the game, and then they kill you, that isn't luck. if they hit you into the stage and you miss your tech, that isn't luck.

No one is arguing that people should play for "pride" or :honor"

but, the simple fact of the matter is that, gay playstyles and camping and etc are actually not that common in tournament play despite their obvious advantages. and whether you like to admit it or not, the reason for this is simply because most people actually do care to play for the fun and challenge of the game and not just be gay.

thats all there is. No one is saying any playstyle should be held in higher regard, but you have to be ignorant to not understand what we're trying to say. Camping and cp gay stages arent invalid strategies, but this whole discussion spawned from a comment soemthing like "i dont understand why mor epeople dont play gay in tourny"

and the simple reason is honor. a win is a win, but winning isnt everything.

 

[wool]

I dont really understand why this is such a complex topic.
Or maybe no one agrees with my views.

But 90% of the time when camping benefits me, I usually dont because the game becomes boring (ok not AS boring as brawl, but getting there..) and I feel that my opponent also feels bored lol. Im not in desperate need of money, (which would be like 100 bucks at local tournies if I win?) I am here to get better, and have fun. I donno, thats just how I feel about camping.

If I played someone that camped (like Pink Shinobi on that vid of jungle japes) and I was playing Ganon or someone who cant jump, Id be pretty annoyed since its not fun for me (and I doubt its fun for him? though I can see how throwing turnips at people from above brings some laughs if you think about it lol). Id rather just give him the win, and say lets just play anyway and regardless of who wins, let him advance.

And sick combos are too cool to pass up.

 

[idea]

really, there's nothing to talk about...camping is not fun for most people, for some people it is/they're okay with it, it's sometimes advantageous...i was gonna write a long post about it but i actually got bored just typing it up.

now can someone please respond to the claims that zelda isn't that bad against marth and falco, or whatever it was?

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Projectile camping is just gay and switch out to someone less campable like fox(shine, fast and gayer camp if they still camp you), marth(in space camping like j-puff), falco(can you camp a falco? that's good), falcon(amazing speed), or pichu(really small/hard to hit and fast).

I mean some people like the ice climbers are just gayed the F*** out of. I saw my brother pick link and duck and throw out a projectile if it was safe and he use a tilt if I came near him it was pretty gay I I had about 10 or more kills at the end but it was still pretty gay. The ice climbers don't have many anti camping tools, I mean you could play a crapy camp as them with de-synced ice blocks and when they get near you WD grab.
But their to slow(ice blocks)

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah Zelda actually does alright vs Falco.

-Nayru's love keeps Falco from spamming somewhat

-Fair/Bair OOS are good stuffs to Falco's aerial (and sometimes ground) approaches. It's also relatively safe since Zelda can throw out another aerial by the time Falco tries to rush in and punish the first kick.

-Zelda's weight keeps her from being comboed, and the drift/aerial mobility she has allows her to come back to the stage easily

-Falco is offstage from a lightning kick at mid percents I think(don't really remember)

-I want to say Zelda can Uthrow to lightning kick but I don't really remember lol

-Dsmash is a great edgeguard because it ends quickly and reaches low so Zelda can quickly get to wherever Falco moves if he doesn't firebird onto the edge(obviously it also punishes attempts to phantasm onto the edge).

-Falco has to be careful when trying to Bair to follow up a hit because he can get lightning kicked out of it. I guess you could say this discourages combos or at least adds a level of apprehension to chasing Zelda but that may vary from person to person and with experience.



Granted, Falco has the advantage in this matchup, which is largely due to shield pressure and better follow ups in my opinion, but Zelda can keep up for sure.

The reason why I know anything about this is because I played a guy by the name of Shag from GA at a tournament, who is a Zelda main. He's really good. In the 5 or so matches I played with him I "learned" this stuff so if it's not totally correct don't kill me lol.

Shag told me the matchup is 55/45 Falco. I could see that or 60/40.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Zelda can chain grab Falco and combo throw --> kick.

 

[NES n00b]

Everyone camps just people do it in varying degrees. People shouldn't be so self conscious about whether they are too campy. They should just play to get better and whatever works, works. Whatever doesn't work, doesn't.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Nobody thinks like that.

 

[idea]

If you only camp a little that's not really camping. That's just...not approaching 100% at all times mega always. It's more a matter of degree. "Camping" is being so campy that you pass the tipping point and it is no longer "defensive". =P

Being "defensive" is like going to a swordfight, and bringing a shield. Being "campy" is like going to a swordfight, as an archer, on that big hill in the distance.

And I really can't see zelda-falco being 55-45, but 6-4 sounds more reasonable. ...I don't have any strong feelings either way about whiscash.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Whiscash learns Dragon Dance now.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dude Whiscash is awesome because he's like a Catfish.

I'd probably side with 6/4.

 

[NES n00b]

If you only camp a little that's not really camping. That's just...not approaching 100% at all times mega always. It's more a matter of degree. "Camping" is being so campy that you pass the tipping point and it is no longer "defensive". =P

This definition is not only arbitrary, but is somewhat contradictory by saying that an action done for *insert some random small number* is not really that action. Camping is more about waiting in some kind of positional advantage anyway which all people do. Maybe not always for long periods of time, but people do.

 

[KillaLotus]

This whole camp discussion wouldn't even exist if not 4 smores

 

[adumbrodeus]

I see what you're saying, Adumbrodeous. For the record, I have never made excuses for someone camping me, EVER (and I've been to like 20+ tournaments). As a Ganon main I love playing Sheik and spacies lol. I even like it when people camp me because I really enjoy competition and it's great practice for dealing with such strategies. That being said, I'm also a fan of healthy discussion.

Whereas I love camping and consider it a failure when my matches last anything less then 8/7 minutes (depending on the timer) regardless of the match-up.


Unfortunately I suck at it so generally I play rather offensively.



Realize, I wasn't saying you were johning, it was more a statement about how the community as a whole needs to get over it's scrub stage and realize, "it's legal, they should do this".

If you only camp a little that's not really camping. That's just...not approaching 100% at all times mega always. It's more a matter of degree. "Camping" is being so campy that you pass the tipping point and it is no longer "defensive". =P

Being "defensive" is like going to a swordfight, and bringing a shield. Being "campy" is like going to a swordfight, as an archer, on that big hill in the distance.

And I really can't see zelda-falco being 55-45, but 6-4 sounds more reasonable. ...I don't have any strong feelings either way about whiscash.

My personal preference is to bring death satellites to swordfights, controlled from half a world away.



But seriously, is there anything wrong with being campy.

 

[x After Dawn x]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvqNcRXyj2s

Too funny.

 

[KillaLotus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvqNcRXyj2s

Too funny.

sudden death match zelda with bombs dropping from the sky has at least an 70/30 advantage over falco XD

 

[idea]

This definition is not only arbitrary, but is somewhat contradictory by saying that an action done for *insert some random small number* is not really that action. Camping is more about waiting in some kind of positional advantage anyway which all people do. Maybe not always for long periods of time, but people do.

Yeah, it would have made more sense if one or two of the times I said "camping" I had put it in quotes like that, to show that I think there should be some other word for it...but I don't like it when people say "thing in quotes" and then explain why it's not actually that, because then you're saying twice that it's the wrong word, and that's unnecessary.

...Anyway. Camping is irritating. "Camping" is not. I can clearly distinguish between the two, even if I'm not explaining it correctly. Cactuar "camps" a lot. Teh Spamerer actually camps a lot. I think we understand each other on that point, but as is often the case, the word choice screwed everything up.

Half the time my friends and I are arguing about something, it ends up that we agreed the whole time and were just using different words for the same thing.

Oh, and I can use the FPS analogy again. If you go wait on a roof for...let's say 20 seconds, getting someone else to waste their rockets or something trying to hit you, and THEN you go after them...that's different from sitting on the same roof for half an hour.

I'm not saying camping is bad, by the way, if i didn't explicitly say that yet. I just don't like it. It's usually not as fun as the alternative. I'm not really in the smash community for any reason other than fun. And I figure matches might as well be fun for both people, within reasonable limits.

...Too many words. TL:DR camping =/= waiting.

But seriously, is there anything wrong with being campy.

No. Unless you're a utilitarian.

 

[wool]

Yeah Zelda actually does alright vs Falco.

-Nayru's love keeps Falco from spamming somewhat

-Fair/Bair OOS are good stuffs to Falco's aerial (and sometimes ground) approaches. It's also relatively safe since Zelda can throw out another aerial by the time Falco tries to rush in and punish the first kick.

-Zelda's weight keeps her from being comboed, and the drift/aerial mobility she has allows her to come back to the stage easily

-Falco is offstage from a lightning kick at mid percents I think(don't really remember)

-I want to say Zelda can Uthrow to lightning kick but I don't really remember lol

-Dsmash is a great edgeguard because it ends quickly and reaches low so Zelda can quickly get to wherever Falco moves if he doesn't firebird onto the edge(obviously it also punishes attempts to phantasm onto the edge).

-Falco has to be careful when trying to Bair to follow up a hit because he can get lightning kicked out of it. I guess you could say this discourages combos or at least adds a level of apprehension to chasing Zelda but that may vary from person to person and with experience.



Granted, Falco has the advantage in this matchup, which is largely due to shield pressure and better follow ups in my opinion, but Zelda can keep up for sure.

The reason why I know anything about this is because I played a guy by the name of Shag from GA at a tournament, who is a Zelda main. He's really good. In the 5 or so matches I played with him I "learned" this stuff so if it's not totally correct don't kill me lol.

Shag told me the matchup is 55/45 Falco. I could see that or 60/40.

60 40? Really? I understand all of what you said (though I heard Naryus is less reliable and Zeldas prefer to Powershield camp those pesky lasers) but that seems a bit too good for Zelda. Her mobility sucks which is why I feel Falco would tear her apart. Admittingly I have no experience whatsoever in the matchup...but I cant see a Zelda getting too many fairs and bairs in a match against Falco.
#1 She can't really approach. Not really a problem on FD and the like, but on stages with platforms I can see Zeldas having loads of trouble.
#2 A missed fair/bair can be badly punished. That even disrupts her powershield camp game/Naryus b thing and can lead to 2-3 lasers followed by a shffl aerial.
#3 Her mobility. Really stinks and against a Falco I would fear for the Zelda
But as you can tell I don't have experience with the matchup. I just can't imagine Zelda doing so well besides OoS fairs/bairs (which still can be reallllly hard to pull off..unless you powershield those too )

EDIT: Oh and uthrow to lightning kick only works on very high percentages (correct if i am wrong)

 

[Dr Peepee]

Okay well I just got post ***** but basically both sides of the argument are there, and I think #3 is why Falco wins the matchup and my previous points(adding in the fact that he can't laser to aerial her due to her light weight so long as she retreats)give Zelda a chance.

Oh and I never see Zelda having to approach. She can just PS/NL lasers and make the match gay until Falco approaches. Defensive Zelda has options like SH'ing to take a laser and then kick Falco or bait a grab or shield pressure aerial and kick OOS.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Idea, i don't like repeating this over and over so this will probably be my last time.

"camping" and camping, huh. so if you never approach and spam, thats camping, and if you don't approach until they give up an advantage and you attack to exploit their disadvantage, thats "camping". is that what you're saying?

i don't see how they are different. what if i'm camping but i never see an opening, does that mean i should just throw myself at them and hope for the best? thats what it seems like everyone who is anti-camping is suggesting.