Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]

[Strong Badam]

he's saying that it's difficult to get 4 grabs with a punch charged against a good fox.
not to mention the fact that there isn't an M2K of DK as of yet that has been able to consistently 0-death spacies with DK every single grab.

i do not agree with the peach ratio you gave c 3. the match-up isn't even close to being that bad. 60-40 at worst.

 

[Kyu Puff]

DK fox is 65-35 if not worse mainly because of shine. Yes, DK can 0-death fox on FD, but against good foxes, good luck getting the grab. No DK out there can perfectly 0-death from one grab, so trying to get multiple grabs on fox is really tough. Not to mention the usual Usmash Uair crap.

A good Fox will never slip up and get grabbed, but a good DK can't be consistent with his grab combos?

Edit -- Even if they aren't 0 to deaths, they will always put Fox at killing percentage. Both characters can reap a lot of damage out of every hit against each other; it's just a matter of who lands more initial hits. DK has a range advantage and can techchase or dd into a fair amount of grabs, but imo it's only Fox's camping that forces DK into more disadvantaged situations.

I agree with you on DK-Falco though.

 

[Strong Badam]

the thing is, regardless of whether or not DK kills from every grab on FD, what does Donkey Kong do when he puts his token on Donkey Kong and his opponent says "I ban Final Destination, what do you ban?"
DK does have a range advantage, but it's almost completely nullified by Fox's speed and priority.

 

[JPOBS]

the thing is, regardless of whether or not DK kills from every grab on FD, what does Donkey Kong do when he puts his token on Donkey Kong and his opponent says "I ban Final Destination, what do you ban?"

i lol'd because its true.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

It's a shame that Falcomist vs. pkmvodka at OC3 wasn't recorded.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Person who asked about CGs and DK on FD: He's saying "human error, position, mashing, lack of giant punch, and other factors will prevent you from doing perfect death cgs every time like some people insist he can".

I agree with Kyu that it's not fair to assume that DK will screw up if Fox will screw up, but you won't have a Punch at all times. Up+B is pretty good, but it's no Giant Punch.

And if they ban FD, like Strong_Bad said, your best strategy is probably to start crying and see if they'll take it back.

 

[Strong Badam]

DK can actually combo into F-air in absence of a Giant Punch to finish his combos. It's difficult to do correctly, though, and usually I **** up before that point anyway. ^_^

To be fair, I don't really like FD as a counterpick for Donkey Kong, either, as platforms give him options and his gimping abilities are improved on stages like Brinstar or Jungle Japes. Most Donkey Kongs of old (Bum and MEXICAN for sure, not sure about pkm) would prefer other stages over FD, but fair well on the stage if it comes up on random.

 

[KirbyKaze]

DK's Fair is kind of weak for how slow and scary the move is

 

[BigD!!!]

you can finish with fair pretty often, but yeah it still doesnt kill

besides all space animals have to do is hold one direction and they'll go off the level at around 40% and if they dont get edgeguarded, its back to square one for dk

 

[KirbyKaze]

can't you just f-smash them if they do that?

 

[BigD!!!]

i've never tried it, but i cant imagine the fsmash coming out fast enough

you can shffl an uair into a standing giant punch at the edge though

although i will go back and say you could definitely get them up to like 50-60% starting from a grab at 0 assuming you dont mess up, 40% was too low of an estimate

 

[KAOSTAR]

you can finish with fair pretty often, but yeah it still doesnt kill

besides all space animals have to do is hold one direction and they'll go off the level at around 40% and if they dont get edgeguarded, its back to square one for dk

At least it looks like it does, ppl are at least afraid of it lol

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

At least it looks like it does, ppl are at least afraid of it lol

Not after reading this page.

 

[otg]

can't you just f-smash them if they do that?

if you have the his Donkey Punched at ALL it will connect and ****.

 

[C 3]

he's saying that it's difficult to get 4 grabs with a punch charged against a good fox.
not to mention the fact that there isn't an M2K of DK as of yet that has been able to consistently 0-death spacies with DK every single grab.

i do not agree with the peach ratio you gave c 3. the match-up isn't even close to being that bad. 60-40 at worst.

Yes, that's basically what i'm saying. I gave reasons for my peach match up, you could at least give a reason.

A good Fox will never slip up and get grabbed, but a good DK can't be consistent with his grab combos?

Edit -- Even if they aren't 0 to deaths, they will always put Fox at killing percentage. Both characters can reap a lot of damage out of every hit against each other; it's just a matter of who lands more initial hits. DK has a range advantage and can techchase or dd into a fair amount of grabs, but imo it's only Fox's camping that forces DK into more disadvantaged situations.

I agree with you on DK-Falco though.

I'm not saying it's not possible, but it is very rare, not to mention very hard to do. It's much easier for a fox to avoid being grabbed with nairs and shines than DK doing perfect 0-deaths.

the thing is, regardless of whether or not DK kills from every grab on FD, what does Donkey Kong do when he puts his token on Donkey Kong and his opponent says "I ban Final Destination, what do you ban?"
DK does have a range advantage, but it's almost completely nullified by Fox's speed and priority.

my thoughts exactly.

It's a shame that Falcomist vs. pkmvodka at OC3 wasn't recorded.

I heard he 4 stocked falcomist. That's awesome, but PKM is grossly better than him. IMO, a DK can beat a falco on 2 conditions:

1.) he's a lot better than the falco player
2.) the falco player somehow doesn't know what to do

can't you just f-smash them if they do that?

yes

 

[KirbyKaze]

i've never tried it, but i cant imagine the fsmash coming out fast enough

you can shffl an uair into a standing giant punch at the edge though

although i will go back and say you could definitely get them up to like 50-60% starting from a grab at 0 assuming you dont mess up, 40% was too low of an estimate

I remember Mexican said to just U-throw Uair F-smash if they did that **** and I trusted him to it working, but idk if it's too slow then whatever.

 

[BigD!!!]

he wouldnt say it if he hadnt done it, so it probably does work

i'll try it next time i play some dudes

nice sig kk

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I heard he 4 stocked falcomist. That's awesome, but PKM is grossly better than him. IMO, a DK can beat a falco on 2 conditions:

1.) he's a lot better than the falco player
2.) the falco player somehow doesn't know what to do

Falcomist won the set against pkm. I think it's unfortunate that their set was not recorded because, based on what I've heard, it'd be great example of why that match-up sucks.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I heard PKM won game 1 and then Falcomist cp'd Japes and did ultimate laser spacing and PKM got upset and quit the set.

DK needs his moves to stay out proportionately long to how slow they are, and have hitboxes sized for that inconvenience. Seriously. His Fair should be like double Ganon's for how freaking slow it is.

edit: I also found Mexican's comment on Youtube and yeah, F-smash is too slow. You need Giant Punch. I don't know where I got the idea that F-smash works >___>

 

[C 3]

I heard PKM won game 1 and then Falcomist cp'd Japes and did ultimate laser spacing and PKM got upset and quit the set.

DK needs his moves to stay out proportionately long to how slow they are, and have hitboxes sized for that inconvenience. Seriously. His Fair should be like double Ganon's for how freaking slow it is.

edit: I also found Mexican's comment on Youtube and yeah, F-smash is too slow. You need Giant Punch. I don't know where I got the idea that F-smash works >___>

Game 1 was the 4 stock I as talking about.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I heard PKM won game 1 and then Falcomist cp'd Japes and did ultimate laser spacing and PKM got upset and quit the set.

DK needs his moves to stay out proportionately long to how slow they are, and have hitboxes sized for that inconvenience. Seriously. His Fair should be like double Ganon's for how freaking slow it is.

edit: I also found Mexican's comment on Youtube and yeah, F-smash is too slow. You need Giant Punch. I don't know where I got the idea that F-smash works >___>

Is the match up yet? is there a link?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

so marth vs peach... i think is in peach's favor slightly, 55-45

peach can trade hits and combo about even with marth, but when the stocks get high marth has no real finisher. marth can't edge guard peach at all, nair won't kill until like 150% on YS. the only way i see marth's getting a kill on peach below 150% is dthrow fsmash(tip) if peach DIs wrong. the only other finisher really is sideb->utilt

peach can CC marth forever, so while marth is trying to get the kill peach can tack on LOTS of percent. peach can edge guard marth pretty well if they can aim their turnips (not random tosses), and all of peach's moves lead into edge guards by 90%

 

[Divinokage]

so marth vs peach... i think is in peach's favor slightly, 55-45

peach can trade hits and combo about even with marth, but when the stocks get high marth has no real finisher. marth can't edge guard peach at all, nair won't kill until like 150% on YS. the only way i see marth's getting a kill on peach below 150% is dthrow fsmash(tip) if peach DIs wrong. the only other finisher really is sideb->utilt

peach can CC marth forever, so while marth is trying to get the kill peach can tack on LOTS of percent. peach can edge guard marth pretty well if they can aim their turnips (not random tosses), and all of peach's moves lead into edge guards by 90%

Oh boy.. I heavily disagree on that.. I'll talk about this later.

 

[x After Dawn x]

**** I hate playing Marth in that matchup. So much gay **** happens, it's like you work so hard to get a kill, and then she gets some ridiculously stupid stuff off you (stitchfaces, getting stuck in a 46 % down smash, etc).

I don't know if the matchup is in Peach's favor, but I do know that the matchup is gay and I would not feel comfortable playing it in tourney matches. Getting solid hits and / or finishers is really tough for Marth here, a lot of the stuff that works on fastfallers doesn't work (at least as much) against Peach.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

Been playing a little bit the last 3 weeks.

Luigi/Shiek
25/75

Sheik is just waaaaay too dominant in this matchup.

Needles for everything(basically destroying wavedash approaches at any given time) combined with a bunch of easy grab options and a ton of moves that luigi will, at best, trade with, makes this a very one sided match.

Shiek also ***** Luigi's recovery almost as bad as Jiggs can(IMO Shiek is better at it).

Now, don't get me wrong, Luigi can deal some damage to Shiek(lots of throw options including forward throw wavedash to jab reset up B, if you can catch the non tech, the problem is getting the grab), but Shiek just does it more and does more %(usually leading to 3 or 4 hits before luigi can get back on the offensive) when she does get the hit(especially if its a grab).

Luigi/Falco
40/60

Falco has a lot going for him(lasers) and definitely butt fvcks luigi, but not as bad as Fox does(who has a 35/65 match vs weegee).

I think Falco's recovery plays a very important role in not being as dominant as fox here.

Tho, Falco can kill luigi with 2 shines on YS at 0%. . . .

Still, Luigi can usually kill Falco after 2 get ins, especially if a grab is involved.

Luigi/Marth
30/70

I added Marth here because I think Luigi has a harder time with Marth than Fox.

That's all I'll say here for Tiara wearer.

 

[unknown522]

so marth vs peach... i think is in peach's favor slightly, 55-45

peach can trade hits and combo about even with marth, but when the stocks get high marth has no real finisher. marth can't edge guard peach at all, nair won't kill until like 150% on YS. the only way i see marth's getting a kill on peach below 150% is dthrow fsmash(tip) if peach DIs wrong. the only other finisher really is sideb->utilt

peach can CC marth forever, so while marth is trying to get the kill peach can tack on LOTS of percent. peach can edge guard marth pretty well if they can aim their turnips (not random tosses), and all of peach's moves lead into edge guards by 90%

I hope you're trolling. This matchup is ****.

Been playing a little bit the last 3 weeks.

Luigi/Shiek
25/75

Sheik is just waaaaay too dominant in this matchup.

Needles for everything(basically destroying wavedash approaches at any given time) combined with a bunch of easy grab options and a ton of moves that luigi will, at best, trade with, makes this a very one sided match.

Shiek also ***** Luigi's recovery almost as bad as Jiggs can(IMO Shiek is better at it).

Now, don't get me wrong, Luigi can deal some damage to Shiek(lots of throw options including forward throw wavedash to jab reset up B, if you can catch the non tech, the problem is getting the grab), but Shiek just does it more and does more %(usually leading to 3 or 4 hits before luigi can get back on the offensive) when she does get the hit(especially if its a grab).

agreed.

Luigi/Marth
30/70

I added Marth here because I think Luigi has a harder time with Marth than Fox.

That's all I'll say here for Tiara wearer.

ok

Luigi/Falco
40/60

Falco has a lot going for him(lasers) and definitely butt fvcks luigi, but not as bad as Fox does(who has a 35/65 match vs weegee).

I think Falco's recovery plays a very important role in not being as dominant as fox here.

Tho, Falco can kill luigi with 2 shines on YS at 0%. . . .

Still, Luigi can usually kill Falco after 2 get ins, especially if a grab is involved.

hell no. Falco ***** luigi's *******. Edgeguarding, platform combos, laser, lack of air mobility is ridiculous. Luigi has more priority than falco, but he can avoid luigi really easily and laser the balls off him when he dares to go in the air. Also, if luigi tries to WD in, then falco's lasers stop him in his tracks.

There is no way this matchup is remotely close. Falco also does better than fox in this matchup, because he actually can't combo him for more than 2 hits.

 

[Dark Hart]

Peach > Marth? What is this I don't even

 

[Strong Badam]

DK's Fair is kind of weak for how slow and scary the move is

it does work, though, and since falco's recovery sucks it usually kills him. fox though, you have to edgeguard. which isn't much of a problem due to Fox's limited options in recovery.

besides all space animals have to do is hold one direction and they'll go off the level at around 40% and if they dont get edgeguarded, its back to square one for dk

if they want to get upair -> nair -> up-b edgeguarded they can. =D

Yes, that's basically what i'm saying. I gave reasons for my peach match up, you could at least give a reason.

Yeah, you're right, sorry about that. I don't really feel that Peach has all too much on DK outside of just being better. DK will just spam Bair and both chars will have trouble killing each other. Dsmash isn't really a problem if you lightshield (which realistically you should be doing with DK, but PKM/Bum got along fine without doing so, I guess they shield shift or just not shield often) and if you do get hit by it you just take like 13% damage. I really don't like the matchup at all, and I won't play it unless it's in friendlies, but I know that the match-up isn't ****. Peach has the advantage but it isn't by a large amount.
IMO.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

hell no. Falco ***** luigi's *******. Edgeguarding, platform combos, laser, lack of air mobility is ridiculous. Luigi has more priority than falco, but he can avoid luigi really easily and laser the balls off him when he dares to go in the air. Also, if luigi tries to WD in, then falco's lasers stop him in his tracks.

There is no way this matchup is remotely close. Falco also does better than fox in this matchup, because he actually can't combo him for more than 2 hits.

Meh, getting in on Falco is tough, but luigi has a way easier time than alot of characters that have similar numbers vs falco.

trading hits is vital in this matchup(except on YS where he dies at 0% from 2 shines)since falco can die from a simple forward throw off the stage(so can weegee).

i dont think this matchup is as bad as fox pretty much because luigi isn't in bad shape til mid percent vs fox and high% vs falco.

killing vertically is broken.

 

[DippnDots]

I think Luigi has a better time against fox and falco than anyone below him on the tier list, excluding pikachu. He has a lot of moves he can pull on spacies, can combo a stock off with one grab, and is really good a tech chasing them. I don't see how you can mess up the tech chase with him at all.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

its basically how well you can space your wavedashes.

which is alot more difficult than "I don't see how you can mess up the tech chase with him at all", honestly.

Luigi has a ton of options vs fox and falco, but not a reliable projectile, throw, recovery, approach(lasers+speed+SHINES=x_x)or cp stage.

did i mention luigi dies at 0% from two falco shines on YS?

 

[BigD!!!]

i know its a page late or so, but dk peach is definitely no worse than 60/40

dk is way faster than peach, uthrow uair works for a guaranteed kill off a grab above like 90%, and bair is bigger than anything peach has

as long as you roll instead of shield like you should with dk, the shield isnt nearly as big a problem in this matchup as it is against fast characters

and strong bad uair nair up b edgeguard is something dumb that might work like 1/10 times but i tried it 2 days ago and died because of it

 

[Blatt Blvd]

pretty sure you cant upair peach after an upthrow at 90% with dk.

 

[Scar]

i believe bigD

 

[x After Dawn x]

I think Luigi has a better time against fox and falco than anyone below him on the tier list, excluding pikachu.

Mario would like to have a word with you. Though yes, I do get what you are saying. Also DK can have his way with Fox sometimes (like on FD).

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

DK uthrow uair combos on almost every character until they die from the top. it works on peach and it works on puff.

 

[BigD!!!]

it doesnt work on samus, and it barely works on puff

but it works on peach relatively easily

my point wasnt the %, so much as that you have a guaranteed kill if you get a grab at high enough %

thats really comforting in this game

 

[Vulcan55]

Mario would like to have a word with you.

You just made me look this up, but...What? I had no Idea Luigi was above Mario on the tier list.

 

[DippnDots]

Thanks Vulc.

its basically how well you can space your wavedashes.

which is alot more difficult than "I don't see how you can mess up the tech chase with him at all", honestly.

Luigi has a ton of options vs fox and falco, but not a reliable projectile, throw, recovery, approach(lasers+speed+SHINES=x_x)or cp stage.

did i mention luigi dies at 0% from two falco shines on YS?

Tech chasing with luigi is more about timing when you wavedash not as much spacing with them. Luigi's recovery against any character isn't reliable, nor does he have an effective profectile against anyone, so bringing up those two points for this specific match up doesn't really matter.

I disagree on his approach, plenty of options are available you just can't be the one approaching all the time.

And his throw ***** spacies, as you can chain grab them or just combo them to 60+% like it's nothing and most times you can get in a fair or dair to finish the combo. Distance wise, yeah, it can't KO, same goes for a lot of characters.

I'm not trying to say luigi is good in this match up, but he definitely has a better time in it than most characters and a better time than most people give him credit for.

I only think DK has a insignificantly worse time against spacies because of his lack of mobility, as he falls victim to a lot of the same tricks spacies use to **** luigi with.


edit: falling edge canceled nair -> up-b ***** spacies

 

[x After Dawn x]

You just made me look this up, but...What? I had no Idea Luigi was above Mario on the tier list.

That's really because Mario had no tourney placings because

a) Doctor Mario is better in almost every way, so people use Doc instead
b) People who don't switch to Doc will probably end up switching to Fox or Luigi down the road