Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]

[SonuvaBeach]

O_O How did i not know about this trail guy?

Well, he isn't super active on the forums - except to **** talk on all of the chicago and mi tourny boards

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KV_Q46AX9Zw

He told me he took $30 off mango in a MM set at SMYM also. He's the midwests anti-mango!

Edit:

lol dude do u play ics? its hella hard to space sheik =\

id ont think they have the advantage anymore like they used to cuz sheiks have known how to avoid grabs for a while now

u cant really easily setup a grab anymore like u can with falco or falcon

Yeah her Auto-cancle's, needles, bair, fair --> jab or tilt don't make it fun. It is a hard matchup for both sides.

 

[ETWIST51294]

Well, he isn't super active on the forums - except to **** talk on all of the chicago and mi tourny boards

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KV_Q46AX9Zw

He told me he took $30 off mango in a MM set at SMYM also. He's the midwests anti-mango!

Thats the match I just watched xD. Taking 30$ from mango, wow. I have a feeling mango's not good against IC because he has trouble with chu also.

Whats with all IC mains wearing the default costume?

 

[JPOBS]

Thats the match I just watched xD. Taking 30$ from mango, wow. I have a feeling mango's not good against IC because he has trouble with chu also.

Whats with all IC mains wearing the default costume?

have you seen the others?

 

[SonuvaBeach]

have you seen the others?

There isn't very many vids recorded of him / he hasn't been that active. But he's pretty **** good when he's on. I'm pretty sure he's been playing quite a bit more often as of late in chicago and surrounding area. There will be more vids I'm sure soon.

 

[JPOBS]

There isn't very many vids recorded of him / he hasn't been that active. But he's pretty **** good when he's on. I'm pretty sure he's been playing quite a bit more often as of late in chicago and surrounding area. There will be more vids I'm sure soon.

i was actually referring to the "why do all ic mains wear defualt" comment

 

[SonuvaBeach]

i was actually referring to the "why do all ic mains wear defualt" comment

Oh...lol. I'm so quick to defend.

at least I actually lol'd for once.

 

[ETWIST51294]

have you seen the others?

Chu and Wobbles wears the default color too

 

[JPOBS]

Chu and Wobbles wears the default color too

ya cuz the rest of the colors are awful

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I used orange and blue until after Genesis. Now I use the default colors because for some reason I feel more confident when using them.

 

[Nintendude]

I use the green and white one but I never seem to get recorded, and when I do, the videos come out ruined and they don't get put up or they are put up anyway but unwatchable.

 

[ETWIST51294]

I love the orange color but it's been awhile since i was a IC main.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I used orange and blue until after Genesis. Now I use the default colors because for some reason I feel more confident when using them.

haha, I told myself that I was better with white marth for like a week and I seemed to play better.

I switched back to black and just went with I tried harder in white.


and orange and blue are my fav IC colors lol. they look the happiest.

 

[x After Dawn x]

lol default is still the best

 

[unknown522]

anything else you guys see wrong with the matchups?

 

['V']

I don't like this chart...

=[

 

[x After Dawn x]

anything else you guys see wrong with the matchups?

yes, almost all of the low tier matchups are exaggerated

 

[Dark Hart]

Mewtwo/Zelda is not an even match-up. If I had to give it numbers (which I hate) I'd say it's between 65/35 and 60/40 in Zelda's Favor. Basically Zelda has the advantage: If she spaces shd fairs/bairs she shouldn't get shield-grabbed. Mewtwo is basically forced to camp until he finds an opening that shouldn't appear. His only real reliable approach is a down-tilt, but please try to get close enough to Zelda to do anything that connects to make more than a 2/3 piece.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

Roy has no aerials at all so Jiggs just sort of wins would be my guess at Jiggs v Roy. Reverse blazer never hits and can be DIed on the stages it does work (Yoshi's might kill anyways, same with stadium but I know FD can be DIed). I'm not that huge of a Roy player, but he's really terrible against floaties. He loses combos and has no aerials to fight them. Jiggs is even worse because she's always in the air, and never really in range of a solid fsmash or Roy's best move (dtilt). Poor guy loses the few things he had going for him.

Again, I only mess around with Roy for fun and such. I'm sure Sethlon/Neo could explain much more in depth why Roy is a bad character.

I've never understood why roy isn't bottom tier yet.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

haha, I told myself that I was better with white marth for like a week and I seemed to play better.

I switched back to black and just went with I tried harder in white.


and orange and blue are my fav IC colors lol. they look the happiest.

I use orange and Blue in singles but the Mint Climbers are my fav for doubles.

IC's costumes suck in melee. >_< gimme the snow climbers anyday.

 

[N64]

Whoops. Meant "worst" where i said "best" in my post about jiggs vs. roy. Hence my confusion. Whoopsies.

Anyways, the marios are real tough for pika. Chaingrab hurts, and mario can fsmash or usmash (depending on where you DI) you at the end of it (like 100% if you don't make it to an edge, and you die to the smash if you don't). Doc can either dsmash a little earlier, or rack up like 20% more and dthrow->fair when he gets his next grab. And grabbing pika isn't all that hard for him. Pika has to be weary whenever he's on the ground, as jab leads to grab whether it's shielded or not. On the ground, jab and dsmash are both pretty safe options for the marios, as pika gets enough shieldstun and pushback from each that he can't punish either oos. Approaching from the air, both marios' utilt beats everything pika has if timed well. He can also dashdance->punish approaches (but almost everyone can do that, its just the marios punish with grabs/dsmashes usually and those kill pika).

Even when both chars are in the air, pika has some difficulty. Marios' uair is preeetty safe. His nair has decent priority too (and doc's hurts T-T) it's just laggy. Fair also hurts but it's pretty easy to avoid unless you're in stun from dthrow or something.

Pika does have the advantage while he's below the marios, as his uair beats everything they have. But then, you're mostly just juggling them with uair and trying to set up a spike near the edge. So 3% at a time as you try to position. And as long as he saves his jump until you can't follow up, he'll often be able to recover.

There's more minor stuff, but this is the meat of the match. At least vs. spacies pika can punish the crap out of them if he catches them. Pika's punish options vs. marios are fewer and more situational.

 

[JPOBS]

ya i also hate the fact that all the low tier matchups vs high tiers are **** just because they are low tier.

some low tiers have fairly good matchups vs certain high tiers and i dont think its fair to say "oh this character is low tier so everyone above him must have an advantage" its just not true.

but i dont play any low tiers at that "uber" so meh.

 

[N64]

Well, I can't speak for all low tiers, but most often low tiers vs high tiers is pretty ****. I think it's important that we distinguish any matchups that the low tier actually does well in (i.e. pika vs falcon, ylink vs peach, etc.) but really there aren't that many of those.

I think there's truth to a lot of the low tier matchups being misrepresented (i.e. pikachu doesn't really **** pichu that hard) but honestly there isn't much experience on these to begin with so it's entirely understandable.

 

[unknown522]

yes, almost all of the low tier matchups are exaggerated

explain.

Mewtwo/Zelda is not an even match-up. If I had to give it numbers (which I hate) I'd say it's between 65/35 and 60/40 in Zelda's Favor. Basically Zelda has the advantage: If she spaces shd fairs/bairs she shouldn't get shield-grabbed. Mewtwo is basically forced to camp until he finds an opening that shouldn't appear. His only real reliable approach is a down-tilt, but please try to get close enough to Zelda to do anything that connects to make more than a 2/3 piece.

thanks. I have no knowledge of that matchup. I thought it would be in M2's favor though.

I've never understood why roy isn't bottom tier yet.

Me either.

Whoops. Meant "worst" where i said "best" in my post about jiggs vs. roy. Hence my confusion. Whoopsies.

Anyways, the marios are real tough for pika. Chaingrab hurts, and mario can fsmash or usmash (depending on where you DI) you at the end of it (like 100% if you don't make it to an edge, and you die to the smash if you don't). Doc can either dsmash a little earlier, or rack up like 20% more and dthrow->fair when he gets his next grab. And grabbing pika isn't all that hard for him. Pika has to be weary whenever he's on the ground, as jab leads to grab whether it's shielded or not. On the ground, jab and dsmash are both pretty safe options for the marios, as pika gets enough shieldstun and pushback from each that he can't punish either oos. Approaching from the air, both marios' utilt beats everything pika has if timed well. He can also dashdance->punish approaches (but almost everyone can do that, its just the marios punish with grabs/dsmashes usually and those kill pika).

Even when both chars are in the air, pika has some difficulty. Marios' uair is preeetty safe. His nair has decent priority too (and doc's hurts T-T) it's just laggy. Fair also hurts but it's pretty easy to avoid unless you're in stun from dthrow or something.

Pika does have the advantage while he's below the marios, as his uair beats everything they have. But then, you're mostly just juggling them with uair and trying to set up a spike near the edge. So 3% at a time as you try to position. And as long as he saves his jump until you can't follow up, he'll often be able to recover.

There's more minor stuff, but this is the meat of the match. At least vs. spacies pika can punish the crap out of them if he catches them. Pika's punish options vs. marios are fewer and more situational.

So true. Thanks a lot.

Also, I didn't know that mario and doc could CG pika to 100%. I thought it stopped around 70%. guess not.

ya i also hate the fact that all the low tier matchups vs high tiers are **** just because they are low tier.

some low tiers have fairly good matchups vs certain high tiers and i dont think its fair to say "oh this character is low tier so everyone above him must have an advantage" its just not true.

but i dont play any low tiers at that "uber" so meh.

We never said that. Don't give us false statements.

Who do you think specifically?

Well, I can't speak for all low tiers, but most often low tiers vs high tiers is pretty ****. I think it's important that we distinguish any matchups that the low tier actually does well in (i.e. pika vs falcon, ylink vs peach, etc.) but really there aren't that many of those.

I think there's truth to a lot of the low tier matchups being misrepresented (i.e. pikachu doesn't really **** pichu that hard) but honestly there isn't much experience on these to begin with so it's entirely understandable.

I think some low tiers do well vs high tiers, but not many. Low tiers usually have 1 or 2 good things about them, that are easy to get around for the high tiers. They usually have something to gay low tiers with as well.

I personally think pika vs pichu is ****. It's hard to land a hit and pichu dies from everything. Pichu's awesome tech roll sets pika for d-throw -> tech chase u-smash at like 50% for a kill. Pichu's n-air has more priority, I'll give him that, but other than that, they chip damage at each other, but pika hits harder and can land his kill moves a lot easier.

 

[JPOBS]

We never said that. Don't give us false statements.

Who do you think specifically?

you're right i was wrong for making it seem that you guys did specifically say that, i apologize. I was just using it as a general summerization of what i gathered from reading the numbers. my bad.

and ya like i said i dont play low tiers good enough to be the authority on any of them. But i just cant help but think when Taj's mewtwo can step up and wreck the best foxs/falco in the world, the matchup has got to be a little better than 10 -90.

appeals to authority ftl

 

[unknown522]

I understand and maybe you're right.

 

[Dark Hart]

thanks. I have no knowledge of that matchup. I thought it would be in M2's favor though.

It's cool. If you or anyone need more explaining on the match-up I can bust something out later tonight.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

Zelda will camp fairs/bairs that entire match, keeping Mewtwo out and Mewtwo will camp shadowballs the whole time, which are neutralized by zelda's kicks. Granted, Mewtwo can stand far away and just charge a decently sized shadowball and Zelda can't do much about it. Keep in mind that Zelda has Naryu's Love to reflect the shadowball but if Mewtwo just psuedo approaches to either bait the Fair (and Shadow ball) or bait the Naryu( to get the grab), he'll win out. Also, if MEwtwo gets Zelda in the air(ie, above shorthop height), she's in for a world of hurt.


I honestly think it's SLIGHTLY in Mewtwo's favor but keep in mind that I don't play EITHER character and I'm pretty much just trying to run the match-up through in my head. THIS IS ALL THEORY. This type of matchup will be more about percentage leads than anything and in my eyes, Mewtwo has slightly more options against Zelda than she does against him.

Either way, this seems like it could possibly be the most unfun match-up in Melee. I feel sorry for anyone who has gone through this.

 

[JPOBS]

Either way, this seems like it could possibly be the most unfun match-up in Melee. I feel sorry for anyone who has gone through this.

jigglypuff dittos on brinstar sais hi!

 

[RaynEX]

you're right i was wrong for making it seem that you guys did specifically say that, i apologize. I was just using it as a general summerization of what i gathered from reading the numbers. my bad.

and ya like i said i dont play low tiers good enough to be the authority on any of them. But i just cant help but think when Taj's mewtwo can step up and wreck the best foxs/falco in the world, the matchup has got to be a little better than 10 -90.

appeals to authority ftl

Using top level low tier players as an example for what they can do isn't a solid argument. There is one Mewtwo in the entire smash community who even has half a chance of beating a decent high tier. Mind you, the high tiers he does beat are all played by the same person - Forward. They play together all the time, so I don't think Taj's Mewtwo really counts. If one random European player ***** some people with Pichu, I'd suspect its more because he grossly outplays them, than because Pichu has good match-ups.

Zelda will camp fairs/bairs that entire match, keeping Mewtwo out and Mewtwo will camp shadowballs the whole time, which are neutralized by zelda's kicks. Granted, Mewtwo can stand far away and just charge a decently sized shadowball and Zelda can't do much about it. Keep in mind that Zelda has Naryu's Love to reflect the shadowball but if Mewtwo just psuedo approaches to either bait the Fair (and Shadow ball) or bait the Naryu( to get the grab), he'll win out. Also, if MEwtwo gets Zelda in the air(ie, above shorthop height), she's in for a world of hurt.


I honestly think it's SLIGHTLY in Mewtwo's favor but keep in mind that I don't play EITHER character and I'm pretty much just trying to run the match-up through in my head. THIS IS ALL THEORY. This type of matchup will be more about percentage leads than anything and in my eyes, Mewtwo has slightly more options against Zelda than she does against him.

Either way, this seems like it could possibly be the most unfun match-up in Melee. I feel sorry for anyone who has gone through this.

Unknown and I were talking about this and he came up with some good points. Spacing is a two way street. Mewtwo is alot more mobile than Zelda is, and getting in isn't as difficult for Mewtwo as you may think. If he wavedashes in with shield and forces Zelda to misspace her Fair/Bair and land the weak hit, he can punish out of shield. Up close, he can CC literally anything she has and dtilt. Edge-guarding is in Mewtwo's favour as well. They both recover well but Mewtwo's is assloads faster overall.

 

[JPOBS]

Using top level low tier players as an example for what they can do isn't a solid argument. There is one Mewtwo in the entire smash community who even has half a chance of beating a decent high tier. Mind you, the high tiers he does beat are all played by the same person - Forward. They play together all the time, so I don't think Taj's Mewtwo really counts. If one random European player ***** some people with Pichu, I'd suspect its more because he grossly outplays them, than because Pichu has good match-ups.

ya i know, thats why i said "appeals to authority ftl".

 

[N64]

I think some low tiers do well vs high tiers, but not many. Low tiers usually have 1 or 2 good things about them, that are easy to get around for the high tiers. They usually have something to gay low tiers with as well.

i agree

I personally think pika vs pichu is ****. It's hard to land a hit and pichu dies from everything. Pichu's awesome tech roll sets pika for d-throw -> tech chase u-smash at like 50% for a kill. Pichu's n-air has more priority, I'll give him that, but other than that, they chip damage at each other, but pika hits harder and can land his kill moves a lot easier.

Pika definately has the advantage, but i don't see a 90-10 advantage in it. Pichu still can't really be gimped well, his aerial game isn't much worse than pikas (his uair is noticably worse but the rest isn't that worse). He's light and relatively difficult for pika to combo outside of techchasing. His aerials and usmash, though kinda hard to set up, still kill pika fairly early too. It's as you said, they chip away at eachother and pika kills pichu a little earlier but not 90-10 earlier. Up for debate though.

To me in general it seems like some of the low tier vs. low tier matchups are a little exaggerated in the favor of the higher-ranked low tier.

 

[RaynEX]

ya i know, thats why i said "appeals to authority ftl".

I'm so blind. My bad man. haha

To me in general it seems like some of the low tier vs. low tier matchups are a little exaggerated in the favor of the higher-ranked low tier.

I concur.

 

[Dark Hart]

Either way, this seems like it could possibly be the most unfun match-up in Melee. I feel sorry for anyone who has gone through this.

lol I actually enjoy it. And I play Alex twice at your low tier.

 

[unknown522]

It's cool. If you or anyone need more explaining on the match-up I can bust something out later tonight.

*nod*

i agree



Pika definately has the advantage, but i don't see a 90-10 advantage in it. Pichu still can't really be gimped well, his aerial game isn't much worse than pikas (his uair is noticably worse but the rest isn't that worse). He's light and relatively difficult for pika to combo outside of techchasing. His aerials and usmash, though kinda hard to set up, still kill pika fairly early too. It's as you said, they chip away at eachother and pika kills pichu a little earlier but not 90-10 earlier. Up for debate though.

To me in general it seems like some of the low tier vs. low tier matchups are a little exaggerated in the favor of the higher-ranked low tier.

I understand.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Mewtwo/Zelda is not an even match-up. If I had to give it numbers (which I hate) I'd say it's between 65/35 and 60/40 in Zelda's Favor. Basically Zelda has the advantage: If she spaces shd fairs/bairs she shouldn't get shield-grabbed. Mewtwo is basically forced to camp until he finds an opening that shouldn't appear. His only real reliable approach is a down-tilt, but please try to get close enough to Zelda to do anything that connects to make more than a 2/3 piece.

I dont particularly have trouble with this matchup.

but really there isnt too much m2 has goin. pretty much I have to fake an approach and throw a shadowball or something.

60-40 seems pretty good. Not **** but clear enough that zelda has control of her space and its hard to change that.

 

[1048576]

I 4th Pichu, and I feel like Pikachu is my second worst matchup after Ice Climbers. Pikachu's primary weakness, his lack of range, turns into a strength. He can't gimp, but he can land hits easily now that he has the range advantage. It's not about chipping damage at each other. It's about Pichu finding a way in. Nair is really his only 'out of range' move. And although Pichu and Pikachu may have similar looking upsmashes to those that don't play them often, it's really not even close in terms of utility. Pichu's up-smash is much weaker, and the hitbox doesn't extend very far in front of him. Thunderflip is also a Pikachu exclusive when it comes to killing.

I've beaten Sheiks that wrecked me in our high-tier vs. high tier battles, but I have never beaten the Pika I play with who I consistently thrash when we both play good characters.

 

[C 3]

and at 0% u can knee > grab > down throw > knee >

(if they d.i down) grab > down throw > knee
(if they d.i up ) > up air > (if they have super messed d.i) knee? but dont think there enough stun on the up air
(if they d.i towards) >knee > knee ? (if ur man enough go for the triple knee, the jiggs needs super d.i tho)

HAHAHAHAHA oh wait.... u were serious?

 

[KirbyKaze]

I 4th Pichu, and I feel like Pikachu is my second worst matchup after Ice Climbers. Pikachu's primary weakness, his lack of range, turns into a strength. He can't gimp, but he can land hits easily now that he has the range advantage. It's not about chipping damage at each other. It's about Pichu finding a way in. Nair is really his only 'out of range' move. And although Pichu and Pikachu may have similar looking upsmashes to those that don't play them often, it's really not even close in terms of utility. Pichu's up-smash is much weaker, and the hitbox doesn't extend very far in front of him. Thunderflip is also a Pikachu exclusive when it comes to killing.

I've beaten Sheiks that wrecked me in our high-tier vs. high tier battles, but I have never beaten the Pika I play with who I consistently thrash when we both play good characters.

I can see what you mean, but pretty much every character has range advantage on Pichu. He has to fight to get in on like, everyone. Pikachu is not exception here.

 

[unknown522]

This is C 3 posting and my thoughts on the chart for DK:

DK sheik is 7-3 mainly because of constantly being out prioritized, easy kills for sheik off stage and it's hard to get in on her with so many moves that are hard to punish and have little to no lag. Tech chasing is easy picking for sheik and that leads to high %/being off stage.

DK fox is 65-35 if not worse mainly because of shine. Yes, DK can 0-death fox on FD, but against good foxes, good luck getting the grab. No DK out there can perfectly 0-death from one grab, so trying to get multiple grabs on fox is really tough. Not to mention the usual Usmash Uair crap.

DK falco 65-35? HAHAHAH no. More like 80-20 or at most 75-25. The laser basically punishes DK's existence. Beats his moves, turns him around when trying to Bair space, stops his movement on and off stage and Dair plows through his shield which leads to 40% combos. Not to mention trades with his UpB (which means he's dead off stage).

Dk peach is 70-30 maily because peach can **** his "shield" with her aerials and especially her Dsmash. Well spaced Fairs can eat his Bair and when he's off stage he's either dead for sure or takes a poop load of damage trying to come back.

 

[JPOBS]

Yes, DK can 0-death fox on FD, but against good foxes, good luck getting the grab. No DK out there can perfectly 0-death from one grab, so trying to get multiple grabs on fox is really tough.

just curious as to what exactly this means?

is it just a simple misphrasing? because DK can 0-death fox on fd if he got a grab.

or are you just saying that its gonna be tough to get enough to win sets?