Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]

[ArcNatural]

How is ICs-Fox worse than Purin-Fox?

It's worse by a whole 5 points but I'll point them out.

1. Jigg's Rest and edgegaurds > Icies as your CG can be lost if Nana Dies.

2. Jigg's does better on most CPs, although ICies don't do too bad on Corneria. But that being said Jiggs has Mute and Brinstar, ICies don't really have stages with definite advantages to them for the matchup (maybe FD?).

 

[Strong Badam]

FD is typically the best IC stage, though Dreamland works well as well (I'm not sure about other stages but I have seen Chu cp to FD quite a lot in the past). Generally long boundaries are good because they don't hinder IC's killing ability (since they just grab -> wobble -> d/fsmash anyway) while enhancing their survivability. Platforms deteriorate their grab game because it's more difficult to grab an opponent with Nana being near to you when they're platform camping.

ICs vs. Fox is definitely a more difficult matchup than Jiggs vs. Fox. Shine is just too good.

 

[KevinM]

deal with it KevinM

A great logical answer.

 

[Nintendude]

Kirby, Shiek isn't even Bowsers worst matchup, on paper it should be, but its not.

This is why a matchup chart is purely impossible and sorta dumb.

I don't mean to put you guys down, but whats the point of having a matchup chart for a game as complex as smash.

Where do you draw the line on what stage is most neutral to determine your matchup listings.

There are far to many variables and not enough knowledge.

What do you think about the 5 categories method? (read the last 3 pages or so)

 

[Divinokage]

Kirby, Shiek isn't even Bowsers worst matchup, on paper it should be, but its not.

This is why a matchup chart is purely impossible and sorta dumb.

I don't mean to put you guys down, but whats the point of having a matchup chart for a game as complex as smash.

Where do you draw the line on what stage is most neutral to determine your matchup listings.

There are far to many variables and not enough knowledge.

It's to have something to talk about in the present time of smash because things change all the time and it's also fun to talk about it.

 

[unknown522]

It's to have something to talk about in the present time of smash because things change all the time and it's also fun to talk about it.

That's true. It really has been fun debating about matchups.

People also get to learn.

 

[KevinM]

Or people could learn the matchups by bettering themselves and actually playing them.

I believe a majority of the time a matchup chart hurts a players understanding of the game a lot more then it helps.

 

[unknown522]

How is ICs-Fox worse than Purin-Fox?

The shine is incredibly stupid vs ICs. Nana gets gimped really easily from the shine and the also both get killed easily by fox's up moves. Fox's awesome speed and ability to platform camp the ICs is really troublesome for them.

Puff vs ICs, they have the ability to hit puff with crappy but disjointed hitboxes. They can also get decent mid damage on her. Puff also can have a harder time killing ICs because of her lower killing power compared to fox and her not being as fast as fox in the air or on the ground. ICs are faster than puff while they're on the ground as well.

Or people could learn the matchups by bettering themselves and actually playing them.

I believe a majority of the time a matchup chart hurts a players understanding of the game a lot more then it helps.

I understand. I dunno about majority of the time, but it could happen.

 

[Divinokage]

Or people could learn the matchups by bettering themselves and actually playing them.

I believe a majority of the time a matchup chart hurts a players understanding of the game a lot more then it helps.

Well, not everyone is cut out to be a top player which is why there will always be noobs or elites.

 

[x After Dawn x]

What are you talking about?

I remember a tier list from 2003/2004 and it was basically sheik marth fox peach in top with falco, then they eventually dropped falco to high.

Marth has always been top tier for the past.. 5 years at least.


Also, don't talk about ken if you don't know anything about him. The part where you say he never used fox is BS, I raged.

As somebody else already pointed out, the 06 list had Fox and Falco in top, Marth was only in high.

And I'm not saying Ken never used Fox, but I'm saying it was little compared to the amount of times he used Marth in major tournaments. If I said "never", then clearly it was an exaggeration as I even gave two instances where he had used Fox.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

a match-up chart shows what the matchups are, but doesn't give any information on WHY they are like that. i know a lot of people that say "sheik ***** marth" but they don't play sheik or marth and have no idea how sheik wins the match-up.

i think people individually could have match-up charts but i think its a little too vague to generalize all player's play styles. azen doesn't play like m2k, jman doesn't play like lucky. each style has kinda different match ups.

 

[KirbyKaze]

We're assuming everyone plays as gay as possible.

KevinM, you're probably right; I know nothing of Bowser beyond Up+B, koopa claw, Gimpyfish combo, and Fair/F-tilt. But I really do think that Sheik vs Bowser on non-Yoshi's Story is pretty unwinnable at high level.

Though it's a poor argument, I never hear of good Bowsers beating good Sheiks. And when I do, it's either on Yoshi's Story, the Sheik didn't chain grab, the Sheik SDed, or because the Bowser used an alternate.

On paper it looks awful. In practice it looks slightly less bad but still unwinnable. I don't know if your experiences differ; I'd be curious to hear if there have been times when Bowser's trumped a high level Sheik.

 

[Nintendude]

i think people individually could have match-up charts but i think its a little too vague to generalize all player's play styles. azen doesn't play like m2k, jman doesn't play like lucky. each style has kinda different match ups.

Yep, perfect reason to do away with ratios.

 

[worldjem7]

You also shouldn't be taking this as an attack.

You say I shouldn't be taking this as an attack, yet you insist on trying to push your format onto this chart.

Your method has been declined, again. Please don't bring it up again.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i also want to point out that a lot of low tier match ups aren't necessarily REALLY bad. low tiers are there because they have a lot of bad match ups, not because all the match ups are really bad.

 

[Miggz]

Yeah I try not to base "everything" on the tier list. But its still worth playing and getting basic understanding why the list is the way it is.

 

[x After Dawn x]

i also want to point out that a lot of low tier match ups aren't necessarily REALLY bad. low tiers are there because they have a lot of bad match ups, not because all the match ups are really bad.

I've been saying the same thing ever since I looked at this list lol

 

[N64]

So i glanced through the latest updates and I have a couple questions/comments.

Pika vs. ICs is listed as 55-45 in IC's favor. This seems pretty off to me. ICs **** pika. Their jab leads to grab as long as they hit either you or your shield, and grab leads to chainthrow. Single ICs can chainthrow pika, no nana necessary. If they don't feel like chainthrowing, just jab->dsmash. Also pika's semi-bad shield gets stabbed fairly often especially if there's 2 ICs hitting it with aerials/smashes. IC's aerials aren't spectacular, but they can make it hard for pika to approach from the air as nothing pika has really beats their aerials if they space right. Pika can seperate ICs relatively easily (compared to most other chars) and sometimes gimp nana out of it, but single ICs is still a sizable threat to pika, as grab still leads chainthrow up to death percentage on him. It's honestly imo a 70-30 matchup or higher in favor of ICs.

Second, jiggs' best matchup in lowtier is roy? Someone explain how roy does in this matchup because I don't know it well other than reverse-blazer-is-funny-but-only-works-on-yoshis.

 

[Skler]

Roy has no aerials at all so Jiggs just sort of wins would be my guess at Jiggs v Roy. Reverse blazer never hits and can be DIed on the stages it does work (Yoshi's might kill anyways, same with stadium but I know FD can be DIed). I'm not that huge of a Roy player, but he's really terrible against floaties. He loses combos and has no aerials to fight them. Jiggs is even worse because she's always in the air, and never really in range of a solid fsmash or Roy's best move (dtilt). Poor guy loses the few things he had going for him.

Again, I only mess around with Roy for fun and such. I'm sure Sethlon/Neo could explain much more in depth why Roy is a bad character.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I second N64 on ICs v. Pika.

 

[Plairnkk]

Yeah IC's **** pika senseless. They have the same silly cg's on pika they have on Sheik, yet pika is a far worse character and considering Sheik already gets pooed on pretty bad by IC, pika can't be even close to 55 45 XD

 

[ETWIST51294]

Yeah IC's **** pika senseless. They have the same silly cg's on pika they have on Sheik, yet pika is a far worse character and considering Sheik already gets pooed on pretty bad by IC, pika can't be even close to 55 45 XD

Plank, how gay is your shiek? I'm getting pretty good so I'm probably going to play you soon.

 

[Plairnkk]

It's pretty gay, but I need to practice more. I am not quite back to where I was yet.

 

[Strong Badam]

Pika vs. ICs is listed as 55-45 in IC's favor. This seems pretty off to me. ICs **** pika. Their jab leads to grab as long as they hit either you or your shield, and grab leads to chainthrow wobble -> death. Single ICs can chainthrow pika, no nana necessary. If they don't feel like chainthrowing wobbling, just jab->dsmash

I revised this a bit :O

 

[KirbyKaze]

The purpose of cging Strong_Bad fyi is so they don't need a synched Nana. Normally people can split them, mash during the grab to escape any attempt and setting up a wobble, and then force Popo to do a combo by himself. But because solo Popo can chain grab, he doesn't need to do that at all :D

Whereas vs Puff, Fox, Falco, Falcon, Peach, Marth, and many, many other matchups. they actually need a synched nana to do silly IC death combo stuff.

So the difference does matter.

 

[Strong Badam]

when he said cg i assumed he meant dthrow dair cg. i didn't edit/include the parts where he mentioned popo's solo cg.

 

[KirbyKaze]

oh okies

misreading ftl

 

[ETWIST51294]

It's pretty gay, but I need to practice more. I am not quite back to where I was yet.

Darn. I'm gonna get tech chased all day

 

[N64]

Well, i actually intended to mean chainthrow regardless. The only time ICs really needs to wobble pika is if they get the grab near an edge at low-percent, as pika can DI off the edge and get out (at higher percents near the edge he still can DI far enough to avoid regrab, but can be dsmashed and dies). Or if they're more confident with wobbling timing than regrab timing *shrug*.

Sorry for any confusion. ICs make pika cry.

Edit: Also, the marios do better against pika than spacies do :o.

 

[Stratocaster]

This thread would actually be really amazing if all the top and higher tier match-ups had links explaining why that match-up is as it is. No link is really needed for Bowser vs. Sheik, but understanding the match-up of Falcon vs Puff or Shiek vs Falco, etc. would be awesome because there are so many variables to consider in the top tiers a number doesn't really do justice to explaining their match-ups

 

[unknown522]

So i glanced through the latest updates and I have a couple questions/comments.

Pika vs. ICs is listed as 55-45 in IC's favor. This seems pretty off to me. ICs **** pika. Their jab leads to grab as long as they hit either you or your shield, and grab leads to chainthrow. Single ICs can chainthrow pika, no nana necessary. If they don't feel like chainthrowing, just jab->dsmash. Also pika's semi-bad shield gets stabbed fairly often especially if there's 2 ICs hitting it with aerials/smashes. IC's aerials aren't spectacular, but they can make it hard for pika to approach from the air as nothing pika has really beats their aerials if they space right. Pika can seperate ICs relatively easily (compared to most other chars) and sometimes gimp nana out of it, but single ICs is still a sizable threat to pika, as grab still leads chainthrow up to death percentage on him. It's honestly imo a 70-30 matchup or higher in favor of ICs.

Second, jiggs' best matchup in lowtier is roy? Someone explain how roy does in this matchup because I don't know it well other than reverse-blazer-is-funny-but-only-works-on-yoshis.

According to the chart, jigg's worst matchup in low tier is roy. I wanted to put it as 85-15, but oh well.

I wanted to also puf pika v ICs as 65-35, but stuff.

Roy has no aerials at all so Jiggs just sort of wins would be my guess at Jiggs v Roy. Reverse blazer never hits and can be DIed on the stages it does work (Yoshi's might kill anyways, same with stadium but I know FD can be DIed). I'm not that huge of a Roy player, but he's really terrible against floaties. He loses combos and has no aerials to fight them. Jiggs is even worse because she's always in the air, and never really in range of a solid fsmash or Roy's best move (dtilt). Poor guy loses the few things he had going for him.

Again, I only mess around with Roy for fun and such. I'm sure Sethlon/Neo could explain much more in depth why Roy is a bad character.

Roy can't combo puff at all. He has really crap damage output and gets combo'd pretty hard. Roy's up-b is impossible to hit on a good puff. If you miss the attempt, you lose a stock. CC is gay. Roy also gets gimped / edgegaurded easily. He also can't land any kill moves, so jiggs living to like 200% on average (unless you get up-b'd on some stages) is really bad.

Also, b-air is gay.

I second N64 on ICs v. Pika.

Yeah IC's **** pika senseless. They have the same silly cg's on pika they have on Sheik, yet pika is a far worse character and considering Sheik already gets pooed on pretty bad by IC, pika can't be even close to 55 45 XD

Agreed.


Edit:

Edit: Also, the marios do better against pika than spacies do :o.

How?

 

[Dark Hart]

This thread would actually be really amazing if all the top and higher tier match-ups had links explaining why that match-up is as it is. No link is really needed for Bowser vs. Sheik, but understanding the match-up of Falcon vs Puff or Shiek vs Falco, etc. would be awesome because there are so many variables to consider in the top tiers a number doesn't really do justice to explaining their match-ups

I agree, but there should be something like that for every match-up as hard as that would be.

 

[KAOSTAR]

It's to have something to talk about in the present time of smash because things change all the time and it's also fun to talk about it.

Yea, I like to look at it as, if ppl are talking about it then ppl are still playing and **** brawl lol.

 

[choknater]

sigh ic's vs sheik seems even to me

hard to deal with shffl fairs over and over

 

[ETWIST51294]

sigh ic's vs sheik seems even to me

hard to deal with shffl fairs over and over

I dunno. A downsmash chaingrab? That sounds pretty ******** to me. Plus plank knows what he's talking about cause he plays one of the two good IC players(those being Chu and wobbles).

 

[x After Dawn x]

sigh ic's vs sheik seems even to me

hard to deal with shffl fairs over and over

lrn 2 space

 

[Nintendude]

Down-smash chaingrab is pretty pointless. It's just a solo Popo chaingrab only you have Nana do down-smashes to build up the damage quickly, but if you are in the position to do that you might as well just wobble >_>

 

[SonuvaBeach]

I dunno. A downsmash chaingrab? That sounds pretty ******** to me. Plus plank knows what he's talking about cause he plays one of the three good IC players(those being Chu, Wobbles and trail).

Edited for accuracy.

IC's vs Sheik is even unless you let them get grabs. If they get more then 4 grabs it is over. Grab = stock. There isn't a big margin of error. Every short hop I missed trail would get under and upair me or something. You really gotta be on your game...but you do for every hard matchup. It is just IC's punish harder than anyone else.

 

[choknater]

lrn 2 space

lol dude do u play ics? its hella hard to space sheik =\

id ont think they have the advantage anymore like they used to cuz sheiks have known how to avoid grabs for a while now

u cant really easily setup a grab anymore like u can with falco or falcon

 

[ETWIST51294]

Edited for accuracy.

IC's vs Sheik is even unless you let them get grabs. If they get more then 4 grabs it is over. Grab = stock. There isn't a big margin of error. Every short hop I missed trail would get under and upair me or something. You really gotta be on your game...but you do for every hard matchup. It is just IC's punish harder than anyone else.

O_O How did i not know about this trail guy?