Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]

[otg]

^ mario's f-smash / u-smash are awesome ways to kill jiggs. u-smash is invincible at his head and f-samsh has more range than puff.

They're good in their own ways.

Will post other reasons later.

Fsmash having more range is a plus, but it doesn't change the fact that it has much less KO power overall then dthrow-> fair. They both also have invincibility at the head from frames 9 to 11, and if we want to argue here, Doc's usmash is technically stronger I believe, but it can't KO unless the opponent is already airborne, while Mario's will work if they are already on the ground.

 

[unknown522]

^ I know. It's just that no one uses it.

F-smash is easier to land, than a grab on jiggs anyways, since they will run away from you most of the time.

Play hungrybox with doc. It's a *****.

 

[otg]

^ I know. It's just that no one uses it.

F-smash is easier to land, than a grab on jiggs anyways, since they will run away from you most of the time.

Play hungrybox with doc. It's a *****.

I dont know if Fsmash is easier to land, it needs to be sweetspotted in the first place to do anything... in the end I guess both options have their flaws. And no I haven't fought hbox, but I've played against Vanz jigglypuff a decent amount. He's a much better player then me and tends to **** me blindly with one hand tied behind his back with Peach, but when he goes Jiggs we go very evenish. Don't give me that "he doesn't know how to deal with Doc" BS either, our first few matches I ***** the crap out of him and then he caught onto my bs and we started going even.

 

[KirbyKaze]

How do you Docs grab Puff, exactly?

 

[otg]

Same way he grabs everyone else.... Prayer.

no but seriously, She has to land at some point. I mean, I could throw that question out about any character, and it would have the same weight. I mean really if you think about it, Marth should NEVER grab a fast enough Fox right? So that should be taking into the matchup discussion right? Oop, what do you know, Fox ***** Marth.

 

[unknown522]

I dont know if Fsmash is easier to land, it needs to be sweetspotted in the first place to do anything... in the end I guess both options have their flaws. And no I haven't fought hbox, but I've played against Vanz jigglypuff a decent amount. He's a much better player then me and tends to **** me blindly with one hand tied behind his back with Peach, but when he goes Jiggs we go very evenish. Don't give me that "he doesn't know how to deal with Doc" BS either, our first few matches I ***** the crap out of him and then he caught onto my bs and we started going even.

I consistently ***** vanz's puff / sheik / peach (he played sheik first 5, then peach twice, then mostly puff after, like 10+ games) at ROM with both fox and doc.

I was doc vs puff and was fox vs sheik

He said he was playing bad though, but I had a really crappy controller.

Same way he grabs everyone else.... Prayer.

no but seriously, She has to land at some point. I mean, I could throw that question out about any character, and it would have the same weight. I mean really if you think about it, Marth should NEVER grab a fast enough Fox right? So that should be taking into the matchup discussion right? Oop, what do you know, Fox ***** Marth.

This is true, she does have to land at some point, which you can hopefully take advantage of. It is still hard to land a grab though.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Same way he grabs everyone else.... Prayer.

no but seriously, She has to land at some point. I mean, I could throw that question out about any character, and it would have the same weight. I mean really if you think about it, Marth should NEVER grab a fast enough Fox right? So that should be taking into the matchup discussion right? Oop, what do you know, Fox ***** Marth.

If she lands on a platform, or edgecancels off a platform, barring pills, she's largely safe.

If she lands on the edge, barring pills, she's largely safe. Heck, even with pills she can just Bair through them indestructibly and then regrab the edge when it wears off. She doesn't get ahead or anything, but she doesn't fall behind either.

Your comparison is bad because Marth can grab Fox. He's got a lot of tools to do so, made possible by a combination of his own ridiculous moves, ridiculous range, comparable ground speed (to Fox), and Fox's fall speed. If you think about it, Marth doesn't necessarily need to grab in the abstract; he can lead in to it with other stuff, even on a super technical, super smart Fox.

Doc does not have these things against Puff.

edit: Unless, of course, you're referring to TAS perfect play, which I sincerely hope you're not >___>

 

[otg]

The key thing I noticed in your analysis was "barring pills"... thats a pretty big thing to Bar, especially since it stops her from ledge camping. I'm not talking about frame perfect play, because if that was the case than give Fox 100-0 matchups vs. everyone, GG.

Marth can grab Fox just as much as Doc can grab Jiggs, just as much anyone can grab anyone. If Fox doesn't miss his Lcancels, platform/laser camps, and spaces right, it doesn't matter how good Marth's tools are, he's not going to get grabs, or atleast he's not going to get a lot of them.
/ends stupid theoretical bull**** here

In the end, these things are waaaay to situational to claim them as black and white like "marth CAN get grabs" but "Doc CAN'T get grabs" because Marth's got a bigger ****. I guess it really depends on how far into matchup theory you want to get involved in. As for lead ins to grabs from Doc; FH or SH Dair-> grab, even something like FH dair-> falling uair -> grab at lower %'s, bair -> grab .... I mean there are a billion situational things that could happen in any matchup that allow grabs.

I dunno, I'm arguing to a wall here because i know you'll retort with "oh jiggs can just do this that and the other thing, and Doc **** out of luck"... I guess I just don't assume this game is full of absolutes, everything is situational.

 

[Cosmo!]

otg should play hungrybox imo

 

[KirbyKaze]

What I notice you omit from your analysis of Marth vs Fox with your summary of camping is that Fox can feasibly be juggled and comboed to death, even if he does camp platforms, whereas Doc does... 8% off a pill to Jigglypuff? Maybe 20% from a Dair --> Uair if the Puff doesn't DI out of the Dair?

The fact that you say Doc can grab just as much as "anyone can grab anyone" is completely false, and (imo) largely irrelevant.

I already addressed Doc's pills are good for making Puff not able to camp stationary on the edge, which is actually pretty awesome. It is awesome that you can make her do punishable stuff and sneak in aerials. Unfortunately, you can't usually get your killing aerial (Fair) this way.

You're correct that I'm wrong to argue absolutes, but I do believe that most of the traditional means to get grabs aren't widely available on Jiggs, especially at the percents you need them. An example would be, purely by virtue of being Jigglypuff, Doc cannot knock her over and tech chase a grab like he would vs Fox (or pretty much any other non-floaty character). Marth could do this to Fox. Heck, Doc could do this to Fox.

I should clarify that I'm not arguing Doc's inability to grind Puff to KO percent; I think he can do that. What I am curious about is how he lands his KO setup at his desired percent range.

You say he can grab her from Uairs at low percent and has decent setups off Bair. I can fully agree with these, but I'm also interested in how he leads in at high percent, when his Uair knocks her too far away without enough stun to link Fair, and when his Bairs don't combo into grab on bad DI.

For clarity, I don't think the matchup is impossible, which is probably what you think I believe, but rather I just don't understand the significance of some of the advantages that Docs talk about when the matchup discussion rolls around to Puff. I don't know how it works out at high level because I haven't seen it done except for a few times, but it seems Doc struggles to grab immensely and usually winds up with Puff at 100+ quite frequently.

Perhaps you (and the other Docs) have different experiences?

 

[otg]

otg should play hungrybox imo

No name troll vs. a top 5 contender in the country... yeah that will be a good representation of the matchup

Accurate stuff

I'm actually going to come out right now and say that I agree with like 99% of what you just posted. I was also arguing the point that Doc can grab anyone as much as anyone else, simply to just state that there are no absolutes in this game, and to say that he won't be getting grabs at the %'s he needs doesn't mean it can't happen.

You are also very correct that Doc's setups for grabs at lower % will NOT work at Killing % because they all knock her too far away. Once again, I was just pointing out that it's very possible for him to link into grabs. If we were arguing "can Doc setup moves into grabs at KO%," I wouldn't have made my claims.

I also never implied that you think the matchup is impossible, once again I was just trying to put it out there that it is possible for him to get grabs, and to assume just because there is no guaranteed setup at ko% doesn't mean it can't happen. I sound like a freaking broken record here.

As for this matchup at top level play, I cannot make any solid claims here because I am by no means a top level player. if I was basing this off of personal exp. I would probably state the matchup is super gay for Doc because at around KO range, I tend to do nothing but look for grabs and space fairs in hopes that I'll somehow KO the *****. This strategy tends to backfire on me because while I'm too busy looking for the guaranteed KO's, they take advantage of that and by the time I get the KO in, I've built waaaaay more damage then I would like; all of it being unnecessary excess damage that could've been avoided had I just continued to play smart and patiently.

So I guess I can't comment on that regard, we'll just have to wait till I **** Mango and Hbox in Grand Finals of RoM 2 huh?

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think what you do is why most people lose to Puff. And also why she's still considered good.

A lot of modern Puffs play in such a way that you can't avoid getting into her grind percent and then...

>______>

You really have to camp Puff, she sort of lives forever and ***** impatience and stuff...

But yeah, thanks for the info and stuff.

 

[Divinokage]

I think what you do is why most people lose to Puff. And also why she's still considered good.

A lot of modern Puffs play in such a way that you can't avoid getting into her grind percent and then...

>______>

You really have to camp Puff, she sort of lives forever and ***** impatience and stuff...

But yeah, thanks for the info and stuff.

At least Ganon is exempt from that, everything trades at least with decent spacing.. But jiggs combo on Ganon can be rough too.. **** lol.

 

[Scar]

i hate puff

she's at least 5th best

also i just checked the chart... jiggs beats pika since when?

 

[unknown522]

^ how does she not?

 

[-ACE-]

Yeah I'd like to hear this one lol

 

[Nintendude]

Not sure if any of you have seen this, but over on the SSB64 boards we created one of these that's actually pretty much finalized and as accurate as it can get:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=241670

The difference between the two charts (besides different games) is that there's only 5 categories of matchups rather than ratios. Personally, I think if this chart switched to the 5 categories then finishing it accurately would be a more realistic task. The more I think about ratios the more arbitrary I realize they are. It's too hard to argue something like 50:50 vs. 55:45, and with the 5 categories method settling it would be simple (just call it even). Also, you don't really have to worry about how badly top tiers **** low tiers. Just call it an extreme disadvantage and be done with it. Otherwise you have to figure out how you defend Sheik having, for example, 85 on Zelda but a 90 on Mewtwo. How is anyone supposed to know and/or see the difference there?

Obviously with only 5 categories of matchups you lose precision, but I think it's impractical and too difficult to accurately create a complete ratios chart.

 

[unknown522]

I've seen it. I also understand your point.

I love how pika has an advantage on every character.

 

[Pi]

I'd be in favor of the 5 category thing ;|
I was recommending it at the start of this project actually

 

[idea]

At least Ganon is exempt from that, everything trades at least with decent spacing.. But jiggs combo on Ganon can be rough too.. **** lol.

love that matchup. i'm really hoping i play you in tournament some day. i never get to play ganons.

i hate puff

she's at least 5th best

also i just checked the chart... jiggs beats pika since when?

bair.

but i can see the argument for both sides. i just think pika has too much trouble getting past bair.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Pika can **** Puff Bair with his amazing disjointed tail of awesome. Trouble is, it only does 6 damage. And since Puff will never be U-smashed, she lives to like 200% per stock unless it's Yoshi's or something.

(I don't think it's that bad for Pikachu, I just don't see how it could be his favour; even is very believable, but Puff's really gay >__>)

Pikachus assemble!

At least Ganon is exempt from that, everything trades at least with decent spacing.. But jiggs combo on Ganon can be rough too.. **** lol.

Obviously if you're too too good then you can do anything you want, but it's far more advisable to be defensive against her, given her disproportionately good punish game, and how her physics, duck, and other things limit your in-game combat abilities against her.

Puff can be gayed really hard, don't get me wrong, but if you don't play that way against her...

>______>

What a silly character ^__^

 

[Ocho(*8*)]

The Pika boards have actually sort of been arguing about the Jiggs matchup lately. Axe, N64, and Chad hate it, yet Festizzio claims it isn't that bad.

Personally I think its in Jiggs favour, yet still not terrible for Pikachu. Pika's uair sends Jiggs too far away to keep comboing after mid percents, which is really annoying. I think that Pika's fair is the underrated move in this match cuz it leads to up smash. Also, Axe who said he doesn't really fair lost to Raistlin at genesis, meanwhile Festizzio, who preaches fair said, "Raistlin is not hard."

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=113293&page=17

 

[KirbyKaze]

Mmmmmm

Sounds like the Pikas need to get their Dux in a row.

u c wat i did thar.

We can wait.

*elevator music*

 

[BigD!!!]

pikas uair only does 6 damage the first time

when you consider how often pikachus do it, it usually only does 3 damage

puff just doesnt go high up in the air and pikachu never gets to land up smash

and hey for mario fsmashing vs jiggs do you guys remember the crew battles from gs2 when a mario (yoyo?) fsmashed vs killaor and he jumped over it and rested him

it was awesome

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

isnt the point to try and not play defensive against characters where the matchup allows you to be offensive?

like if you were fox against puff, wouldnt it be better to spam nairs and shines and pressure her than to run away laser? pressured mistakes are what you need in top level play, you can't just wait for mistakes good players wont make any (or very few)

 

[BigD!!!]

well nairs and shines are great but why not add damage with unpunishable lasers in between

that way you need to take risks way less often, or not at all if you feel like running the clock out on a big enough level

 

[KirbyKaze]

pikas uair only does 6 damage the first time

when you consider how often pikachus do it, it usually only does 3 damage

puff just doesnt go high up in the air and pikachu never gets to land up smash

and hey for mario fsmashing vs jiggs do you guys remember the crew battles from gs2 when a mario (yoyo?) fsmashed vs killaor and he jumped over it and rested him

it was awesome

But Pika's uair will link to uair so it will do 6%

3 + 3 = 6

edit: Sveet, if Puff can kill you from one hit and camp the edge with the best edgecamp in the mother****ing game, and has more range and priority than Fox when her hitboxes come out, and can retreat into said moves to ensure her moves have enough time to come out in a manner that largely puts her at no disadvantage from offensive play, why the hell would you consider crashing in headfirst?

Laser the ***** and make her come to you. Once she's fighting on your terms, you can attack with good safety / flexibility and pressure her for those mistakes. But you attacking her first, because of the nature of her character, is a mistake in and of itself.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I have a hard time taking Festizzio seriously. He also says ICs are easy even though he's really bad against them. >_>

 

[Divinokage]

Ya I understand the defensive stand point.. but my style is pressuring while defending when needed.. and then continue to attack until I get the guy off stage at least. I think it works very well.. does it not? Basically, look for openings and space the **** of the opponents. lol. Well, I love it and I do what I love. =)

So ya Jiggs is a *****, you gotta space so ****ing well lol.

 

[unknown522]

Kage, have you looked at ganon's hitboxes?

 

[Divinokage]

Kage, have you looked at ganon's hitboxes?

No, I haven't looked at anything really.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

well yea, i didn't mean fight in bad situations. i just mean popular opinion is the best way to handle the match up is to camp, and i was trying to say that fox really dominates the match up without camping (which i think is a more effective way)

 

[choknater]

I have a hard time taking Festizzio seriously. He also says ICs are easy even though he's really bad against them. >_>

ahhh **** i beat him at genesis

it was harder than i thought, but then i was like

"pikachu sucks"

so i won

 

[unknown522]

No, I haven't looked at anything really.

Alright, just wondering

 

[KirbyKaze]

well yea, i didn't mean fight in bad situations. i just mean popular opinion is the best way to handle the match up is to camp, and i was trying to say that fox really dominates the match up without camping (which i think is a more effective way)

I think he benefits a lot from understanding the spacing and approach dynamics and being able to actually fight her, but camping her - largely because of how Jigglypuff is played these days - is very necessary.

You can't really rely on camping against her, but I don't think anyone will dispute that it's really, really valuable against Puff.

Anyone have an opinion of Puff vs Pika? I think it's 5-5 or 6-4 for Puff but I'm biased as hell because I think Pikachu is bad. I think I said earlier at some point that Pichu's Fair doesn't legitimately combo into anything, and I'm pretty sure Pika's doesn't either, but I suppose you could do a pseudo-combo by landing a Fair on a low-height airborne Puff into U-smash. It sounds kind of weird just saying it out loud, though, and I'm not even sure it would work. I'd imagine that most Puffs would drift away from such an offensive play by Pika, in fear of said U-smash, or spend a double jump to get away from him...

 

[idea]

Everyone go look at the hitbox on Jiggs' bair. It's hilarious. There's the reasonable-looking hitbox of it, and then a whole extra circle that's not even touching her leg.

And I agree with KK, you really do have to camp Jiggs. Fox when he approaches feels like...maybe an even matchup to me. Almost. When he camps I can see what's so difficult about it. I'd probably put it at higher than a 6-4 but I'm bad at it so it's hard to tell.

But given that the chart has it as 6-4, there's no way Pika-Puff can be 6-4, because there's no way Jiggs is as hard for Pika as Fox is for Jiggs. =P

 

[unknown522]

^ I've seen it. The hitbox is stupidly broken. It's disjointed. I've been telling people for the longest time.

I keep being told that fox can beat it with up-smash and aerials with puff's b-air. It's not possible, unless puff literally jumps into fox's up moves.

 

[Strong Badam]

fox can just pew pew while puff is bairing though =)

 

[N64]

I'm late, sorry. Was driving across country. Missed KK's call.

Pika vs. jiggs is annoying because jiggs is annoying. Pika doesn't have much useful against puff. Puff is tooo light so you can't combo her and she's impossible to gimp. So you have to rack up 60+ damage from single aerials (or uair to uair, ooo 6% combo) and then try to get a usmash in (gl usmashing a competant puff with pika), or rack 90% and try to bait an opportunity to fsmash her (more likely), or rack like 110% until one of your aerials will finally kill. Main problem with the racking of damage on jiggs is her stuff beats yours. Bair goes through like everything, and her fair is easier to set up than most of what pika has. Pika's aerials are kinda awkward against jiggs. Uair hits but either just leads to another uair, nair at low percents, or sometimes nothing at all. And uair's damage is terrible. For pika's nair you have to get relatively close and it's beaten out by jigg's aerials anyways. Fair can work but if jiggs just DIs up and away she takes like 2% damage and pika can't really follow with much most often, while jiggs usually can get away or sometimes retaliate with an aerial before pika's done lagging. Pika's bair can be a nice surprise against jiggs, but it's hella risky. Jiggs punishes risky with rests, grab followups, and fsmash most commonly, so ew. Dair beats jiggs' aerials, but it takes setup time and she can usually just avoid it or shield it.

In ground game vs jiggs, you have to watch for her grabs, fsmash, and utilt primarily. Utilt to rest works wonders, and it's not too hard for jiggs to get close to pika with aerials (just watch out for usmash out of shield, but usually pika will have too much shield stun to do this as long as you space well). Pretty much anything pika misses on the ground is punishable by either bair/fair out of shield or utilt rest.

But yeah it's not all bad. Usmash kills jiggs on most stages at like 60%. So if you can get one in earlyish, it can create a quick stock advantage. It's kinda hard to set it up, jiggs knows you have it and can space aerials so you can't rush in range of it. Nair can lead to it at low percent, but it's pretty DI dependant and you have to hit with the end of the nair and they have to be at just the right percent and etc. but it can work occsionally. You can also uair spike them into the ground (if you get below jiggs) and hope they either standing tech, techroll towards you, or don't tech and then try to follow their eventual getup, at which point you read them and usmash.

Also, other than aerial camping, utilt rest, and occasional techchasing pika's terrible techroll, jiggs can't do much to pika. Pika should be able to get around pretty much all of jigg's edgeguards. Though you can't really edgeguard her either. Jolt works ok against jiggs, it just doesn't work too well as an approach because of jiggs' oos options.

It boils down to jiggs having more priority than pika, and none of pika's usual stuff works. You both just throw moves at eachother until one kills, as with decent DI neither character has significant combos on eachother (outside of the occasional aerial->usmash or utilt/aerial->rest). And jiggs just happens to be better at the single-hit-at-a-time thing than pika.

 

[JPOBS]

I've seen it. I also understand your point.

I love how pika has an advantage on every character.

low tier fox n***a !!!