Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]

[SonuvaBeach]

not really, if every ganon but one is behind the metagame in the marth matchup, thats not saying that the metagame isnt there, its saying that the players who aren't doing it aren't at the metagame.

Yeah. I think it is hard to draw the line between metagame/character advantages and player's skill. Mango and Armada are perfect examples.

 

[JPOBS]

not really, if every ganon but one is behind the metagame in the marth matchup, thats not saying that the metagame isnt there, its saying that the players who aren't doing it aren't at the metagame.

very recently in the "is there possible to have a new tier list" thread, there was a very heated discussion about if jiggs and peach should be moved because of the performances of mango and armada.

in a nutshell, the Pro revamp side said that mango and armada showed that jiggs and peachs metagame had evolved because jiggs was now winning consistently, and peach had never won, or made it to gf of a national tourny, and so both should be moved up.

the Against revamp side said that armada and mango where simply using characters that had the ability to win (hence being high teir) and simply being flat out BETTER than everyone else, despite the character metagame being the same as years past.

If you use one particular player of one character (say...taj or kage) and use them as evidence of said character's metagame, and say everyone else isnt up to scratch, then its tough to call if the characters metagame is evolving and only one person is utilizing it, or it so happens that one player is just flat out better at this game.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

its about character options. Peach and Puff made it as far as they did by overcoming bad match ups. take hbox vs zhu for example. fox has the advantage in the match up but hbox played better and got placed better.

also, if you didnt notice puff and peach are actually really high on the tier list. if a mario or a link won the tournament that'd be a different story.

 

[Dark Hart]

Competitive play involves much more than just that, and if it did, our interpretations for matchups and tier placements would be heavily influenced in the past by players like Ken that essentially dominated everybody in their era.

Aren't Marth and Fox # 1 & 2 on the tier list? Didn't Ken main Marth and second Fox? hmm...

 

[Rannskita]

very recently in the "is there possible to have a new tier list" thread, there was a very heated discussion about if jiggs and peach should be moved because of the performances of mango and armada.

in a nutshell, the Pro revamp side said that mango and armada showed that jiggs and peachs metagame had evolved because jiggs was now winning consistently, and peach had never won, or made it to gf of a national tourny, and so both should be moved up.

the Against revamp side said that armada and mango where simply using characters that had the ability to win (hence being high teir) and simply being flat out BETTER than everyone else, despite the character metagame being the same as years past.

If you use one particular player of one character (say...taj or kage) and use them as evidence of said character's metagame, and say everyone else isnt up to scratch, then its tough to call if the characters metagame is evolving and only one person is utilizing it, or it so happens that one player is just flat out better at this game.

on the flip side you could say being a 'better player' allows them to play the matchup the way its sposed to be played. some levels of a characters metagame can only be achieved by 'better play(ers)'.

 

[JPOBS]

its about character options. Peach and Puff made it as far as they did by overcoming bad match ups. take hbox vs zhu for example. fox has the advantage in the match up but hbox played better and got placed better.

also, if you didnt notice puff and peach are actually really high on the tier list. if a mario or a link won the tournament that'd be a different story.

Precisely, thats exactly what im saying, hbox won not because the matchup is in puffs favor, but because he played better.

going back to scar's comment which made me bring up this discussion: "IF there is a ganon style that pretty much shuts down marth, the matchup rating put on the chart should be in ganondorf's favor."

what you said basically supports my arguement, not disproves it. If there is a particular ganon that beats all the marths in the world (say kage) like you have said, its not ganon having the advantage, its simply overcoming a bad matchup.

so even if kage consistently beats every marth in the world, thats his player skill overcoming a bad matchup, but the matchup chart should still be in favor of marth should it not?

 

[skrach8]

i wish there was a huge frame/hitbox/lag/etc. data base for every character as to compare what moves would beat out others in EVERY situation.

that way somone could potentially figure out the best options for every move and every situation... disregarding mindgames and other person specific tactics.

THIS IS WHY MELEE IS THE BEST FIGHTING GAME EVER..... SF is sick, but the movement aspect lends so much more in smash.

 

[ArcNatural]

I'm pretty sure TAS confirmed that Fox/Bowser were best in game providing that the characters HAD to attack each other eventually, followed by Falco or something like that heh.

 

[Spife]

I'm pretty sure TAS confirmed that Fox/Bowser were best in game providing that the characters HAD to attack each other eventually, followed by Falco or something like that heh.

How bowser? I'd like to see this information

 

[victra♥]

Yeah really. Bowser? lol. wat.

 

[adumbrodeus]

i wish there was a huge frame/hitbox/lag/etc. data base for every character as to compare what moves would beat out others in EVERY situation.

that way somone could potentially figure out the best options for every move and every situation... disregarding mindgames and other person specific tactics.

THIS IS WHY MELEE IS THE BEST FIGHTING GAME EVER..... SF is sick, but the movement aspect lends so much more in smash.

Alternate options are also important because no character has an option that beats out everything.

Period.



My thread in brawl tactical about mindgames potential talks about raw chance in beating out options, along with other things that allow you to talk about how successful mindgames will be on average in each match-up without delving into player skill itself.

 

[idea]

bowser's up-b beats most moves.

 

[Cosmo!]

no its a stupid hypothetical thing that is really dumb and wastes brain cells and your time and energy

lets talk about link instead

 

[Pink Reaper]

Link is soooooooo broken, his Up B has like, way too much range and power. He should be banned.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Precisely, thats exactly what im saying, hbox won not because the matchup is in puffs favor, but because he played better.

going back to scar's comment which made me bring up this discussion: "IF there is a ganon style that pretty much shuts down marth, the matchup rating put on the chart should be in ganondorf's favor."

what you said basically supports my arguement, not disproves it. If there is a particular ganon that beats all the marths in the world (say kage) like you have said, its not ganon having the advantage, its simply overcoming a bad matchup.

so even if kage consistently beats every marth in the world, thats his player skill overcoming a bad matchup, but the matchup chart should still be in favor of marth should it not?

they sound like they are the same, but if you watch, you will see the difference. hbox capitalized on a FEWWWW mistakes and usually got a kill from that. thats player skill. zhu got a lot more first hits in but didn't use them quite as well.

things i like to think about when describing a matchup:
1) how well each character gets first hits off (marth should get first hits vs most characters, and his bad matchups are the ones where they can match his range
2) how many first hits are needed to take a stock on average (for example: falcon players tend to only need 1-2 first hits, and rely on efficient combos)
3) character speed (lag & movement)
4) recovery/edge guarding
5) kill options (lead-ins?)

ganon has kill options on marth, matches his range well, but is somewhat slower. marth edge guards ganon well and combos a little better.

 

[unknown522]

its about character options. Peach and Puff made it as far as they did by overcoming bad match ups. take hbox vs zhu for example. fox has the advantage in the match up but hbox played better and got placed better.

also, if you didnt notice puff and peach are actually really high on the tier list. if a mario or a link won the tournament that'd be a different story.

http://allisbrawl.com/brackets/bracket5679.gif

Mango faced 1 fox, 1 ICs, 1 Jiggs, and 2 peaches. That's not that bad.

Armada on the other hand.....Falcos and foxes galore. Then M2K

 

[BunBun]

I'm pretty sure TAS confirmed that Fox/Bowser were best in game providing that the characters HAD to attack each other eventually, followed by Falco or something like that heh.

Yeah really. Bowser? lol. wat.

How bowser? I'd like to see this information

Yep. At perfect play it was ((Fox = Bowser) > Falco) > Everyone else.

With Bowser and Fox it was UpB out of Shield and Shine clashing each time. The only reason Falco is lower is because his jump takes longer to come out.

I summon Magus for more info, though.

 

[ETWIST51294]

Link is soooooooo broken, his Up B has like, way too much range and power. He should be banned.

N0 n00b, r0y iz w4y m0r3 br0k3n cuz r0y h4s t3h ph1r3:flame:

 

[NES n00b]

N0 n00b, r0y iz w4y m0r3 br0k3n cuz r0y h4s t3h ph1r3:flame:

Don't insult my name. >_<

 

[Dark Hart]

Yea, don't insult the n00b's name.

 

[ETWIST51294]

<_<

>_>

okay...

 

[KirbyKaze]

armada played 4 foxes then dashizwiz, m2k, and mango three times.

the only bad matchup he was missing was sheik

 

[Dark Hart]

I've seen him play European Sheiks, it's basically the same except he does weird u-air combos lol

 

[RaynEX]

armada played 4 foxes then dashizwiz, m2k, and mango three times.

the only bad matchup he was missing was sheik

Armada is so good at this game. He deserves all the hype right now.

 

[unknown522]

next update coming soon.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Aren't Marth and Fox # 1 & 2 on the tier list? Didn't Ken main Marth and second Fox? hmm...

I don't think you even know the slightest of what you're talking about.

First of all, Ken was like 99 % Marth during his career. In tournament matches, the only times I've ever seen him pull out Fox was during PC in late 2006, the first major tournament he lost in a while. Other than that, I saw him pull Fox out in crew matches a while back.

Secondly, back when Ken actually played, the tier list had Marth as a non-top tier character, he was in high tier and basically everybody thought that Fox and Falco (and Sheik, I suppose) were the shiz. It wasn't until a year and a half after Ken quit that the current tier list you see was made.

And finally, your timelines are horribly wrong and don't have any effect on each other. A better example to use would be M2K dominating everybody for a year with mostly Marth, but even with that, that doesn't represent anything and that just leads back to my main point in my earlier post.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I don't think you even know the slightest of what you're talking about.

First of all, Ken was like 99 % Marth during his career. In tournament matches, the only times I've ever seen him pull out Fox was during PC in late 2006, the first major tournament he lost in a while. Other than that, I saw him pull Fox out in crew matches a while back.

Secondly, back when Ken actually played, the tier list had Marth as a non-top tier character, he was in high tier and basically everybody thought that Fox and Falco (and Sheik, I suppose) were the shiz. It wasn't until a year and a half after Ken quit that the current tier list you see was made.

And finally, your timelines are horribly wrong and don't have any effect on each other. A better example to use would be M2K dominating everybody for a year with mostly Marth, but even with that, that doesn't represent anything and that just leads back to my main point in my earlier post.

not to get picky, but the fox/falco tier list came out ~july'06 -- as ken's reign ended. before that was sheik/fox/marth in top tier.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Ken's reign didn't end until 2007. For over 2 years, even as Ken retired and M2K dominated the smash scene, the list had Fox and Falco placed in Top with Marth and Sheik placed in High.

 

[Strong Badam]

yeah that tier list came out in 2006.
and the one where marth ***** and got put as 2nd on the tier list was in 2008.
so....



also why are we talking about tier lists? this is the match-up char thread. gtfo my internets

 

[Divinokage]

So out of context, wtf is up with the Pranked stuff!?

 

[x After Dawn x]

No clue. =/

Apparently, Premium members can choose to "prank" normal members or something, and then it gives them a magenta-colored name. Somebody prank me! =D

 

[Strong Badam]

itt after dawn is gay

 

[ArcNatural]

I don't think you even know the slightest of what you're talking about.

First of all, Ken was like 99 % Marth during his career. In tournament matches, the only times I've ever seen him pull out Fox was during PC in late 2006, the first major tournament he lost in a while. Other than that, I saw him pull Fox out in crew matches a while back.

Secondly, back when Ken actually played, the tier list had Marth as a non-top tier character, he was in high tier and basically everybody thought that Fox and Falco (and Sheik, I suppose) were the shiz. It wasn't until a year and a half after Ken quit that the current tier list you see was made.

And finally, your timelines are horribly wrong and don't have any effect on each other. A better example to use would be M2K dominating everybody for a year with mostly Marth, but even with that, that doesn't represent anything and that just leads back to my main point in my earlier post.

I thought there was one MLG that Ken won where he only played Fox the whole tournament.

 

[worldjem7]

First post updated:

Changes:

sheik: - vs ICs to 45-55.
- sheik v mario 65-35

fox: - vs Doc, and mario to 6-4.
- vs puff to 6-4. Lasers.
- vs DK to 6-4.
- pichu to 85-15.

falco: - vs marth to 45-55.
- vs peach to 45-55.
- vs doc to 6-4

marth: - vs doc to 65-35
- vs dk to 6-4
- vs luigi to 65-35
- vs YL to 65-35
- vs G&W to 80-20

Puff: - vs doc / mario to 55-45
- vs link to 55-45
- vs YL to 6-4
- vs pika to 55-45

Bowser: - vs pichu to 45-55
- vs kirby to 50-50
- vs M2 to 50-50

Yoshi: - vs pichu to 50-50

Pichu: - vs kirby to 55-45


unknown522 will have explanations up soon.

 

[Afro_Chris]

hey how is jiggs vs falcon in jiggs favour shouldn't it be even?

 

[idea]

seems like jiggs favour to me. either way it's close. and i think we can all agree that falcon is not a jiggs counter, so it's either even or slightly jiggs' favour. i can explain why i think so when i'm not also eating burger king.

 

[Strong Badam]

i agree with dk vs. marth change
dk vs. fox is questionable.

 

[Afro_Chris]

seems like jiggs favour to me. either way it's close. and i think we can all agree that falcon is not a jiggs counter, so it's either even or slightly jiggs' favour. i can explain why i think so when i'm not also eating burger king.

ok, but wat puts it in jiggs favour?

 

[otg]

Nice, this list gets better and better... but here comes some slight wtf status. How is it that Doc v. jiggs is the same as Mario vs. Jiggs? Yeah I know they are similar, but the thing that gives Doc the advantage vs. Jiggs (something else we still do not see eye to eye on), is that his Fair KO's off the top, which is the universal way of dealing with Jiggs. Not just that but it KO's relatively earlier, and Dthrow-> fair is guaranteed from like 70-80%.... thats all ba news for jiggs.

What does regular Mario that comes even close to that? They both have cape **** nonsense if she misses a rest, they both have a solid camp game vs. her (even though Pills doing more damage overall then Fireballs are once again more useful in the matchup), they both have dthrow-> moveset for easy damage building... but Marios inability to get easy KO's seems like it would hold him back in the matchup.

IMO, if you really think that doc v. Jiggs is 45-55 Jiggs advantage, put Mario V. Jiggs as lower than that like 40-60 or something, because I really don't see how Mario gets the same easy KO's that Doc does. IMO, its ATLEAST even if not in Doc's favor slightly, but regardless.

EDIT:

Upon rereading this (besides noticing my horrible grammar), I've come to the realization that Mario's better Usmash and recovery give him a slight boost in the matchup, but imo both of these things are negligible in the long run. Mario's usmash being better than Doc's doesn't change the fact that there is no reliable way to setup into it, while Doc's uber powerful dthrow-> fair is guaranteed and ***** face. Both of their recoveries are shwaggy as **** regardless, so even though Mario's recovery has more options, it's insignificant.

 

[unknown522]

^ mario's f-smash / u-smash are awesome ways to kill jiggs. u-smash is invincible at his head and f-samsh has more range than puff.

They're good in their own ways.

Will post other reasons later.