Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]

[Dark Hart]

So... I can't possibly see how Falcon can beat a Marth.

 

[Strong Badam]

get better

 

[Dark Hart]

lol seriously though

So long as Marth has that sword falcon has no way to approach. dash-dance and run around until he finds a place to grab a suppose, but as id that actually works in high level play. Marth out prioritizes falcon in every way.

... imo

 

[unknown522]

Watch good falcons vs marth. They do it somehow. It's falcon's easiest matchup out of the top tiers.

Use dash dancing to bait moves and if he goes in the air for some reason, raptor boost under him. Even if you get a trade, then it will still benefit you. Grab when he's open and do combos from it. Edgeguarding is easy. Just force him on the stage then knee him, with invincibility, or d-air -> knee when he's not high enough percent to kill. You can also start combos n-air at mid percents, or u-air if you anti-air him with it.

Non-marth mains mostly think it's even. Marth mains will mostly say that falcon wins.

Marth can do **** **** to falcon, like tech chasing, good gimps / edgeguarding, and combos.

 

[NES n00b]

lol seriously though

So long as Marth has that sword falcon has no way to approach. dash-dance and run around until he finds a place to grab a suppose, but as id that actually works in high level play. Marth out prioritizes falcon in every way.

... imo

Falcon's dashdancing camping is more than Marth's and his range. Falcons nair has good range so Falcon usually has an easier time getting in then other characters. Also, Falcon has a really easy punish game off grab which he can get if Marth even throws out a move with even slight amount of lag and has a pretty good punishment game from even nair. Edgeguarding Falcon is easy but so is the other way around, but slightly less though.

 

[JPOBS]

^ I dunno if it's true or not, but he told me on AIM, that he can CG falcon's really well with d-throw.

ya gaws dthrow chaingrabs falcon its awesome

but he falls for basic falon shenanigans like nair to ****.

 

[ETWIST51294]

lol seriously though

So long as Marth has that sword falcon has no way to approach. dash-dance and run around until he finds a place to grab a suppose, but as id that actually works in high level play. Marth out prioritizes falcon in every way.

... imo

I could have swore thats what falcon does against everyone, oh yeah, he does. If marth gets hit or grabbed your going to get hit by a pretty big combo. I have a problem edgeguarding marth.

 

[Strong Badam]

back-air/stomp or ledgehop knee w/ invincibility.

 

[DippnDots]

Or u-tilt on yoshi's story, pretty sure you can time your foot to come down before his sword angles up enough through the stage to hit ya, i'm basing this purely off you being able to downsmash marth on YS with falco if you space it right though! :D

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Not if the Marth player knows how to sweetspot <_<

Hey go with the sure thing

Don't gamble on your marth edgeguarding

SnAkEeEeE EyEzZzZz

Lightshield->Knee

It'll make Marth

AGGGHHH

Gimped

AGGGGHHH!!

edit:Fixed for epicness

 

[Pi]

^^Not if the Marth player knows how to sweetspot <_<

Don't gamble on your marth edgeguarding

Go with the sure thing. Lightshield edgehog->ledgehop reverse knee->repeat until dead

SnAkEeEeE EyEzZzZz

 

[SonuvaBeach]

So... I can't possibly see how Falcon can beat a Marth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1M-hA3ZivKs

Ta Da. That is how. Notice how scar basically gets one good hit or grab --> stock.

Greg vs LOLmaster is basically the same but taken down a notch as G-reg doesn't combo LOLmaster as well, but still comes out on top with some good combos.

 

[Strong Badam]

notice how the skill gap between scar and LOL Master is pretty size-able.

 

[Linguini]

Falco vs Ganon is 55-45 in falcos favor. Prove me wrong,zhu lol sounds like youve only fought kage's ganon with your falco, I havnt lost to falco in 2 years.

 

[worldjem7]

one more thing about the percents, unknown:

i think you should preface with what the percents actually mean.

if sheik beats samus 70-30, then that means the +/- differential is 40%. that means samus' positive 30% is lower than the +/- differential. in other words, the matchup becomes a counter and that in theory, it's not possible for samus to beat sheik.

if fox vs falcon is 60-40, the +/- differential is 20%, then captain's 40% vs +/- 20% can be overcome. it also implies that captain's strengths are double the actual disadvantage he has in the fox matchup

This is false.

I thought it meant that with two equally skilled players, that is the percent of matches they will win on average.

e.g.

A top level Fox player will beat a top level Falcon player 60% of the time on a stage equally suited to both characters.

Obviously it's theoretical but you get my point.

That's why 100-0 matchups should be very rare, because it's almost impossible for one of the players to win 19/20 matches, unless it's like Sheik/Fox vs. Bowser or something.

This is accurate.

I wrote a preface as to what the numbers mean when I first made this thread on the first post. Please to not make your own assumptions.

 

[SonuvaBeach]

notice how the skill gap between scar and LOL Master is pretty size-able.

True. It is really apparent when watching Greg vs LOL then Scar vs LOL. I don't think the difference between Greg and LOLmaster is that big though and Greg won.

 

[Plairnkk]

greg is just rusty. he used to be, and will soon enough be a top falcon again

 

[Divinokage]

Falco vs Ganon is 55-45 in falcos favor. Prove me wrong,zhu lol sounds like youve only fought kage's ganon with your falco, I havnt lost to falco in 2 years.

Ya I got ***** by Zhu lol.. Really, you haven't lost to Falco in 2 years?

 

[Europhoria]

Falcon hits Marth hard. I think harder then anyone else (even Sheik who ***** Marth, I don't feel she combos Marth nearly as badly... Marth just can't do anything back to Sheik lawl X.X). I think Falcon wins, but it isn't ****. It's very possible to win for Marth. 55/45, maybe 60/40 on a stupid stage.

Sword is over-rated in this match up. Every Falcon finds a way inside lol. Eventually it's gonna happen, then it's gonna hurt. Marth just has to find a way of getting a hit or something on Falcon before Falcon weaves his way around the sword.

 

[-ACE-]

Kage he lost to Shiz like 2 months ago, but also beat Shiz in brackets that same day.

 

[Divinokage]

Kage he lost to Shiz like 2 months ago, but also beat Shiz in brackets that same day.

I saw him 3 stock Mango's Falco too, it was brutal lol.

 

[Plairnkk]

I used to think Linguini was full of ****, but everytime I see him fight a falco he ***** them. lmao

 

[-ACE-]

I saw him 3 stock Mango's Falco too, it was brutal lol.

I heard they played but didn't hear anything concerning the outcome. Linguini's Falco game is crazy.

 

[Divinokage]

I heard they played but didn't hear anything concerning the outcome. Linguini's Falco game is crazy.

If I could have that, I would be unstoppable!!!

Edit: Linguini is legit. =P

 

[Scar]

Sword is over-rated in this match up. Every Falcon finds a way inside lol. Eventually it's gonna happen, then it's gonna hurt. Marth just has to find a way of getting a hit or something on Falcon before Falcon weaves his way around the sword.

i disagree, i think marths are stupid and the smart ones really keep that wall up, falcon has a hard time getting in -- once he does it's really **** but marth can keep control of the match if he's smart enough

also marth gets grabs way more often than CF and Marth's grabs are deadly since they almost always lead to grab at the ledge or fsmash

 

[-ACE-]

Scar is 100% correct lol

 

[x After Dawn x]

Falcon vs Marth is so messed up

Sometimes I think it's in Marth's favor because Marth combos him so well and has such good range with his sword. But then I realize Falcon combos him well too and once he gets inside of Marth's sword, it's like **** lol

tbh I wouldn't be surprised if both Ganon and Falcon were 60-40 against Marth, or at least 55-45. But I also wouldn't be surprised if the matchup was 55-45 for Marth vs Falcon

 

[Scar]

falcons problem will always be that he has no guaranteed approaches, he really doesn't have anything that isn't entirely see-through besides his nair which has excellent priority

so a lot of the time you'll notice that once falcon hits you, the best players will **** you really really really hard for it and it looks like the matchup is even. in reality, good players when they're against falcon don't let him get those hits

it's entirely possible to do, everyone has seen matches where CF players get completely shut down for a stock or two, it's just basic smart good play. falcon is so fast though that he can capitalize on very small mistakes, which is why it's easy for good falcons to go toe-to-toe with mid level players even in his worst matchups

anyways my point is that if this list is the matchups as we see in the current metagame at the highest levels of play, the matchup is EVEN, i see no good reason for CF to have a favorable matchup against marth except for "if CF magically gets in and gets a hit he kills marth"

 

[-ACE-]

Imo Ganon vs Marth is generally 55/45 in Marth's favor, but stage dependent.

Falcon vs Marth is very close to even - highly stage dependent.

Falcon beats Marth open stage, Marth ***** Falcon offstage.

 

[Divinokage]

Falcon vs Marth is so messed up

Sometimes I think it's in Marth's favor because Marth combos him so well and has such good range with his sword. But then I realize Falcon combos him well too and once he gets inside of Marth's sword, it's like **** lol

tbh I wouldn't be surprised if both Ganon and Falcon were 60-40 against Marth, or at least 55-45. But I also wouldn't be surprised if the matchup was 55-45 for Marth vs Falcon

Maybe.. well if I'm able to beat every Marth in the world.. then it's possible lol. I think Falcons have to work much harder against Marth than Ganon.

Marth-Ganon is 55-45 for Marth because they don't know how to **** Marth properly.

 

[x After Dawn x]

agree 100 % with everything you said there, Kage

tbh I think Ganon could be so good vs Marth if people knew how to DI and space everything properly. Trading hits with Ganon when you're Marth is just brutal, it's like Ganon falls over on the ground and Marth just flies off the screen and dies lol, and unless Marth gets a tipper off (which only happens rarely if the Ganon has good enough spacing), it's really hard to kill Ganon

I could see the matchup being anywhere from 60-40 to 40-60 in Marth's favor. I've played a good Ganon before and I got kinda ***** lol, so I could definitely see how Ganon has that matchup

 

[choknater]

ic's vs ganon is hard...

ic's vs peach is 1:99

 

[Scar]

i don't think we should be sitting here squabbling about how the matchups DO go as opposed to how they should at top levels

for example i don't know anything about marth v ganon but IF there is a ganon style that pretty much shuts down marth, the matchup rating put on the chart should be in ganondorf's favor. saying like "bad ganons don't know how to do this so the matchup is in marth's favor" is stupid and just feeds into the hierarchy of the tier list

 

[-ACE-]

Kage, do you think M2K has as much experience in the Ganon/Marth matchup as you do? I'm guessing no, but I'm just curious. I wish I could see vids of it.

 

[Strong Badam]

The problem with the Marth match-ups (and a lot of other characters, too; a good example being Fox) is that nowadays there are like 1, maybe 2 good, top-level Marths that have kept up with the meta-game to take data from and keep the popular opinion more-or-less accurate. Pre-Brawl, there was Azen, Ken, Husband, Mew2King, and a little bit of Cactuar near the end. Azen, Ken, and Husband haven't been seen recently at all, and Cactuar switched to Fox for the most part. Mew2King also tends to use Sheik a lot more than Marth in certain match-ups (namely Falcon, Ganon, other Marths/Sheiks, etc.) than previously. Ken vs. Isai is a pretty common match-up from back in the day, and Ken almost always won. Falcon's meta-game (vs. Marth, anyway) hasn't seen a drastic change or improvement, but Marth's has changed/improved a lot due to Mew2King's gimping prowess. I do not think that Captain Falcon has an advantage over Marth.

This next part is personal experience, and from a while ago, so it's likely not accurate, but back in my Marth days I had a lot of trouble against a Ganon. It was probably due to being unfamiliar with the match-up, and that I was really bad back then (as opposed to bad/okay right now =D), but yeah. I think that the match-up is even, or slightly in Marth's favor.

 

[choknater]

^i would guess maybe not but the matchup doesnt seem TOO hard to strategize in. the execution could be difficult tho since spacing is tough for both chars.

 

[JPOBS]

i don't think we should be sitting here squabbling about how the matchups DO go as opposed to how they should at top levels

for example i don't know anything about marth v ganon but IF there is a ganon style that pretty much shuts down marth, the matchup rating put on the chart should be in ganondorf's favor. saying like "bad ganons don't know how to do this so the matchup is in marth's favor" is stupid and just feeds into the hierarchy of the tier list

but then people start bringing up the whole "its not that ganons metagame has become better vs marth, its that one individual player being more skilled at the game" argument.

they both seem silly to claim yet correct at the same time.

 

[JBM falcon08]

marth vs ganon is evenzy.

i'd like to know why anyone disagrees with this.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

but then people start bringing up the whole "its not that ganons metagame has become better vs marth, its that one individual player being more skilled at the game" argument.

they both seem silly to claim yet correct at the same time.

not really, if every ganon but one is behind the metagame in the marth matchup, thats not saying that the metagame isnt there, its saying that the players who aren't doing it aren't at the metagame.

 

[x After Dawn x]

I think you guys are forgetting that the metagame isn't just about absolute high level play with top pros and the best players for every character. Competitive play involves much more than just that, and if it did, our interpretations for matchups and tier placements would be heavily influenced in the past by players like Ken that essentially dominated everybody in their era.