Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]

[joeplicate]

IIRC

pkm vs falcomist was on fd
falcomist lasered for ever
pressured with lasers, and then when dk jumped in the air, he would shoot another laser to catch him on the way down, then start a combo from it
he destroyed him and then got the ragequit

 

[DippnDots]

That's really because Mario had no tourney placings because

a) Doctor Mario is better in almost every way, so people use Doc instead
b) People who don't switch to Doc will probably end up switching to Fox or Luigi down the road

1der and pyro

two mario mains who can place well, i'm not 100% sure but i want to throw out DJ Nintendo too, though i've never met him and know he plays a lot of different characters.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Mario is ****, it's a shame a lot of people just don't like playing him, and also that Doc and Luigi exist for people that would play with him because he has so much potential. IMO, Mario is better than DK and Luigi, I really wouldn't be surprised if he placed higher than them on a new tier list, though Luigi would probably still place higher.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

so marth beats peach 60-40 even if he has to wait til 210% where fair kills off the top

 

[choknater]

LOL well at least on a smaller stage like bf, fod, or yoshis thats not the case

and thats al ot of neutrals

 

[NES n00b]

Pokemon stadium also allows easy kills as long as you get some kind of uptilt action going.

 

[4% APR]

1der and pyro

two mario mains who can place well, i'm not 100% sure but i want to throw out DJ Nintendo too, though i've never met him and know he plays a lot of different characters.

those examples are pretty bad haha, Josh doesnt even really use mario in tourney and pyro quit a while ago/used falco

 

[unknown522]

marth beats peach at least 6-4. Probably more though.

 

[Strong Badam]

and strong bad uair nair up b edgeguard is something dumb that might work like 1/10 times but i tried it 2 days ago and died because of it

you need to get better.

so marth beats peach 60-40 even if he has to wait til 210% where fair kills off the top

u-tilt kills at like.... 160%.... on dreamland...

 

[1048576]

I can see what you mean, but pretty much every character has range advantage on Pichu. He has to fight to get in on like, everyone. Pikachu is not exception here.

True, but Pikachu hardly ever has a range advantage on anybody. When he does, it's friekin scary.

 

[unknown522]

if they want to get upair -> nair -> up-b edgeguarded they can. =D

Lol, I got n-air -> giant punch on raynex's link a few months ago. Starting from 30%.

Meh, getting in on Falco is tough, but luigi has a way easier time than alot of characters that have similar numbers vs falco.

trading hits is vital in this matchup(except on YS where he dies at 0% from 2 shines)since falco can die from a simple forward throw off the stage(so can weegee).

i dont think this matchup is as bad as fox pretty much because luigi isn't in bad shape til mid percent vs fox and high% vs falco.

killing vertically is broken.

vertical kills are broken. Falco won't die from an f-throw until like 140%, unless you do some really stupid recovery.

IIRC

pkm vs falcomist was on fd
falcomist lasered for ever
pressured with lasers, and then when dk jumped in the air, he would shoot another laser to catch him on the way down, then start a combo from it
he destroyed him and then got the ragequit

oh.

Mario is ****, it's a shame a lot of people just don't like playing him, and also that Doc and Luigi exist for people that would play with him because he has so much potential. IMO, Mario is better than DK and Luigi, I really wouldn't be surprised if he placed higher than them on a new tier list, though Luigi would probably still place higher.

I love mario. Doc is definitely a better charater though, but I like mario's combos more.

Pokemon stadium also allows easy kills as long as you get some kind of uptilt action going.

Edgeguarding peach isn't that hard if you know what you're doing. Chip away her jump and her float, then force her low so you can have your way with her.





Also, it's a bit soon, but new update coming.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Btw, I'm still really sure Fox vs Falco is even. I'll post reasons later, but trust me when I say a lot of Falco players like Zhu and Mango hate the tools Fox has on Falco and puts him in really bad positions.

 

[pockyD]

hopefully all future arguments are as convincing as "trust me"

 

[john!]

so marth vs peach... i think is in peach's favor slightly, 55-45

peach can trade hits and combo about even with marth, but when the stocks get high marth has no real finisher. marth can't edge guard peach at all, nair won't kill until like 150% on YS. the only way i see marth's getting a kill on peach below 150% is dthrow fsmash(tip) if peach DIs wrong. the only other finisher really is sideb->utilt

peach can CC marth forever, so while marth is trying to get the kill peach can tack on LOTS of percent. peach can edge guard marth pretty well if they can aim their turnips (not random tosses), and all of peach's moves lead into edge guards by 90%

>_>

<_<

Try coming back to the stage vs. a seasoned Marth... you'll take like 50% at least. Oh and don't pluck a turnip anywhere near him or you get tippered. And if you get a turnip don't bother throwing it cuz he'll just catch it.

I still say Fox is worse for Peach but there's nooooooo way this is in her favor.

 

[x After Dawn x]

I'm pretty sure Peach wouldn't stand a chance against Marth if she didn't have turnips. Matchup is still hella gay, though

 

[Dark Hart]

hopefully all future arguments are as convincing as "trust me"

agreed

Btw, I'm still really sure Fox vs Falco is even. I'll post reasons later, but trust me when I say a lot of Falco players like Zhu and Mango hate the tools Fox has on Falco and puts him in really bad positions.

I'd really like to see these reasons, because I personally thing that Falco wins, but it's still hella close

 

[x After Dawn x]

When I'm able to get on my computer, I'll post a lengthy argument why. I'm using my iPod now so it would take like an hour to type it up on this. >_>

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

"even if", meaning marth would still have a 6-4 advantage on peach whether or not he could kill her at low % or not.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

Thanks Vulc.




Tech chasing with luigi is more about timing when you wavedash not as much spacing with them. Luigi's recovery against any character isn't reliable, nor does he have an effective profectile against anyone, so bringing up those two points for this specific match up doesn't really matter.

I disagree on his approach, plenty of options are available you just can't be the one approaching all the time.

And his throw ***** spacies, as you can chain grab them or just combo them to 60+% like it's nothing and most times you can get in a fair or dair to finish the combo. Distance wise, yeah, it can't KO, same goes for a lot of characters.

I'm not trying to say luigi is good in this match up, but he definitely has a better time in it than most characters and a better time than most people give him credit for.

I only think DK has a insignificantly worse time against spacies because of his lack of mobility, as he falls victim to a lot of the same tricks spacies use to **** luigi with.


edit: falling edge canceled nair -> up-b ***** spacies

i dont really feel like replying to this, not because it was a bad response, but becuase the community's opinion on Luigi isn't the same as mine I guess.

 

[KirbyKaze]

so marth vs peach... i think is in peach's favor slightly, 55-45

peach can trade hits and combo about even with marth, but when the stocks get high marth has no real finisher. marth can't edge guard peach at all, nair won't kill until like 150% on YS. the only way i see marth's getting a kill on peach below 150% is dthrow fsmash(tip) if peach DIs wrong. the only other finisher really is sideb->utilt

peach can CC marth forever, so while marth is trying to get the kill peach can tack on LOTS of percent. peach can edge guard marth pretty well if they can aim their turnips (not random tosses), and all of peach's moves lead into edge guards by 90%

Peach does not combo even with Marth.

F-throw WD F-smash still works or sends Peach off the stage.

Peach sucks at getting back if she grabs the ledge because she has no invincible ledgedash or anything. Reaction time and a bit of jazz is required, but it's perfectly possible to make her life hell coming back.

Marth edgeguards the hell out of Peach for KOs, or like 60%. If she makes it back to the ledge, do it up Cactuar style until she eventually kills herself in frustration or you setup an edgeguard of tipped D-tilt, hit her with an F-smash at a good percent, or she mis-DIs pretty much anything.

Peach's edgeguarding on Marth is significantly worse than vice versa. The fact that she has no moves to force him to go low beyond turnips, basically, which he can hit through really easily, enables him to recover high with a lot of consistency. If he goes low and she can't setup turnip edgeguard (due to lack of being able to pull turnip, float at right height, and edgehog fast enough because of positioning), she can't do anything to his low recovery if he sweetspots because she can't lightshield hog and his Up+b hitbox will keep her moves from hitting. His floatiness also makes it easy for him to get far back without sacrificing his float SideB (or double jump) if he goes high. Peach can't pressure him from the ledge very well, either, unless Marth consistently gets tricked whereas Marth can just react to her. No thinking required on his part, just execution.

Peach has to do much more work to kill him, get inside him, and doesn't punish as hard. If Marth DD camp spaces properly, he can punish turnip pulls and pretty much anything she does on the ground. If she goes aerial, he can sword her to hell and there's nothing you can do about it (as Peach).

The mistake Marths make is being predictable from the ledge and being punished for it, and doing aerials when she's on the ground, rather than just overwhelming her punishable ground game with movement.

Peach does not go even with Marth.

edit: ROFL at non-dash attack moves from Peach trading with Marth.

 

[unknown522]

Btw, I'm still really sure Fox vs Falco is even. I'll post reasons later, but trust me when I say a lot of Falco players like Zhu and Mango hate the tools Fox has on Falco and puts him in really bad positions.

In the large groups of people, when this matchup is discussed, mostly falco mains say that it's even, or fox wins, while almost everyone else says falco wins. They beat foxes in tourney all the time, but still complain about the matchup. It makes no sense. TBH, most of them aren't even better players than the foxes, but they still win, even if they lose to almost every other character, they still manage to beat the foxes somehow.

In the middle of what people debate the matchup to be, I put the number in the middle of what is argued, which would be 55-45 for falco's favor. I personally think it's 6-4 for falco, but whatever.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

Yeah

Falco>Fox

not many characters give falco a run like fox does, so of course falco mains want fox>falco

see peach and shiek players for a better understanding of the fox>>>>>> bias.

 

[joeplicate]

falco vs fox is such a detailed matchup (although I guess all of them are)

it seems like falco ***** fox pretty solidly at low/mid levels, but the matchup gets much more even the higher up you go
kind of like sheik vs fox/falco

 

[BigD!!!]

i would say the opposite really

considering the rarity of the top falcos ever losing to foxes, while mid level foxes beat falcos all the time

im not saying it becomes a **** matchup, but falco asserts his dominance through consistency at the top level, while any level below that will have foxes and falcos going back and forth pretty often

 

[joeplicate]

well, the only "top fox" is really jman (colbol on a good day)
whereas for falco, there's mango, zhu, shiz, lambchops...

so you have to consider that falco's got more representation

 

[unknown522]

falco vs fox is such a detailed matchup (although I guess all of them are)

it seems like falco ***** fox pretty solidly at low/mid levels, but the matchup gets much more even the higher up you go
kind of like sheik vs fox/falco

other way around. Falcos will get ***** by fox at low-mid level. These matchups are also based off of high level.

At high level, falco is the only character that can shut down fox's close range game and long range game at the same time. Usually characters have one. Marth, sheik, and peach keep fox out at close range, which forces him to be cautious and more defensive. Falco stops fox's dash dance, lasering, and has more priority than him. Even when fox gets close he can CC -> shine -> combo most of his moves, other than drill, but it lacks range and is easy to avoid or out-prioritize. Fox doesn't really have the luxary of CCing falco, because of how broken his drill is (too much hitstun, broken hitbox, etc).

fox can take advantage of techchasing falco, since it is really easy to do. Landing the hit is more of an issue though. He can get guaranteed death combos if he tech chases correctly.

They both edgeguard the **** out of each other, though falco has a faster illusion and has a better hitbox on it.

Fox also has the CG on FD and some CP stages, but on FD, falco has absolutely guaranteed combos on fox. He also has no platforms to avoid the lasers, making it harder to get in.

I think this is the second time I've posted why falco beats fox. Maybe I should combine the two posts.

 

[BigD!!!]

jman, while i love the guy, has a losing record vs mango and chops and hasnt played shiz or zhu in tourney

 

[PB&J]

the current knowledge in melee on match ups is low..so threads like this just make alot of people look bad and opinions and some facts..just close this thread its useless

 

[joeplicate]

bigd, that's what I mean dude
jman is around chops level IMO, but he's the best fox we've got (i don't think m2k would ever go fox vs a falco)

all those other falcos beat him because they are better than him


here's the way I think of the matchup in terms of player skill and all that jazz
once falco has his basic combos down, and can go in confidently then turn a shine into a lot of damage, he'll usually beat foxes around the same level because they don't know how to play against falco's pressure/laser game

once fox learns how to shine out of shield, get out of pressure better, and be aggressive vs falco once he gets the opening, the matchup turns around (I'd consider this mid-level)

as the players get better, falco gets smarter first (usually) because he gets punished harder for being dumb
once fox gets smarter, the matchup grows very close to even at top levels



LOL at "guaranteed death combos"
like what, thunders into upthrow onto a platform? what do you do then, drill reset, tech-chase bair, or upair? follow their DI, bair again maybe, go for an edgeguard.
that's hardly guaranteed =/

fox has a lot more priority than falco IMO, bair crushes falco's cc
cc only works well if you're dumb about your approaches and rely on nair too much, otherwise it's more of a trick
lasers definitely gimp a lot of his approach game, but in close quarters it's in fox's favor because he's much faster

falco's illusion is better? are you trying to imply that falco has a better recovery than fox?
bair unconditionally ***** falco's side b, anyways

 

[JBM falcon08]

who gauges things based on skill?

this is a character matchup.

a high level pika will beat a mid level marth. yeah yeah

god smash is a joke, blaz blue is where its at.

 

[BigD!!!]

i guess where our opinions differ is our assessment of jman

i think jman is on the very top level of this game, he's gone back and forth with shiz in money matches i know and has taken a set off of mango's falco, as well as taken a set from m2k, despite having a losing record overall vs mango and m2k in tournament

thats why when i see most top falcos never losing to fox, including jman, i'm inclined to believe that falco has that on lock, despite having to work very hard to do so

 

[joeplicate]

who gauges things based on skill?

this is a character matchup.

a high level pika will beat a mid level marth. yeah yeah

god smash is a joke, blaz blue is where its at.

cool bro!!




honestly i'm not sure what to think about jman
mango has told me he's one of the 3 people he's afraid of, but he seems really inconsistent out of state

 

[JBM falcon08]

seriously though

2d fighters can be put the exact same way. tech skill is in every game and should be practiced. being better at combos than others will determine a match yes but playing smart is more important.

talk about the character matchups rather than people who play the char. fox is the best char and is capable of winning against anyone.

no hate but quit looking into the game so much. there isn't that much to look into, we all know what fox is capable of and falco, fox is obviously more capable to **** than falco so he wins.

 

[joeplicate]

what a deep analysis

i was arguing that with what you're saying though, which is that there's not enough fox representation on the highest level, and that just because falco > fox there doesn't mean the matchup is in falco's favor

 

[choknater]

what a deep anal

yeah joe ur right about jman's threat being inconsistent. he's still def that guy to fear though, like, when he gets off he gets off. he reminds me of a more aggressive cactuar, it just seems unbeatable sometimes

about fox v falco iono haha the matchup is sooo even to me, they can just do the gayest stuff to each other. stage dependent

 

[BigD!!!]

that would be true if fox ever won anything jbm

but nobody ever wins tournaments with fox, so its pretty clear that theres a little more to look at than you think there is

like you said, playing smart is the most important but combos help as well, what people are basically trying to do in this thread is gauge how smart/technical people are capable of playing, and that determines how we measure matchups

thats why we look at who is playing the character, the better the player the better the result reflects the limit of what the character is humanly capable of achieving

its pointless to look at the limitless technical potential of fox and say hes just the best character when nobody is capable of even winning a major tournament with him

you cant really look at 2d fighters in the same way because, at least in the ones im familiar with (blazblue not being one of them), there isnt really much in terms of tech skill that isnt humanly possible, most everything possible in the game is expected at any competitive level in games like street fighter

and back to my other discussion, i just think falcos slight range advantage combined with the lasers makes the difference for falco. fox needs to hit falco after his moves to hit him, while falco can pretty consistently hit through fox's

 

[unknown522]

bigd, that's what I mean dude
jman is around chops level IMO, but he's the best fox we've got (i don't think m2k would ever go fox vs a falco)

all those other falcos beat him because they are better than him


here's the way I think of the matchup in terms of player skill and all that jazz
once falco has his basic combos down, and can go in confidently then turn a shine into a lot of damage, he'll usually beat foxes around the same level because they don't know how to play against falco's pressure/laser game

As much as I hate to say it, Jman is better than chops.

LOL at "guaranteed death combos"
like what, thunders into upthrow onto a platform? what do you do then, drill reset, tech-chase bair, or upair? follow their DI, bair again maybe, go for an edgeguard.
that's hardly guaranteed =/

fox can constantly knock down falco and tech chase him, until he's high enough percent to do a combo that will send him offstage. Moves -> moves. Fox has a variety of combos. Falco shouldn't make it back from an edgeguard anyway.

fox has a lot more priority than falco IMO, bair crushes falco's cc
cc only works well if you're dumb about your approaches and rely on nair too much, otherwise it's more of a trick
lasers definitely gimp a lot of his approach game, but in close quarters it's in fox's favor because he's much faster

fox and falco **** each other up close, but it's harder for fox to get inside his lasers, then get the first hit.

Falco has more priority than fox. Go look at their hitboxes.
The other reason falco has more priority, is because he is taller, so he has more range than fox (other than shine. Fox's is bigger).

falco's illusion is better? are you trying to imply that falco has a better recovery than fox?
bair unconditionally ***** falco's side b, anyways

His illusion is better up close, because it has a faster startup and the hitbox is a lot closer from the beginning. It makes timing an edgeguard tighter than fox's. If falco is far away, then it won't matter anyway though.

Obviously fox has a better recovery than falco, because his is like twice as long as falco's and the fire hitbox from the firefox helps randomly sometimes.

Still, in this matchup, both characters shouldn't make it back anyway, when they get knocked off, unless they get a walltech somehow.

the current knowledge in melee on match ups is low..so threads like this just make alot of people look bad and opinions and some facts..just close this thread its useless

It ain't useless.

what a deep analysis

i was arguing that with what you're saying though, which is that there's not enough fox representation on the highest level, and that just because falco > fox there doesn't mean the matchup is in falco's favor

even the better fox players (rom for example) lose to falcos, or hate the matchup and go another character.

PC vs Shiz at ROM, he went peach, because he hates falco vs fox.

Dunno if KDJ faced falco there.

Edit, nvm KDJ didn't face falco in bracket.

Anyways, M2K possibly had the best fox for a long time and he doesn't want to go fox v falco either. He'd rather go sheik or marth, even though sheik is supposed to apparently lose to falco. He'd still rather use sheik over fox vs falco.

 

[joeplicate]

the key word there is "guaranteed," though. chaingrabs are guaranteed, falcon's combos are a relatively safe bet. sheik's tech chase on falcon is nearly guaranteed. Edgeguard? not guaranteed at all.

fox vs falco though? I know moves > moves, you don't have to talk down to me lol



I wouldn't want to go look at the hitboxes for priority, I know from experience. Falco uses his gun to keep fox away because he doesn't want to fight up close, it's about locking down fox, getting a shine and doing an efficient combo. Maybe falco slightly more priority in the most technical sense of the word, as in his dair will override or trade with a lot of stuff fox has, but fox is better in the up-close because he's faster. He can overwhelm better.

Crouch cancel isn't a one-step solution to this problem, either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVwVKXMjOeM
bair *****, and it ain't just mango



and what does it matter if pc hates fox vs falco? he also hates fox vs fox, he beat jman with marth at a tournament before that. this is an appeal to authority; the good players don't like the matchup, therefore it's bad. what about personal preference? what about the fact that pc has one of the best peaches in the country? he's gone peach vs hugs before (with varying success), but it doesn't mean that fox vs samus is a bad matchup for fox.

 

[unknown522]

For the guaranteed stuff, you're right it isn't guaranteed, because fox's are bad at tech chasing. A crap load of people are bad at edgeguarding. It's not because the character isn't capable of doing it with a proper setup. Those are human errors. It's a failure of execution, not that the character can't do it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVwVKXMjOeM
bair *****, and it ain't just mango



and what does it matter if pc hates fox vs falco? he also hates fox vs fox, he beat jman with marth at a tournament before that. this is an appeal to authority; the good players don't like the matchup, therefore it's bad. what about personal preference? what about the fact that pc has one of the best peaches in the country? he's gone peach vs hugs before (with varying success), but it doesn't mean that fox vs samus is a bad matchup for fox.

lol zhu. I don't have to tell zhu how to play falco, but a crap load of times he could've just CC into shine on a lot of his moves. Especially the D-tilts.

For the priority thing, maybe you just have bad spacing.

You also don't seem to understand how broken the laser and CC are.

You pull out the 1 vid out of hundreds of high level fox v falco matches where a falco gets *****. What about the other 2 matches?

About PC hating matchups is valid if you want to pull out this one vid. Otherwise, you're right.

 

[joeplicate]

nah he couldn't have shined those dtilts because they were spaced
the most he would've gotten away with was clanking with them

even if they weren't spaced, like he got the clank a couple of times and mango walked forward and did them again, they're still crazy hard to react to. this is where it gets into theorycrafting; he had one shot where he could have realistically shielded/done something else, but mango upsmashed right after. plus, if you mix up your offense in this situation (like he did), there's no reason to get cc'd

I pulled out this video out of "hundreds where falco gets *****" because it proves my point. it spring to mind, this is how I think the matchup should be played. I've seen hundreds of videos where falco controls the match with lasers and each character goes about even, maybe that's what you mean.

edit: on guaranteed stuff, again with the theorycrafting
if everyone was good enough, one shine/grab/hit with almost every character would be a "guaranteed" death combo
it's not human error, dude, it's that you have a ****ed up definition of "guaranteed"