Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]

[unknown522]

nah he couldn't have shined those dtilts because they were spaced
the most he would've gotten away with was clanking with them

even if they weren't spaced, like he got the clank a couple of times and mango walked forward and did them again, they're still crazy hard to react to. this is where it gets into theorycrafting; he had one shot where he could have realistically shielded/done something else, but mango upsmashed right after. plus, if you mix up your offense in this situation (like he did), there's no reason to get cc'd

I pulled out this video out of "hundreds where falco gets *****" because it proves my point. it spring to mind, this is how I think the matchup should be played. I've seen hundreds of videos where falco controls the match with lasers and each character goes about even, maybe that's what you mean.

edit: on guaranteed stuff, again with the theorycrafting
if everyone was good enough, one shine/grab/hit with almost every character would be a "guaranteed" death combo
it's not human error, dude, it's that you have a ****ed up definition of "guaranteed"

yes, it's definitely ****ed up because people suck at the game.

The d-tilts, zhu did f-tilt and jab to clink. They are slower moves.

Additionally, zhu never uses u-tilt, which out-prioritizes fox's aerials.

 

[joeplicate]

what, like how mango will reliably tech chase 10%-death off of one shine?
oh he doesn't, he must suck then, right

it's just not a reality in the matchup, dude
the closest we have to that is m2k, and it's definitely not even "guaranteed" when he does it

u mad

 

[unknown522]

lol, you're trying to troll me.

His fox isn't even amazing anyway.

Anyways, from what I said, the reason for "guaranteed" tech chasing, is because fox's running speed is faster than rolling speeds, other than sheik. It's the same concept on how sheik can d-throw tech chase spacies and falcon guaranteed if they don't mess up. At high level, you're not supposed to mess up this ****.

 

[joeplicate]

AND YET EVERY HIGH-LEVEL PLAYER DOES?!

what's more likely, that all the top players suck or you are mislead

guaranteed = sure to happen
in almost every tech chase, you have different options to get out
by your logic any time falcon hits peach with a weird part of upair it's "guaranteed" because he should be able to react to it, chase backwards, regrab, react to their DI on every single hit of the combo, and then kill

mango's fox has the best record against mew2king, zhu, ss...
m2k himself said that it is possibly the best

i'm not trying to troll you, ***** please

 

[Pink Reaper]

Joe, whatever you do, DON'T STOP POSTING.

Im trying to learn fox.

 

[PB&J]

pc went peach on shiz becaus e he beat him with peach before and its shiz's worst match up by far and

please explain y jman is better than chops..they are near the same level but better there is no facts only opinions in the matter

and colbol is the best fox by far and i mean by far vs falco..i wish shiz vs colbol was recorded in june

it was like best falco fox set ever besides speedn shiz

jman is really good against falco but colbol knows the match up better than anyone besides speedn and lambchops brother but they dont travel so i wont use them

fox falco is dead even and im tired of people saying other wise

m2k suks vs falco so we cant use any of his characters against this discussion..he was asking me for help in the match up at herb 2 and i only know what i learned and its still more than him..he doesnt even shine out of shiled

it ***** falco's shield pressure it like elimantes most of it.if not all..and forces falco to mind game the shine to combo or cc him but that only if mis spaced dairs nairs ect

mango's fox is his worse character and he will even tell u that.please stop with that.ive seen his shiek and falcon do much better

 

[unknown522]

ok, though you're logic is really faulty, you are right about the "guaranteed" tech chase thing not being guaranteed. People screw up, situational things happen so they can escape, etc. I guess. I went a bit overboard on a small detail, which made it look better for fox anyway, which helps my point on why falco has the advantage on fox.

You happy?

pc went peach on shiz becaus e he beat him with peach before and its shiz's worst match up by far and

please explain y jman is better than chops..they are near the same level but better there is no facts only opinions in the matter

and colbol is the best fox by far and i mean by far vs falco..i wish shiz vs colbol was recorded in june

it was like best falco fox set ever besides speedn shiz

jman is really good against falco but colbol knows the match up better than anyone besides speedn and lambchops brother but they dont travel so i wont use them

fox falco is dead even and im tired of people saying other wise

m2k suks vs falco so we cant use any of his characters against this discussion..he was asking me for help in the match up at herb 2 and i only know what i learned and its still more than him..he doesnt even shine out of shiled

it ***** falco's shield pressure it like elimantes most of it.if not all..and forces falco to mind game the shine to combo or cc him but that only if mis spaced dairs nairs ect

mango's fox is his worse character and he will even tell u that.please stop with that.ive seen his shiek and falcon do much better

Jman is better than chops, because he can consistently beat better people, that chops can't. Chops is good at 3 matchups and will always lose to other characters, unless he's grossly better than them.

Your're right, M2K does suck vs falco, but he's the best fox we've got.

believe what you want about fox v falco being even. I disagree. A lot of the world disagrees, but you are entitled to your own opinion.

 

[joeplicate]

my logic is faulty? SURRRE

you're doing the 2012 matchup chart, where everyone gets 0-death tech chases and mango's fox "sucks," along with the rest of today's best players. not that he's won countless west coast tournaments with it, beaten mew2king with it, etc. his fox might not be as good as his falco, sheik, falcon, or other secondaries, but it's still like among the top in the country



shine out of shield absolutely ***** falco, too, yeah

 

[unknown522]

I'm kind of surprised. I admitted that I was wrong on that detail, bur you can't admit that you had a lot of holes in your arguements. I could point them out, but now it's pointless, because I said that I exaggerated on the "guaranteed" thing.

falco's shine out of shield is just as good though as fox's.

I never said mango's fox sucks. I said it wasn't amazing. He's good with jiggs and falco.

 

[joeplicate]

yeah that was like a hybrid response to you + pbnj
edit: although I do think it's amazing

double edit:
i wasn't trying to construct a logically sound argument, dude. this ain't philosophy class
and it doesn't make you the bigger man for conceding to me like that, when I don't need to for whatever reason. that won't work.
and of course, yours is just a "detail," although I have a lot of holes.
are you trying to like guilt trip me here?

why?


fox has a slight advantage vs falco, that's basically all i'm saying lol

 

[unknown522]

yes...I definitely care enough try to guilt trip you.

No. you keep making incorrect posts and defending them, though you yourself know **** well that you're wrong and have many holes.

Anyways, I have spammed up this thread enough.

 

[PB&J]

shiz thinks fox has an advantage 2..and he ***** fox..y is that

chops does good against anybody jman will do good against..his worst match up is wait....he sgood vs m2k ask him..ive seen him **** m2k in friendlies plenty of times and they only playe donce in tourny and chops gave up..same tourny m2k **** jman in

chops is good against all the top 5 characters..he **** s peach and shiek..watch some chops vs any peach

even armada got the chops chu chu train son

jman is same level as chops they are good in almost all the same match ups except falco and peach

i dont know what u watch son ..three characters..2 funny

get good vs falco first..hats the only reason your saying that..shine out of shiled and **** him..god people nee dto take a learn how to fight falco class or something..i dont get it..first raynex and now u..only canada

 

[Lovage]

you fools, did someone mention florida in public? what hath u wrought



p.s. i think falco has a slight slight advantage on fox like....52 48

 

[joeplicate]

what a good way to end your streak, unknown, insulting me and then walking away because you're tired of "spamming the thread"

No. you keep making incorrect posts and defending them, though you yourself know **** well that you're wrong and have many holes.

unfounded accusations
and yet, why did you wait until now to call me out on these "incorrect posts"?
My theory: after all those posts are said and done and have dropped out of recent memory, you're trying to imply something that didn't happen. This way, there's a better chance of getting away with it. If you found something faulty with my reasoning, you should have pointed it out originally. Or, if you still care enough to, do it now, or else shut up about it.

and after genesis, I think that chops = jman or chops > jman is not out of the question

 

[Strong Badam]

jman's controller johns for Genesis are pretty legit man... he got 13th using a controller he's never used before with Fox. I wouldn't be surprised with him taking 3rd or 4th (I'm not sure if he can take Armada, but he is just about the best defensive Fox around. Depends on the bracket) at Pound 4.

 

[Razor]

chopz got beat up by scar...and scar isn't even close to jman. pbj, please stop the florida slurp. i mean, everyone thinks chops is one of the best, but jman's better.

falco probably beats fox, but it's mostly evene

 

[victra♥]

jman's controller johns for Genesis are pretty legit man... he got 13th using a controller he's never used before with Fox. I wouldn't be surprised with him taking 3rd or 4th (I'm not sure if he can take Armada, but he is just about the best defensive Fox around. Depends on the bracket) at Pound 4.

Yeah, controllers are pretty legit and he did a good job even then.

Didn't Eggz and SW have broken/lost controller johns as well? They just dropped out didn't they?

 

[otg]

man this thread went from 'kinda' gay to all out 'Gay Pride Parade' gay.

 

[RaynEX]

shiz thinks fox has an advantage 2..and he ***** fox..y is that

chops does good against anybody jman will do good against..his worst match up is wait....he sgood vs m2k ask him..ive seen him **** m2k in friendlies plenty of times and they only playe donce in tourny and chops gave up..same tourny m2k **** jman in

chops is good against all the top 5 characters..he **** s peach and shiek..watch some chops vs any peach

even armada got the chops chu chu train son

jman is same level as chops they are good in almost all the same match ups except falco and peach

i dont know what u watch son ..three characters..2 funny

get good vs falco first..hats the only reason your saying that..shine out of shiled and **** him..god people nee dto take a learn how to fight falco class or something..i dont get it..first raynex and now u..only canada

What Shiz, or other good players think about match-ups is not fact, 1st of all. This might be a surprise to you, but **** players can be wrong in melee too.

Jman places better than Chopz at almost every tournament he's attended. This is not including local tournaments that chopz or Jman have attended, because beating people you live near and have been playing for years = lol

At Genesis, the tournament where something legit happened to Jman's controller, Chopz places higher. Every other time, Jman does. Chopz is by no means bad, but records show that Jman is better, that much is obvious.

Friendlies as an indicator of who is the better player? Use tournament matches instead.

Also, I think I went about debating Fox and Falco the wrong way. Its clear to me now that you stand by your convictions, so there isn't any point in me trying to sway you. You live near some of the best Falcos in the world, while the only good Falcos I play are the ones I meet when I go to the U.S. Maybe the comfort level you have vs. Falcos like Shiz and Chopz makes you say things like "this match-up is easy everyone sucks at it". My advice would be actually ask other players on the boards what they feel the match-up is and we can go from there. (players that don't live around you, ideally)

Can I get a hell ye?

 

[BigD!!!]

hell yeah raynex

and responding to something way earlier, while falco's shine out of shield is technically as good as fox's, i believe fox's shield pressure leaves less holes in which falco can do it so its not really as reliable on falco's side of the matchup

 

[KirbyKaze]

Crouch cancel isn't a one-step solution to this problem, either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVwVKXMjOeM
bair *****, and it ain't just mango.

This would be more convincing if Zhu was crouch canceling.

The point of Crouch Cancel isn't to always punish, which is a major misconception. The purpose of Crouch Cancel is also to avoid being knocked over by the Shine, Sheik's Tilts, etc. It removes a lot of their ability to quickly push for damage, and they wind up grinding out percent.

I agree that it's not a be-all, end-all solution to Fox, but it's very good for keeping him from being able to hit you into tech chases or combos (be it Shine or D-tilt or whatever), or spam Nair / Bair in close quarters (two of his big aerials) unconditionally.

It is true that Shine out of shield wrecks up Falco's extended shield pressure, but I don't think that extended shield-pressure is very good anymore anyway. Similarly, they both have very good combo games on each other but Fox's tech chase is a lot easier to escape than Falco's combos. Fox's Shine --> Jab can be SDIed up at any percent and avoided altogether, simply teched (tech the Shine), or you can ASDI the Jab after a certain percent and avoid being reset.

Falco's combos end usually when platforms get involved, but even then Falco still seems to have the upper hand because if the opponent techs on a platform, Falco can still follow them really easily because of the reduced space.

Fox seems to have an easier time with straight-up KO moves, because of his ability to throw --> KO move (Bair or otherwise). His platform camping also also very good defensively, although it also seems to sacrifice a lot of approaching ability.

Not sure what the matchup is, though, just some stuff to consider.

 

[Meru.]

Are you sure Peach-Jiggly is 60-40 for Jiggly. I find it hard to believe personally.

 

[Life After Death]

pb&j on chops account-

when was chops and jman at the same tourny ..chops didnt go to all the mahors tha jman did

after the first round of jman losing 2 axe, i personllay gave him shiz's controller and he was loving it..yeah him and chops messed the whole genesis bracket up..chops places top 3 locals ur correct..but these so called local people all place top 20 at genesis..even our like average player raistlin got 9th at genesis..and hes not even like top 20 in fl..plus like 10 people or more got top 20..these locas ***** more than any region at genesis

yeah chops lost 2 scar and darkrain,but he was choking just like jman lost to axe ..a person who got 4 stocked second round

chops can go even with any person jman can..think they are same level at least or best

i was hyping fl up alot-and look what they did at genesi..had m2k forfiet to us in crew saying we were 2 stacked

 

[unknown522]

^ pretty sure it's because darkrain was added in the mix, while a lot of EC's good players weren't there

what a good way to end your streak, unknown, insulting me and then walking away because you're tired of "spamming the thread"


unfounded accusations
and yet, why did you wait until now to call me out on these "incorrect posts"?
My theory: after all those posts are said and done and have dropped out of recent memory, you're trying to imply something that didn't happen. This way, there's a better chance of getting away with it. If you found something faulty with my reasoning, you should have pointed it out originally. Or, if you still care enough to, do it now, or else shut up about it.

and after genesis, I think that chops = jman or chops > jman is not out of the question

don't flatter yourself.

Are you sure Peach-Jiggly is 60-40 for Jiggly. I find it hard to believe personally.

it's probably closer, but I am sure jiggs wins the matchup.

pb&j on chops account-

when was chops and jman at the same tourny ..chops didnt go to all the mahors tha jman did

after the first round of jman losing 2 axe, i personllay gave him shiz's controller and he was loving it..yeah him and chops messed the whole genesis bracket up..chops places top 3 locals ur correct..but these so called local people all place top 20 at genesis..even our like average player raistlin got 9th at genesis..and hes not even like top 20 in fl..plus like 10 people or more got top 20..these locas ***** more than any region at genesis

yeah chops lost 2 scar and darkrain,but he was choking just like jman lost to axe ..a person who got 4 stocked second round

chops can go even with any person jman can..think they are same level at least or best

I can use playing bad johns and controller johns for lots of people including myself.

 

[raychun1]

falco is garbage. who cares how he does against fox? it's played out over and over, and ppl still debate who wins. the matchup chart needs to update falco vs ganon and falco vs samus. falco gets powned by ganon and goes even with samus. it's true

and major lulz at chopz "choking" against scar. scar's last combo on chopz was incredible. chopz is like my fav falco, but that insane combo was **** and give scar some credit. it was last stock for both and scar pullz some mufasa **** out of his azz.

btw, i think sheik beats puff like 60-40. more or less the same numbers for sheik vs peach. i don't think it's quite even. even the best peach players think that sheik has a noticeable advantage.

 

[unknown522]

^ Most of the good sheik and peach mains think that it's close to even.

puff v sheik, M2K thinks it's **** for puff, but I disagree. Puff does limit a lot of sheik's play though, just with simply crouching. Sheik has to play really gay to keep up with puff.

 

[Life After Death]

i def know alot of match ups. but i dont travel enough to be compared to the top players. so until i get a job im not gonna do any damage oos tourneys. but im still planning on goign to allot of oos liek forward did so expect me to go everywhere in the nation sometime late this year or early next year.

 

[unknown522]

sounds sick. Do it up.

I'm still looking for a job right now, so that I can travel to more US tourneys.

 

[idea]

eh...i'm really unsure about sheik-puff. i only ever play KK and he must know the matchup pretty well by now. also he's better than me. but this matchup definitely doesn't go past 6-4 in either direction.

puff actually manages to cancel out a lot of the hilarious crap sheik can do to most characters with her own dumb things...but at the same time, sheik's aerials are really tough to get past. specifically bair and fair. jiggs can crouch under most things, and rest easily...sheik can camp really well, and grab at high percent guarantees a kill move. bair + needles is a pretty solid strategy and i don't see most sheiks trying anything this simple/boring =P

if sheik doesn't camp jiggs then it's definitely in jiggs' favour. are most sheiks doing this?

anyway...i'd tentatively put it as 55-45 for jiggs. needs more matchup data.

edit: and i agree on jiggs-peach, jiggs wins that by a little. easier to play against her than sheik, i'd say...and again, not worse than 6-4.

 

[LuCKy]

lol, you're trying to troll me.

His fox isn't even amazing anyway.

Anyways, from what I said, the reason for "guaranteed" tech chasing, is because fox's running speed is faster than rolling speeds, other than sheik. It's the same concept on how sheik can d-throw tech chase spacies and falcon guaranteed if they don't mess up. At high level, you're not supposed to mess up this ****.

WHATTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT


Duddddeeee my fox can beat m2ks marth

and beat his marth twice on fd twice in like 10 mins haha

ANDDDD i 3-0 jman in a 4 dollar mm fox dittto (all of this is when my fox has warmed up)

I dont use fox 2 do u all a favor..

U n1ggas couldnt handle the blue fox *stretch*

***** SAID MY FOX ISNT AMAZING

adjahdahdadadjadjadj

Im winning pound 4 with fox


-mango

 

[Strong Badam]

i'll lol when mango gets sent into losers using his fox and then goes puff so he can win :D

 

[strawhats]

Yeah try that when m2k goes fox ditto and then lose. In fact try that w/. armada and get ***** mango. Im telling you stick w/. puff and falco. And more times than not m2k will winagainst fox w/. his marth.

P.S. m2k's marth is not the same marth remember that. You're lucky this is not m2k in 08. You're spacies would probably not wim. But hey u always have puff to **** w/. so what does it really matter.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Prime arguments about M2K's skill are not relevant to the discussion of the thread.

PB&J, it is not fair to use "playing bad johns" to justify Chops losing to Scar and Darkrain but then say it's wrong for Jman to use those in his matches with Chops or Axe. Especially when there are controller issues present.

The only thing I feel very confident in, specifically pertaining to Fox vs Falco, is that Fox does not win. I understand people disagree, and I would like to know why.

Thus far I've heard that Fox can Shine out of extended shield pressure, thus forcing Falco to land an abstract move (Dair, Shine, Nair) to get a combo (since he has a weak grab game, this gives Fox's shield game a lot more power) and KO him easier. His faster jump speed allows his moves to beat Falco's moves, provided he starts his moves at the same time or earlier (Falco has to plan to have his moves win). His better speed also affords him a superior platform camp.

The counter-argument so far is that Falco can pressure safely with spaced lasers and brief bursts of Shine --> retreat aerial, and double Shines (not more than 2; more than 2 is unsafe vs frame perfect Fox, which we'll never have to deal with, but it deserves mention). He also racks damage easier by having a Shine that combos or knocks over regardless of crouch cancel, and forces him to do more single hits because of his own crouch which slows Fox's game down significantly enough for Falco to out-damage and eventually out-kill him, despite not having as good KO setups (namely, lack of u-throw).

Is there anything to add to that?

 

[joeplicate]

don't flatter yourself.

omg ur dumb


strawhats, you don't know who you're talking to.
it's not like mango has played m2k in the finals of every big tournament for two years, and you're basing off youtube videos.

oh wait



kirbykaze, i'm glad that you can actually talk well instead of getting butthurt over little things lol
i just don't see cc as being that good, in jman vs chops (i think), he shined him and went for the jab to reset, then saw he was ccing and did like 3 more waveshine to jabs. even after a crouch cancel in this situation, fox can turn it into glorified shield pressure because he just keeps hitting him, and just about every fox is comfortable moving fast this way.

I think it's in fox's favor (slightly) because he can nair shine nair shine in falco's face without any realistic answer. cc is unreliable, and mixing up shield pressure with fox leaves falco with no options up close. although fox's combos aren't guaranteed (what is), he can get big damage off a grab, gimp falcos up b at any time, and bair or downsmash just about every situation he would illusion in.

with a good shine out of shield game, fox can counteract falco's shield pressure, and once falco gets in close on fox it becomes a matter of falco outsmarting him. since he has a worse shield pressure/up close game, falco has a harder time landing a shine, when fox can shine into tech chase grab a more easily because he has an easier set up. falco's shine oos isn't as useful as fox's. lasers control space/help set up combos, but good foxes won't get phased when they have to be fast between lasers; the matchup gets decided when the characters are in each other's faces, and that's what fox has to execute. realistically there's nothing stopping him from doing that.

tl;dr
fox has more options in the up-close game because he's faster.

 

[JPOBS]

why isnt falco's shine oos as useful exactly?

 

[Blatt Blvd]

joe just because mango lives near you doesn't mean you know everything and your word is the end all.

falco beats fox.

its the only matchup fox definitely loses in.

barely, but he does lose.

 

[joeplicate]

i never said it was, dude, calm down

i think falco's shine oos isn't as useful because fox is a faster character; he's got more mixups on shield pressure, and all his moves have less lag to punish. plus fox can shine out of almost every aerial falco does, if they time it wrong it's really easy too. falco's leads to more options but it's harder to land just based off character properties

it's a risk vs reward thing, fox's being "better" is mostly my opinion
falco's is harder to do but has more options out of it
fox's is easy to get but you need to tech chase afterwards

 

[Razor]

joe replicate is sorta right about the upclose options. but let's be clear, a slight disadvantage means slight. it doesn't mean fox can't overcome it. i can think of way worse matchups for other characters

 

[Blatt Blvd]

falco can 0 to death fox with a shine oos.

fox just creates a knockdown mixup on falco(and a possible, but not likely KO if falco is near the ledge).

theyre both good options out of shield,
Falco's shine oos may be better vs other chars as opposed to fox's shine oos, but falco's shine oos gets the edge here in the Fox/Falco matchup.

 

[joeplicate]

yeah that's what I mean though, "useful" is a subjective term
I think it's "better" because fox's is more reliable to get off
other people may think falco's is better because it leads to more punishment
*shrug*