Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]

[Dark Sonic]

Btw, you going to FL gaming? (I can't go to gigs)

I should be going (unless Raistlin decides not to go, he's typically my ride to tournaments)

i can do it pretty consistently with jpuff so i think samus could it too. I dont have any frame date or anything to back me up so i could be wrong though.

Jigglpuff has a higher fall speed acceleration than Samus, as well as a larger ledgegrab range and less overall distance to fall (due to being shorter).

Light shield edgehogging is the result of many factors comming together. Only 2 characters can do it without fast falling (if the Marth sweetspots frame perfectly <_<), and there are undoubtedly some that can't do it even WITH fast falling. I believe that Samus may be such a case because of her height and not so fast fast fall. Feel free to prove me wrong though.

Samus can ledgehop nair while marth is recovering if timed right (it's not that hard) and hit him in the middle of the up-b. Walltech can screw it over though.

Marth should always be trying to tech when recovering (there's no reason NOT to <_<). Stage spikes are not reliable edgeguards against any decent player because unfortunately, teching is just as easy for Marth as timing the nair is for Samus.

You can also let him go on the stage and d-air -> charge beam / b-air. I'm sure after knocking marth off the stage, you will have enough time to charge the beam.

He can DI the dair to not get baired back off the stage (charge beam will work anyway though).

And I can't help but notice that all of these examples are only applicable if Marth if Marth is at the very edge of recovery range. With good DI and with the shear distance covered with Marth's full recovery (second jump, side B stall, and up B), that simply should not be happening that often.

Perhaps I'm over simplifying things. People do get hit out of second jumps, but still. Every time Marth makes it back onto the stage he gets all of his options back, and he's quite a few good mixups for recovering.

 

[Strong Badam]

I didn't assume Tier lists were in any way based on tournament standings, because those measure the strength of the player more then it does the strength of the character.

clearly
but the SBR are kinda dumb, so yeah.

 

[Magus420]

I'm pretty sure everyone can do the lightshield fastfall edgehog on Marth, unless their traction is too low to even slip off the edge from the hit in the first place.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I'm pretty sure everyone can do the lightshield fastfall edgehog on Marth, unless their traction is too low to even slip off the edge from the hit in the first place.

Meh, it's still not that big a deal for Samus (she gets...a nair?)

 

[4% APR]

I'm pretty sure everyone can do the lightshield fastfall edgehog on Marth, unless their traction is too low to even slip off the edge from the hit in the first place.

yeah that's the impression i was under. Who would fall into that category though?

she could ledgehop dair to something i guess, idk, nothing very good for her from it

 

[unknown522]

He can DI the dair to not get baired back off the stage (charge beam will work anyway though).

And I can't help but notice that all of these examples are only applicable if Marth if Marth is at the very edge of recovery range. With good DI and with the shear distance covered with Marth's full recovery (second jump, side B stall, and up B), that simply should not be happening that often.

Perhaps I'm over simplifying things. People do get hit out of second jumps, but still. Every time Marth makes it back onto the stage he gets all of his options back, and he's quite a few good mixups for recovering.

If marth is recovering high, then why not just shoot him in the face? Marth's Aerials don't beat the charge shot. Missles can force him to jump for attack them, leaving himself wide open.

 

[Dark Sonic]

If marth is recovering high, then why not just shoot him in the face? Marth's Aerials don't beat the charge shot. Missles can force him to jump for attack them, leaving himself wide open.

he can also just fast fall under the missles and side B stall to cancel the fast fall momentum <_<. Recovering AT stage level where you can't shoot him, but he still has options like airdodging onto the stage, second jumping to grab the ledge, fast fall up B sweetspotting, ect, ect.

He could fast fall under the charge shot too<_<.

If Marth isn't litterally near his limit for recovery distance, then actually KILLING him with Samus's edgeguarding should be quite difficult. Getting a few free hits in the opposite direction is easy though <_< Samus has no reliable method of FORCING Marth into these situations. Marth can play mixups with you and swat the missles risking a charge shot to the face for being predictable, or he can just ignore the missles and go around them while recovering pretty much how he was going to from the begining.

 

[unknown522]

lol, that means you're getting mindgamed. That stuff doesn't work on good players too often.

 

[Afro_Chris]

lol, That Means You're Getting Mindgamed. That Stuff Doesn't Work On Good Players Too Often.

Lol Get *****

 

[Divinokage]

It was 1-1 for our pizza match.

We then just called it a 5 dollar money match, where i ended up winning the set.

It's a story i tell quite often, I remember it vividly.
I tried winning some easy pizza off a "noob". I put up 10 dollars for your 1 slice of pizza, to where you 3 stocked me the first match, and thankfully plank kicked us all of the TV's so that I could get my head over how this ganon I've never heard of just 3 stocked me

But i still won the set.

Yes you did.. =P GG. =P

 

[DippnDots]

I think we should cover a new match up, we've come to the consensus that samus vs marth sucks for samus.

I personally would like to explore pichu on falco.

 

[4% APR]

that MIGHT be one of pichu's more winnable matchups.

 

[wool]

that MIGHT be one of Pichu's more winnable matchups.

Agreed but I still wouldn't say that Pichu should have an advantage over Falco. It just is relatively a good match up for Pichu.

Falco's laser game gets dimished if Pichu is ducking (making it hard for the average Falco player to hit Pichu with the lasers). Pichu, with his first fh jump, can DI really far and get close to Falco within seconds, making Falco's laser game almost stupid to try.

uairs, fairs->utilts, chaingrabs...
shffl nairs not so much since Falco's shffl nairs i think may out prioritize Pichu's.

The Falco players I know almost always go on the offensive (and I'm pretty sure that is what most Falco players do anyway). If you shield their first approach and get in a grab, fair, or nair, I think Pichu will have a good chance to win against Falco.

Also one of Pichu's main disadvantages is that he is so light, and can get KOed at like 60-70 percent. Against Falco that percentage rises up since Falco only has the f-smash and the bair (whereas other chars. usually have more). Both hit to the side also and with Pichu's massive recovery it isn't much of a problem.

I'd give it a 30-70 (Pichu with the 30 obviously).

 

[MaNg0]

i like how u guys say its winnable

but in the end its only 30 percent

hahahah poor pichu

 

[4% APR]

30 for pichu is fine by his standards haha

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

idk pichu won't get any grabs on falco and pichu doesn't really have much to approach with or start a combo with

 

[DippnDots]

It's not impossible to get a grab on falco, you're right on the approach, he has nothing essentially. You can combo nairs and uairs though for a good 15% !!!!!!!

Full hop in to a jab fury is great if they don't expect it, you just can't do much after unless they're dumb and roll

 

[wool]

idk pichu won't get any grabs on falco and pichu doesn't really have much to approach with or start a combo with

fh jolt, WLforward->grab
shffl fair->grab
shffl dair->chase, grab
harder but shffl nair->chase, grab

Plenty of ways to grab if done properly. Of course that also depends on the huge factor of mind games.

Approaching is hard, have to agree with that. But since Pichu has amazing bursts of speed it shouldn't be impossible.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

ok, then goto a tourney and grab an above average falco.

 

[pockyD]

i do like the "chase => grab" combo

 

[Blatt Blvd]

yeah, its standard protocol.

 

[wool]

You guys saying that it is impossible to grab Falco with Pichu or something? Your being pretty idiotic if that's what your saying. All I was saying is that it is possible and happens more likely than people think. Just take a look at Pichu vids or something if you don't believe me.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

the reason you see no high level pichu's is becuase you can't grab falco(or any other competent player or higher tiered character).

its pretty obvious youre coming to melee from playing brawl.

 

[JPOBS]

i have to take the side of flibz here

certainly you wont be sheild grabbing a competant falco any time soon, but tech chase grabs from any hit are not hard at all, even the best players in the world have the same 4 options as complete scrubs when they have to tech, and a lucky guess or strategic read lead to easy grabs

so a good pichu (lol they exist?) can certainly get a grab of some sort on a good falco.

congrats, now for his other 3 stocks >_>

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCDlQKsVX_I

kdj's pichu gets 2 stocked by a random (horrible) falco

 

[wool]

the reason you see no high level pichu's is becuase you can't grab falco(or any other competent player or higher tiered character).

its pretty obvious youre coming to melee from playing brawl.

Actually I've never played brawl in my life. I heard it sucked and so I didn't play it.
So before you randomly blabber try and get your facts straight.

EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oC74-uDN5F4&feature=related

For you Sveet. Same Falco. Same Pichu. Pichu gets easy grabs. Its all mindgames anyway.

 

[unknown522]

I dunno why we are discussing This matchup is stupidly impossible vs a good falco. Let's be serious people.

- Pichu's moves all lose to falco

- CC -> Shine is ****,

- Pichu has no damage output.

- Pichu's tech roll sucks, so falco can tech chase pichu.

- Pichu dies at less percent than jigglypuff.

All pichu has is a 20 - 30 damage combo which you will rarely hit. Do you think real falco players such as shiz, zhu, eggm, etc will ever lose to a pichu?

anyways, 9-1 for falco.

 

[Rannskita]

this matchup isnt as impossible for pichu as many other characters he has to play... but i agree with unknown, dont get confused with pichu not being utterly destroyed, with him being a 70-30 falco. basically what was said already, its a 15-85 at best for pichu, most likely 10-90

 

[unknown522]

^ I'm glad to see you get the point.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Kirby falco is 35-65 :D

 

[KirbyKaze]

Kirby has a duck.

And ducks are birds.

So Falco loses his avian advantage!

 

[Dark Sonic]

lol, that means you're getting mindgamed. That stuff doesn't work on good players too often.

Dude I don't actually get hit by it <_<. Because I know a solution that works regardless of how well the Samus player predicts me. I don't have to do anything different for the situation (missle coming at me).

Notice I said I could swat the missle and risk a charge shot to the face. Or, I could do the smart option that I listed immediately after <_<

Which one do you think I do (considering that I listed the counter myself <_<)

learn2read

 

[Pink Reaper]

Kirby has a duck.

And ducks are birds.

So Falco loses his avian advantage!

**** that, Kirby has the Short Hop Double Falco Lasers, the one thing no one in the entirety of existence has ever wanted any character to have ever. Ever.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Actually I've never played brawl in my life. I heard it sucked and so I didn't play it.
So before you randomly blabber try and get your facts straight.

EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oC74-uDN5F4&feature=related

For you Sveet. Same Falco. Same Pichu. Pichu gets easy grabs. Its all mindgames anyway.

That Falco was so bad, it's not even funny. He recovered the EXACT same way every time. Double jump > phantasm.

 

[wool]

this matchup isnt as impossible for pichu as many other characters he has to play... but i agree with unknown, dont get confused with pichu not being utterly destroyed, with him being a 70-30 falco. basically what was said already, its a 15-85 at best for pichu, most likely 10-90

Okay I got to agree. I got carried away a bit. 30 for Pichu is a no. But it is definitely one of Pichu's good match ups (not saying much though, since all of Pichu's match ups suck).

 

[KirbyKaze]

**** that, Kirby has the Short Hop Double Falco Lasers, the one thing no one in the entirety of existence has ever wanted any character to have ever. Ever.

I wanted Fox to have those.

 

[Pink Reaper]

I wanted Sheik to have those.

 

[idea]

I wanted Sheik to have those.

dthrow, double laser, grab, repeat

 

[KirbyKaze]

I wanted Sheik to have those.

die low tiers die

 

[DippnDots]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCDlQKsVX_I

kdj's pichu gets 2 stocked by a random (horrible) falco

is that a tournament match? Doubtful, and just cause it's KDJ doesn't mean his pichu is good. He doesn't space very well in that match. You can't base a match up on a video that appears to be him ****ing around.


Edit: Surprised this went for a page and a half before digressing.


Next matchup: Doc vs Marth, someone get 18spikes in here.