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Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]

Pi

Pi

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Idea said:
really? what about spaced fsmash? that seems like it would leave you a little too far away...
Click to expand...
Well I know samus leaves her canon arm out there, but generally speaking spacing smashes offers a lot less vulnerability, I don't think even a top level puff is gonna be confident resting a spaced Fsmash from samus, possible? maybe, but idk

And yea, I pretty much don't grab in puff matchup, at all, consequence for missing outweighs the...like pummel + throw + nair

It's fun playing puff though, but I always walk away from a loss feeling stupid for getting punished for missed attacks, but then I played her and realized how easy it was to punish pretty much any move your opponent misses, it's good training for not throwing out moves that don't hit for sure
 
Fortress | Sveet

Fortress | Sveet

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spaced fsmashes are hard/impossible but if they miss their spacing, you can rest. basically vs samus (in any matchup) you can camp your shield. if you see her grabbing, just SH over it and punish the lag however you want. if she hits your shield w/ a smash or something you can SH out and punish. when they start jabbing you have to get out of your shield (or upb/usmash/shine)
 
Pi

Pi

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rofl oh nooooooooooooo samusssssssssssssss
lol it's all good
i'll play some more people see if i can figure out ways around some of the **** hindering her
 
Fortress | Sveet

Fortress | Sveet

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in the update:

marth 35 - 65 sheik

wtf? its not that broken of a matchup. 40-60 or 45-55. if your marth is just a pickup then yea maybe its 30-70 or something, but if the marth knows what he is doing he can and will **** sheik just as much.

"they both combo each other great its just marth has to space and sheik can just get in on marth"

and marth is even vs fox and falco??? pretty sure marth is 55-45 fox and 60-40 falco (or 55-45)
 
Skler

Skler

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Link does poorly vs Mario, Doc, Young Link and Luigi and goes even with ICs. Mario and doc should be maybe 40 for Link, same with YL. Luigi I'd stick at 45 because he's iffy.

IC's aren't bad if Link jumps around while pulling bombs all day. He only loses on stages like YS and FD where there isn't enough room to camp a lot. He wins so hard on Rainbow Cruise it isn't even funny.

I'd explain the Marios but it boils down to them being faster and better.
 
unknown522

unknown522

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^ really? but move (priority) spam + sword is really good vs the marios. Well, I'm sure doc has the advantage, mario seems to be crapier vs link. I also agree about luigi having the advantage. Dunno about link vs ICs being even. I have no idea about that matchup. I figured that link was easy to grab, but maybe not.

I figure you're really good at the matchups, so I'll take your word for it.
 
Zankoku

Zankoku

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Hi, since this is an updated matchup chart, I decided to run it through Mogwai's old tier list formula and see what happens. For the thread about it, go here:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=100240

This is the non-weighted calculated tier list (one iteration):
Code: 
TOP
---
Sheik			7.29
Fox			7.06
Falco			7.06
Marth			7.04

HIGH
---
Purin			6.67
C. Falcon		6.58
Peach			6.46
Ganon			6.42

MID
---
Samus			5.90
Dr. Mario		5.63
Ice Climbers		5.60
Donkey Kong		5.58
Luigi			5.33
Pikachu			5.29
Mario			5.23
Link			5.15

LOW
---
Y. Link			4.42
Mr. Game & Watch	3.90
Zelda			3.65
Koopa			3.33
Mewtwo			3.27
Roy			3.19

BOTTOM
---
Ness			2.71
Yoshi			2.54
Kirby			2.38
Pichu			2.17
and this is the weighted tier list (infinite iterations until stable):
Code: 
TOP
---
Sheik			6.28
Fox			6.07
Falco			6.06
Marth			5.87
Purin			5.74

HIGH
---
C. Falcon		5.41
Peach			5.36
Ganondorf		5.29

MID
---
Samus			4.74
Dr. Mario		4.52
Donkey Kong		4.47
Ice Climbers		4.46
Pikachu			4.27
Luigi			4.23
Mario			4.20
Link			4.14

LOW
---
Young Link		3.30
Mr. Game & Watch	2.66
Zelda			2.51
Koopa			2.19
Roy			2.07
Mewtwo			2.06

BOTTOM
---
Ness			1.77
Yoshi			1.53
Kirby			1.42
Pichu			1.29
Enjoy.
 
unknown522

unknown522

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I understand. I actually was going to put fox v doc as 6:4 and vs falco 65:35. I honestly wasn't sure what to do with those. They seem harder than 6:4 though. But yeah, it will be changed to 6:4.

Edit: lol fail revision or something. Marth v doc is supposed to be 7:3 and falco is supposed to be 6:4. Must've entered it wrong.

Eric, do you mind changing them?: Fox and falco vs doc as 6:4 disadvantage. Leave marth for now I guess.
 
SonuvaBeach

SonuvaBeach

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Divinokage said:
I don't think they have the correct input on that one. =P Unless M2k beats Chu all the time with Sheik??
Click to expand...
I really haven't read through the whole thread, but I'm sure the case is that Sheik has the advantage in everything except punishment and should be able to prevent IC's from getting a grab AKA stock.

The problem, as Trail will tell and shows, is that IC's can get under Sheik's high short hop and ****. Also, when playing a good IC 1 grab = stock. That leaves very little room for mistakes. One missed d-smash, or bad spacing and IC's super fast WD OoS - death.

I'm sure it has been discussed, and I don't really have much input or experience at high levels. Just blabbering. :)
 
Strong Badam

Strong Badam

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nearly all of the changes made to DK's match-up's do not make sense.
other than the Samus & Ganon match-ups. I haven't looked at Luigi & lower yet tho, maybe there are some good changes lol.
 
Rat

Rat

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Some of the samus numbers are wrong.

Ganon and Marth have the same number? Are you joking? While shiek is even harder? This is wrong.
Samus as some options against Ganon whereas against Marth she has very very few options. Same goes for shiek.

I say
Marth 25-75
Shiek 30-70
Ganon 45-55


You should do:
Marth 30-70
Shiek 35-65
Ganon 40-60
 
SonuvaBeach

SonuvaBeach

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Rat said:
You have the samus numbers wrong.

Ganon and Marth have the same number? Are you joking? While shiek is even harder? This is wrong.

I say
Marth 25-75
Shiek 30-70
Ganon 45-55


You should do:
Marth 30-70
Shiek 35-65
Ganon 40-60
Click to expand...
Samus vs Sheik is pretty bad. Need more convincing? watch this

Marth is bad too, but I do think Sheik is worse.
 
Zankoku

Zankoku

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Drephen is most assuredly better than Watty, though. And I think Rat knows what he's talking about.
 
x After Dawn x

x After Dawn x

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Yeah both Fox and Falco should stay 60:40. Obviously spacies are always amazing against lower tier characters below high tier but Doc Mario surprisingly has many options to counter spacies, like chaingrab, upsmash into like anything, uair into like fsmash or fair, and let's not forget that mean cape for edgeguarding and reflecting Falco's lasers.

Falco should not be 65:35, his lasers actually aren't that good vs Doc Mario even though they would seem they would. If you watch any pro match of Doc vs Falco, you'll know what I mean. Plus, Doc can cape back 2 lasers for every cape he does, and you don't even have to time it well. And let's not forget uairs or combos, in general > fsmash or downsmash will pretty much always leave Falco too far away to even recover, and if he can, he'll usually JUST reach the edge in which case you can probably just edgehog or cape him.

60:40 sounds about right IMO, 65:35 isn't too far off either but honestly Doc can turn the tables VERY quickly in this matchup so I would say 60:40.
 
Divinokage

Divinokage

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Ganon ***** Samus hard. Punch missiles.. you can space better and edgeguard better too. It's a matchup I barely lose and I have played almost every Samus out there, even Hugs which I 3 stocked twice at Pound 3 lol.
 
DippnDots

DippnDots

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Tr3MoR said:
Samus vs Sheik is pretty bad. Need more convincing? watch this

Marth is bad too, but I do think Sheik is worse.
Click to expand...
That video isn't good proof because A. Drephen and Watty live together, have been playing each other for a very long time, thus, drew knows him inside and out. B. Drephen is on a slightly higher level than watty, their skill isn't equal.


<333 wattyman
 
P

Plairnkk

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Divinokage said:
So ICs have the advantage vs Sheik? I don't know the matchup so someone needs to elaborate on this.
Click to expand...
Yeah, one grab=entire stock. Not only can they CG you with two in 6+ different ways (i asked chu to show me all the ways to cg sheik once) they can CG with just a single IC. Say sheik knocks nana away but popo gets a grab, you just standard cg with popo til nana comes back then **** sheik to death. Not only this but IC's do very well with uairs when opponents are above them. Sheik does very poor with people below her, so these dont work out well. If sheik tries to sh IC's can get in under a lot of times and combo her upwards very easily. If you try to space ic's can WD in with a crouch cancel and smash at low %'s a lot of times.

I'm not saying it's **** for ic's, probably 60-40 or 55-45, but clearly not in sheiks advantage.
 
Rubyiris

Rubyiris

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Sheik's Needles and Dsmash are decent vs Ics.

Though as a Sheik secondary, I almost always use Zelda vs Ics.
 
Pi

Pi

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Was playing Skratch's ganon...and he Fair'd my FCS....

I have pretty minimal ganon experience, but I can tell you that it's not on part w/ marth
Samus's aerial game isn't completely shut down like in the marth matchup
Marth has just as much options vs missiles
Marth has a less punishable recovery
Marth is faster
 
Divinokage

Divinokage

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knihT said:
Was playing Skratch's ganon...and he Fair'd my FCS....

I have pretty minimal ganon experience, but I can tell you that it's not on part w/ marth
Samus's aerial game isn't completely shut down like in the marth matchup
Marth has just as much options vs missiles
Marth has a less punishable recovery
Marth is faster
Click to expand...
Let me show you how it's done, and you will slowly feel despair... lol.
 
SonuvaBeach

SonuvaBeach

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Rubyiris said:
Sheik's Needles and Dsmash are decent vs Ics.

Though as a Sheik secondary, I almost always use Zelda vs Ics.
Click to expand...
Sheik's needles are great. D-smash is alright until they shield is just 1 time, WD OoS --> grab --> stock. It works great when you know it will hit, but the one time you mess it up you lose a stock.

And I see what you guys are saying about Watty. I wasn't aware.
 
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