Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]

[Divinokage]

o k o k i got u
you should like...come to tipped off 5, or better yet, Florida Gaming
lol (GA/FL tourneys)

Probably not gonna happen because I'm out of money right now.

 

[Pi]

Probably not gonna happen because I'm out of money right now.

shoulda juss won genesis, mirite?

salright, i got linguini to play round here

mm genesis v2

 

[unknown522]

sheik beating IC?

*scratches head*

XD

I don't think they have the correct input on that one. =P Unless M2k beats Chu all the time with Sheik??

apparently he does, but he goes marth in tourneys.

nearly all of the changes made to DK's match-up's do not make sense.
other than the Samus & Ganon match-ups. I haven't looked at Luigi & lower yet tho, maybe there are some good changes lol.

k

Some of the samus numbers are wrong.

Ganon and Marth have the same number? Are you joking? While shiek is even harder? This is wrong.
Samus as some options against Ganon whereas against Marth she has very very few options. Same goes for shiek.

I say
Marth 25-75
Shiek 30-70
Ganon 45-55


You should do:
Marth 30-70
Shiek 35-65
Ganon 40-60

other than ganon, that's how it was before, but everyone says sheik is harder than marth.

Yeah both Fox and Falco should stay 60:40. Obviously spacies are always amazing against lower tier characters below high tier but Doc Mario surprisingly has many options to counter spacies, like chaingrab, upsmash into like anything, uair into like fsmash or fair, and let's not forget that mean cape for edgeguarding and reflecting Falco's lasers.

Falco should not be 65:35, his lasers actually aren't that good vs Doc Mario even though they would seem they would. If you watch any pro match of Doc vs Falco, you'll know what I mean. Plus, Doc can cape back 2 lasers for every cape he does, and you don't even have to time it well. And let's not forget uairs or combos, in general > fsmash or downsmash will pretty much always leave Falco too far away to even recover, and if he can, he'll usually JUST reach the edge in which case you can probably just edgehog or cape him.

60:40 sounds about right IMO, 65:35 isn't too far off either but honestly Doc can turn the tables VERY quickly in this matchup so I would say 60:40.

k

No, chu has never to this day lost a serious set to a Sheik player.

M2K should use sheik vs him.

Yeah, one grab=entire stock. Not only can they CG you with two in 6+ different ways (i asked chu to show me all the ways to cg sheik once) they can CG with just a single IC. Say sheik knocks nana away but popo gets a grab, you just standard cg with popo til nana comes back then **** sheik to death. Not only this but IC's do very well with uairs when opponents are above them. Sheik does very poor with people below her, so these dont work out well. If sheik tries to sh IC's can get in under a lot of times and combo her upwards very easily. If you try to space ic's can WD in with a crouch cancel and smash at low %'s a lot of times.

I'm not saying it's **** for ic's, probably 60-40 or 55-45, but clearly not in sheiks advantage.

k

Probably not gonna happen because I'm out of money right now.

What happened to your infinite dollars?

 

[x After Dawn x]

Some of the samus numbers are wrong.

Ganon and Marth have the same number? Are you joking? While shiek is even harder? This is wrong.
Samus as some options against Ganon whereas against Marth she has very very few options. Same goes for shiek.

I say
Marth 25-75
Shiek 30-70
Ganon 45-55


You should do:
Marth 30-70
Shiek 35-65
Ganon 40-60

Agreed. But don't worry, most of this list is wrong anyway.

 

[Pi]

Sheik has an easier time gimping samus
Sheik has grab -> death combo's
Sheik has projectiles that compete w/ samus's
Sheik doesn't rely on laggy moves for kills (Fsmash)
Samus's shield and grab are more effective vs. marth

I have minimal vs. sheik experience, but these seem like some reasons the matchup could be harder

 

[DippnDots]

sheik can't really kill samus with a grab until relatively normal KO percents(unless she gets that usmash tip), sure she's gurenteed a hit or three from a grab but it's not instant death. And I don't think your last reason is very good either. Samus can CC better against sheik than marth which is definitely a plus to the match up. I'd say it's easier to edgeguard sheik than marth too, you can just edgehog and force her to recover onto the stage, ledgehop to a dsmash or something.

 

[Pi]

sheik can't really kill samus with a grab until relatively normal KO percents(unless she gets that usmash tip), sure she's gurenteed a hit or three from a grab but it's not instant death. And I don't think your last reason is very good either. Samus can CC better against sheik than marth which is definitely a plus to the match up. I'd say it's easier to edgeguard sheik than marth too, you can just edgehog and force her to recover onto the stage, ledgehop to a dsmash or something.

I meant that when samus is in KO range, sheik can get a grab -> Fair/Uair to kill whereas marth doesn't have that option.

I don't thing samus being able to CC sheik slightly more effectively than marth is much in the way of benefits >.>

And as far as edge guarding goes...couldn't I do the exact same thing to marth that I could to sheik..? Not to mention drop down Nair vs marth as well as Utilt being more effective vs marth than sheik.

The one thing on sheik that samus has is dthrow -> FCS, not sure what % it works till.

 

[unknown522]

I lack experience with and vs samus. I still think marth and sheik are as bad for her. Maybe not ganon, but they seem to be doing well vs samus.

as for doc and as a former main and present fox main, I still think doc doesn't do too well vs both fox and falco. The doc's doing well vs falco have only beaten zhu. They've come close to chops when he SDs twice per match and get ***** / lose to other falcos (lol falcomist). I'm not a top level player though, so w/e.

Apparently, there's some tricks I'm missing, so oh well.

 

[DippnDots]

While there are options to edeguard marth effectively, what I was getting at was with sheik you can do one thing only and it will work, marth has the ability to switch up his options. And also no, you can't force marth to up-b onto the stage nearly as easily as you can sheik. Timing the invincibility frames on the ledge can be done 10x easier against a sheik's up-b than a marths (especially if they have a side-b to stall).

 

[Pi]

While there are options to edeguard marth effectively, what I was getting at was with sheik you can do one thing only and it will work, marth has the ability to switch up his options. And also no, you can't force marth to up-b onto the stage nearly as easily as you can sheik. Timing the invincibility frames on the ledge can be done 10x easier against a sheik's up-b than a marths (especially if they have a side-b to stall).

Yea it's easier, but samus gives a small window for marth to grab the ledge if she's constantly refreshing invincibility, samus also has the option of laying a bomb on the edge where marth is gonna UB into it and then can Utilt him.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

lulwat?

samus can't edge guard marth. you can edgehog to nair or fsmash, but you aren't getting him off the side you want him to be. you'd be better off utilting the sweetspot for giggles and then covering his options on getting back onto the stage from the edge.

with sheik you can at least play mind games with the edgehogging, like jump off just before her teleport and start getting into position. the sheik won't likely go for the edge and you will be able to walk around her and fsmash or dsmash or something.

sheik can get in on samus extremely well though, and combos her better than anyone else. marth is stuck playing a spacing game, and i think its easier for a samus player to win there if the skill level is even or samus is a little better. even if the samus is a little better than the sheik, the sheik still has a lot of auto combos and off stage gays.

as someone who switches between marth and sheik as main, and plays against a samus main frequently, i will vouch that sheik does a little better in the match up, overall.

 

[unknown522]

^ yeah, who doesn't she do better against?

(not a real question)

Edit: more changes coming up, once I get a hold of worldjem's laptop.

 

[HugS™]

Ganon ***** Samus hard. Punch missiles.. you can space better and edgeguard better too. It's a matchup I barely lose and I have played almost every Samus out there, even Hugs which I 3 stocked twice at Pound 3 lol.

LoL, I won our money match though. Don't forget.

Anything else we played was a friendly.

 

[Divinokage]

LoL, I won our money match though. Don't forget.

Anything else we played was a friendly.

It was 1-1.. but I usually don't mention my losses lol.

 

[MegaFEAR]

too many 5's, 10's, 90's and 95's for me, If the chart is supposed to be based on equal player skill level.

Or maybe i'm just bitter because pichu looks so **** bad on this chart
Yet he is so god **** cute

It's that belly....

Edit: Oh and i would agree with kage on the ganon vs samus. That match sucks for samus. Ganon's fist is made of fury

 

[Dark Sonic]

Yea it's easier, but samus gives a small window for marth to grab the ledge if she's constantly refreshing invincibility, samus also has the option of laying a bomb on the edge where marth is gonna UB into it and then can Utilt him.

First off, let me cover each of Samus's edgeguard options against Marth and more importantly, WHY THEY DON'T WORK.

1. Falling nair-this option only works if Marth is at the very limit of his recovery range. If Marth has his second jump, his side B stall, or even just a little room to drift forward before up Bing, Marth can easily go right past Samus (if not he can hit the BACK of her nair and tech the stage). This leaves SAMUS as the one off the stage with Marth on the edge, which is a very bad position

2. Dropping a bomb-Dude, Marth has a sword <_<. He can used the disjointed hitbox of his up B to blow up the bomb without touching him, and STILL sweetspot the ledge horizontally with his wonderful ledgegrab range.

3. Edgehog->....something- Alright, this one is the most likely to hit. You're guranteed a nair if you just wait for Marth to up B onto the stage. However, you'll be hitting him across the stage <_<. Even if you predict that he will go for the stage and get into position to hit him off THE RIGHT WAY, there's still not much you can do. If you do the normal getup and down smash, Marth can DI down on the first hit of dsmash and purposefully get hit into the second swing, knocking him the other way (or he can just DI up cause it's not gonna kill him any time soon, but at kill percents this isn't an option). Going behind and f-smashing is a decent option, but it takes quite a bit of time and you have to be in the right position in advance. D-throw->nair is kinda good, but he'll just DI the d-throw towards the stage and be hit the wrong way again. And let's not forget that for ALL of these Marth has already refreshed both his second jump AND his side B stall and will be using them to make the edgehog strategy....not an option.

4. Uptilt->learn to sweetspot, learn to tech, ect, ect.

Quite frankly, you'll have more luck playing ledgetrap games than trying to edgeguard a good Marth.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

dark sonic, you really could have just quoted my post and said "this" instead of saying exactly what i said lol

 

[JBM falcon08]

the ice climbers section could use some work

also falco vs fox should be even amirite? sry i didn't look back if there was any discussion.

 

[MaNg0]

fox vs falco depends on level

i think so

but overall it think its 50 50

or 51 49 in falcos favor

 

[Dogysamich]

really mango? You'd give it 1 whole percent?

Sure it isnt like, 50.01 - 49.99? XD

 

[MaNg0]

actually maybe

its a pretty **** even match up..

but i think falco wins in the end...

50.01 - 49.99 Falco

i like that better =D

 

[Pi]

1. Falling nair-this option only works if Marth is at the very limit of his recovery range. If Marth has his second jump, his side B stall, or even just a little room to drift forward before up Bing, Marth can easily go right past Samus (if not he can hit the BACK of her nair and tech the stage). This leaves SAMUS as the one off the stage with Marth on the edge, which is a very bad position

Yea, this isn't so reliable, quite risky.

2. Dropping a bomb-Dude, Marth has a sword <_<. He can used the disjointed hitbox of his up B to blow up the bomb without touching him, and STILL sweetspot the ledge horizontally with his wonderful ledgegrab range.

I could drop a bomb just off the stage so he has to UB into it, regardless of if he sweetspots or not, and if I time it right so that it hits him right at the edge I can Utilt him out of the bomb hit.

4. Uptilt->learn to sweetspot, learn to tech, ect, ect.

This pretty much goes for every character, you can't use it as a character specific anti-edge guard argument because it applies to every character across the board, and if he misses a tech against a Utilt, at a decent %, he's most likely dead.

 

[Zolios]

This doesn't really correspond with the current Tier List. Why aren't they somehow connected if their status in the game is matchups? Position on the tier and matchups are determined by the same qualities.

 

[DippnDots]

This doesn't really correspond with the current Tier List. Why aren't they somehow connected if their status in the game is matchups? Position on the tier and matchups are determined by the same qualities.

Tier list isn't based solely on match ups.

 

[Zolios]

Tier list isn't based solely on match ups.

I didn't assume Tier lists were in any way based on tournament standings, because those measure the strength of the player more then it does the strength of the character. If a roy won Genesis, I'm sure the Tier list wouldn't respond to it, unless the Roy won because he immensely altered the metagame for Roy.

 

[4% APR]

First off, let me cover each of Samus's edgeguard options against Marth and more importantly, WHY THEY DON'T WORK.

1. Falling nair-this option only works if Marth is at the very limit of his recovery range. If Marth has his second jump, his side B stall, or even just a little room to drift forward before up Bing, Marth can easily go right past Samus (if not he can hit the BACK of her nair and tech the stage). This leaves SAMUS as the one off the stage with Marth on the edge, which is a very bad position

2. Dropping a bomb-Dude, Marth has a sword <_<. He can used the disjointed hitbox of his up B to blow up the bomb without touching him, and STILL sweetspot the ledge horizontally with his wonderful ledgegrab range.

3. Edgehog->....something- Alright, this one is the most likely to hit. You're guranteed a nair if you just wait for Marth to up B onto the stage. However, you'll be hitting him across the stage <_<. Even if you predict that he will go for the stage and get into position to hit him off THE RIGHT WAY, there's still not much you can do. If you do the normal getup and down smash, Marth can DI down on the first hit of dsmash and purposefully get hit into the second swing, knocking him the other way (or he can just DI up cause it's not gonna kill him any time soon, but at kill percents this isn't an option). Going behind and f-smashing is a decent option, but it takes quite a bit of time and you have to be in the right position in advance. D-throw->nair is kinda good, but he'll just DI the d-throw towards the stage and be hit the wrong way again. And let's not forget that for ALL of these Marth has already refreshed both his second jump AND his side B stall and will be using them to make the edgehog strategy....not an option.

4. Uptilt->learn to sweetspot, learn to tech, ect, ect.

Quite frankly, you'll have more luck playing ledgetrap games than trying to edgeguard a good Marth.

couldnt she just do the lightshield thing?

 

[Zolios]

couldnt she just do the lightshield thing?

Zair makes it hard, and also since Samus falls slow, it'll probably cause a problem for her if she does fall down to grab the edge.

 

[Lovage]

wtf is a zair

u mean GRAPPLE?!?!!?!??!!?!

 

[Zolios]

wtf is a zair

u mean GRAPPLE?!?!!?!??!!?!

I guess I do :O

 

[4% APR]

Zair makes it hard, and also since Samus falls slow, it'll probably cause a problem for her if she does fall down to grab the edge.

im not sure how the grapple affects it

 

[Cosmo!]

it shouldn't affect it, the lightshield would be buffered

 

[DrewB008]

it doesnt work with samus

4% get to smym its gonna be a great tournament

the roy matchups are a little weak

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I could drop a bomb just off the stage so he has to UB into it, regardless of if he sweetspots or not, and if I time it right so that it hits him right at the edge I can Utilt him out of the bomb hit.

its up to marth when the timing is there. if you drop a bomb off, he could easily let it fall and upb below the ledge to get hit by the bomb and then upb again with the sweetspot.

 

[Pi]

its up to marth when the timing is there. if you drop a bomb off, he could easily let it fall and upb below the ledge to get hit by the bomb and then upb again with the sweetspot.

I could drop another one but I think we'll end up trading hits, any way, all I was trying to say is that while marth has options, so does sheik, but I think you already said that you'd say sheik does better against samus than marth does, and that was all I was trying to say

 

[Dark Sonic]

I could drop another one but I think we'll end up trading hits, any way, all I was trying to say is that while marth has options, so does sheik, but I think you already said that you'd say sheik does better against samus than marth does, and that was all I was trying to say

Marth has A LOT more options than Sheik.

A very effective and reliable recovery strategy against bombs (if you don't just plain grab the ledge while avoiding the bomb for some reason), is to hit the bomb, fast fall after getting hit, and then sweetspot. This happens far too fast for Samus to lay another bomb in the correct position.

Like I said before, the bomb thing is not a reliable edgeguard. It's a last ditch effort for when you don't have time to do something else.

couldnt she just do the lightshield thing?

Unfortunately no. She falls far too slow to grab the ledge. You might be able to if you time the fast fall (there are a couple of characters who can).


As for the matchup as a whole, I don't know enough about Sheik vs Samus to compare. But Marth handles Samus pretty well <_<.

 

[Pi]

Marth has A LOT more options than Sheik.

A very effective and reliable recovery strategy against bombs (if you don't just plain grab the ledge while avoiding the bomb for some reason), is to hit the bomb, fast fall after getting hit, and then sweetspot. This happens far too fast for Samus to lay another bomb in the correct position.

Like I said before, the bomb thing is not a reliable edgeguard. It's a last ditch effort for when you don't have time to do something else.

Unfortunately no. She falls far too slow to grab the ledge. You might be able to if you time the fast fall (there are a couple of characters who can).


As for the matchup as a whole, I don't know enough about Sheik vs Samus to compare. But Marth handles Samus pretty well <_<.

I spose marth could also space his UB so he's horizontally out of the range of the bomb

Any way, yes, marth does handle samus well indeed

I wish I had more sheiks to play against

Btw, you going to FL gaming? (I can't go to gigs)

 

[x After Dawn x]

actually maybe

its a pretty **** even match up..

but i think falco wins in the end...

50.01 - 49.99 Falco

i like that better =D

lol the matchup is even and pretty much based on what stage you're playing on. And that's kind of where the issues start to rise, some people think that stages with less platforms and are wider (like FD and Pokemon Stadium) are better for Falco cause his combos last longer, he can laser spam better, and Fox can't upthrow Falco into a platform. But then you have people who say Fox can just cg Falco all day on those stages and the platforms are needed for Falco to escape some upthrow combos sometimes and also so Falco can follow up on some of his combos (like jump and shine them when they roll / get up / tech, or Forward grab, etc). So I dunno.

 

[4% APR]

Marth has A LOT more options than Sheik.

A very effective and reliable recovery strategy against bombs (if you don't just plain grab the ledge while avoiding the bomb for some reason), is to hit the bomb, fast fall after getting hit, and then sweetspot. This happens far too fast for Samus to lay another bomb in the correct position.

Like I said before, the bomb thing is not a reliable edgeguard. It's a last ditch effort for when you don't have time to do something else.

Unfortunately no. She falls far too slow to grab the ledge. You might be able to if you time the fast fall (there are a couple of characters who can).


As for the matchup as a whole, I don't know enough about Sheik vs Samus to compare. But Marth handles Samus pretty well <_<.

i can do it pretty consistently with jpuff so i think samus could it too. I dont have any frame date or anything to back me up so i could be wrong though.

Big D- Drephen has been texting me all week trying to get me to go. I just dont think i can

 

[unknown522]

It was 1-1.. but I usually don't mention my losses lol.

definitely quoting this.

Anyways, samus is too light do the lightshield hog (marth killer).

Samus can ledgehop nair while marth is recovering if timed right (it's not that hard) and hit him in the middle of the up-b. Walltech can screw it over though.

You can also let him go on the stage and d-air -> charge beam / b-air. I'm sure after knocking marth off the stage, you will have enough time to charge the beam.

Marth in general is easy to edgeguard with any character.

too many 5's, 10's, 90's and 95's for me, If the chart is supposed to be based on equal player skill level.

Or maybe i'm just bitter because pichu looks so **** bad on this chart
Yet he is so god **** cute

It's that belly....

Edit: Oh and i would agree with kage on the ganon vs samus. That match sucks for samus. Ganon's fist is made of fury

maybe. Pichu is awsome and adorable, but realistically he sucks ***.

 

[HugS™]

It was 1-1.. but I usually don't mention my losses lol.

It was 1-1 for our pizza match.

We then just called it a 5 dollar money match, where i ended up winning the set.

It's a story i tell quite often, I remember it vividly.
I tried winning some easy pizza off a "noob". I put up 10 dollars for your 1 slice of pizza, to where you 3 stocked me the first match, and thankfully plank kicked us all of the TV's so that I could get my head over how this ganon I've never heard of just 3 stocked me

But i still won the set.