Melee Air dodge VS Brawl Air dodge! Discuss, which one should be in Brawl+?

[Oracle]

Can you tell me how WDing helps competition and how it does not lose depth? Can you explain in detail how dashing with all options at all times thats easy to do adds competitiveness to the game? And please don't just say, "more options-more competition"

Lets not refer to it as WDing but refer to it as speed walking where your in the state of walking except at the speed of dashing (or faster than dashing in some characters) with an infinite dash dance stacked on top of that while still in the state of walking during the dash dance.

Wavedash gives you more options. This allows for a more varied competitive game that is not only less boring, but also allows for more mindgames, unpredictability, styles of play that aren't useless, etc. which adds the depth and competition to the game.

He's not complaining that he can't approach, just that he is very limited, which is true.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

For someone who doesn't have a wii and doesn't play or test anything in brawl+ you sure do talk a lot mc-killa. You don't even have a wii and you are accusing kupo of not testing it?

i dont see many fox vids for Brawl+ on YT, and most of the time he uses pit and the ppl who do use fox dont use him to his maximum ability.

(even w/o a wii, i know how to gather my data)

 

[cobaltblue]

What about Melee Luigi? IC's? Hell, even Marth could actually move faster (albeit in a single direction) with his WD than he could at a run. No one doubts how strong Marth or the ICs are. You're holding onto a notion of what characters are supposed to be like, instead of what they are, which is underpowered and nearly useless competitively. It's not like we're making them severely OP anyway. They still can't combo like the lighter faster characters anyway, because they still hit people too far away. But giving them ground options is just what they need to become viable, and if they step over some other characters higher up the vanilla tier list who cares? I won't say it's more balanced, but I think it has that potential.

As for homogenizing character approaches, WDing and L-canceling did that to Melee too, and everyone seems more or less fine with that.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Marth was a speed character in melee anyways. Even without WD he was more or less built for stringing together attacks in a flashy matter. Luigi just exaggerated WDing due to his tendency to slide all over the place. Which given how he operates in vanilla Brawl appears to be attended for his character. ICs I don't know jack on from melee though. I think the only "slow" char that really benefited from wavedashing was samus and that was due to the fact she had a good range and crappy roll.

I think from kupo's POV having Ike or Gannon suddenly able to slide across stages at ridiculous speeds just goes completely against character balance and starts to lead down the path of character move tweaking.

 

[kupo15]

What about Melee Luigi? IC's? Hell, even Marth could actually move faster (albeit in a single direction) with his WD than he could at a run. No one doubts how strong Marth or the ICs are. You're holding onto a notion of what characters are supposed to be like, instead of what they are, which is underpowered and nearly useless competitively. It's not like we're making them severely OP anyway. They still can't combo like the lighter faster characters anyway, because they still hit people too far away. But giving them ground options is just what they need to become viable, and if they step over some other characters higher up the vanilla tier list who cares? I won't say it's more balanced, but I think it has that potential.

As for homogenizing character approaches, WDing and L-canceling did that to Melee too, and everyone seems more or less fine with that.

No one needs wavedashing to become competitively viable in brawl. And we can't make those assumptions until shield stun, dash dancing and no ASL ledges come out. Ganon isn't as good right now because the lack of shield stun really hurts him. Both Ike and Ganon can have effect edgeguarding tactics without ASL seeing how they can both spike for example. Ike's dtilt will actually be a good edge guard tool. There is going to be a ton more options that will open up when more codes come out its foolish to say that you need WDing to provide more options to become competitively viable when the game is still broken

I don't care what the tier list is and if low tiers love up. Heck, I use falcon and boy did he jump up the tier list but it wasn't because of WDing I can tell you that.

Well, are powerful characters suppose to be be fast like Fox?

Wavedash gives you more options. This allows for a more varied competitive game that is not only less boring, but also allows for more mindgames, unpredictability, styles of play that aren't useless, etc. which adds the depth and competition to the game.

Ill answer this with a quote

So can you tell me how all of these options and combinations help competition when one mechanic is responsible for it and its easy to do? Why learn other forms of approaching or solutions to situations when WDing does all of that? Keep in mind that we didnt even discuss the side effects of MAD in relation to the additional nerfs to the air game that hit stun has already done.

I thought that depth came from options resulting in several mechanics so that you have to chose what you think the best one is on the spot instead of being able to resort back to the same technique all the time..

He's not complaining that he can't approach, just that he is very limited, which is true.

Do you even know or even considering how much options will open up with shield stun and no ASL and dash dancing?

 

[NinjaFoxX]

ok, so leik take a look at the convo between me and giza about 30 mins ago(before my connection died)

OrbitofGiza (6:59:29 PM): Hey
E1ricEd (7:00:12 PM): hey
OrbitofGiza (7:00:22 PM): This arguing for wavedashing?
E1ricEd (7:00:39 PM): lolyeah
OrbitofGiza (7:03:48 PM): I might try to make a hack eventually that fixes the issues with it in a few months
E1ricEd (7:04:44 PM): i dont even have a Wii...lawl, and i dont know anyone in vegas whose pro brawl+
OrbitofGiza (7:05:15 PM): ... so why are you arguing for this wavedashing in brawl+?
E1ricEd (7:07:15 PM): i have my reasons, plus i like studying the data gathered to make brawl a true competitive game...even if i cant study it upfront
OrbitofGiza (7:08:25 PM): Oh gawd. The current wavedashing is so horrible though.
OrbitofGiza (7:09:11 PM): Im against it for pure sloppiness of the code in respect to competitive game design.
E1ricEd (7:09:59 PM): yes, but we cant just rule it out in its current condition, if the code improves and we can get a true WD code, then maybe more people would prefer it
OrbitofGiza (7:10:38 PM): The thing is nobody has showed any evidence that the MAD code improves the game
OrbitofGiza (7:11:08 PM): if anything it just removes character strength and weakness and thus decreases the diversity of tactics and character specific learning curves
E1ricEd (7:11:42 PM): nobody has evidence that BAD is an improvement.
OrbitofGiza (7:12:01 PM): BAD is the original design of the game however
E1ricEd (7:12:02 PM): it puts too much toward arieal defense
OrbitofGiza (7:12:17 PM): Character specific aerial defense however
E1ricEd (7:12:22 PM): and the original desgin is...mediocre at best
OrbitofGiza (7:12:38 PM): we have the same problem with ground defense in the form of sidestepping but nobody is complaining about that
E1ricEd (7:13:11 PM): spotdodging and SHAD...
OrbitofGiza (7:17:11 PM): Personally I feel like giving airdodging a little ground lag and perhaps slowing down spotdodging and airdodging by 1.2x frames would be better than the current mad system
E1ricEd (7:18:53 PM): that might work...not sure of the side effects but...
OrbitofGiza (7:18:54 PM): BAD adds layers of depth to the air fighting that the MAD code in its current form simply doesnt
OrbitofGiza (7:19:19 PM): It probably needs some nerfing but I dont feel that as a reason to scrap either of the ideas entirely
OrbitofGiza (7:20:00 PM): I just think BAD will be easier to fix, cost less code, and make a more fluid game that doesn't have to lack competitive quality if done currently.
E1ricEd (7:20:25 PM): MAD currently only helps ground game and is incomplete, but BAD could use some nerfing like only a single AD but you can do anything but AD again
OrbitofGiza (7:23:59 PM): Single airdodging mainstreams a lot of the characters and hurts diversity
OrbitofGiza (7:24:55 PM): adding 1.2x amount of frames on the airdodge would actually create a greater gap and make the game more diverse while nerfing the airdodging system.
OrbitofGiza (7:25:08 PM): The wavedashing that exists in brawl is horribly sloppy.
OrbitofGiza (7:25:15 PM): And I love wavedashing in melee.
OrbitofGiza (7:25:26 PM): Im a Ganondorf main after all, I am quite used to it.
E1ricEd (7:26:18 PM): it just needs more work,in the end as long as it makes more then MK a useable character im all for it
OrbitofGiza (7:28:17 PM): I just dont want to decrease character diversity. I want to increase viable options, maintain character diversity and uniqueness, while making the game more balanced overall.

my oponionions are abit sloppy scince i can only collect data, but what do you think?

oh and "several mechanics" with WD,LC,CC, and everything else we make a great competitive game...

 

[Oracle]

Do you even know or even considering how much options will open up with shield stun and no ASL and dash dancing?

For approaches? None. I still can't approach with a ground move other than up smash or dash attack or grab.

You seem to think that wavedash is auto approach. It's not. It opens up options.

 

[kupo15]

For approaches? None. I still can't approach with a ground move other than up smash or dash attack or grab.

You seem to think that wavedash is auto approach. It's not. It opens up options.

o_O

Yea your right, shield stun does nothing for approaches

/sarcasm

And I was talking about options in general....

 

[Shell]

So much of the anti-WD argument is based on how broken "wavestacking" is.

Would there be any argument to a non-stackable MAD with all options except another AD open?

I can't think of any other than code length.

 

[leafgreen386]

So much of the anti-WD argument is based on how broken "wavestacking" is.

Would there be any argument to a non-stackable MAD with all options except another AD open?

I can't think of any other than code length.

Non-stackable means landing lag. One of the biggest problems with MAD atm is that you have no lag upon landing. That's what makes it so powerful.

 

[kupo15]

So much of the anti-WD argument is based on how broken "wavestacking" is.

Would there be any argument to a non-stackable MAD with all options except another AD open?

I can't think of any other than code length.

It still hurts the air game more than it should. hit stun already nerfed it, we don't need to cripple it with MAD.

And everyone is being so close minded about approaches. Who said that ground options are the only way to approach in this game? Whats wrong with dashing>SH>AD at the last second to avoid attacks as an approach? SHADing is effective if you know how to use it. It seems that all I have been seeing from the pro MAD ppl is that ground options are the only way to approach and no one is thinking outside the box or even considering the new options and speed that will naturally come with more codes such as shield stun, no ASL and dash dancing.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

so how about this: lets make a entierly new AT thats completly new and universal.



(probobly impossible but hey its worth a shot)

 

[Shell]

I need to play around with PW's CC code and MuBa's Dash Cancel Code and check out the approach options some more.

What's the progress with dashdancing?

 

[kupo15]

I need to play around with PW's CC code and MuBa's Dash Cancel Code and check out the approach options some more.

What's the progress with dashdancing?

Nothing yet. Pw is working on the no ASL, buffering, lagless ledges, and possibly triple jump glitches (including sonic) atm. Then it will be shield stun, dash dancing.

 

[Starscream]

I need to play around with PW's CC code and MuBa's Dash Cancel Code and check out the approach options some more.

What's the progress with dashdancing?

I haven't tried the dash cancel code but the CC code so awesome. Dash > Fsmash on Fox is like one fluid sequence, the crouch is barely there at all.

Seriously, CC adds lots of options, dashing Fsmashes, Dsmashes, Dtilts, jabs, the works. You just don't need to slide like the length of a football field while doing.

Also I think you can CC after dash animation a lot faster than in Melee, or I might be wrong.

 

[Osi]

How is messing up a WD to get this punishment any different than messing up without it to achieve the same punishment?

What kind of ground approach are you going to mess up like that? A dash attack or up smash? I do admit the CC code adds a bit, but CC dash moves are easily countered with jabs.

Not exactly. You can WD in place without the joystick actually and all you have to do hold it like you are walking and press jump+z at almost the same time. And the fact that WDing is an IASA with another one compared to melee, you have no timing difficulties with the next one. You have to assume that the best players can WD without effort. WDing in melee was much harder and you barely if ever saw mistakes. Brawls is way easier

I admit that stacking takes away from the angle, but not the timing/spacing. I would be in favor or a HAD that does not stack and allows only attacks after the air dodge. If this is not put in then I would much rather take the current MAD over BAD. I find BAD to be a horrid system, and that is of course all opinion. I dislike it's effect on recovery, and it does little on the ground game aside from SHAD approached.

Its still not hard to switch, between the two. And once again, given that this is easier in brawl than it was melee, it will be learned rather quickly. Remember, we are going from melee to brawl, melee being a lot harder in almost everything technical so this stuff is a walk in the park.

People had issues using the 2 together years after learning WDing on melee... so I doubt everyone will integrate these together that easily. Not to mention brawl dash dance takes much harder timing. It's so much more rigid than melee DD was.

Why do you think its ok that ganon/ike can move faster than his run? Are you feeling that sympathetic for them that they need the options? Is it not bad enough that they can do more damage then everyone else that they need to be faster in dishing out that damage? I thought slow and powerful was balanced not fast and powerful. You don't pick these characters for there speed, but for there power. And how is the game competitive and interesting when everyone is fast and there is no unique qualities for being fast?

I've been playing a few ganon/Ike matches now (both as and against) and it feels much more balanced. I can easily punish slow attacks from them with characters like fox/falcon with good combo ability. It's not like WD makes them that much better. They still have a lot of lag compared to most fast characters when landing, they are big making the collision mesh so easy to combo on, and they don't have a ton of combo options. Ike does have a nice WD, but I certainly don't believe it breaks him... I just think it makes him more viable for competitions. Something like S-Cancel breaks him.

Yea, but isn't it a bit overkill to have dash dancing and wavedashing overlap in this area? You never saw wavedashing used as an approach in melee the way your describing because there was lag, a little bit of vulnerability if you chose to use it. Here there is none... Your really decreasing the value of dashdancing when this code does that plus more...

I saw WDing used a bit in melee as a entry, but it was in a game where dash speed carried in SHs. There was much more speed in doing a dash SH towards opponents on characters like Falcon. I have seen a lot of people do things like WD backwards at opponents and up tilt on fox. It's not the best approach, but had its places.

So can you tell me how all of these options and combinations help competition when one mechanic is responsible for it and its easy to do? Why learn other forms of approaching or solutions to situations when WDing does all of that? Keep in mind that we didnt even discuss the side effects of MAD in relation to the additional nerfs to the air game that hit stun has already done.

i thought that depth came from options resulting in several mechanics so that you have to chose what you think the best one is on the spot instead of being able to resort back to the same technique all the time..

I haven't played a single match yet where WD felt like the right action for approach every time. There are so many times I use dash attacks on fox rather than WD in because of it's setup for combos, and the space the dash attack hits.

Sorry this took a bit to respond to, just got home now.

 

[Archangel]

I think Ddancing will help mind games but not getting from point A to B. Unless the slow guys can moonwalk. I think MAD without helpless falling would help more. I just don't think Hitstun alone makes the characters more even unless you have the stun up so high you can't escape attacks. Then Low tiers like C.Falcon become BROKEN!!!!! there is a serious need for middle ground.

 

[Dan_X]

Pro MAD Logic -- using Barbra Logic Form

5 logical Arguments in defense of MAD for Brawl+, almost all of which have a supporting lemma, objection and replay. I've also included a counter argument and a conclusion.

Excuse the length, I spent time articulating this...

Thesis: Melee Air Dodging (MAD) improves Brawl+​

1.0 Approaches Improve
A is B P1) MAD adds varied approaches.
B is C P2) Adding varied approaches improves Brawl+
A is C T) MAD improves Brawl+
A= MAD
B= adds varied approaches
C= improves Brawl+

1.1
A is B P3) MAD adds wavelanding, and wavedashing.
B is C P4) wavelanding and wavedashing vary approaches.
A is C P1) MAD adds varied approaches.
A= MAD adds
B= wavelanding, and wavedashing
C = varied approaches

Objection1: MAD adds a “homogenized approach,” as such it takes away from character specific approaches.

Reply: This is not necessarily so, the addition of wave approaches would simply add option to the approaches already available to any given character. Abusing the same “homogenized” approach would do nothing more than make you predictable, as such, it would be easily countered by the enemy. A varied use of approaches wins the game, and that is aided with MADs additional movement options. An example of a Melee approach made possible in Brawl+ through MAD is “triangle jumping,” and it proves rather useful.

2.0 Mind Games
A is B P5) MAD increases option for mindgames.
B is C P6) Increasing the option for mindgames improves Brawl+
A is C T) MAD improves Brawl+
A=MAD
B= increases option for mindgames
C=improves Brawl+

2.1
A is B P7) MAD allows for wavedashed retreats, or fake outs.
B is C P8) Allowing for wavedashed retreats, or fake outs increases the option for mindgames.
A is C P5) MAD increases option for mindgames.
A= MAD
B= allows for wavedashed retreats, or fake outs
C= increases option for mindgames.

Objection2: MAD isn’t necessary for mindgames.

Reply: Sure mad isn’t necessary for mindgames, but it does add a slew of options that facilitate mindgames. Adding more options makes a more competitive game, and that is after all Brawl+’s goal.

3.0 Air Game
A is B P9) MAD creates a more punishable air game.
B is C P10) Creating a more punishable air game improves Brawl+
A is C T) MAD improves Brawl+
A= MAD
B= creates a more punishable air game
C= improves Brawl+

3.1
A is B P11) Creating a more punishable air game adds to strategic depth.
B is C P12) Adding to strategic depth improves Brawl+.
A is C P10) Creating a more punishable air game improves Brawl+
A= Creating a more punishable air game
B= adds to strategic depth
C= improves Brawl+

Objection3: One doesn't need MAD to punish someone in an aerial fight.

Reply: Sure, but Brawl's Air Dodge system is far too forgiving, as multiple air dodges provide for a safe aerial avoidance game. It's simply too safe, and not very strategic at all. Where as MAD forces the player to strategize more in the air as he only gets one air dodge.

4.0 Tournament Viability
A is B P13) MAD makes more characters tournament viable.
B is C P14) Making more characters tournament viable improves Brawl+.
A is C T) MAD improves Brawl+
A= MAD
B= makes more characters tournament viable
C= improves Brawl+

4.1
A is B P15) MAD increases the options at hand.
B is C P16) Increasing the options at hand makes more characters tournament viable.
A is C P13) MAD makes more characters tournament viable.
A= MAD
B= increases the options at hand
C= makes more characters tournament viable

Objection4: Wavedashing is a fake competitive mechanic in Brawl.

Reply: This isn’t so, as it adds a great deal of depth to the game in the form of a multitude of options. It is how people utilize these options that set them apart. With that said options such as wavedashing heighten technical skill of the game. As technical curve heightens so too does the competitive nature of the game. Simply put, if there’s more to be good at, you have a more competitive game.

5.0 The Greater Good
A is B P17) MAD creates the greater good.
B is C P18) Creating the greater good improves Brawl+.
A is C T) MAD improves Brawl+
A= MAD
B= Creates the greater good
C= improves Brawl+

Objection5: MAD brings some bad things to the table, such as a more pressure driven aerial game, one that has been nerfed with the addition of MAD in Brawl-- so it doesn’t create the greater good.

Reply: It still improves the aerial game from that of the regular Brawl Air Dodge (BAD). Some argue that they’d like a version of BAD that has but one dodge. Though this may improve BAD, it would still make sense that with a single air dodge at your disposal it’s a directionally influenced one. Get the most out of your dollar right? Seeing as how MAD adds a slew of great things to Brawl+ and the only bad are a result of the code (which can be modified) it’s safe to say that MAD in Brawl+ creates the greater good overall.

Counter Argument:

1.0 Air Game nerfs
A is B CP1) MAD allows only one air dodge without the ability to attack after.
B is C CP2) Allowing only one air dodge without the ability to attack after nerfs the air game too much.
A is C T) MAD nerfs the air game too much.

Conclusion:​

In the end, those who oppose MAD in Brawl+ seem to have one fundamental notion in common. It seems that their problem isn’t with MAD at all, nor is it with all of the options it provides, or the technical skill that it adds, but instead their issues reside within MAD’s coding. They don’t like how MAD executes in Brawl, as it could be better implemented. You know what? I agree, I think the code can be fixed as well. The changes are evident; there should be a lag on the wavedash so that it can’t be stacked, and so that it can’t be done as fast. In addition, after the initial air dodge, the player should be able to do aerial attacks, and recoveries. This way it’s sort of a mix of Brawls Air Dodging system and MAD’s. This mix would reduce the nerf on the air game as characters can still attack after the air dodge, instead of entering a helpless state of falling. It’s funny, both sides actually agree with more than they let on to. In the end, though anti MADs argue against MAD in Brawl, they are actually doing so based on the current flaws. Simply put, they don’t actually reject MAD (even if they think they do) but the code behind it.

Instead of scrapping MAD, simply because of the way it has been coded, we should be striving to get it fixed. We should rework it to our liking. It's well worth it, just as much so as other "crucial codes," i.e. dash-dancing, Hitstun, L-cancel, etc. It's "crucial" in that it adds a great sum of depth to Brawl+, a depth lacking in vanilla Brawl. The only viable counter I can think of for MAD in Brawl+ would be the length of the code. This though can be refined, and is worth doing so given the importance of MAD.


Face it, my logic is undeniable…

/Thread

 

[marshtric]

But Melees air dodge allowed wave dashing, lololol.

 

[cobaltblue]

If I may ask the people who say lack of approaches in brawl, what characters are you playing? For my sonic I have to resort to dash attack, upsmash, short hop fair, RAR Bair, up b, forward b, or air dodged from ground (its the motion when you try to wd).

I know that isn't near the amount MAD or melee offer but it is still quite a lot more than what some people have been saying here. And that is just with a low priority, low tier char. Or maybe my perspective is just dimmed since sonic is made for "comboing".

 

[magikguy]

melee air dodge system was better .

 

[Revven]

melee air dodge system was better .

Have you used it in Brawl+ yet? It's much different. >_>

 

[Problem2]

The only reasons that I liked the melee airdodge is because it's a nice substitute for dash dancing and it also helps people with recoveries because I like having gravity on. Someone released a better gravity code though that doesn't ruin recoveries, so now we just need dash dancing.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

The only reasons that I liked the melee airdodge is because it's a nice substitute for dash dancing and it also helps people with recoveries because I like having gravity on. Someone released a better gravity code though that doesn't ruin recoveries, so now we just need dash dancing.

a new gravity? :S

 

[Shell]

Well said, Orca -- my thoughts exactly. I'm anxious to see an equally eloquent and methodical response from the anti-WD group.

 

[Dan_X]

Well said, Orca -- my thoughts exactly. I'm anxious to see an equally eloquent and methodical response from the anti-WD group.

Thanks, I'm curious as to what they can dish out as well. Though, in the end, I concluded that it wasn't really two definitive sides as it originally seemed. Instead, there's pro MAD and those who hate the current code... Those who hate the current code make their arguments against MAD, but in reality, their plights are with the code and not MAD. It's funny really, every reason Kupo has stated is nothing more than an issue with the code. So, he's really not against MAD in the end.--- unless he can prove otherwise. He also can't say something like "it wasn't designed for Brawl" because that's rather moot. None of the hacks we're creating are "designed" for Brawl, so what's the point of saying that? That means anyone can argue that any of our codes are out of place, depending on how they approach the thought.

Also, the point of backing BAD on behalf of the thought that it keeps it more like Brawl is rather foolish too. The point of Brawl+ is not to be gentle with people and keep it close to their Sentiments that is Brawl (BAD). Instead, the point is to make a more competitive game, it doesn't matter if it plays the same as Brawl or not because we're working to make the game more competitive; we're working to improve the game. Unfortunately, some can never accept change.

 

[KillerSOS]

Hey... go play melee. Brawl > Melee

 

[metaXzero]

.............As it stands now, MAD has kinda won this discussion. kupo and other anti-MAD people have yet to respond.

Awww...

EDIT:KillerSOS: If you're gonna make stupid posts like that, stay the **** out of this thread...

 

[Starscream]

Instead, the point is to make a more competitive game, it doesn't matter if it plays the same as Brawl or not because we're working to make the game more competitive; we're working to improve the game. Unfortunately, some can never accept change.

Well see, that's where some people will disagree with you. There are folks that just want to change the mechanics that were broken with Brawl while keeping it familiar.

Personally, I don't really give a ****. As long as it plays like Super Smash Bros, and not Super Slide Bros.

 

[MBlaze]

Well see, that's where some people will disagree with you. There are folks that just want to change the mechanics that were broken with Brawl while keeping it familiar.

Personally, I don't really give a ****. As long as it plays like Super Smash Bros, and not Super Slide Bros.

Lol nice. MAD doesn't need to be in. 1 BAD NAO!!!!!

 

[nightSN]

if brawl airdodge could wavedash then yes. LOL

 

[storm92]

if brawl airdodge could wavedash then yes. LOL

Well that's fairly impossible ahah.
Don't call the argument over, it's more like it's at an impasse because neither side wants to budge.

 

[zxeon]

o_O

Yea your right, shield stun does nothing for approaches

/sarcasm

And I was talking about options in general....

Shield stun alone doesn't do anything for approaching since you can shield grab out of stun.

 

[storm92]

Shield stun alone doesn't do anything for approaching since you can shield grab out of stun.

With more shield stun it takes more frames to grab out of them. IIRC, it's either 0/1 frame to shield grab now. We would increase the frames needed.

 

[Dan_X]

if brawl airdodge could wavedash then yes. LOL

Exactly, lol.

Well see, that's where some people will disagree with you. There are folks that just want to change the mechanics that were broken with Brawl while keeping it familiar.

Personally, I don't really give a ****. As long as it plays like Super Smash Bros, and not Super Slide Bros.

Nothing was "broken" with Brawl before, it just lacked a competitive edge. It was perfectly playable before and still is now in its new form. The thing is, Brawl+ aims to create a better, more competitive game.

If the code gets attention and is tweaked it wouldn't be "Super Slide Brothers." People have to leave there sentiments at their side and try something new (or old in this case). It worked before, and it worked really well. Though Brawl is a different game, the current MAD code shows that the possibilities of a better MAD code are quite possible.

Lol nice. MAD doesn't need to be in. 1 BAD NAO!!!!!

This is why I made a new stand alone thread to showcase my ideas. I knew you weren't capable of taking anything seriously, that you were far to biased on the side of BAD to see things clearly. I'm looking at things from both sides, I understand why people like BAD, and I proposed that the MAD code be tweaked with that in mind.

You neglected my entire well-thought-out-post just to shut me down and not even reply to my ideas. You instead say "LoL nice. MAD doesn't need to be in. 1 BAD NAO!!! " which is funny because logically speaking this is fail. I've provided the logic why BAD with a single air dodge isn't as good as MAD (especially a new code for MAD) yet you apparently refuse to acknowledge this.

 

[Starscream]

Nothing was "broken" with Brawl before, it just lacked a competitive edge. It was perfectly playable before and still is now in it's new form. The thing is, Brawl+ aims to create a better, more competitive game.

I'm just using words that I've heard used to describe it, I don't personally think it was broken just not very good competitively. Besides, no need to be so anal about the words we use, you know what I meant.

If the code gets attention and is tweaked it wouldn't be "Super Slide Brothers." People have to leave there sentiments at their side and try something new (or old in this case). It worked before, and it worked really well. Though Brawl is a different game, the current MAD code shows that the possibilities of a better MAD code are quite possible.

Well then you should personally try to communicate with a hacker to have MAD fixed. If the current MAD stays in Brawl+ then I can easily see the game being dominated being sliding approaches of every attack, spot dodges and it's going to look like everyone is fighting on Icicle Mountain. It will be ********, I guarantee it.

If you fix MAD so that wavedashing works the way it did in Melee then great, everyone won't be able to stack wavedashes nor attack laglessly out of wavedashes. But you're also going to lose a lot of these approaches that you're so adamant about keeping because of added lag frames. How many frames of lag would you even be looking to add? Personally I would say however many it takes for you to finish the wavedash, and with Brawl's super long wavedashes your opponent will probably already be able to read you easily before you can get your attack out.

Simply put, wavedashing worked very well in Melee, and Brawl's wavedashing is nothing like Melee's. I am merely against wavedashing (and MAD by association) in it's current form. But we can talk and talk and talk about what it should be all we like but it won't make a difference if no hacker steps up to change it. And that's not even taking into account the code space it takes up. An edited one could take up more or possibly less. As it is now, it's too much. I'd rather have no ASL, higher gravity with boosted upward velocity to compensate (AKA falling faster), CC, lagless edges, DD, shieldstun and a modified powershield than wavedashing as it is now. I can't form an opinion on a code that doesn't exist.

 

[MBlaze]

Exactly, lol.



Nothing was "broken" with Brawl before, it just lacked a competitive edge. It was perfectly playable before and still is now in it's new form. The thing is, Brawl+ aims to create a better, more competitive game.

If the code gets attention and is tweaked it wouldn't be "Super Slide Brothers." People have to leave there sentiments at their side and try something new (or old in this case). It worked before, and it worked really well. Though Brawl is a different game, the current MAD code shows that the possibilities of a better MAD code are quite possible.



This is why I made a new stand alone thread to showcase my ideas. I knew you weren't capable of taking anything seriously, that you were far to biased on the side of BAD to see things clearly. I'm looking at things from both sides, I understand why people like BAD, and I proposed that the MAD code be tweaked with that in mind.

You neglected my entire well-thought-out-post just to shut me down and not even reply to my ideas. You instead say "LoL nice. MAD doesn't need to be in. 1 BAD NAO!!! " which is funny because logically speaking this is fail. I've provided the logic why BAD with a single air dodge isn't as good as MAD (especially a new code for MAD) yet you apparently refuse to acknowledge this.

I'm on Wiiwebz, wtf do you expect? :/

 

[Dan_X]

I'm just using words that I've heard used to describe it, I don't personally think it was broken just not very good competitively. Besides, no need to be so anal about the words we use, you know what I meant.

On the contrary, word use is very important, especially when looking at things logically -- which I am.

Well then you should personally try to communicate with a hacker to have MAD fixed. If the current MAD stays in Brawl+ then I can easily see the game being dominated being sliding approaches of every attack, spot dodges and it's going to look like everyone is fighting on Icicle Mountain. It will be ********, I guarantee it

I plan on contacting a coder...

If you fix MAD so that wavedashing works the way it did in Melee then great, everyone won't be able to stack wavedashes nor attack laglessly out of wavedashes. But you're also going to lose a lot of these approaches that you're so adamant about keeping because of added lag frames. How many frames of lag would you even be looking to add? Personally I would say however many it takes for you to finish the wavedash, and with Brawl's super long wavedashes your opponent will probably already be able to read you easily before you can get your attack out.

Even if we made it work EXACTLY the same way it did in Melee (which we won't) we'd still have added viable movement options.

Simply put, wavedashing worked very well in Melee, and Brawl's wavedashing is nothing like Melee's. I am merely against wavedashing (and MAD by association) in it's current form. But we can talk and talk and talk about what it should be all we like but it won't make a difference if no hacker steps up to change it. And that's not even taking into account the code space it takes up. An edited one could take up more or possibly less. As it is now, it's too much. I'd rather have no ASL, higher gravity with boosted upward velocity to compensate (AKA falling faster), CC, lagless edges, DD, shieldstun and a modified powershield than wavedashing as it is now. I can't form an opinion on a code that doesn't exist.

If we make it apparent that there's no need for a hacker to step up to the challenge than no one will. The code space that it takes up can be justified in that it's not just ONE change, but it adds MULTIPLE things to Brawl+.

I'm on Wiiwebz, wtf do you expect? :/

Regardless of how you connect to the internet I'd expect you to give a fair and accurate post. Does this mean that you'll provide a more legit post in the event that you go on the internet via a computer next time and not the Wii?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Even if we made it work EXACTLY the same way it did in Melee (which we won't) we'd still have added viable movement options.

Why wouldn't we (make it work like melee I mean)?

 

[MBlaze]

On the contrary, word use is very important, especially when looking at things logically -- which I am.



I plan on contacting a coder...


Even if we made it work EXACTLY the same way it did in Melee (which we won't) we'd still have added viable movement options.


If we make it apparent that there's no need for a hacker to step up to the challenge than no one will. The code space that it takes up can be justified in that it's not just ONE change, but it adds MULTIPLE things to Brawl+.



Regardless of how you connect to the internet I'd expect you to give a fair and accurate post. Does this mean that you'll provide a more legit post in the event that you go on the internet via a computer next time and not the Wii?

Lol if I had access to a computer at the time do you really think that I would have been on my Wii for my internet connection? The typing on there is atrotious and I wouldn't be able to put up a good fight on that thing now would I? I think not, don't you? :o

Reason being is because it takes so **** long just to even write a sentence but yeah... I think you get the point by now.

Anyway why I think that Melee Air dodge shouldn't be in Brawl+ is because it's a very sloppy code for one, two characters with air games would dominate the ones who don't. For example with the hitstun, who do you think is going to have the better time? Kirby or Dk? Kirby can just keep juggling to no end while Dk takes all this damage with no viable way to defend himself from the wraft. Chracters like Mk with the tournado is a scary thought also.... and with one dodge that pauses and is easily predicted where the opponent is going to go in Brawl... ohhh Jebus.... lol that would have **** written all over it now wouldn't it?

 

[zxeon]

Lol if I had access to a computer at the time do you really think that I would have been on my Wii for my internet connection? The typing on there is atrotious and I wouldn't be able to put up a good fight on that thing now would I? I think not, don't you? :o

Reason being is because it takes so **** long just to even write a sentence but yeah... I think you get the point by now.

Anyway why I think that Melee Air dodge shouldn't be in Brawl+ is because it's a very sloppy code for one, two characters with air games would dominate the ones who don't. For example with the hitstun, who do you think is going to have the better time? Kirby or Dk? Kirby can just keep juggling to no end while Dk takes all this damage with no viable way to defend himself from the wraft. Chracters like Mk with the tournado is a scary thought also.... and with one dodge that pauses and is easily predicted where the opponent is going to go in Brawl... ohhh Jebus.... lol that would have **** written all over it now wouldn't it?

Everyting you said can be fixed. Most of that won't be a problem with HAD.