Melee Air dodge VS Brawl Air dodge! Discuss, which one should be in Brawl+?

[kupo15]

Yea of course I would be at a disadvantage. Why should I learn to WD to compete? its not hard but its so easy for the reward it gives that it makes the game less diverse and boring when one tactic can be used in almost every situation.

You bring up good questions but the fact is, there is always going to be tiers. However, I think that the tier list in brawl is closer together than melee was and with the basic hacks out of the way, it should reflect that. That is what Im predicting..

 

[Archangel]

Yea of course I would be at a disadvantage. Why should I learn to WD to compete? its not hard but its so easy for the reward it gives that it makes the game less diverse and boring when one tactic can be used in almost every situation.

You bring up good questions but the fact is, there is always going to be tiers. However, I think that the tier list in brawl is closer together than melee was and with the basic hacks out of the way, it should reflect that. That is what Im predicting..

I'll have to wait until the hacks are complete but in the meantime why not give WDing another shot. Perhaps you'll find something in it you like. You said that what makes it bad is the fact that you can use it in every situation? Oddly enough that's what Made me start using WDing in Melee. Think of me as the dog on 101 dalmatians cartoon. I like to cover my tracks. If I can hit and avoid getting hit by using that movement then I will use it. Until they completely fix the stiff movement on this game I see no reason to play with openings in my attacks. Besides you know as well as I do that Pit has a glass jaw. If he takes too many good hits he's dead to rights. your saying you shouldn't learn WD. Does that mean you don't know how to do it? If so then is it really that fact that makes you dislike it and the extra mobility it brings?

 

[NinjaFoxX]

Yea of course I would be at a disadvantage. Why should I learn to WD to compete? its not hard but its so easy for the reward it gives that it makes the game less diverse and boring when one tactic can be used in almost every situation..

short answer: because its a major advanced technique which takes skill to use effectively.if WD were already in brawl would you lean it?

and just because you dont want to WD dosent make you a bad player(infact there were a few who got by w/o WD) learning just L-cancel was good enough if you had the skill to do so.but do go around saying we dont need it(cuz we all know pit, MK etc... dosent) there are alot of characters who needs this to become viable, thus increasing our options to more than just MK...

now, remember were looking for competitiveness, not diversity. the more options we create, the more skill it takes to use them correctly

 

[Archangel]

short answer: because its a major advanced technique which takes skill to use effectively.if WD were already in brawl would you lean it?

and just because you dont want to WD dosent make you a bad player(infact there were a few who got by w/o WD) learning just L-cancel was good enough if you had the skill to do so.but do go around saying we dont need it(cuz we all know pit, MK etc... dosent) there are alot of characters who needs this to become viable, thus increasing our options to more than just MK...

now, remember were looking for competitiveness, not diversity. the more options we create, the more skill it takes to use them correctly

I think we are about on the same page. I am could care less about Control movement because it sucks hard. I WD to move in attack and to get escape. As it stands now Brawl+ only works without MAD if you have high hit stun for 0 to 100+ or Death combos. Low Hit stun with WDing makes the game much more competitive as of now.

 

[zxeon]

I'll have to wait until the hacks are complete but in the meantime why not give WDing another shot. Perhaps you'll find something in it you like. You said that what makes it bad is the fact that you can use it in every situation? Oddly enough that's what Made me start using WDing in Melee. Think of me as the dog on 101 dalmatians cartoon. I like to cover my tracks. If I can hit and avoid getting hit by using that movement then I will use it. Until they completely fix the stiff movement on this game I see no reason to play with openings in my attacks. Besides you know as well as I do that Pit has a glass jaw. If he takes too many good hits he's dead to rights. your saying you shouldn't learn WD. Does that mean you don't know how to do it? If so then is it really that fact that makes you dislike it and the extra mobility it brings?

Oh snap, a 101 Dalmations reference!

 

[cobaltblue]

I know My bro Main's Samus and he uses Ganon and Ike as well. So it's not like I'm talking out of my ***. I admit that Brawl was my last hope for Nintendo's Smash series. If they are not going to build a game where any person has a chance to win if they are good with that character then why not just build classes into the freaking game and get it over with. Just have Tier vs mode already and be done with it. That way low class scum fight other scum and The Elite battle against other Elite.....and MK gets left out in the cold. Seriously though. What is the point of adding more and more characters to each game when ultimately the Top Tier are the only ones that have a chance to beat each other at the highest level of all 3 games so far? Why is it that if the best player of a Mid tier character should lose out to the best player of a Top tier character simply because his character is limited? Even if he is overall better? Call me crazy, annoying, hell even idiotic but I just don't get the logic in that. I have an Idea. Why not on the next Smash Brothers just eliminate all but the top tier characters and save everyone the wasted time of practicing with a character that ultimately was created with no chance of winning?

Think about this. Why are we hacking the game in the first place? Even the ones that liked it the way it was have hacked to at least get Hitstun or no trip? No Swap out or gravity modifiers. The truth is everyone just once to make the game right and that's the problem. We shouldn't be forced to fix a peace of **** game with FAILED online play as its best feature. Too bad they don't have a hack to fix that BS....yet I know I'm rambling on but when I think about the time I wasted standing at the store for the Midnight release it just pisses me off. Fact is when everything in the game is finished being hacked the Air dodge system is going to stand in your way.

btw Kupo do you think you could beat someone that was on your level Skill wise If they had WDing and you didn't? Don't you think you'd be at a disadvantage?

Welcome to the world of fighting games.

I think the only one that even comes close to having a cast that is fairly balanced is the Guilty Gear series but I never tried it.

 

[kupo15]

I'll have to wait until the hacks are complete but in the meantime why not give WDing another shot. Perhaps you'll find something in it you like. You said that what makes it bad is the fact that you can use it in every situation? Oddly enough that's what Made me start using WDing in Melee. Think of me as the dog on 101 dalmatians cartoon. I like to cover my tracks. If I can hit and avoid getting hit by using that movement then I will use it. Until they completely fix the stiff movement on this game I see no reason to play with openings in my attacks. Besides you know as well as I do that Pit has a glass jaw. If he takes too many good hits he's dead to rights. your saying you shouldn't learn WD. Does that mean you don't know how to do it? If so then is it really that fact that makes you dislike it and the extra mobility it brings?

There is nothing in it i really like. I have done some thorough testing and its a fake competitiveness. And no, you can't use WDing in melee the same way you can in brawl. Brawl gives you more options. They wont stiff movement because it provides superior movement. How is it skillful when you can cover your tracks with that movement always. Dude, I know how to WD...I wouldn't argue if I didn't know how to do it...

short answer: because its a major advanced technique which takes skill to use effectively.if WD were already in brawl would you lean it?

and just because you dont want to WD dosent make you a bad player(infact there were a few who got by w/o WD) learning just L-cancel was good enough if you had the skill to do so.but do go around saying we dont need it(cuz we all know pit, MK etc... dosent) there are alot of characters who needs this to become viable, thus increasing our options to more than just MK...

now, remember were looking for competitiveness, not diversity. the more options we create, the more skill it takes to use them correctly

If wavedash was already in brawl of course I would learn it. The difference is that the WD in brawl would be more natural and work with the physics engine and right now, this engine was designed to not work with WDing yet we bend it over backwards to do that...contorting the air dodging mechanic in this way without giving the other mechanics a makeover won't work.

And yea, I could chose to not WD and put myself at a disadvantage, but it still messes up the air dodging game..

Correction, the more options using different natural mechanics the more competitive. WDing is a fake competitive mechanic in brawl. At least there were limits in melee's wavedashing, a checks and balances. IIRC, when wavedash was first starting to be used, ppl abused it as a form of travel and got punished until they could find out how to use it and its limits. There are no limits like that of melee and you can use it as a form of travel since it makes more characters faster than running while providing all options at all times in conjunction with the tremendous slide it brings

There is no point convincing you guys at this point in time because it just won't happen and you won't understand. We will have to wait until the rest of the codes come out and yourll see that the options they provide are enough. You should learn to adjust to the new air dodge system instead going back to a fanboyish tactic such as wavedashing. I hope you at least recognize how sloppy the code is

 

[Archangel]

just asking.

 

[Shell]

I'm confused.

I hear from a couple SBR'ers that brawl WD is terrible.

I hear kupo15 saying that brawl WD is incredible (OP, even).

 

[kupo15]

I'm confused.

I hear from a couple SBR'ers that brawl WD is terrible.

I hear kupo15 saying that brawl WD is incredible (OP, even).

Maybe its terrible because its OP and it behaves weirdly and is a sloppy code. Its not really wavedashing anymore since you can't slide off of platforms, waveshine etc...you can only use it for incredible mobility, mindgames and ledge hop but in these uses, brawl WDing gives you more options than melee did plus its easy...

 

[Kix]

I don't see how it would be terrible given how it looks and what I've seen it do. Additionally, 0 frames until you can do something.

Kupo, it seems like the only points you really have is 1) it makes other forms of movement useless 2) it's overpowered. Is it really so absolute? Is there a guarantee you get a hit off of every use? While it helps defense it also helps offense. There is still start up on moves. So really if 5-10 frames were added it would better the game but you simply don't like it, and then you prefer BAD.

This isn't the same as the LC discussion so people won't accept it the same.

 

[kupo15]

I don't see how it would be terrible given how it looks and what I've seen it do. Additionally, 0 frames until you can do something.

Kupo, it seems like the only points you really have is 1) it makes other forms of movement useless 2) it's overpowered. Is it really so absolute? Is there a guarantee you get a hit off of every use? While it helps defense it also helps offense. There is still start up on moves. So really if 5-10 frames were added it would better the game but you simply don't like it, and then you prefer BAD.

This isn't the same as the LC discussion so people won't accept it the same.

Your also forgetting that it cripples aerial defense in a floaty game and its long. But I'm not the best at words so there is no way to convince you guys otherwise at this time. You just don't see it the way Giza, leaf and myself do and I don't know how to explain it.

 

[Osi]

Maybe its terrible because its OP and it behaves weirdly and is a sloppy code. Its not really wavedashing anymore since you can't slide off of platforms, waveshine etc...you can only use it for incredible mobility, mindgames and ledge hop but in these uses, brawl WDing gives you more options than melee did plus its easy...

Not out to prove a point on MAD being good or join in this debate at all, but one cool thing is you can WD off platforms. The thing is you can only do it forward and not backward. If you WD forward on a platform while holding forward till the end of the WD you slide off. I go from one side of battlefield to the other sliding on the platforms. I wish we could go backward too though, that would be awesome.

Just thought I'd toss that out there.

 

[Kix]

Your also forgetting that it cripples aerial defense in a floaty game and its long. But I'm not the best at words so there is no way to convince you guys otherwise at this time. You just don't see it the way Giza, leaf and myself do and I don't know how to explain it.

That's fine. It's opinion on whether or not a game should be so defensive, and I don't see MAD to be insufficient for defense although I would personally like you to be able to do actions after the fact. I think the benefits of the WDing would go over this anyway. The ground game being stronger when the game is essentially block or throw is no problem, and air moves still dodge things and set up things in addition to having their own properties. At other points they are necessary because you are airborne.

I personally think there should be higher gravity. I think it would help the effectiveness of the air game. Also the game would be more fast paced but some people might not like that. I also don't like spot dodging in this game as far as being easy to counter people. Increased gravity might actually make it more punishable. If there was a Melee ground tech system the oki would be a bigger deal as well like in Melee and I think a deeper oki game makes the game more interesting.

I like the ideas about no auto sweet spot etc.

 

[kupo15]

Not out to prove a point on MAD being good or join in this debate at all, but one cool thing is you can WD off platforms. The thing is you can only do it forward and not backward. If you WD forward on a platform while holding forward till the end of the WD you slide off. I go from one side of battlefield to the other sliding on the platforms. I wish we could go backward too though, that would be awesome.

Just thought I'd toss that out there.

No you cant slide off of platforms with MAD. The ledges stop all momentum from WDing. Your just walking off the platforms.

I like the ideas about no auto sweet spot etc.

And we should be getting them soon

 

[Osi]

No you cant slide off of platforms with MAD. The ledges stop all momentum from WDing. Your just walking off the platforms.



And we should be getting them soon

Hehe, fair enough that must be it.

 

[MBlaze]

So we all agree, no MAD? (Sorry for short posts, Wiiwebz)

 

[KayJay]

MAD + Hitstun is the reason i like Brawl+.
MAD could use some rework (up B possibility after airdodging) but even the current one gives me and my crew so much more fun in play, without MAD the game is so horribly projectile based it makes me sick.
If we want to have a good offensive gameplay without MAD, we have to code to not loosing speed momentum of jumps while dashing. When this is succeed, I'm also fine with BAD.

 

[Kix]

So we all agree, no MAD? (Sorry for short posts, Wiiwebz)

We are not agreeing this.

 

[storm92]

Coming from a person who used to be a big supporter for MAD and thought it was vital to Brawl+, I think it should take a sideline seat.
My reasons are:
1) Wavedashing is faster for almost every character over dashing, and obviously over walking. When you can consistently stack WDs (and trust me, its not difficult at all), why would we ever use dashing or walking, especially as its basically walking at a faster speed. It's not that other forms of movement would be lessened, they would be almost nullified. We're choosing not to use it that way because we're used to Melee WD, but if we keep MAD dashing and walking is useless.
2) No lag frames on landing. I don't quite get how this is a good thing. Have you seen WD Spot Dodge approaches? No seriously, in the hands of a human player who knows how to utilize it effectively, the WaveDodge is among the best approach techniques out there, but in an overpowered way instead of good. Don't we want to add depth to the game while maintaining what we already had?
3) Coding room. Enough said. MAD takes up a third of our coding space, and with ALC, hitstun, and no tripping, thats well over half the memory we have.
4) It's completely unnecessary. Hitstun, LC, and no tripping are necessary parts to Brawl+, because they are the things that make combos possible. What does MAD do except override any other movement options with a superior, overwhelmingly easy and broken technique? Sure, you can Wavesmash or Wgrab again, but we have those things in Brawl already without ease: walking or shield grabs, respectively. Once again, don't we want to add more skill and depth rather than removing some?

Anyways, there's my rant. I think the bottom line is that the line MAD-supporters use of "MAD adds new depth into the game" is actually completely null. Sure, it adds the ability to slide around the stage and use whichever moves you wish with basically no consequence due to waveshielding or wavedodging, but we also take away the art of approaches, using specific methods to perform moves (walking/shielding out of a dash to do a smash) in situations, which, in my opinion, requires more skill to know and utilize then simply WD'ing into anything.

EDIT: KayJay, that code is going to be made.

 

[zxeon]

And without the WD we're back to hoping that you can actually approach with just a dash attack, aerial, or Usmash. Out of the sixteen moves characters have we can only seriously approach with four moves, four very pedictable moves. How many other fighting games do you know limit you to only four of your moves for approach? Hell some games even have an air-dash for approaching because they know how hard projectiles can be to get around. When you dash in other games you can do any attack you dámn well please out of your dash.If you don't have a solution to this problem I suggest you stop making it seem like WDing is a crime and STFU. And I mean a real existing solution not an idea for one.

 

[leafgreen386]

And without the WD we're back to hoping that you can actually approach with just a dash attack, aerial, or Usmash. Out of the sixteen moves characters have we can only seriously approach with four moves, four very pedictable moves. How many other fighting games do you know limit you to only four of your moves for approach? Hell some games even have an air-dash for approaching because they know how hard projectiles can be to get around. When you dash in other games you can do any attack you dámn well please out of your dash.If you don't have a solution to this problem I suggest you stop making it seem like WDing is a crime and STFU. And I mean a real existing solution not an idea for one.

Three words: Dash cancel code

 

[kupo15]

And without the WD we're back to hoping that you can actually approach with just a dash attack, aerial, or Usmash. Out of the sixteen moves characters have we can only seriously approach with four moves, four very pedictable moves. How many other fighting games do you know limit you to only four of your moves for approach? Hell some games even have an air-dash for approaching because they know how hard projectiles can be to get around. When you dash in other games you can do any attack you dámn well please out of your dash.If you don't have a solution to this problem I suggest you stop making it seem like WDing is a crime and STFU. And I mean a real existing solution not an idea for one.

If you can't effectively approach an opponent with the extra options that brawl+ gives without wavedashing then Im sorry, but you suck at this game. Maybe you need WDing as an easy way out to approach effectively but many of us are good enough where we don't need to resort to one tactic that is incredibly easy do to win all the time. I would hate to see how you play in vanilla brawl with all of your whining about 'poor me, we can't approach without wavedashing"

Dash dancing and shield stun will give you the options you need plus the ability to be more confident in your approaches without the "hope" I think you severely underestimate shield stun...

 

[storm92]

If you don't have a solution to this problem I suggest you stop making it seem like WDing is a crime and STFU..

no u.

10whattheysaids^

Seriously though, stop the personal attacks and telling us stfu when your side of the argument has yet to even address the problems I proposed.

 

[Oracle]

If you can't effectively approach an opponent with the extra options that brawl+ gives without wavedashing then Im sorry, but you suck at this game. Maybe you need WDing as an easy way out to approach effectively but many of us are good enough where we don't need to resort to one tactic that is incredibly easy do to win all the time. I would hate to see how you play in vanilla brawl with all of your whining about 'poor me, we can't approach without wavedashing"

Dash dancing and shield stun will give you the options you need plus the ability to be more confident in your approaches without the "hope" I think you severely underestimate shield stun...

WD ing does make approaches more varied, gives more options, and thus makes the game more competitive.

Easy way out? I don't think so. And he didn't say that he coudln't aproach, it just makes approaches better.

 

[Starscream]

Three words: Dash cancel code

That or the new crouch cancel code. Seriously, I love it.

 

[kupo15]

WD ing does make approaches more varied, gives more options, and thus makes the game more competitive.

Easy way out? I don't think so. And he didn't say that he coudln't aproach, it just makes approaches better.

There is a line between more options and too many options and WDing is too many options. And all he keeps doing is whining and complaining how he doesn't have enough options to approach which I interpret as he sucks at approaching. The reason why we are not complaining is not because we think wavedashing is the scum of the earth, but because we know how it was in melee, and we see how much better it is in brawl. We know how to approach and we can approach fine without it and we realize that it gives huge reward for being so easy that it takes away depth....yes...it takes away depth...and yes...its the easy way out.

You can approach every character in the game to get a hit without WDing in but it all depends on how willing you are to work to get that. If you don't like the way your character approaches, then play MK instead of looking for an easy way out by WDing which affects everyone.

C'mon, 0 lag, speed as fast or faster than a run with all options at your disposal without a penalty? Is that good competition there? If you fail to see the power of WDing as more than just a spacing tool, then I don't know what to say. Take a step back and look at WDing what it really is in brawl, not how it was in melee.

Everyone is overlooking and underestimating the new options that will be created that your character is made to have when codes like no auto sweet spot ledges and shield stun and dash dancing come out. Every character has more natural options that are better for competition when these codes are unlocked and no one is recognizing that fact..

 

[Team Giza]

Welcome to the world of fighting games.

I think the only one that even comes close to having a cast that is fairly balanced is the Guilty Gear series but I never tried it.

Virtua Fighter 4-5 GO!

 

[Osi]

I don't see how saying STFU or anything like that can help matters... BAD vs MAD is the topic! People should feel free to post all thoughts and opinions on the matter in here without fear of personal attack. Personally I like the fact WD adds on top of all the things Kupo listed. I think it helps to have all of those + WD. It is a nice tool in brawl, and I would not like to see it out of the final code set.

 

[kupo15]

I don't see how saying STFU or anything like that can help matters... BAD vs MAD is the topic! People should feel free to post all thoughts and opinions on the matter in here without fear of personal attack. Personally I like the fact WD adds on top of all the things Kupo listed. I think it helps to have all of those + WD. It is a nice tool in brawl, and I would not like to see it out of the final code set.

Can you tell me how WDing helps competition and how it does not lose depth? Can you explain in detail how dashing with all options at all times thats easy to do adds competitiveness to the game? And please don't just say, "more options-more competition"

Lets not refer to it as WDing but refer to it as speed walking where your in the state of walking except at the speed of dashing (or faster than dashing in some characters) with an infinite dash dance stacked on top of that while still in the state of walking during the dash dance.

 

[Osi]

Can you tell me how WDing helps competition and how it does not lose depth? Can you explain in detail how dashing with all options at all times thats easy to do adds competitiveness to the game? And please don't just say, "more options-more competition"

Lets not refer to it as WDing but refer to it as speed walking where your in the state of walking except at the speed of dashing (or faster than dashing in some characters) with an infinite dash dance stacked on top of that while still in the state of walking during the dash dance.

First, it adds a variable of needing to perform it correctly. One bad WD can leave you wide open and punished (maybe even lose a whole stock). There is the need to have the angle/timing right, and I believe this adds a technical depth to using it properly. There is also the fact dash attack are useful for many characters in combos, so they must adapt WD and dashing together (using only WD to move limits you just like only dashing to move does).

WD adds speed to some characters like Ike/Ganon allowing them to perform combinations that dashing alone does not. This adds more depth in the form of combination options, and the fact you need to learn to defend against a larger variety of combos.

I also like to use dash dance with WD to put pressure on people I play. Having them scarred because they don't know when I will attack/retreat and it appears I'm moving faster can be a valuable tool to break down their confidence/reaction speed.

Wavelanding is also a valuable way to approach back on stage. Forcing the defender to cover more space than just the edge because of the speed a user can hop up -> slide ->attack a large distance. It's also nice for wavelanding between platforms to keep speed up without having to initiate a dash each time you land (this is just a good example because the user only wants to move on the ground a small distance between platform).


Those are just a few to list, I'm sure there are more, but those show my opinion well enough for my taste. I hope it helps clarify why I am of this opinion.

 

[storm92]

First, it adds a variable of needing to perform it correctly. One bad WD can leave you wide open and punished (maybe even lose a whole stock). There is the need to have the angle/timing right, and I believe this adds a technical depth to using it properly. There is also the fact dash attack are useful for many characters in combos, so they must adapt WD and dashing together (using only WD to move limits you just like only dashing to move does).

WD adds speed to some characters like Ike/Ganon allowing them to perform combinations that dashing alone does not. This adds more depth in the form of combination options, and the fact you need to learn to defend against a larger variety of combos.

I also like to use dash dance with WD to put pressure on people I play. Having them scarred because they don't know when I will attack/retreat and it appears I'm moving faster can be a valuable tool to break down their confidence/reaction speed.

Wavelanding is also a valuable way to approach back on stage. Forcing the defender to cover more space than just the edge because of the speed a user can hop up -> slide ->attack a large distance. It's also nice for wavelanding between platforms to keep speed up without having to initiate a dash each time you land (this is just a good example because the user only wants to move on the ground a small distance between platform).


Those are just a few to list, I'm sure there are more, but those show my opinion well enough for my taste. I hope it helps clarify why I am of this opinion.

Ike and Ganon with combos past what they already have= OP.
You know a simple Dthrow-->Fair combo from Ike already puts a huge dent in opponents? Or Ganon Dair combos?
There are certain reasons to why certain characters are slow. It helps to balance.
I'll edit more in later.

 

[kupo15]

First, it adds a variable of needing to perform it correctly. One bad WD can leave you wide open and punished (maybe even lose a whole stock).

How is messing up a WD to get this punishment any different than messing up without it to achieve the same punishment?

There is the need to have the angle/timing right, and I believe this adds a technical depth to using it properly.

Not exactly. You can WD in place without the joystick actually and all you have to do hold it like you are walking and press jump+z at almost the same time. And the fact that WDing is an IASA with another one compared to melee, you have no timing difficulties with the next one. You have to assume that the best players can WD without effort. WDing in melee was much harder and you barely if ever saw mistakes. Brawls is way easier

There is also the fact dash attack are useful for many characters in combos, so they must adapt WD and dashing together (using only WD to move limits you just like only dashing to move does).

Its still not hard to switch, between the two. And once again, given that this is easier in brawl than it was melee, it will be learned rather quickly. Remember, we are going from melee to brawl, melee being a lot harder in almost everything technical so this stuff is a walk in the park.

WD adds speed to some characters like Ike/Ganon allowing them to perform combinations that dashing alone does not. This adds more depth in the form of combination options, and the fact you need to learn to defend against a larger variety of combos.

Why do you think its ok that ganon/ike can move faster than his run? Are you feeling that sympathetic for them that they need the options? Is it not bad enough that they can do more damage then everyone else that they need to be faster in dishing out that damage? I thought slow and powerful was balanced not fast and powerful. You don't pick these characters for there speed, but for there power. And how is the game competitive and interesting when everyone is fast and there is no unique qualities for being fast?

I also like to use dash dance with WD to put pressure on people I play. Having them scarred because they don't know when I will attack/retreat and it appears I'm moving faster can be a valuable tool to break down their confidence/reaction speed.

Yea, but isn't it a bit overkill to have dash dancing and wavedashing overlap in this area? You never saw wavedashing used as an approach in melee the way your describing because there was lag, a little bit of vulnerability if you chose to use it. Here there is none... Your really decreasing the value of dashdancing when this code does that plus more...

So can you tell me how all of these options and combinations help competition when one mechanic is responsible for it and its easy to do? Why learn other forms of approaching or solutions to situations when WDing does all of that? Keep in mind that we didnt even discuss the side effects of MAD in relation to the additional nerfs to the air game that hit stun has already done.

i thought that depth came from options resulting in several mechanics so that you have to chose what you think the best one is on the spot instead of being able to resort back to the same technique all the time..

 

[MK26]

BAD or MAD?

Neither.

SSB64AD.

/thread

 

[NinjaFoxX]

First, it adds a variable of needing to perform it correctly. One bad WD can leave you wide open and punished (maybe even lose a whole stock). There is the need to have the angle/timing right, and I believe this adds a technical depth to using it properly. There is also the fact dash attack are useful for many characters in combos, so they must adapt WD and dashing together (using only WD to move limits you just like only dashing to move does).

WD adds speed to some characters like Ike/Ganon allowing them to perform combinations that dashing alone does not. This adds more depth in the form of combination options, and the fact you need to learn to defend against a larger variety of combos.

I also like to use dash dance with WD to put pressure on people I play. Having them scarred because they don't know when I will attack/retreat and it appears I'm moving faster can be a valuable tool to break down their confidence/reaction speed.

Wavelanding is also a valuable way to approach back on stage. Forcing the defender to cover more space than just the edge because of the speed a user can hop up -> slide ->attack a large distance. It's also nice for wavelanding between platforms to keep speed up without having to initiate a dash each time you land (this is just a good example because the user only wants to move on the ground a small distance between platform).


Those are just a few to list, I'm sure there are more, but those show my opinion well enough for my taste. I hope it helps clarify why I am of this opinion.

this...all of this.

now tell me,why all of the above should not be in...?

 

[kupo15]

this...all of this.

now tell me,why all of the above should not be in...?

read storm and my post above and pay special attention to the tag at the end of mine

 

[NinjaFoxX]

How is messing up a WD to get this punishment any different than messing up without it to achieve the same punishment?

the same way messing up a B move and getting punished accordingly

Not exactly. You can WD in place without the joystick actually and all you have to do hold it like you are walking and press jump+z at almost the same time. And the fact that WDing is an IASA with another one compared to melee, you have no timing difficulties with the next one. You have to assume that the best players can WD without effort. WDing in melee was much harder and you barely if ever saw mistakes. Brawls is way easier

brawl is just floatier, we we increase ffing and make brawl faster it'll be the same

Its still not hard to switch, between the two. And once again, given that this is easier in brawl than it was melee, it will be learned rather quickly. Remember, we are going from melee to brawl, melee being a lot harder in almost everything technical so this stuff is a walk in the park.

at least well have the choice right?

Why do you think its ok that ganon/ike can move faster than his run? Are you feeling that sympathetic for them that they need the options? Is it not bad enough that they can do more damage then everyone else that they need to be faster in dishing out that damage? I thought slow and powerful was balanced not fast and powerful. You don't pick these characters for there speed, but for there power. And how is the game competitive and interesting when everyone is fast and there is no unique qualities for being fast?

have you even tested how fast fox/falco/falcon is with WD?in the end it still balances itself out

Yea, but isn't it a bit overkill to have dash dancing and wavedashing overlap in this area? You never saw wavedashing used as an approach in melee the way your describing because there was lag, a little bit of vulnerability if you chose to use it. Here there is none... Your really decreasing the value of dashdancing when this code does that plus more...

they worked toghether fine in Melee, so why not now/

So can you tell me how all of these options and combinations help competition when one mechanic is responsible for it and its easy to do? Why learn other forms of approaching or solutions to situations when WDing does all of that? Keep in mind that we didnt even discuss the side effects of MAD in relation to the additional nerfs to the air game that hit stun has already done

its still more than WD, it, lcancel, and CCing toghether is why it was so good....er...useful

last line also applies for your tag

 

[Team Giza]

have you even tested how fast fox/falco/falcon is with WD?in the end it still balances itself out

For someone who doesn't have a wii and doesn't play or test anything in brawl+ you sure do talk a lot mc-killa. You don't even have a wii and you are accusing kupo of not testing it?

 

[kupo15]

For someone who doesn't have a wii and doesn't play or test anything in brawl+ you sure do talk a lot mc-killa.

o_O what!? So this guy doesn't even have a wii and he is accusing ME of not testing this stuff out?

they worked toghether fine in Melee, so why not now/

lulz with this info

 

[Yeroc]

Why do you think its ok that ganon/ike can move faster than his run? Are you feeling that sympathetic for them that they need the options? Is it not bad enough that they can do more damage then everyone else that they need to be faster in dishing out that damage? I thought slow and powerful was balanced not fast and powerful. You don't pick these characters for there speed, but for there power. And how is the game competitive and interesting when everyone is fast and there is no unique qualities for being fast?

What about Melee Luigi? IC's? Hell, even Marth could actually move faster (albeit in a single direction) with his WD than he could at a run. No one doubts how strong Marth or the ICs are. You're holding onto a notion of what characters are supposed to be like, instead of what they are, which is underpowered and nearly useless competitively. It's not like we're making them severely OP anyway. They still can't combo like the lighter faster characters anyway, because they still hit people too far away. But giving them ground options is just what they need to become viable, and if they step over some other characters higher up the vanilla tier list who cares? I won't say it's more balanced, but I think it has that potential.

As for homogenizing character approaches, WDing and L-canceling did that to Melee too, and everyone seems more or less fine with that.