Melee Air dodge VS Brawl Air dodge! Discuss, which one should be in Brawl+?

[kangaroo]

I only say to use Brawl Airdodge just to the shear fact Melee Airdodging completely Cripples Yoshi's Recovery

Hack your wii...

 

[Kix]

It seems to me that WDing would allow characters to get around hitboxes better, although with increased guard stun and L cancel would help as well with air moves, including WDing would give you a less linear set of options. For instance, if there were some hitbox that Mario would keep clashing with maybe WDing back Fsmash would counter someone spamming the move. Hitboxes are gigantic in this game.

Depending on how the hitstun works, with DI one dodge seems sufficient to me. Can you act after it? Seeing that Melee was ten frames before you could act, replacing that would actually give it some kind of downside so that running would still be useful. WDing would create more complex combos, setups and mind games as well so why shouldn't it be there?

 

[Mmac]

Hack your wii...

Understand Yoshi's Recovery Better!

I have played a hacked version with MAD. Completely Crippled. If I can't Airdodge past Edgeguards, then Yoshi is pretty much a floating target.

 

[zxeon]

I'd still like to see a modified MAD code that lets you do anything except another AD after it.

We need this.

 

[kangaroo]

Understand Yoshi's Recovery Better!

I have played a hacked version with MAD. Completely Crippled. If I can't Airdodge past Edgeguards, then Yoshi is pretty much a floating target.

Well that's not happening to me, so...

 

[zxeon]

understand Yoshi's Recovery Better!

I Have Played A Hacked Version With Mad. Completely Crippled. If I Can't Airdodge Past Edgeguards, Then Yoshi Is Pretty Much A Floating Target.

You Must Adapt!

 

[metaXzero]

Still would be nice if a hybrid existed. Like AD without directional input gives BAD or you get one MAD and remaining ADs until you land are BAD.

 

[zxeon]

Still would be nice if a hybrid existed. Like AD without directional input gives BAD or you get one MAD and remaining ADs until you land are BAD.

That sounds about right.

 

[Revven]

Still would be nice if a hybrid existed. Like AD without directional input gives BAD or you get one MAD and remaining ADs until you land are BAD.

I can imagine that being pretty **** long in lines... not only would you be telling the game to change the AD but, you would have 2 ADs in one. You'd be telling the game to make sure what is different by setting a different input for each one. I wouldn't be surprised if it became even longer than MAD and doesn't solve anything.

If MAD allowed another AD but not attack out of it and had some lag at the end of the animation, maybe then it would be shorter because it'd just be Brawl's AD without attacking, some lag, and directional choice (but the lag would balance out the direction input because then you couldn't keep changing your direction with the AD). But... not even this would bring it down to 20 lines I'm sure.

 

[Archangel]

Still would be nice if a hybrid existed. Like AD without directional input gives BAD or you get one MAD and remaining ADs until you land are BAD.

Good Idea as long as you can attack or jump between the BADs. I just got the new hitstun setting and Code that makes you able to move and attack after UpB moves and I gotta tell you the combos change DRASTICALLY!!!! I Recommend getting it. Btw don't mind what I said about Ike he's not broken just faster and better. Is that so much of a crime? Still dash dancing and movement in and out of it needs to be fixed.

 

[kupo15]

Is it too much to ask players to adapt?

Apparently seeing how your not willing to adapt to brawl's AD system so your the one to talk

You Must Adapt!

Then why don't you?

 

[metaXzero]

If MAD had lag like in Melee...

 

[kupo15]

If MAD had lag like in Melee...

It still doesn't help the fact that your crippling the air game even more. Hit stun already nerfed BAD so the air game doesn't really need anymore nerfs.

Answer me this. Do you honestly feel that WDing is necessary to make this game competitive? And I'm not asking you if you want it because you want it but is necessary to have it? Like is it not a good game without WDing? Will we be able to branch out to the most number of players with it?

 

[metaXzero]

It still doesn't help the fact that your crippling the air game even more. Hit stun already nerfed BAD so the air game doesn't really need anymore nerfs.

Answer me this. Do you honestly feel that WDing is necessary to make this game competitive? And I'm not asking you if you want it because you want it but is necessary to have it? Like is it not a good game without WDing? Will we be able to branch out to the most number of players with it?

To make Brawl+ competitive period? No. Its competitive with or without WD.

To make Brawl+ more competitively viable? I'd say yes due to the options given by it. More tools for players to take advantage to secure victory is a good thing to me.

 

[kupo15]

To make Brawl+ competitive period? No. Its competitive with or without WD.

To make Brawl+ more competitively viable? I'd say yes due to the options given by it. More tools for players to take advantage to secure victory is a good thing to me.

Ok good we agree on the first part. But please explain what you mean by more competitively viable. Would you say that 64 was not competitively viable since it lacked WDing? Is there a point where the number options is so overwhelming that it hurts the game instead of keeping things simple? Do you think you will reach out to the most number of people with MAD?

 

[zxeon]

It still doesn't help the fact that your crippling the air game even more. Hit stun already nerfed BAD so the air game doesn't really need anymore nerfs.

Answer me this. Do you honestly feel that WDing is necessary to make this game competitive? And I'm not asking you if you want it because you want it but is necessary to have it? Like is it not a good game without WDing? Will we be able to branch out to the most number of players with it?

The game needs all the approaching options possible with the WD at the speed possible with the WD and with the mobility possible with the WD. If you take out all the stuff in the code there to disable your attacks after the airdodge then the WD code becomes the most practical way to grant these options to players. WDing keeps your opponent guessing as to what move you might attack with. You can approach with smashes, tilts, aerials, jabs, dash attacks, and stationary specials (like wolf's bayonet on his blaster) rather than just your Usmash, dash attack, and aerials which can be seen coming from a mile away.

 

[Team Giza]

To make Brawl+ more competitively viable? I'd say yes due to the options given by it. More tools for players to take advantage to secure victory is a good thing to me.

I agree but I still don't think WD belongs in this game. Wavedashing takes a while to learn in Brawl+ thanks to the buffering system and the lack of lag afterwards. Once you learn it then its powerful options become way to obvious. The problem here is it kills off character diversity as well as a lot of potential approach depth that we could be working on otherwise. Dash dancing, and better pivoting, would help the game out far more then wavedashing would as it would increase the options without killing off other methods of approaching and maintain character diversity.

I would like to enhance and deepen the ground movement a lot by applying old methods and new ones. I just do not see the current system of wavedashing helping the game; it looks ********, it feels ********, and it kills off a lot of diversity. When I get my USB gecko and learn how to do some hacking I am going to try to get working on some new ideas for it after I fix some of the stupider problems with the game.

 

[metaXzero]

Ok good we agree on the first part. But please explain what you mean by more competitively viable. Would you say that 64 was not competitively viable since it lacked WDing? Is there a point where the number options is so overwhelming that it hurts the game instead of keeping things simple? Do you think you will reach out to the most number of people with MAD?

As said, MORE competitvely viable. Not JUST competitively viable. 64 is viable without WD. But WD would add to the game (no I'm not suggesting hacking 64 to add WD.)

When the options replace preexisting options heavily. Like how the current WD replaces running for alot of characters. It was fine in Melee when only 3 characters lost use for running.

Will it reach out to the most people? .......Don't know really. Depends on how interested competitive players thought of Melee's air dodge system...

 

[zxeon]

My post got screwed up.

 

[zxeon]

I agree but I still don't think WD belongs in this game. Wavedashing takes a while to learn in Brawl+ thanks to the buffering system and the lack of lag afterwards. Once you learn it then its powerful options become way to obvious. The problem here is it kills off character diversity as well as a lot of potential approach depth that we could be working on otherwise. Dash dancing, and better pivoting, would help the game out far more then wavedashing would as it would increase the options without killing off other methods of approaching and maintain character diversity.

I would like to enhance and deepen the ground movement a lot by applying old methods and new ones. I just do not see the current system of wavedashing helping the game; it looks ********, it feels ********, and it kills off a lot of diversity. When I get my USB gecko and learn how to do some hacking I am going to try to get working on some new ideas for it after I fix some of the stupider problems with the game.

WDing goes hand in hand with dash dancing and pivoting and we are looking to kill the buffering system at our first convenience. WDing is already diverse characters moves have different effects on thier WD. We can't hold people's hands through the whole game Giza and Kupo we have to expect they will put in some effort to learn how to play the game.

Oops, double post.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Will it reach out to the most people? .......Don't know really. Depends on how interested competitive players thought of Melee's air dodge system...

It needs lag. The wavedashing would be acceptable.

And my biggest problem with the MAD is not wavedashing itself, but simply the fact that you become so vulnerable in the air. Not only that, but characters are in the air longer than they were before (since they fall slower) and few characters would have an effective means to get down. Then there's the edgeguarding problem, as off stage edgeguarding becomes completely overpowered with some characters (Metaknight).

 

[kupo15]

The game needs all the approaching options possible with the WD at the speed possible with the WD and with the mobility possible with the WD.

Does it really need all this? So it will fail if it isn't melee 2.0? I didn't know melee was the only competitive smash game out there and every game needs to be melee to be competitive. News to me...

If you take out all the stuff in the code there to disable your attacks after the airdodge then the WD code becomes the most practical way to grant these options to players. WDing keeps your opponent guessing as to what move you might attack with. You can approach with smashes, tilts, aerials, jabs, dash attacks, and stationary specials (like wolf's bayonet on his blaster) rather than just your Usmash, dash attack, and aerials which can be seen coming from a mile away.

No it does not. You don't need a single solution to fall back on to combat every single approach problem in the game. How exciting will the game be when you can fall back on WDing to help you through all the difficulties you used to have?

Why are you guys going for something so complicated? You are doing a U turn in a fundamental game mechanic this makes it looks and feel so unnatural. Most of the time simple is better too. Look at 64. It is the most primitive game in the franchise and it was an excellent and successful competitive game. IT WAS COMPETITIVE AND DIVERSE AND EXCITING AND IT DIDN'T HAVE WDING TO PROVIDE YOU WITH THOSE OPTIONS!!! IT HAS MORE NATURAL WAYS OF MOBILITY!!

64 will always be a better smash game in every aspect over Brawl+ with wding and the funny thing is, there are less options in 64 then brawl+ with WDing.....so how does a surplus of options to the nth degree that only one thing provides is good for competition?

 

[zxeon]

Does it really need all this? So it will fail if it isn't melee 2.0? News to me...



No it does not. You don't need a single solution to fall back on to combat every single approach problem in the game. How exciting will the game be when you can fall back on WDing to help you through all the difficulties you used to have?

Why are you guys going for something so complicated? You are doing a U turn in a fundamental game mechanic this makes it looks and feel so unnatural. Most of the time simple is better too. Look at 64. It is the most primitive game in the franchise and it was an excellent and successful competitive game. IT WAS COMPETITIVE AND DIVERSE AND EXCITING AND IT DIDN'T HAVE WDING TO PROVIDE YOU WITH THOSE OPTIONS!!! IT HAS MORE NATURAL WAYS OF MOBILITY!!

64 will always be a better smash game in every aspect over Brawl+ with wding and the funny thing is, there are less options in 64 then brawl+ with WDing.....so how does a surplus of options to the nth degree that only one thing provides is good for competition?

Can you stop with the stigma against WDing kupo? Can we get past that? There is nothing wrong with WDing. It's not faster than a pivot smash either it has a lot more setup time. WDing is not that tough, go play other fighting games and come back and tell me we are asking too much of our players. You need some prespective Kupo.

 

[cobaltblue]

As sonic pointed out, you still have the fact MAD makes some chars completely sitting targets in the air and wrecks aerial defense.

I'd really hate to see this game go back to nothing more than juggles at best as far as air game is concerned.

 

[zxeon]

As sonic pointed out, you still have the fact MAD makes some chars completely sitting targets in the air and wrecks aerial defense.

I'd really hate to see this game go back to nothing more than juggles at best as far as air game is concerned.

It doesn't have come to that if we remove all the disabling after the airdodge.

 

[kupo15]

The game needs all the approaching options possible with the WD at the speed possible with the WD and with the mobility possible with the WD. .

You need some prespective Kupo.

You need to go back to 64 and you need to know what makes a good competitive fighting game. If you think that this game needs one mechanic to provide all the options to all the problems you are having in this game, then you don't know anything about what makes a good competitive fighter...

And no we are not past this. You need to stop your BAD hate and adjust (I believe it was you who was complaining about ppl not adjusting?). You can't go completely changing game mechanics (and I mean COMPLETELY) because your too emotionally attached to WDing and say its ok even though it has nasty side effects. The competitive value of this game goes DOWN with WDing because of all the harm it does to the other aspects of the game and by the surplus options it provides to combat anything thrown against you..


Just because I am arguing against MAD doesn't mean I hate WDing. It was good......in MELEE! You need to go back to 64 and get some perspective on what REALLY makes smash a true competitive fighter.

EDIT:

go play other fighting games and come back and tell me we are asking too much of our players. .

Giza and Kupo we have to expect they will put in some effort to learn how to play the game.

And when have I ever said that WDing is hard as opposed to WDing being too easy for the reward it gives?

 

[Team Giza]

We can't hold people's hands through the whole game Giza and Kupo we have to expect they will put in some effort to learn how to play the game.

I am not trying to hold anyone's hand. I have made it clear my reasoning for it is not because its difficult. The reasons I brought up how wavedashing is difficult to do is to explain why people haven't been doing it in the matches so far yet not to discredit the tactic. My reasoning for not liking it is the sloppiness of the code and overpowering options it can give a player which completely destroys a lot of games diversity and tough decision making. I want the game to be deep and diverse so that it won't get stale no matter how much people play it.

Do you play other fighting games in a serious fashion, zxeon? Or just smash bros?

 

[zxeon]

You need to go back to 64 and you need to know what makes a good competitive fighting game. If you think that this game needs one mechanic to provide all the options to all the problems you are having in this game, then you don't know anything about what makes a good competitive fighter...

And no we are not past this. You need to stop your BAD hate and adjust (I believe it was you who was complaining about ppl not adjusting?). You can't go completely changing game mechanics (and I mean COMPLETELY) because your too emotionally attached to WDing and say its ok even though it has nasty side effects. The competitive value of this game goes DOWN with WDing because of all the harm it does to the other aspects of the game and by the surplus options it provides to combat anything thrown against you..


Just because I am arguing against MAD doesn't mean I hate WDing. It was good......in MELEE! You need to go back to 64 and get some perspective on what REALLY makes smash a true competitive fighter.

Stop with the stigma Kupo.

I have Smash 64 on my Wii and I do play it when I need perspective. I also own Tatsunoko Vs. Capcom. You should give that game a try.

 

[kupo15]

Stop with the stigma Kupo.

I have Smash 64 on my Wii and I do play it when I need perspective. I also own Tatsunoko Vs. Capcom. You should give that game a try.

Lol. So that is the best response you can give? Nothing trying to counter our points or anything? Pathetic.....

 

[Miamisportsfan45]

I personally do miss the distance that air dodging gave in melee. Though, I hate the lag. So I'm going to have to with SSBB on this one.

 

[zxeon]

I personally do miss the distance that air dodging gave in melee. Though, I hate the lag. So I'm going to have to with SSBB on this one.

The lag can be dealt with.

Sorry about that I don't read your whole posts kupo. I don't hate the Brawl airdodge I want both BAD and MAD to be in the game and if that is not possible then we can have a middle ground (HAD) I don't hate BAD. If I had both choices I would use both choices they are both very awesome mechanics.

Calling me pathetic? Ignorant...

 

[Dark Sonic]

It doesn't have come to that if we remove all the disabling after the airdodge.

Then people could just airdodge over and over until they reach the stage.

My point was that BAD is a necessity for the aerial game, and WDing itself is too overpowered in it's present form.

 

[zxeon]

Then people could just airdodge over and over until they reach the stage.

My point was that BAD is a necessity for the aerial game, and WDing itself is too overpowered in it's present form.

You only get one airdodge. Why would you ever give anyone more than one chance to become completly invulnerable in midair without being hit.?

 

[kupo15]

The lag can be dealt with.

Sorry about that I don't read your whole posts kupo. I don't hate the Brawl airdodge I want both BAD and MAD to be in the game and if that is not possible then we can have a middle ground (HAD) I don't hate BAD. If I had both choices I would use both choices they are both very awesome mechanics.

Calling me pathetic? Ignorant...

You don't read my whole posts...why? And your calling me ignorant? Your a great debater if you chose not read my whole posts...

I was calling your response to my post pathetic because it was. Maybe if you read my whole post you would have something better to respond with unless you couldn't refute it which is why you chose not to read it? Or read it but pretended not to read it?

You only get one airdodge. Why would you ever give anyone more than one chance to become completly invulnerable in midair without being hit.?

doesnt the removal of gimp mode after MAD defeat the purpose of MAD?

 

[MBlaze]

So Kupo, anyone in mind to make the 1 BAD code?

 

[zxeon]

You don't read my whole posts...why? And your calling me ignorant? Your a great debater if you chose not read my whole posts...

I was calling your response to my post pathetic because it was. Maybe if you read my whole post you would have something better to respond with unless you couldn't refute it which is why you chose not to read it? Or read it but pretended not to read it?


doesnt the removal of gimp mode after MAD defeat the purpose of MAD?

Your posts sometimes disgust be to the point I start posting without finishing the post.

Pathetic or ignorant I am not, but I am a tad impatient with a weak stomach. some of your posts don't deserve a response. Removing the gimp mode doesn't defeat the purpose. The Airdodge has such a long animation that it is still gimpable. Observe your opponent bait them and then strike.

 

[Me_Aludes]

Why do you people say that BAD helps aerial game? To me, at least, it doesn't.

In SSBM, you have to work hard in order to dodge an attack, because the airdodge puts you in a bad position. That means, you are forced to think in other ways if you want not to be punished. That somehow adds depth.

In Brawl, airdodge doesn't put you in a bad position, but rather in a better position than your opponent, if his aerial is laggy. You can spam shorthops easily because of BAD. It kills edgeguarding: In SSBM pretty much all characters have good options when edgeguarding. In Brawl, only chars with lagless aerials can follow you and punish bad BADs (lol). Also, airdodging has almost no downsides at all (well, you won't kill anyone with it), it's the safest move in Brawl, easy to spam and hard to punish. It's like Brawl shield/roll, but you can't grab them and punishing it's waaaaaaaaaay harder.

As an addition, you can't say BAD is needed for an aerial game. Try playing any other fighting game. Or Melee or SBB64.

I'm not saying MAD is better than BAD, or which should people use. Just something I think.

 

[Team Giza]

Why do you people say that BAD helps aerial game? To me, at least, it doesn't.

You are thinking of it in aspects of normal brawl. But there have been changes made that hurt the Brawl airdodge quite a bit. More nerfs to it may be made later as well.

In Brawl, airdodge doesn't put you in a bad position, but rather in a better position than your opponent, if his aerial is laggy.

Unless of coarse the opponent fakes you out and doesn't start their fast aerial. You airdodge, and then they attack to punish the airdodge. Hitstun makes this punishment a lot more noticeable then it was in normal brawl as well.

You can spam shorthops easily because of BAD.

Yes and it adds another defense option but it still isn't as effective as most characters sidesteps. Personally I think a good way to nerf defenses in general is to make it so shields don't recover when you are in the air (and possibly not when you are sidestepping and rolling).

It kills edgeguarding: In SSBM pretty much all characters have good options when edgeguarding.

This is mainly just issues with easy ledgesnappy. Actual problems with the ledge itself and not the airdodging system. We have plans to fix the ledge and then egdeguarding will be more effective again.

In Brawl, only chars with lagless aerials can follow you and punish bad BADs (lol). Also, airdodging has almost no downsides at all (well, you won't kill anyone with it), it's the safest move in Brawl, easy to spam and hard to punish. It's like Brawl shield/roll, but you can't grab them and punishing it's waaaaaaaaaay harder.

Perhaps brawl+ will need a few future nerfs to its airdodging system. But changing it back to melee is not the way to go since brawl has more focus on its air game when melee was much more ground based.

As an addition, you can't say BAD is needed for an aerial game. Try playing any other fighting game. Or Melee or SBB64.

But thats just it, brawl is more focused on the aerial battle system. Melee and SSB64 work off an intense high punishment ground game that just leads in to aerial juggles. There was still decision making in the air and you used aerials for the ground game (SHFFL) but the air game still wasn't as developed as brawl+'s could be.

 

[kangaroo]

Man, the next person who says MAD screws up the air game or that WDing is overpowered needs to put up some videos, because playtesting has not found this to be true. Each person has his own opinion on the ideal competitive game. Some may have thought melee was loads better than 64 or vice versa. Some prefer the air and others the ground. Another thing I should point out about the brawl+ WD is that game aesthetics are almost entirely based on opinion and have no real bearing on competitive play. I thought DDing looked stupid in melee but why should that matter?

 

[Team Giza]

Man, the next person who says MAD screws up the air game or that WDing is overpowered needs to put up some videos, because playtesting has not found this to be true.

How good are you at wavestacking? MAD does screw up the airgame for many characters although it does have some positive aspects as well but I will say it changes the game a lot. My problem is that the whole code is quite sloppy and I don't think all of this fits in with the lighter gravity of the game. Remember the default position for Brawl+ is going to be what was in brawl unless it can be shown to be a better change for the game overall. So far I have not seen an argument that makes me think that MAD is better for the game overall.

Another thing I should point out about the brawl+ WD is that game aesthetics are almost entirely based on opinion and have no real bearing on competitive play. I thought DDing looked stupid in melee but why should that matter?

I just add that it looks stupid and sloppy after I make my point. I don't mean for it to support my position in anyway.