Melee Air dodge VS Brawl Air dodge! Discuss, which one should be in Brawl+?

[kangaroo]

MAD does not screw up the airgame for many characters although it does have some negative aspects as well.

Remember the default position for Brawl+ is going to be what was in brawl unless it can be shown to be a better change for the game overall.

Really? when did we decide this?

 

[Team Giza]

MAD does not screw up the airgame for many characters although it does have some negative aspects as well.

It makes a lot of characters air games more similar though. Dedede use have have an extremely powerful defensive air game. When you turn MAD on it loses a lot of its ability.

Really? when did we decide this?

It is called Brawl+ for a reason you know. We are trying to fix issues we can find with brawl that will make it a better game while trying to keep a lot of the gameplay aspects from brawl intact. There are going to be other movement techniques made that will keep character diversity instead of making it more similar throughout the cast like wavedashing threatens to do.

Perhaps if changes are made to the code I would be a bit more accepting but for now I haven't seen an argument for the code that is convincing. I have played with it on quite a bit (in fact its on my SD card right now) and I don't like what it does to a lot of the characters. I might eventually try to work on some kind of HAD but I do not see it as too high of a priority. If there is more to MAD and wavedashing I would like to know and see what it is and how it would make the game superior to BAD with a few tweaks.

 

[Yeroc]

The way I see it, MAD steps into two problem areas fairly nicely, and with minor tweaking could be a truly wonderful code for the game's mechanics. The issues I'm referring to are ground-based maneuverability options, and an overly powerful air defense game, though to be honest hitstun did take good care of some of that.

I see WDing as an incredibly useful tool for increasing ground game options, working around limiting dash mechanics and other types of character mobility limitations. I hear that Ike becomes way too good with WD to jab approaches, yet it's just the sort of thing Ike needs to become more viable against a cast that's been buffed through different means like the addition of greater combo potential, because we all know that in particular really doesn't benefit him much.

MAD also solves the AD spam problem, though now that we have nearly limitless tweaking capability I'm all in favor of a single MAD type code that allows post dodge actions, which would keep some of the BAD flavor, help those with poor recoveries, and yet still help tone down the overpowered spammability of the current BAD.

As it stands now, I think MAD is the best option we have for addressing both of these issues. I'd like to see more dash options, but until and unless we get a DC or DD code, I'm of the opinion that MAD solves both of those problems extraordinarily well. That's all I got for right now, I might come up with some more detailed explanations later.

 

[Kix]

How good are you at wavestacking? MAD does screw up the airgame for many characters although it does have some positive aspects as well but I will say it changes the game a lot. My problem is that the whole code is quite sloppy and I don't think all of this fits in with the lighter gravity of the game. Remember the default position for Brawl+ is going to be what was in brawl unless it can be shown to be a better change for the game overall. So far I have not seen an argument that makes me think that MAD is better for the game overall.

I just add that it looks stupid and sloppy after I make my point. I don't mean for it to support my position in anyway.

It seems to me that WDing would allow characters to get around hitboxes better, although with increased guard stun and L cancel would help as well with air moves, including WDing would give you a less linear set of options. For instance, if there were some hitbox that Mario would keep clashing with maybe WDing back Fsmash would counter someone spamming the move. Hitboxes are gigantic in this game.

Depending on how the hitstun works, with DI one dodge seems sufficient to me. Can you act after it? Seeing that Melee was ten frames before you could act, replacing that would actually give it some kind of downside so that running would still be useful. WDing would create more complex combos, setups and mind games as well so why shouldn't it be there?

As I said, although it might help the ground game, which includes the mixup already (so it's not really a bad thing), I don't see how it destroys the air game besides forcing you to be more conservative about your options in the air. The reasons I've already mentioned I think make it a good idea.

Increased gravity and guard stun would help the air game, especially with tightened up perfect guard. I think that the ground dodge in this game would be a bigger threat to the air game.

 

[Master Knight DH]

Is it too much to ask players to adapt?

It isn't. The problem is overbalancing.

I only say to use Brawl Airdodge just to the shear fact Melee Airdodging completely Cripples Yoshi's Recovery, and Limit's Ness's already limited Recovery even more. Unnecessary gimps from an Unnecessary addition

Actually, it helps Yoshi (who, surprisingly, I didn't think of) and Ness. I know with Ness from experience. That's my own reason.

Does it really need all this? So it will fail if it isn't melee 2.0? I didn't know melee was the only competitive smash game out there and every game needs to be melee to be competitive. News to me...

--

No it does not. You don't need a single solution to fall back on to combat every single approach problem in the game. How exciting will the game be when you can fall back on WDing to help you through all the difficulties you used to have?

Why are you guys going for something so complicated? You are doing a U turn in a fundamental game mechanic this makes it looks and feel so unnatural. Most of the time simple is better too. Look at 64. It is the most primitive game in the franchise and it was an excellent and successful competitive game. IT WAS COMPETITIVE AND DIVERSE AND EXCITING AND IT DIDN'T HAVE WDING TO PROVIDE YOU WITH THOSE OPTIONS!!! IT HAS MORE NATURAL WAYS OF MOBILITY!!

64 will always be a better smash game in every aspect over Brawl+ with wding and the funny thing is, there are less options in 64 then brawl+ with WDing.....so how does a surplus of options to the nth degree that only one thing provides is good for competition?

Hmm.....you actually made a good post. I am Quoting it for great justice.

You need to go back to 64 and you need to know what makes a good competitive fighting game. If you think that this game needs one mechanic to provide all the options to all the problems you are having in this game, then you don't know anything about what makes a good competitive fighter...

And no we are not past this. You need to stop your BAD hate and adjust (I believe it was you who was complaining about ppl not adjusting?). You can't go completely changing game mechanics (and I mean COMPLETELY) because your too emotionally attached to WDing and say its ok even though it has nasty side effects. The competitive value of this game goes DOWN with WDing because of all the harm it does to the other aspects of the game and by the surplus options it provides to combat anything thrown against you..


Just because I am arguing against MAD doesn't mean I hate WDing. It was good......in MELEE! You need to go back to 64 and get some perspective on what REALLY makes smash a true competitive fighter.

EDIT:


And when have I ever said that WDing is hard as opposed to WDing being too easy for the reward it gives?

Hmm, if only I still has my copy of SSB for the 64. Ooh, the day it comes out for the VC can't come too soon.

Why do you people say that BAD helps aerial game? To me, at least, it doesn't.

In SSBM, you have to work hard in order to dodge an attack, because the airdodge puts you in a bad position. That means, you are forced to think in other ways if you want not to be punished. That somehow adds depth.

In Brawl, airdodge doesn't put you in a bad position, but rather in a better position than your opponent, if his aerial is laggy. You can spam shorthops easily because of BAD. It kills edgeguarding: In SSBM pretty much all characters have good options when edgeguarding. In Brawl, only chars with lagless aerials can follow you and punish bad BADs (lol). Also, airdodging has almost no downsides at all (well, you won't kill anyone with it), it's the safest move in Brawl, easy to spam and hard to punish. It's like Brawl shield/roll, but you can't grab them and punishing it's waaaaaaaaaay harder.

As an addition, you can't say BAD is needed for an aerial game. Try playing any other fighting game. Or Melee or SBB64.

I'm not saying MAD is better than BAD, or which should people use. Just something I think.

If Melee AD adds depth, it isn't a welcome sort of depth. Kirby jumps into the air 3 times, should be difficult to reach, but before he jumps again, he'll be reached anyway. He has to AD or he goes flying sky high. With Melee Air Dodge, he becomes Helpless right afterwards and loses his remaining 3 jumps. That's stupid.

And Brawl's air game.....maybe it's just me, but I don't find aerial superiority in Brawl to have much of a point unless you're a character like Meta Knight. When you have aerial superiority, you should be able to whack the opponent quickly without them being able to do too much about it in most character matchups. But plenty of characters can use AA to some working degree.

The way I see it, MAD steps into two problem areas fairly nicely, and with minor tweaking could be a truly wonderful code for the game's mechanics. The issues I'm referring to are ground-based maneuverability options, and an overly powerful air defense game, though to be honest hitstun did take good care of some of that.

I see WDing as an incredibly useful tool for increasing ground game options, working around limiting dash mechanics and other types of character mobility limitations. I hear that Ike becomes way too good with WD to jab approaches, yet it's just the sort of thing Ike needs to become more viable against a cast that's been buffed through different means like the addition of greater combo potential, because we all know that in particular really doesn't benefit him much.

MAD also solves the AD spam problem, though now that we have nearly limitless tweaking capability I'm all in favor of a single MAD type code that allows post dodge actions, which would keep some of the BAD flavor, help those with poor recoveries, and yet still help tone down the overpowered spammability of the current BAD.

As it stands now, I think MAD is the best option we have for addressing both of these issues. I'd like to see more dash options, but until and unless we get a DC or DD code, I'm of the opinion that MAD solves both of those problems extraordinarily well. That's all I got for right now, I might come up with some more detailed explanations later.

If Brawl AD needs to be limited in air, that would be fine. But at least it doesn't cheat multi-jumpers out of jumps or help bad/no Up B recovery characters. (Olimar, who is my main, has a gimpable Up B recovery, for the record.)

 

[kupo15]

Hmm.....you actually made a good post. I am Quoting it for great justice.

Thanks. But apparently some ppl think its utter nonsense to a point where its disgusting to read and therefor they don't read it but argue against it anyway? Maybe its disgusting to read because its the truth...just putting that out there....

Really? when did we decide this?

And who decided that replicating melee is the direction off Brawl+? We don't have a leader and yes ppl have different ideas to make the game better.

I believe that brawl+ should be a more competitive version of brawl. You also have to consider that the whole point of debating is for a standard or what should be a standard because without a scene, who cares what code set we use? The fact is that there are more brawl ppl than melee. There are also some ppl in melee that will never go to brawl. There are a lot of ppl who will never go back to melee but there is a better chance that more brawl people will go to brawl+.

So you have a few melee people that will give brawl+ a chance, more melee ppl who will not, and a good portion of the brawl crowd are willing to try brawl+ including several top players (sagemoon, claw....) But as we have been seeing, I really doubt there will be willing to play brawl+ with such a change as MAD. Yes the other codes are a change from brawl but nothing is more different than the air dodging and can be a huge turn off. Im not saying we should cater to these ppl but and its not the backbone to my MAD argument but its something we have to think about. No scene, who cares what codes we use.



Hopefully the pro MAD ppl will start seeing how unnecessary and sloppy MAD is when the other codes come out the same way ALC is accepted.

 

[Wavedash Master]

I really think it is kind of vague when people say we are making Brawl+ to make it more competitive. Are we making the game faster? Are we making it more technical? Are we giving the player more options in a battle? What does it mean to make the game more competitive?

 

[metaXzero]

I really think it is kind of vague when people say we are making Brawl+ to make it more competitive. Are we making the game faster? Are we making it more technical? Are we giving the player more options in a battle? What does it mean to make the game more competitive?

The 3rd one.

 

[MuBa]

If we are giving the player more options in a battle then why don't we use my Run Cancel code?

 

[kupo15]

I really think it is kind of vague when people say we are making Brawl+ to make it more competitive. Are we making the game faster? Are we making it more technical? Are we giving the player more options in a battle? What does it mean to make the game more competitive?

It means fix the broken mechanics already present in the game by making it slight changes instead of radically changing it. This means hitstun, shield stun, no trip, l canceling....

With these additions of the competitive mechanics added back in the game, the game increases speed, technicality, and provides more options on its own in its most natural way. The game has fruitful options that are oppressed because the all the game mechanics responsible for them are not working...

 

[MBlaze]

If we are giving the player more options in a battle then why don't we use my Run Cancel code?

I'd use it if some people would put it in their threads so I can find it later.

 

[zxeon]

Thanks. But apparently some ppl think its utter nonsense to a point where its disgusting to read and therefor they don't read it but argue against it anyway? Maybe its disgusting to read because its the truth...just putting that out there....

Oh snap! Thats where I stopped reading your post though.

 

[kupo15]

Oh snap! Thats where I stopped reading your post though.

Is it not the truth that you said this in your posts? And you say stuff much worse than this to me in your posts yet I still read them. But do w/e you want. Don't read my posts if you don't want to...And you don't have to respond to this post. I don't care if you do or not

 

[zxeon]

Is it not the truth? You even said this in your posts. And you say stuff much worse than this to me in your posts yet I still read them. But do w/e you want. Don't read my posts if you don't want to...

I argue against the things that deserve an answer. I try not to feed the trolls but you were asking for it literally.

 

[MBlaze]

Alright ladies, settle. -_-

 

[zxeon]

If we are giving the player more options in a battle then why don't we use my Run Cancel code?

The run cancel is great for attacking out of run and I use it but attacking out of the dash animation is what we really need.

 

[Starscream]

WDing keeps your opponent guessing as to what move you might attack with. You can approach with smashes, tilts, aerials, jabs, dash attacks, and stationary specials (like wolf's bayonet on his blaster) rather than just your Usmash, dash attack, and aerials which can be seen coming from a mile away.

Can you please explain to me why every character needs all these options in every situation that they're approaching? Because that honestly sounds kinda of ********.

MAD needs Melee style lag or no dice. I still wanna try MAD with no gimping and only 1 airdodge though.

 

[kangaroo]

I have said more than once that I think it’s too early too make a standard. Who gives a random group of people here the authority to do that anyways? If we have to make a standard now (which we don’t), the SBR should do it because even though they’re not a large group, at least they’re not just any random people. Some people want the game closer to melee and some don’t. I’m not claiming that either one is right; it’s a matter of preference. But I don’t see the need to go insisting how overpowered, imbalanced, or ugly MAD is when it’s too early to determine that anyways. And none of the matches played so far supports any of those claims. Even Mookie, who seems neutral on the matter, has said that the WD is not overpowered. If it is your opinion that MAD is bad for the game, that’s fine. If you think the WD is truly overpowered, then you have nothing to worry about because the community will drop it over time. Why would competitive players like using something that breaks the game? However, if many people prefer MAD and finds that it adds to the game, you’ll just have to deal with it. Also, sagemoon is using MAD. Not only that, but his matches against Fear (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yyoqP1CH60) show that there’s nothing broken about the WD and that it provides a good mindgame and spacing tool. It seems to me that the people who played melee competitively and who play BRAWL now tend to like MAD.

 

[zxeon]

Can you please explain to me why every character needs all these options in every situation that they're approaching? Because that honestly sounds kinda of ********.

MAD needs Melee style lag or no dice. I still wanna try MAD with no gimping and only 1 airdodge though.

It's not like all the moves you can use are practical out of the sixteen (seventeen on characters with Zairs) moves you have (counting grabs) something like (on a character like Wolf) nine of them are good for approaching (assuming your opponent is standing on the ground) and then out of those nine you have to pick the ones that are right for the situation. The seemingly overwhelming list of possibilities gets narrowed very quickly when you actually have to apply them in a fight.

 

[Finns7]

I agree kangaroo...Its way too early.
Maybe with more side tourneys having Bad or Mad we can get a better debate going...

 

[kupo15]

hate to break this up but check the second post in the code agenda

 

[Finns7]

@_@ crouch cancel dude im trying this out when I have time lagless edges.. good stuff pw

 

[Dan_X]

I keep hearing about a "run cancel" code.. where is it and can someone explain it?

 

[kupo15]

second post in my code agenda. You can cancel the skid animation with a crouch

 

[Osi]

hate to break this up but check the second post in the code agenda

Omg lagless edges!

I'll be trying this all day tomorrow, please thanks PW for me. I've been really anticipating this code!.

 

[MuBa]

Yea I just tried the code and so far it works pretty well. One little thing I've noticed is your alignment towards hanging the edge becomes a LITTLE off when ledge dropping quickly. Other than that the code works great!

You can even run -> grab ledge -> ledge hop -> attack as a mindgame tactic which is nice.

 

[Osi]

Yea I just tried the code and so far it works pretty well. One little thing I've noticed is your alignment towards hanging the edge becomes a LITTLE off when ledge dropping quickly. Other than that the code works great!

You can even run -> grab ledge -> ledge hop -> attack as a mindgame tactic which is nice.

This will be great for knee/drills back onto the stage!

 

[kupo15]

This will be great for knee/drills back onto the stage!

And also to run away as a fake out defense into a quick ledge attack.

The code agenda thread needs some love so lets bring the convo there

 

[Archangel]

I still say that a duel Air Dodge system is much needed. Perhaps a slowdown of the noob wavedash but surely abandoning the WD isn't completely the answer either. I was watching some melee matches the other day and I noticed that Pichu beat a Marth and a Ice Climbers player that was really good. What I'm getting at is WD is the only hope for complete fairness in Brawl. Not noob but a wavedash is needed for sucky characters. I tried it your way Kupo and I guess it's just an epic war of perception going on because I don't see the equalizer without a wavedash. The Brawl Air game is good but lets face it. You'll never see a bottom or low tier character in the finals of a smash tourney....or even semi finals with or without just Hitstun. Hitstun helps but alone isn't enough. At the same Time I have noticed that Charzzard and Ike have a rather Unbelievable jump in tier with the noob wavedash. If WD had Melee's lag and you had at least 3 or 4 air dodges then things would balance out. My definition of Balance differs from everyone else I guess......At my peak in Melee I had a chance against Everyone with any character I picked. Although the playing Brawl+ with your hacks does make Pit functionally the best character in the game (Which does make me happy ) I just don't see it as completely fair with. Your right about 1 thing though. The current MAD does make the game a little bit TOO fair for my taste but at least Samus's and Ganondorf's have a shot against Pits and Meta's. Well....more of a shot then before. Although these new hacks may help somewhat. I'll test them in the morning.

 

[kupo15]

I still say that a duel Air Dodge system is much needed. Perhaps a slowdown of the noob wavedash but surely abandoning the WD isn't completely the answer either. I was watching some melee matches the other day and I noticed that Pichu beat a Marth and a Ice Climbers player that was really good. What I'm getting at is WD is the only hope for complete fairness in Brawl. Not noob but a wavedash is needed for sucky characters. I tried it your way Kupo and I guess it's just an epic war of perception going on because I don't see the equalizer without a wavedash. The Brawl Air game is good but lets face it. You'll never see a bottom or low tier character in the finals of a smash tourney....or even semi finals with or without just Hitstun. Hitstun helps but alone isn't enough. At the same Time I have noticed that Charzzard and Ike have a rather Unbelievable jump in tier with the noob wavedash. If WD had Melee's lag and you had at least 3 or 4 air dodges then things would balance out. My definition of Balance differs from everyone else I guess......At my peak in Melee I had a chance against Everyone with any character I picked. Although the playing Brawl+ with your hacks does make Pit functionally the best character in the game (Which does make me happy ) I just don't see it as completely fair with. Your right about 1 thing though. The current MAD does make the game a little bit TOO fair for my taste but at least Samus's and Ganondorf's have a shot against Pits and Meta's. Well....more of a shot then before. Although these new hacks may help somewhat. I'll test them in the morning.

We are not done with the codes. We just got dash canceling and lagless ledges (which help a lot) I don't believe WD is needed and so what if the lower tiers have to work harder...thats why they are low tier. And even if WD makes them a little better, there will still be low tiers. IIRC, despite WDing, Pichu still loses a lot. Its apart of the game. But we shall see what happens down the road.

And btw, ganon and samus don't really have problem with pit...trust me on that

I think that with the standard fixes, the game is more balanced than melee so no worries there.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

^^that...sorta(what spam said)

WD benifits those with terrible range, terrible approach, or...just terrible characters

oh, and..."thats why their lower tier?" ROFL, cmon we're balancing a game here(to the best of our ability)

 

[kupo15]

^that...sorta

WD benifits those with terrible range, terrible approach, or...just terrible characters

I don't see how having one mechanic responsible for fixing terrible range, terrible approaches, and terrible characters makes a diverse, interesting and fun fighter. Where is the fun in having one mechanic do so much?

oh, and..."thats why their lower tier?" ROFL, cmon we're balancing a game here(to the best of our ability)

A perfectly balanced game is boring to an extent. There is no cheering for the underdog or upsets in matches if its perfectly balanced

 

[NinjaFoxX]

I don't see how having one mechanic responsible for fixing terrible range, terrible approaches, and terrible characters makes a diverse, interesting and fun fighter. Where is the fun in having one mechanic do so much?



A perfectly balanced game is boring.

who said "perfectly balanced?" were goinig for balance to make as many characters as possible viable

 

[kupo15]

who said "perfectly balanced?" were goinig for balance to make as many characters as possible viable

Yes but to do it with one mechanic? Thats boring and ********.

 

[Napilopez]

Well, I think we all know we can never make a game perfectly balanced without making all the chars exactly the same. There are plenty of games more balanced than brawl that are still very fun to play. Bad matchups and good matchups will still exist. Simply, we're trying to give everyone a more level playing ground.

On the other hand, I'm not for wavedashing. I personally prefer brawls airdodge system because I simply feel that as a new game it should have that distinct feel, and much of the game i believe is defined by its floatiness, which just goes better with its own airdodge system Imo.

EDIT: lol im too slow.

I dont think one mechanic wil make it balanced. it will just help things out a bit for the lower tiers with less range

 

[Osi]

I agree WD alone will not balance brawl, but I think it sure helps a few characters balance out. The discussion of adding it or not will not really be decided till all codes are in. Like the edge code that just hit, that is big for gameplay, and it's a code I will have in all my sets once working. Having a choice whether to stay on invincible or jump attack up instantly will add a ton to ledge game. Not to mention it works hand in hand with the auto sweetspot code. Unless I am mistaken the auto sweetspot gone = spikes as characters try to grab the edge? In that case you would want to attack a missed edge spike instantly and punish them!

For me it's not "Should MAD be in over BAD?".... it's a little more "Is there a HAD we can use to even out recovery?" "What other codes will MAD sacrifice for this code space?" "How long is the final MAD/HAD code?"

I for one can't wait to spike people as they try to grab that edge with falcon again. Ledge spike to taunt, epic combo!

 

[kupo15]

I dont think one mechanic wil make it balanced. it will just help things out a bit for the lower tiers with less range

I agree WD alone will not balance brawl, but I think it sure helps a few characters balance out.

Then how do you explain this?

^that...sorta

WD benifits those with terrible range, terrible approach, or...just terrible characters

This seems to be the bulk of the so called "balancing issue" that this one mechanic (WD) will help tremendously. And I'm telling you. The codes that we don't have will add a lot of options. No ASL ledges will mean that Ike can use his Dtilt spike now ect...I'm waiting to see what options we have when the basics are taken care of.

 

[Osi]

Then how do you explain this?

WD will add a bit more speed to the slow moving characters like Ike/Ganon which have no range attack. I feel this will help them a ton vs the characters like falco/pit/toon link. They can keep much more close range pressure on them with this added speed.

Overall after looking at it the WD seems to increase the speed of lower tier/slow characters(using the retail brawl tier list, which is not even close to brawl+ tier list from how things are shaping up) more than higher tier, or fast characters. It feels like WD doesn't add much speed to the fast characters in comparison, but it still does add the equal options out of it to all tier/characters (any attack out of it is the real static in WD).

While it helps approach a bit, the WD also helps slower characters link their combos much better where a fast character can link just using dash, but a slow characters dash could not keep up with the character flying away. This is really noticed on low horizontal juggle moves.

 

[kupo15]

WD will add a bit more speed to the slow moving characters like Ike/Ganon which have no range attack. I feel this will help them a ton vs the characters like falco/pit/toon link. They can keep much more close range pressure on them with this added speed.

Overall after looking at it the WD seems to increase the speed of lower tier/slow characters(using the retail brawl tier list, which is not even close to brawl+ tier list from how things are shaping up) more than higher tier, or fast characters. It feels like WD doesn't add much speed to the fast characters in comparison, but it still does add the equal options out of it to all tier/characters (any attack out of it is the real static in WD).

While it helps approach a bit, the WD also helps slower characters link their combos much better where a fast character can link just using dash, but a slow characters dash could not keep up with the character flying away. This is really noticed on low horizontal juggle moves.

Ganon doesn't need WDing to do that stuff against Pit. watch. i dont feel like finding a really good one and this was before I started spamming more but you get the idea. And this is in vanilla brawl
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcxyEL50XIs&feature=channel_page

The codes that we don't have will add a lot of options. No ASL ledges will mean that Ike can use his Dtilt spike now ect...I'm waiting to see what options we have when the basics are taken care of.

 

[Archangel]

We are not done with the codes. We just got dash canceling and lagless ledges (which help a lot) I don't believe WD is needed and so what if the lower tiers have to work harder...that's why they are low tier. And even if WD makes them a little better, there will still be low tiers. IIRC, despite WDing, Pichu still loses a lot. Its apart of the game. But we shall see what happens down the road.

And btw, ganon and samus don't really have problem with pit...trust me on that

I think that with the standard fixes, the game is more balanced than melee so no worries there.

I know My bro Main's Samus and he uses Ganon and Ike as well. So it's not like I'm talking out of my ***. I admit that Brawl was my last hope for Nintendo's Smash series. If they are not going to build a game where any person has a chance to win if they are good with that character then why not just build classes into the freaking game and get it over with. Just have Tier vs mode already and be done with it. That way low class scum fight other scum and The Elite battle against other Elite.....and MK gets left out in the cold. Seriously though. What is the point of adding more and more characters to each game when ultimately the Top Tier are the only ones that have a chance to beat each other at the highest level of all 3 games so far? Why is it that if the best player of a Mid tier character should lose out to the best player of a Top tier character simply because his character is limited? Even if he is overall better? Call me crazy, annoying, hell even idiotic but I just don't get the logic in that. I have an Idea. Why not on the next Smash Brothers just eliminate all but the top tier characters and save everyone the wasted time of practicing with a character that ultimately was created with no chance of winning?

Think about this. Why are we hacking the game in the first place? Even the ones that liked it the way it was have hacked to at least get Hitstun or no trip? No Swap out or gravity modifiers. The truth is everyone just once to make the game right and that's the problem. We shouldn't be forced to fix a peace of **** game with FAILED online play as its best feature. Too bad they don't have a hack to fix that BS....yet I know I'm rambling on but when I think about the time I wasted standing at the store for the Midnight release it just pisses me off. Fact is when everything in the game is finished being hacked the Air dodge system is going to stand in your way.

btw Kupo do you think you could beat someone that was on your level Skill wise If they had WDing and you didn't? Don't you think you'd be at a disadvantage?