Melee Air dodge VS Brawl Air dodge! Discuss, which one should be in Brawl+?

[err]

btw i think the next order of business should be allowing Yoshi to jump out of shield

c'mon that's gotta be a 1-liner (code)

 

[kupo15]

However combining them both is the best option to satisfy WD users like myself and regular brawlers like yourself.

regular brawlers does give a negative connotation as if I am a melee hater or WD hater or some casual stupid 08er that doesn't no **** about what he is talking about. Do I really need to post Melee matches of me playing to prove that I like wding or Im a good player or that Im not some dumb 08er? I really don't think I do.

I also disagree with your philosophy to have WD in the game. Why? WDing is so much easier in brawl than melee and it is more powerful than before. You don't have to worry about timing or messing up. The surplus amount of options it gives overshadows current forms of movement to a point where it takes away depth since it is the best form of movement all the time.

Do you think that you need WDing for brawl to be competitive? Do you really need all the options that WDing provides to make this game good? No. All you need is better ground movement to get off a hit that leads to a combo and DDing does this just fine without the side effect of making moves more powerful than they are and approaches more effective than they should be.

And what combos can you possibly have with WD that you couldn't before? HAD is still a flawed system. Even though it may not mess up the air game if you choose not to use it, you still have that problem that in order to compete, you must WD. How is this good for competition when your natural and unique form of movement is not good enough to compete with something so homogenized? Where is the diversity and where is the skill if WDing provides so much reward for very little risk?

Someone said something that I really agree with so I will say it. The way you guys don't like BAD by it being so powerful in the air is the same reason why I hate WDing in brawl. But the thing is, at least hit stun nerfed BAD whereas there is nothing that will ever nerf WD. WDing in brawl+ is the equivalent of BAD in vanilla brawl.

So do you want WDing because you think its good for competition or do you just want it because you can't let go?

In my experience, WDing too much only makes one predictable and the best way to use it would be to properly mix it up with other forms of movement.

When you can WD and have no lag after it with all your options availible, how are you disadvantaged? Melee had 10 frames of lag before you can do anything out of a WD..brawl has 0

 

[kangaroo]

regular brawlers does give a negative connotation as if I am a melee hater or WD hater or some casual stupid 08er that doesn't no **** about what he is talking about. Do I really need to post Melee matches of me playing to prove that I like wding or Im a good player or that Im not some dumb 08er? I really don't think I do.

I also disagree with your philosophy to have WD in the game. Why? WDing is so much easier in brawl than melee and it is more powerful than before. You don't have to worry about timing or messing up. The surplus amount of options it gives overshadows current forms of movement to a point where it takes away depth since it is the best form of movement all the time.

Do you think that you need WDing for brawl to be competitive? Do you really need all the options that WDing provides to make this game good? No. All you need is better ground movement to get off a hit that leads to a combo and DDing does this just fine without the side effect of making moves more powerful than they are and approaches more effective than they should be.

And what combos can you possibly have with WD that you couldn't before? HAD is still a flawed system. Even though it may not mess up the air game if you choose not to use it, you still have that problem that in order to compete, you must WD. How is this good for competition when your natural and unique form of movement is not good enough to compete with something so homogenized? Where is the diversity and where is the skill if WDing provides so much reward for very little risk?

Someone said something that I really agree with so I will say it. The way you guys don't like BAD by it being so powerful in the air is the same reason why I hate WDing in brawl. But the thing is, at least hit stun nerfed BAD whereas there is nothing that will ever nerf WD. WDing in brawl+ is the equivalent of BAD in vanilla brawl.

So do you want WDing because you think its good for competition or do you just want it because you can't let go?

When you can WD and have no lag after it with all your options availible, how are you disadvantaged? Melee had 10 frames of lag before you can do anything out of a WD..brawl has 0

WDing is a form of movement and your opponents can still avoid you or hit you if they know where you're going. However, I'd rather not talk about what-ifs because I don't like speculating. Many MAD brawl+ videos have been posted but you don't see much WDing in them. If WDing really was overpowered, then people should be doing it much more frequently, maybe even constantly. And I like said before, many of us have played our own MAD games and we don't find WDing to be overly useful. Who knows, maybe WDing will eventually turn out to be broken. But you can't expect the many people who prefer WDing to remove it based on speculation.

WDing is so much easier in brawl than melee

I only wish this were the case lol...

 

[Osi]

regular brawlers does give a negative connotation as if I am a melee hater or WD hater or some casual stupid 08er that doesn't no **** about what he is talking about. Do I really need to post Melee matches of me playing to prove that I like wding or Im a good player or that Im not some dumb 08er? I really don't think I do.

I also disagree with your philosophy to have WD in the game. Why? WDing is so much easier in brawl than melee and it is more powerful than before. You don't have to worry about timing or messing up. The surplus amount of options it gives overshadows current forms of movement to a point where it takes away depth since it is the best form of movement all the time.

Do you think that you need WDing for brawl to be competitive? Do you really need all the options that WDing provides to make this game good? No. All you need is better ground movement to get off a hit that leads to a combo and DDing does this just fine without the side effect of making moves more powerful than they are and approaches more effective than they should be.

And what combos can you possibly have with WD that you couldn't before? HAD is still a flawed system. Even though it may not mess up the air game if you choose not to use it, you still have that problem that in order to compete, you must WD. How is this good for competition when your natural and unique form of movement is not good enough to compete with something so homogenized? Where is the diversity and where is the skill if WDing provides so much reward for very little risk?

Someone said something that I really agree with so I will say it. The way you guys don't like BAD by it being so powerful in the air is the same reason why I hate WDing in brawl. But the thing is, at least hit stun nerfed BAD whereas there is nothing that will ever nerf WD. WDing in brawl+ is the equivalent of BAD in vanilla brawl.

So do you want WDing because you think its good for competition or do you just want it because you can't let go?

When you can WD and have no lag after it with all your options availible, how are you disadvantaged? Melee had 10 frames of lag before you can do anything out of a WD..brawl has 0

I do agree with some of the points you made. WDing does have even more power than it did in melee since you can change direction and speed so much faster than with melee WD. You can wavedash full and then cancel it with a WD straight down to stop dead on any spot really fast. Doing this and trying to use it in a combo/match isn't all that easy though. I do see different characters traveling different distances with their WD though, so for me it is just as unique as their run cycle.

For the WD affecting combos it is mostly just combos where a dash will barely reach the opponent to keep the combo going, but now you only have the option of upsmash or dash attack even though you would need a ftilt/utilt to link to a larger combo. It's useful for connecting fast horizontal combos using tilts like sheik has. There could be many uses to it just like melee had with it's WD for combos, and we won't find them out for a bit since it's so new and the game codes are still evolving.

You did bring up one good point though, WD may be too large an asset when performed perfectly, and it could replace the normal modes of movement on the ground. It could also be worked into dash dancing and lead to an awesome ground game! Only time will tell on this one.

I really would like HAD to test and see how equal the ground and air games are with it. It should be interesting. Ideally we want equal on both sides yea?

The last question you posted was a great one! I personally am behind HAD because I thoroughly believe it will lead to the deepest competitive version of brawl we could get. I would hate 2 or 3 years down the road to see that it was a mistake and the ground game is lacking because we left this out when we could have used it. Tech skill was always a draw for me though, so my idea of what is the best for competitions may be different than yours. I'd strive to make a game equal between tech skill, mind games, and solid gameplay strategies. I feel brawl+ without HAD will lack a little in tech skill/options. I am pretty set on it now! MAD = buffs only ground game too much while nerfing air, BAD = ground game is far too week compared to air..... so I'd like to get my hands on HAD for a bit and see how evenly it plays.


I must say Kupo you did shift me from wanting MAD to HAD with convincing arguments against MAD.

 

[kupo15]

WDing is a form of movement and your opponents can still avoid you or hit you if they know where you're going. However, I'd rather not talk about what-ifs because I don't like speculating. Many MAD brawl+ videos have been posted but you don't see much WDing in them. If WDing really was overpowered, then people should be doing it much more frequently, maybe even constantly. And I like said before, many of us have played our own MAD games and we don't find WDing to be overly useful. Who knows, maybe WDing will eventually turn out to be broken. But you can't expect the many people who prefer WDing to remove it based on speculation.

If you don't use WDing in your games then you can't say its not OP now. And if you don't see ppl WDing a lot, then why are you using it? There are some ppl out there like Hylian that are using the WD much more effectively than a lot of ppl who claim WDing isnt OP but he is still making mistakes that can be easily avoided.

As far as speculation, when a WD gives you 0 lag which means the next frame you can instantly do anything while moving, there is no speculation. If you get 0 lag from a WD so that you have all options availible at all times, how are your disadvantaged?

Would your views be different if I were to say that instead of only being able to grab and dash attack from a run, you have all your options availible at all times and you can change directions on the dime? If not then how about this. Would you think of WDing differently if when you move the joystick left and right, instead of running you would remain in the standing position while moving anywhere you want to go? So you basically are idling except moving. WDing is no different.

I only wish this were the case lol...

It is. 0 lag means you can interrupt the slide after at anytime with another WD or input compared to melee where you had to wait 10 frames. There is no timing which makes WDing incredibly easy to execute.

I do agree with some of the points you made. WDing does have even more power than it did in melee since you can change direction and speed so much faster than with melee WD. You can wavedash full and then cancel it with a WD straight down to stop dead on any spot really fast. Doing this and trying to use it in a combo/match isn't all that easy though. I do see different characters traveling different distances with their WD though, so for me it is just as unique as their run cycle.

For the WD affecting combos it is mostly just combos where a dash will barely reach the opponent to keep the combo going, but now you only have the option of upsmash or dash attack even though you would need a ftilt/utilt to link to a larger combo. It's useful for connecting fast horizontal combos using tilts like sheik has. There could be many uses to it just like melee had with it's WD for combos, and we won't find them out for a bit since it's so new and the game codes are still evolving.

You did bring up one good point though, WD may be too large an asset when performed perfectly, and it could replace the normal modes of movement on the ground. It could also be worked into dash dancing and lead to an awesome ground game! Only time will tell on this one.

I really would like HAD to test and see how equal the ground and air games are with it. It should be interesting. Ideally we want equal on both sides yea?

The last question you posted was a great one! I personally am behind HAD because I thoroughly believe it will lead to the deepest competitive version of brawl we could get. I would hate 2 or 3 years down the road to see that it was a mistake and the ground game is lacking because we left this out when we could have used it. Tech skill was always a draw for me though, so my idea of what is the best for competitions may be different than yours. I'd strive to make a game equal between tech skill, mind games, and solid gameplay strategies. I feel brawl+ without HAD will lack a little in tech skill/options. I am pretty set on it now! MAD = buffs only ground game too much while nerfing air, BAD = ground game is far too week compared to air..... so I'd like to get my hands on HAD for a bit and see how evenly it plays.


I must say Kupo you did shift me from wanting MAD to HAD with convincing arguments against MAD.

This game is already technical and adding hit stun and SFFLing to perform combos made this game way more technical than before. What happens if we can't get HAD because I highly doubt PW is willing to make one...

 

[Osi]

This game is already technical and adding hit stun and SFFLing to perform combos made this game way more technical than before. What happens if we can't get HAD because I highly doubt PW is willing to make one...

Yea the addition of hitstun and lag cancels did add a ton to brawl.

If there is no HAD then it would be a much harder choice for what code set I'd want to see. A long look at how bad the lack of BAD effects some characters, how much MAD adds to ground game, and is WD too broken would need to happen months from now when people are using it better.

 

[kupo15]

DDing will add a sufficient amount to the ground game. It adds more mobility but its restricted to the opening dash animation which is good.

And honestly, what is wrong with this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-J-2cKJ2Tw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFjZFZx2HUE

Can you imagine what those matches will be like with shield stun, harder Perfect shield, no auto sweetspot ledges and lagless ledges?

 

[Osi]

DDing will add a sufficient amount to the ground game. It adds more mobility but its restricted to the opening dash animation which is good.

And honestly, what is wrong with this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-J-2cKJ2Tw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFjZFZx2HUE

Can you imagine what those matches will be like with shield stun, harder Perfect shield, no auto sweetspot ledges and lagless ledges?

I think the additions that happen later on will decide MAD more than anything else just for the space. Lagless edges and shield stun will be great additions!

 

[kangaroo]

If you don't use WDing in your games then you can't say its not OP now. And if you don't see ppl WDing a lot, then why are you using it? There are some ppl out there like Hylian that are using the WD much more effectively than a lot of ppl who claim WDing isnt OP but he is still making mistakes that can be easily avoided.

As far as speculation, when a WD gives you 0 lag which means the next frame you can instantly do anything while moving, there is no speculation. If you get 0 lag from a WD so that you have all options availible at all times, how are your disadvantaged?

Would your views be different if I were to say that instead of only being able to grab and dash attack from a run, you have all your options availible at all times and you can change directions on the dime? If not then how about this. Would you think of WDing differently if when you move the joystick left and right, instead of running you would remain in the standing position while moving anywhere you want to go? So you basically are idling except moving. WDing is no different.


It is. 0 lag means you can interrupt the slide after at anytime with another WD or input compared to melee where you had to wait 10 frames. There is no timing which makes WDing incredibly easy to execute.

I don't find myself WDing a lot in my games because I often don't find it to be the best option. I use WDing because I like the options that it does give me such as being able to move backwards while still facing my opponent, getting inside my opponent to uptilt etc. As for Hylian, I would like to see some of his videos. But since Hylian is a fairly knowledgeable player, I would think he would be against WDing if it really was broken.

As I've said before, we can sit here all day and theorize with numbers and see how it looks on paper but in the end, all that matters is what actually happens in matches.

DDing will add a sufficient amount to the ground game. It adds more mobility but its restricted to the opening dash animation which is good.

And honestly, what is wrong with this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-J-2cKJ2Tw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFjZFZx2HUE

Can you imagine what those matches will be like with shield stun, harder Perfect shield, no auto sweetspot ledges and lagless ledges?

Those are great matches, but I don't think MAD would take away from them in any way.

 

[kupo15]

I think the additions that happen later on will decide MAD more than anything else just for the space. Lagless edges and shield stun will be great additions!

Since the future codes decide MAD as far as space, then there is no point debating now. Even if there is space, since MAD nerfs the air game more hit stun does and it makes the ground game really powerful, why have it when dash dancing increasing options in the ground game without the nasty side effects. Combos should not play a deciding factor in MAD because the only thing that is responsible for combos is hit stun. The combo game right now without MAD is perfectly fine that adding more unnecessary options is not good.

You want more mobility without side effects, use dash dancing. Dash dancing specifically targets the ground game by adding mobility while having restrictions. Dash dancing is all you need to buff the ground game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zk0iTsr50vw

Yea, thats good competitive spirit right there, it looks more like brawl on crack..

 

[kangaroo]

Since the future codes decide MAD as far as space, then there is no point debating now. Even if there is space, since MAD nerfs the air game more hit stun does and it makes the ground game really powerful, why have it when dash dancing increasing options in the ground game without the nasty side effects. Combos should not play a deciding factor in MAD because the only thing that is responsible for combos is hit stun. The combo game right now without MAD is perfectly fine that adding more unnecessary options is not good.

You want more mobility without side effects, use dash dancing. Dash dancing specifically targets the ground game by adding mobility while having restrictions. Dash dancing is all you need to buff the ground game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zk0iTsr50vw

Yea, thats good competitive spirit right there, it looks more like brawl on crack..

As Osi has already said, WDing increases the number of combos you can do because some combos can only be continued with a WDed attack. DD does not achieve the same things as WD and I gave two examples of things you can do with WD but not DD. As for code space, we would have to see which codes we value more.

The video was pretty entertaining although I think it could've used more hitstun. I think there was actually too much WDing since at one point CF just went over and grabbed Ike as he was WDing. I definitely don't see how the video shows that WDing is overpowered since it was used more for mindgames than anything else. There were many other approaches besides WDing and most of the initial hits did not come from a wavedashed attack.

 

[Starscream]

See how he chased CF across the stage by stacking wavedashes instead of dashing? Not only is it faster, but you can perform any action out of the wavedash. Isn't it kind of ****ed up when it's faster to stack wavedashes to chase someone across the stage rather than run? Wavedashing should a spacing and mind game tool not a replacement for dashing for slower characters. Not to mention one where you can perform any action laglessly. Also it looks ridiculous. :/

As for the actual airdodging mechanics itself, I don't really care too much. MAD or HAD, as long as the wavedashing isn't so retaded. If not then BAD. But we definitely need a larger dash dance window and for the love of god momentum from dashing carried over to your jump.

 

[Negi-Kun]

Melee is Melee. Brawl is Brawl. It's not worth debating which one is better.

 

[Davy Jones]

Ya, I agree. Anyway, melee's sucks.

 

[Revven]

Melee is Melee. Brawl is Brawl. It's not worth debating which one is better.

Ya, I agree. Anyway, melee's sucks.

Err... that's not what this thread is about...

 

[MBlaze]

Err... that's not what this thread is about...

^This, It's about finding what air dodge works best for Brawl+ and works best with Brawl's mechanics.

 

[metaXzero]

Ya, I agree. Anyway, melee's sucks.

Nice attempt to turn this into a Melee vs. Brawl flamefest.

Anyway, those vids kupo showed. I can kinda see the problem with WD>regular dash due to the lack of lag. But it doesn't seem to be too much of a problem (in comparison to the code MAD eats up).

Those vids were entertaining though. Should have had more hitstun.

 

[Davy Jones]

Brawl's midair dodge is more usefull.

 

[Shell]

It seems to me like there wouldn't be as much of an argument against wavedashing if PW or another hacker could add the 10ish frames of landing lag back in. This would remove the crazy stacked dashing that some suspect to be imbalanced.

Now this would take up more lines, but if we removed some of the code that prohibits us from moving again (with perhaps enough arial lag that we can't AD up diagonally continuously to fly) we may end up breaking even with code length.

At the same time, we would gain more robust dodging options to avoid some of brawls heavy gimping and off stage projectile spam (watch MookieRah's CF vs. Ike videos if you don't know what I'm talking about).

Add in the possible momentum-based BAD to the MAD (if no direction is pressed), and you've got a dodge mechanic with a lot of options and a lot of depth without being overpowered.

 

[Archangel]

regular brawlers does give a negative connotation as if I am a melee hater or WD hater or some casual stupid 08er that doesn't no **** about what he is talking about. Do I really need to post Melee matches of me playing to prove that I like wding or Im a good player or that Im not some dumb 08er? I really don't think I do.

I also disagree with your philosophy to have WD in the game. Why? WDing is so much easier in brawl than melee and it is more powerful than before. You don't have to worry about timing or messing up. The surplus amount of options it gives overshadows current forms of movement to a point where it takes away depth since it is the best form of movement all the time.

Do you think that you need WDing for brawl to be competitive? Do you really need all the options that WDing provides to make this game good? No. All you need is better ground movement to get off a hit that leads to a combo and DDing does this just fine without the side effect of making moves more powerful than they are and approaches more effective than they should be.

And what combos can you possibly have with WD that you couldn't before? HAD is still a flawed system. Even though it may not mess up the air game if you choose not to use it, you still have that problem that in order to compete, you must WD. How is this good for competition when your natural and unique form of movement is not good enough to compete with something so homogenized? Where is the diversity and where is the skill if WDing provides so much reward for very little risk?

Someone said something that I really agree with so I will say it. The way you guys don't like BAD by it being so powerful in the air is the same reason why I hate WDing in brawl. But the thing is, at least hit stun nerfed BAD whereas there is nothing that will ever nerf WD. WDing in brawl+ is the equivalent of BAD in vanilla brawl.

So do you want WDing because you think its good for competition or do you just want it because you can't let go?

When you can WD and have no lag after it with all your options availible, how are you disadvantaged? Melee had 10 frames of lag before you can do anything out of a WD..brawl has 0

This is what I was afraid of...misunderstanding my words. Did you not see what I posted in response to someone else accusing me of dissing you. I'm not looking down on you bro. I just disagree to put it simple. I see Brawl+ with WD as a more effective way of fighting for me. I say for me because....well lets face it. People choose setting for their benifit and It just so happens that I benefit alot more from WDing. One point I have a neighbor that is really good with MK...not the best but good. He beats me without WDing in a MK vs Luigi match. I beat him with WDing. It's basically that simple. Oh and to answer your question I've seen most of your video's for Brawl. I've stated I respect you as a player. I've seen all your vids from your first Pit vs Gannon fight to your recent Brawl+ Highlights I actually Modeled my pit after you...with a few variations but I know who you are. I don't think you suck or your a stupid 08er...whatever that means. I just think I'm better off with WDing but sometime I do miss the Air dodge freedom of Brawl. That is why In my post I suggested that they combine the Mechanics of both to keep WDing but perhaps take away the OPness it does add to some characters. You may have a point...perhaps I played Melee so long that it's style is permanently imprinted on me. I just miss the days where Bottom tiers had more than a 10% chance to beat the very best....that's all.

 

[MuBa]

Hey guys I just wanted to know which game is better, Brawl or Melee? If so, and why?
.
.
.
.
...............................................................Ahem anyways I believe that WD takes up too many lines of code, so if we do have any space left, which I highly doubt given the other codes we have, then I guess we could add it in, but for the most part I forecast a nay to WD in Brawl+ at the moment.

 

[kupo15]

This is what I was afraid of...misunderstanding my words. Did you not see what I posted in response to someone else accusing me of dissing you. I'm not looking down on you bro. I just disagree to put it simple. I see Brawl+ with WD as a more effective way of fighting for me. I say for me because....well lets face it. People choose setting for their benifit and It just so happens that I benefit alot more from WDing. One point I have a neighbor that is really good with MK...not the best but good. He beats me without WDing in a MK vs Luigi match. I beat him with WDing. It's basically that simple. Oh and to answer your question I've seen most of your video's for Brawl. I've stated I respect you as a player. I've seen all your vids from your first Pit vs Gannon fight to your recent Brawl+ Highlights I actually Modeled my pit after you...with a few variations but I know who you are. I don't think you suck or your a stupid 08er...whatever that means. I just think I'm better off with WDing but sometime I do miss the Air dodge freedom of Brawl. That is why In my post I suggested that they combine the Mechanics of both to keep WDing but perhaps take away the OPness it does add to some characters. You may have a point...perhaps I played Melee so long that it's style is permanently imprinted on me. I just miss the days where Bottom tiers had more than a 10% chance to beat the very best....that's all.

Ahh np dude. I wasn't really mad because yes I did read what he wrote and your response. This is why I said that it has a negative connotation instead going right into w/e

I should have worded my post better to reflect that I wasn't angry. Sorry ^_^

 

[maplesyrupandjam]

Hey guys I just wanted to know which game is better, Brawl or Melee? If so, and why?
.
.
.
.
...............................................................Ahem anyways I believe that WD takes up too many lines of code, so if we do have any space left, which I highly doubt given the other codes we have, then I guess we could add it in, but for the most part I forecast a nay to WD in Brawl+ at the moment.

Okay this is something I've wondering for awhile but I've been too embarrassed to ask. Is there supposed to be a limit to the codes you can put in the game?? Why is everyone so concerned about how many lines of code there are? Does something happen when there are too many?... What is too many? Is this about sd card space?? I'm really confused...

 

[Almas]

There is a limit of 256 lines of code. This is because of the limited unused RAM space on the Wii, or something similar. So the fact that MAD uses 88 lines is definitely cause for concern.

 

[Osi]

One of the major reasons I am in favor of WD is for the low tiers too!

Link for example in melee didn't benefit from WDing, but his WD in brawl is amazing. This is the same for some other characters which have horrid movement like ganon and ike. I don't see a large speed increase when I WD on fox/falco/MK/G&W compared to the slower characters. There are even some characters not that slow down the tier list like luigi which profit from this. Although many characters seem to have simular WDs there is a difference between them, it's not one set WD length.

A good example of how WDing can add depth can be seen on link.
(opponent at 10-15%)fair -> up tilt 2 times -> nair -> WD utilt...... this would not be possible without WD and the last utilt prepares them for more combinations. I know you can DI out and all, just showing it as a case where WDing adds more options than the game without WD in. Sure you could use dash attack here, but the pop from it would be lower leading to different attacks while the WD uptilt pops them higher. You can also replace the WD utilt with other moves... so say the nair hits them towards the edge you can WD ftilt them off the stage pretty far.

 

[Kix]

The only potential problem I see with the WDing is how fast you can act out of it.

How many characters is it faster to WD with than run? I think it would be a good tool for getting around hitboxes in addition to its other uses.

 

[kupo15]

One of the major reasons I am in favor of WD is for the low tiers too!

Link for example in melee didn't benefit from WDing, but his WD in brawl is amazing. This is the same for some other characters which have horrid movement like ganon and ike. I don't see a large speed increase when I WD on fox/falco/MK/G&W compared to the slower characters. There are even some characters not that slow down the tier list like luigi which profit from this. Although many characters seem to have simular WDs there is a difference between them, it's not one set WD length.

A good example of how WDing can add depth can be seen on link.
(opponent at 10-15%)fair -> up tilt 2 times -> nair -> WD utilt...... this would not be possible without WD and the last utilt prepares them for more combinations. I know you can DI out and all, just showing it as a case where WDing adds more options than the game without WD in. Sure you could use dash attack here, but the pop from it would be lower leading to different attacks while the WD uptilt pops them higher. You can also replace the WD utilt with other moves... so say the nair hits them towards the edge you can WD ftilt them off the stage pretty far.

You can't just tailor to the low tiers. The low tiers don't need WDing to compete. They need l canceling, hit stun, shield stun and nerfed ledges. Also, we don't what the tier list for brawl+ is anyway. You can't assume that because they were low tier in vanilla brawl that they keep there spot in brawl+. Look at Falcon, I highly doubt he is still the worst in the game.

And even if we know who the low tiers are and you use WDing to buff the low tiers, there will still be tiers. There will still be low tier characters that you will probably want to beef up with some other unnecessary hack that hurts another part of the game. We can't be adding hacks that the only reason we are adding them for low tiers. We need to be adding codes like hit stun and l canceling that has an impact on the entire game as a whole without bad side effects. If you want to buff certain low tier characters, that is what individual character buffs are for.

The lagless WDes is also a big problem. If you want wavedashing in brawl, the best solution is to find wavedashing in brawl without hacks instead of completely changing the air dodge system. I feel that the game revolves around the air dodge system and by breaking that, you are destroying the mainframe of the system which causes a meltdown..

EDIT: And for proof that low tiers don't need WDing to compete, Link and Bowser hardly ever WDed in melee and yet look at Gimpyfish and Aniki. L canceling, hit stun, shield stun and good ledges are what allowed them to compete.

 

[Osi]

EDIT: And for proof that low tiers don't need WDing to compete, Link and Bowser hardly ever WDed in melee and yet look at Gimpyfish and Aniki. L canceling, hit stun, shield stun and good ledges are what allowed them to compete.

Do you think they could have competed on a more even level with a better WD in melee though?

 

[Starscream]

Possibly but it still wouldn't be the same as what Brawl wavedashing allows you to do nor would it replace their dash as a faster form of movement with all their offensive and defensive options open at any moment.

 

[kupo15]

Do you think they could have competed on a more even level with a better WD in melee though?

I don't think so. The only thing I can think of Bowser and Link and the other sucky WDes in melee would use it for is edge hogging and that use is gone in brawl. And Im sure if WDing would help them compete at a more even level they would have used it.

The difference is, some characters in melee can't rely on WDing to compete but in Brawl, everyone relies on WDing to compete.

 

[Osi]

=And Im sure if WDing would help them compete at a more even level they would have used it.

The difference is, some characters in melee can't rely on WDing to compete but in Brawl, everyone relies on WDing to compete.

I was thinking more along the lines of "what if bowser had luigi's WD" in melee only. It's hard to say what the impact would have been and if they would have used it more. They simply didn't have a good WD to try and use in melee is all I meant.

 

[zxeon]

It's not the WD's fault approaches suck in Brawl. There was crouch canceling, pivots, and jump canceled grabs. Brawl has none of that.

 

[Osi]

This is true, brawl lacked a lot of things offensive making the game very hit and run.

 

[kupo15]

Then add these elements back in instead of assigning wavedashing to it. 64 had a lot of mobility and approach options without wavedashing so we know that wavedashing isn't the only way to make approaches better. The problem with WDing in brawl is that it has bad side effects to it and it behaves more than just a spacing tool.

If you want more approach options, bring back the things that are responsible for that which are dash dancing, possibly dash canceling, and believe it or not, shield stun and nerfed perfect shields. Nerfing of the shields will make up for the lack of approach options more than anything else.

 

[storm92]

I want my JC grabs back =(

Okay, I admit its simply me being lazy and not wanting to learn shield grabs over JC, but they were just so amazing.

 

[Archangel]

Ahh np dude. I wasn't really mad because yes I did read what he wrote and your response. This is why I said that it has a negative connotation instead going right into w/e

I should have worded my post better to reflect that I wasn't angry. Sorry ^_^

Cool Beans. I should have worded my initial post better and this mess would've been avoided then. I think that WD isn't a necessity if you have Hitstun. I think that is the major difference in my game and yours. I'm defensive minded your offensive minded. I play with WD and no hitstun and you play Hitstun wave dash. It's just different strokes for different folks. Unless they come up with an Air dodge system that combines both successfully then their with just be Brawl+ and Brawl- IMO.

 

[KillL0ck]

I think they should keep the current airdodge, however make it so it has landing lag(Just for you dodge whores who can get away with a quick PowerShield).

 

[Osi]

Then add these elements back in instead of assigning wavedashing to it. 64 had a lot of mobility and approach options without wavedashing so we know that wavedashing isn't the only way to make approaches better. The problem with WDing in brawl is that it has bad side effects to it and it behaves more than just a spacing tool.

If you want more approach options, bring back the things that are responsible for that which are dash dancing, possibly dash canceling, and believe it or not, shield stun and nerfed perfect shields. Nerfing of the shields will make up for the lack of approach options more than anything else.

I totally agree shield stun and harder perfect shielding would help a lot. I'm not trying to imply WD be set in place of these things or used to fix approaches. I just think it helps offense on ground game whether or not those other attributes listed make it to brawl+. I'd love to see all those in with WDing.

 

[kupo15]

Cool Beans. I should have worded my initial post better and this mess would've been avoided then. I think that WD isn't a necessity if you have Hitstun. I think that is the major difference in my game and yours. I'm defensive minded your offensive minded. I play with WD and no hitstun and you play Hitstun wave dash. It's just different strokes for different folks. Unless they come up with an Air dodge system that combines both successfully then their with just be Brawl+ and Brawl- IMO.

I don't use WDing lol XD

 

[MuBa]

It's not the WD's fault approaches suck in Brawl. There was crouch canceling, pivots, and jump canceled grabs. Brawl has none of that.

My run cancel code covers that except for crouch cancel.