Melee Air dodge VS Brawl Air dodge! Discuss, which one should be in Brawl+?

[kupo15]

i was saying that just deleting lines will give you a beta HAD will not work. MAD is programmed so once you AD, it puts you in a state where you can control where you go. So you can AD left and right in one AD. It does not take into account a direction associated with the AD when you press L. So you need to probably need to make a new code that recognizes if you are holding a direction to go in that direction, if not, then you abort the code.

 

[plasmatorture]

Kupo you keep mentioning how we need a code to dash dance but you already can dash dance in brawl.

Are you wanting a code that makes dash dancing easier?

 

[kupo15]

no, we need a code to make DD longer. It is quite useless atm.

 

[Osi]

So had is just BAD in the air with movement instead of being stationary? It gives you all the options in the air, and WD on the ground? If this is the case then this HAD is most definitely what i support.

 

[kangaroo]

I thought HAD was MAD except that it doesn't make you helpless and is still only allowed once. I don't think anyone is suggesting infinite directional air-dodging lol.

 

[Osi]

Well then I want HAD lol, we need a hacker! Sounds like an option which leaves anyone happy.

 

[kupo15]

no i think HAD is BAD if you just tap the shield and MAD when you tap shield with a direction. Nothing is more important than shield and ledge nerfs right now though

 

[ExCeL 52]

This is easy...
Think of how everyone was in Melee when they didnt have Wd'ing

Now think of how everyone is now in brawl when they STILL dont have Wd'ing


Brawl wins....

 

[zxeon]

Put HAD under movement on the code list and not "other stuff".

 

[Heavyarms2050]

c-c-c-combo breaker

what doe HAD abbreviate to?

 

[NinjaFoxX]

c-c-c-combo breaker

what doe HAD abbreviate to?

Hybrid Air Dash, the combination of taking MAD for the WD and BAD for aerial improvement


now,kupo, making DD longer would make it more laggy and slower,DD is good as it is now as long as we have no trip on

 

[leafgreen386]

It won't make it slower. It will just increase the number of frames of the initial dash animation in which you can dashdance.

 

[Starscream]

1 MAD without being helpless after wards sounds pretty awesome actually (is this the proposed Hybrid?). I could see it adding a new element to the air game like someone comes at you with an Uair and you airdodge up and counter attack with a Dair or something. I dunno, it sounds and looks pretty cool in my head anyways. But would you get your airdodge back if someone hits you after you use it but haven't landed yet? Kinda like when someone interrupts your Up+B.

 

[Team Giza]

As far as I can tell wavedashing does not seem like the way to go for making ground battles better. We don't need that many ground attack options all the time while moving at high speeds on the ground. Limiting options on faster movements can actually increase the depth of the game by making it so there are more situations that can be created. Wavedashing in the form it is in now is not going to make the game more diverse or deep it is just going to make it different and slightly more technical. What would help the game? Real ssb64/melee styled dashdancing and having the ability to shield cancel the opening part of your dash. This will greatly increase and diversify the ground game much more than wavedashing can do. Even if you have that and throw wavedashing on top of it it wouldn't be as good since wavedashing would overpower the rest of the ground options too much. We need to be able to find a healthy way to give more balanced grounded options while at the same time not messing with the air game too much.

We do need airdodge changes but MAD is not the way to go. BAD does have its advantages in this game that has more of its gameplay in the air. The problem with BAD? Not enough risk for that kind of reward. The best solution I can think of to this problem is to make it so that activating your airdodge isn't as safe by making it so that the winddown time is increased so you will be more easily pushed for using it at the wrong time. On a side note, I think the same thing should be done with sidestepping.

 

[kupo15]

We need to be able to find a healthy way to give more balanced grounded options while at the same time not messing with the air game too much.

I agree. The air already received its nerf...hit stun.

 

[zxeon]

1 MAD without being helpless after wards sounds pretty awesome actually (is this the proposed Hybrid?). I could see it adding a new element to the air game like someone comes at you with an Uair and you airdodge up and counter attack with a Dair or something. I dunno, it sounds and looks pretty cool in my head anyways. But would you get your airdodge back if someone hits you after you use it but haven't landed yet? Kinda like when someone interrupts your Up+B.

Of course you would get it back.

 

[zxeon]

I agree. The air already received its nerf...hit stun.

As far as I can tell wavedashing does not seem like the way to go for making ground battles better. We don't need that many ground attack options all the time while moving at high speeds on the ground. Limiting options on faster movements can actually increase the depth of the game by making it so there are more situations that can be created. Wavedashing in the form it is in now is not going to make the game more diverse or deep it is just going to make it different and slightly more technical. What would help the game? Real ssb64/melee styled dashdancing and having the ability to shield cancel the opening part of your dash. This will greatly increase and diversify the ground game much more than wavedashing can do. Even if you have that and throw wavedashing on top of it it wouldn't be as good since wavedashing would overpower the rest of the ground options too much. We need to be able to find a healthy way to give more balanced grounded options while at the same time not messing with the air game too much.

We do need airdodge changes but MAD is not the way to go. BAD does have its advantages in this game that has more of its gameplay in the air. The problem with BAD? Not enough risk for that kind of reward. The best solution I can think of to this problem is to make it so that activating your airdodge isn't as safe by making it so that the winddown time is increased so you will be more easily pushed for using it at the wrong time. On a side note, I think the same thing should be done with sidestepping.

The wavedash is not what will hit your opponent your attack will. Don't think of it as a WD what you should be thinking of is the attack that will be excecuted out of the wavedash. To my memory WDing at an opponent has never killed them. MAD does not suit this game that is what the HAD is all about it marries the best of both worlds with an appropriate amount of risk/reward.

 

[leafgreen386]

Ideally they would place a check that makes sure you actually land before giving you back your airdodge.

I still dislike the use of either MAD or HAD. See, one of the things kupo keeps arguing is that brawl is an "air based game." I don't entirely agree with this. Rather, I would say ts was an "air based game." Brawl+ will (ideally) create a game where both the ground and air games are equal.

Right now, hitstun moderates the importance of the air game; no longer does the game go directly from ground to air with no transition in between. Hitstun creates this transition. The introduction of comboing to brawl+ essentially splits the game into three parts. 1) Pre-combo/Approach - mostly ground game. 2) Combo - whether it's ground or air doesn't really matter since they're in hitstun. 3) Post-combo/Chasing and Escape - mostly air game as the opponent tries to get away from you after they're out of hitstun.

Honestly, the only thing the game needs is slightly more options on the ground to bring the two level with each other, which roughly just translates into all we need is dashdancing to open up ground options. The MAD makes escaping after a combo harder, nerfing the airgame more than is necessary, while also placing a strong demand on the ground game due to the presence of wavedashing. Wavedashing makes ground movement too good, by giving everyone a very strong and very generic approach - specific matchups begin to lose in their importance as everyone really only needs to know one effective approach. Sure, this might end up "balancing" the game more than anything else, but we could make the game perfectly and 100% "balanced" just by removing every character in the game except MK. There's nothing wrong with giving characters more options, but different characters should be able to use these options more or less effectively than others. Wavedashing is very effective with every character, which imo is a problem.

Now, for the HAD. I'm actually worried that this will give more of an advantage to the defender in the air than the aggressor, but it might not be that bad, at least as far as air play is concerned. It still presents the problem that is wavedashing, though.

 

[zxeon]

Some characters already have differences. There are a host of characters that when executing a smash attack halt thier momentum completely while others continue with thier slides. These two differences both have thier pros and cons and make every characters wavedash approach unique. And how can an approach be generic? Aren't all character's runs and jumps similar except for a few variables?

 

[leafgreen386]

I'm sorry, but there is not much difference between approaching with wavedash -> ftilt and wavedash -> dsmash with a different character. They're both approaches that come at you basically the same way, and they both will require basically the same reaction to counter them.

edit: and actually, after thinking about it more, I think that the HAD does not only not combine "the best of both worlds" for the BAD and MAD, but it actually does the complete opposite. It is taking the worst aspect of both ADs, by giving the defender the advantage in the air while implementing WDing on the ground. It's awful.

 

[Heavyarms2050]

with BAD, yoshi is nerfed, with HAD, everything is fine

 

[leafgreen386]

with BAD, yoshi is nerfed, with HAD, everything is fine

Uh... I hope you meant MAD when you said that, and not BAD, because BAD is far better for yoshi than MAD.

 

[Team Giza]

The wavedash is not what will hit your opponent your attack will. Don't think of it as a WD what you should be thinking of is the attack that will be excecuted out of the wavedash.

Yes that is what I am thinking it off. Wavedashing in its current form is **** fast, and you can do any move out of it. This destroys basically any other form of ground movement and significantly decreases the amount of situations that can occur on the ground. It does give a good fake out game with more options afterward than dash dancing could ever do. The problem here is there is no risk to wavedashing, you always have all your moves ready to go right away. For the same reason a lot of you dislike brawl airdodging is the same reason I hate brawl wavedashing. Its great reward for no risk. It takes all the situations available and makes them more similar. Basically all this is going to do is make the game easier, less diverse, and widens the gap between the ground play ability based on characters alone (thus imbalance the game A LOT).

To my memory WDing at an opponent has never killed them.

Duh. But I'm not saying wavedashing is gonna let you completely crush the opponent. I'm saying it makes all the other movement techniques and approaches pale in comparison and thus wavedashing is used FAR more often. This decreases the amount of different situations and causes the game to be more shallow.

MAD does not suit this game that is what the HAD is all about it marries the best of both worlds with an appropriate amount of risk/reward.

I don't see how. The current idea for HAD sounds even more overpowered than MAD. We need to just make it so there is more lag on brawl airdodges all the time. This will make being in the air a lot more risking and will help out ground play a lot. Then we have shield cancelable initial dashes and dashdancing to help deepen the ground game fighting. It will help in balancing out the entire game.

 

[zxeon]

Uh... I hope you meant MAD when you said that, and not BAD, because BAD is far better for yoshi than MAD.

Lol, typos.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

I KNOW! ok so since wavedashing makes all other forms of ground movement obsolete, i have an excellent suggestion, lets introduce a new mechanic: spontaneous combustion. due to the newly introduced fast paced movement of brawl it only makes sense the movement of bodies would cause some kind of exothermic reaction. we would give every player a 5% chance they will randomly combust into a fiery inferno. that way the insane movements will be balanced and will add dynamic gameplay and a random fun factor!

DUDE LOL U TOTALLY JUST RANDOMLY COMBUSTED DUDE I KNOW LOL I WAS JUST ABOUT TO SMASH U TOO! see! fun for everyone!

 

[kupo15]

^sounds better than tripping

 

[Heavyarms2050]

Lol, typos.

meh ppl make mistakes

 

[NinjaFoxX]

I KNOW! ok so since wavedashing makes all other forms of ground movement obsolete, i have an excellent suggestion, lets introduce a new mechanic: spontaneous combustion. due to the newly introduced fast paced movement of brawl it only makes sense the movement of bodies would cause some kind of exothermic reaction. we would give every player a 5% chance they will randomly combust into a fiery inferno. that way the insane movements will be balanced and will add dynamic gameplay and a random fun factor!

DUDE LOL U TOTALLY JUST RANDOMLY COMBUSTED DUDE I KNOW LOL I WAS JUST ABOUT TO SMASH U TOO! see! fun for everyone!

make the code for it and we'll talk.

how about we take air dodging out all toghether,meaning we can air dodge, but we can dodge in any direction, we just dodge while keeping our momentum

 

[storm92]

meh ppl make mistakes

I just have to say SPACE MARINES @ your avvy.
Heh, too much DoW.

Anyways, Jiang, isn't that just like...explosive tripping?

 

[leafgreen386]

Anyways, Jiang, isn't that just like...explosive tripping?

Yes it is. Don't you see the beauty of it? It's the perfect balancing mechanism!

 

[Archangel]

At this point 1 or the other will not work. We need a combination of the two. They need the MAD without the helpless failing to the ground. However they should have more than 1 air dodge. They can't have unlimited like Brawl because some characters would float forever. I say they make the maximum Brelee style air dodge to 3. I'd say thats fair and the Direction control would drastically help characters like Donkey Kong's recovery. Just my opinion.

 

[kupo15]

At this point 1 or the other will not work. We need a combination of the two. They need the MAD without the helpless failing to the ground. However they should have more than 1 air dodge. They can't have unlimited like Brawl because some characters would float forever. I say they make the maximum Brelee style air dodge to 3. I'd say thats fair and the Direction control would drastically help characters like Donkey Kong's recovery. Just my opinion.

lol You guys make it sound like its hard to recover in brawl.....

 

[Archangel]

lol You guys make it sound like its hard to recover in brawl.....

Well you and I main pit so no it isn't a problem for us. However for other characters it is a problem to recover. let alone deal with the camping.

 

[kupo15]

Well you and I main pit so no it isn't a problem for us. However for other characters it is a problem to recover. let alone deal with the camping.

Yea pit has no problem, but I have been using CF a lot on brawl+ and recovery isn't that big of an issue. And Dk's recovery is fine anyway. Recovery shouldn't be easy either because with good DI, even Link can make it to the ledge. Ppls recoveries are not equal and should not be equal. Its a weakness for that character that you have to deal with...in fact, auto sweet spot makes good recoveries better....

 

[Almas]

Camping is much less of an issue with increased hitstun. Previously, once you did get inside somebody's wall of projectiles, you could hit them once, maybe twice before they could retreat to a safe distance. Now, being able to get close to someone means that you can rack up a reasonable amount of damage - often more than that which they did by camping in the first place. A single slipup in a camp-heavy game will result in a good %age punishment.

Shieldstun will reduce it even further by stopping shieldgrabs from being the ultimate defense for a campy player. Projectiles will have to be used as part of an agressive game rather than as a run and spam mechanism.

I can't think of a single character who I have a hard time recovering with, and this is with 1.165x gravity. Some characters do have short-range recoveries, but that's usually counteracted by them being a beast to get off the stage in the first place.

I like Melee Airdodging for the wavedash, but ultimately I think it has a tendency to make certain projectiles overpowering (Pit's Arrows, Din's Fire). When considering the abundant elegant solutions about (e.g. 1 MAD, 1 BAD), we need to consider that the length of just MAD is already chokingly large, and trying to make it even more complex means it will dominate a finite space that other important codes need to be put into.

 

[Finns7]

1 MAD and after that only allow upB or speacials

 

[Archangel]

Yea pit has no problem, but I have been using CF a lot on brawl+ and recovery isn't that big of an issue. And Dk's recovery is fine anyway. Recovery shouldn't be easy either because with good DI, even Link can make it to the ledge. Ppls recoveries are not equal and should not be equal. Its a weakness for that character that you have to deal with...in fact, auto sweet spot makes good recoveries better....

well Auto sweet spot is gay to me....but I think anything that is Auto is gay and skill less IMO. However I'm not sure that Captain Falcon will ever be his old self until they hack the movement in the game. I just don't think movement should be that stiff personally. Recovery from what I've seen is indeed difficult for some characters and having to deal with edge guards from MK's and even pit's it isn't easy with limited air dodges and that's both MAD and BAD. However combining them both is the best option to satisfy WD users like myself and regular brawlers like yourself.

 

[leafgreen386]

You just called kupo a regular brawler... when he's one of the most avid brawl+ supporters on this site.

The wavedash itself provides a problem. People don't not like the MAD just because of the air aspect of it. They dislike it for the wavedash, as well.

 

[Archangel]

You just called kupo a regular brawler... when he's one of the most avid brawl+ supporters on this site.

The wavedash itself provides a problem. People don't not like the MAD just because of the air aspect of it. They dislike it for the wavedash, as well.

no no no no no! you misunderstand me. However I just feel the main thing that separates Brawl and Melee is the WD. I like he doesn't that's what I meant. I respect Kupo alot, I've seen most of his youtube vids and I respect him as a player but we just disagree on the smash philosophy is all. The reason I said that They should combine the Mechanics of Brawl air dodge and Melee air dodge so that we both would be happy. Surely I think that Sonic and Captain Falcon don't need WD but Luigi was my one of my Mains on Melee and he's a lot better with MAD....its that simple for me.

 

[kangaroo]

Uh... I hope you meant MAD when you said that, and not BAD, because BAD is far better for yoshi than MAD.

This is a hasty assumption that may not be true. Many people are concerned with yoshi's recovery but don't realize that it's really not one of the worse things about him, not in melee, and especially not in brawl. In the long run, no one can be certain how each air dodge would affect yoshi overall. But I have found some ways that yoshi benefits from MAD:

- Yoshi's smashes and tilts work very well with his WD
- With hitstun, yoshi's airspeed may give him certain advantages in aerial combat but BAD could take away from this
- having a directional airdodge is a good recovery tool for yoshi, probably more so than for other characters
- Yoshi's eggs are buffed with MAD

In regards to MAD for all characters, I think it's pure speculation that MAD will mess up the air game and WDing will ruin the ground game. Many of us are playing with MAD and our experiences don't find this to be true. In fact, in many of our matches, we hardly WD at all. This indicates that we don't know how to fully utilize the WD yet, so it wouldn't make sense to assume that it will overpower all other ground options. In my experience, WDing too much only makes one predictable and the best way to use it would be to properly mix it up with other forms of movement.