Melee Air dodge VS Brawl Air dodge! Discuss, which one should be in Brawl+?

[MookieRah]

I think the reason that MAD is so large is because you completely work the Brawl airdodge. I'm thinking the lines of code that is used to restrict movement take up no more than 5-10 lines. Overall, I think MAD isn't as important as other things, and if it comes down to code space it should be tossed off the boat.

 

[kupo15]

I really think MAD is unnecessary. You don't need..srsly, the game is way better off without it....

Watch how fast this is, and it will get even faster with shield stun and ledge nerfs....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-J-2cKJ2Tw&feature=channel_page

 

[Dan_X]

I really think MAD is unnecessary. You don't need..srsly, the game is way better off without it....

Watch how fast this is, and it will get even faster with shield stun and ledge nerfs....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-J-2cKJ2Tw&feature=channel_page

I dunno man, MAD in Brawl is pretty much win.

 

[kupo15]

I dunno man, MAD in Brawl is pretty much win.

Not with 88 lines its not. The game feels really smooth as it is right now. I can't wait for the shield and ledge nerfs

 

[Osi]

I really think MAD is unnecessary. You don't need..srsly, the game is way better off without it....

Watch how fast this is, and it will get even faster with shield stun and ledge nerfs....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-J-2cKJ2Tw&feature=channel_page

I do agree it is faster now with the hacks, and that the ledge nerfs will help a lot. If fast falling can be modded that would help too.

I do however think MAD would add even more speed on top of this. It's taking a while to get WDing down on brawl, the timing feels a little different, but the speed increase from it is noticeable(I notice it the most on zelda/fox/falcon).

Without even taking in speed... MAD adds more options for attack entries. Options like WD tilts/smashes(really cool for coming at someone backwards with a utilt entry like fox's), wavelands, spacing without having to enter the dash animation, platform dashing to airs, feints/fakes, extra forward movement before grapples, and waveslide up from the edge into an attack. We haven't really tapped into what it can do yet IMO, and there were many combos/entries in melee possible only with WDing. Who knows how MAD could change a character's combo system. I do want attacks turned on after MAD is used giving some characters more options to recover with B moves.

I can see why BAD has some nice features, and saving that code space may be important if it is really needed. I think it's all going to come down to how big all the codes are in the end, and what would be taking MADs place on the list. If it was say "Faster fast falling + ledge nerf" or "MAD" for the last 80.... that would be a rough choice, and I most likely would ditch MAD in that case.

 

[kangaroo]

I think the code space for MAD is worth it, but it's likely that the number can be reduced. options and depth of WDing have a greater impact on the game than other hacks. I think MAD increases the interest in Brawl+ since it's very noticeable. Also, brawl+ needs support from melee vets, and many of them prefer MAD.

And another thing, BAD, along with auto-ledge snapping, takes away from the edge game.

 

[plasmatorture]

I still think MAD without helpless is the best compromise, assuming it takes significantly less lines. I'd love to have it around to test either way though.

 

[Osi]

A lot of the real debate can't happen till we see how hard shield stun, ledge nerfing, PS, and faster fast falling would be to fit in there. We really would need rough numbers on some of that to see how it compares to MAD's size, and how much room it leaves.

 

[SGX]

I like WDing, I really do, but I'm not a huge fan of the way WD works with the current code.

If there was a way to make it so that your shield didn't pop up immediately, killing your WD distance, I think I'd like it a lot better. Currently, it just doesn't feel right. I find myself rarely WDing in brawl. I do really like being able to control the direction in which I airdodge though.

Some acceptable compromises (imo):
1 MAD with the ability to BAD afterward
1 MAD with the ability to do anything but AD again afterward

But yeah, I would like WDing a lot better if you had to hit L again to bring up your shield, or make the shield not come up until your WD is complete.

Side note to Kupo: watching that video made me think that Falcon's priority problems could possibly stem from the fact that he's simply not as fast as he should be. I know there's a code for super falcon, or whatever. Does anyone know what part of the code affects just his speed? I'd like to try making him 5-10% faster and see what happens, just for curiosity sake.

 

[peachfvl]

1 MAD with the ability to do anything but AD again afterward sounds good to me and probably will reduce the amount of code lines used.
can the WD code be changed so the Wd distance is reduced, like taking the traction of the used char. and reduce it?

 

[kupo15]

I highly doubt PW will edit his MAD code. He was hesitant about fixing his l cancel code which is why im waiting till the end.

I like WDing, I really do, but I'm not a huge fan of the way WD works with the current code.

If there was a way to make it so that your shield didn't pop up immediately, killing your WD distance, I think I'd like it a lot better. Currently, it just doesn't feel right. I find myself rarely WDing in brawl. I do really like being able to control the direction in which I airdodge though.

Some acceptable compromises (imo):
1 MAD with the ability to BAD afterward
1 MAD with the ability to do anything but AD again afterward

But yeah, I would like WDing a lot better if you had to hit L again to bring up your shield, or make the shield not come up until your WD is complete.

Side note to Kupo: watching that video made me think that Falcon's priority problems could possibly stem from the fact that he's simply not as fast as he should be. I know there's a code for super falcon, or whatever. Does anyone know what part of the code affects just his speed? I'd like to try making him 5-10% faster and see what happens, just for curiosity sake.

I was thinking maybe falcon can keep his run speed in the air. but just a thought

 

[SGX]

I think EVERYONE should keep their momentum when they jump. That would actually help him a lot too.

 

[peachfvl]

MK keeping his running momentum will be scary imo.
sonic´s airspeed will be crazy too

 

[Osi]

I like WDing, I really do, but I'm not a huge fan of the way WD works with the current code.

If there was a way to make it so that your shield didn't pop up immediately, killing your WD distance, I think I'd like it a lot better. Currently, it just doesn't feel right. I find myself rarely WDing in brawl. I do really like being able to control the direction in which I airdodge though.

Some acceptable compromises (imo):
1 MAD with the ability to BAD afterward
1 MAD with the ability to do anything but AD again afterward

But yeah, I would like WDing a lot better if you had to hit L again to bring up your shield, or make the shield not come up until your WD is complete.

Side note to Kupo: watching that video made me think that Falcon's priority problems could possibly stem from the fact that he's simply not as fast as he should be. I know there's a code for super falcon, or whatever. Does anyone know what part of the code affects just his speed? I'd like to try making him 5-10% faster and see what happens, just for curiosity sake.

I agree that MAD with the ability to do anything but AD again after would improve things a bit, but if PW does not want to change the code then there isn't much we can do really unless someone else wants to take a crack at it. I'm so happy with all that he's contributed, so it feels a little greedy to ask him to go back and make minor changes for us.

As for the shield thing, that will stop with practice. I now use the Z button to WD in brawl and my shield is never up when I WD at all. I did have that issue for a bit using the R button, but now I can use R without the shield going up too. I think it's just one of those things that will go away with time.

 

[kupo15]

can the WD code be changed so the Wd distance is reduced, like taking the traction of the used char. and reduce it?

No it cant unless you want the AD to be twice as long and twice as slow. The wavedash slide is determined by physics. The only way to do this iss to increase friction to everyone and increase horizontal speed. But changing friction and stuff like this is a really slipperly slope...

 

[zxeon]

MAD with the ability to do anything but airdodge again is the way to go. The game needs it.

 

[kupo15]

With the right hit stun, BAD isn't that bad. If you think that BAD gives you too much aerial freedom, then how about this. If anything, I think the only nerf you could give BAD is to not be able to AD while in the tumble like melee. This way it forces you to use an attack or jump as soon as hitstun wears off.

 

[SGX]

I don't feel like BAD gives me too much freedom. I feel like it doesn't give me enough control.

 

[MuBa]

I think once we get a better dash dance along with my Run Cancel code, I'm sure you'll be having decent amount of options.

 

[Supernova757]

i think the melee one should be in brawl bcz the brawl air dodge was the main reasonw hy their basically r no freaken combos in bral!

 

[kupo15]

i think the melee one should be in brawl bcz the brawl air dodge was the main reasonw hy their basically r no freaken combos in bral!

No, its the hitstun

Air dodging is not responsible for combos..hitstun is

 

[goldemblem]

Brawl air dodge it's great it allows to counter incoming attacks and retaliate combined with Brawl's floatiness the air games are way better

 

[Osi]

No, its the hitstun

Air dodging is not responsible for combos..hitstun is

I agree completely, brawl lacking combos has nothing to do with airdodge. I would say MAD would add a few... but it's such a minor addition to combos compared to hitstun. MAD is more for fluid play, spacing, and mindgames than just combo additions (not to say it hurts combos at all).

 

[Dan_X]

lot's of stuff..

I do agree it is faster now with the hacks, and that the ledge nerfs will help a lot. If fast falling can be modded that would help too.

I do however think MAD would add even more speed on top of this. It's taking a while to get WDing down on brawl, the timing feels a little different, but the speed increase from it is noticeable(I notice it the most on zelda/fox/falcon).

Without even taking in speed... MAD adds more options for attack entries. Options like WD tilts/smashes(really cool for coming at someone backwards with a utilt entry like fox's), wavelands, spacing without having to enter the dash animation, platform dashing to airs, feints/fakes, extra forward movement before grapples, and waveslide up from the edge into an attack. We haven't really tapped into what it can do yet IMO, and there were many combos/entries in melee possible only with WDing. Who knows how MAD could change a character's combo system. I do want attacks turned on after MAD is used giving some characters more options to recover with B moves.

I agree entirely, MAD in Brawl adds so much depth. It's rediculous to reject it, there's really no reason--- If your reason for not using the code is its length then I'm sorry, but it's one of the best Brawl+ codes out there... seriously.

I think the code space for MAD is worth it, but it's likely that the number can be reduced. options and depth of WDing have a greater impact on the game than other hacks. I think MAD increases the interest in Brawl+ since it's very noticeable. Also, brawl+ needs support from melee vets, and many of them prefer MAD.

And another thing, BAD, along with auto-ledge snapping, takes away from the edge game.

Once again, I agree. Also as you said, MAD effects the ledge game -- as it presents to ways of getting back onto the platform-- it's a good switch up.

I think once we get a better dash dance along with my Run Cancel code, I'm sure you'll be having decent amount of options.

Dash dance aside, MAD has the run cancel code built in if you think about it... Furthering that it adds so much depth to the fake out game. For example, to stop your run and be able attack right away you jump then shield very quickly-- as if to wavedash. It takes some practice, but once you get good at it you can stop on a dime-- halting all of your forward momentum. You won't slide an inch. This is great because it will fake out the enemy into attacking as they weren't expecting the sudden halt and it gives you the opportunity to strike. This is stunning for Marth's tipper as it's a great way to space-- especially if the enemy falls for the bait and tries too attack you. If they do this they've likely moved even closer to your tip.


Kupo: I really don't don't understand why you're so adamant about not using MAD in Brawl. You say it's out of place -- well technically all of the hacks we're using are out of place as they're not intended. If your reason is that you use a nunchuck... well that's rediculous. I don't even use the shoulder buttons and I can wavedash perfectly using a GC remote. This DOES add to comboing potential. As such, it utterly shocks me that you refuse to use MAD.


Also, someone mentioned that WDing in Brawl auto puts your shield up. This only happens if you're doing the WD wrong and not timing it right. It should be a fluid motion. WD in Brawl is better in every way than it was in Melee--- it's far more balanced for every character as most characters WD the same distance.

 

[MBlaze]

Hybrid, suggested 1 MAD with no helplessness, or 1 BAD.

 

[kupo15]

stop bringing up the stupid nunchuck. It was a joke that noone got.

There is a difference. MAD completely changes the AD and creates new stuff and changes the movement and stuff. The other codes just edit it and doesn't really change the game as radically as MAD does. Its hard to explain...

 

[Finns7]

I played 11.75 today (im a 10 user btw) and one code i forgot to put on was Mad. Now I was pissed because I wasnt at home and could not change it. I soon sayed what the hell and played and I just didnt like Bad as much as Mad.

When I used Ganon against Marth there is almost no chance because Marths speed is too much for ganon, but with wding I have much more of a chance and it enables you to play mindgames that you couldnt without it. A Mad Styled airdodge plus the ledge codes coming up are prob going to be perfect to me.

At first I didnt really like Mad and thought it was just something cool but you can do some dastardly things utilizing it. Im just talking really I will put up vid proof later

 

[SGX]

Btw, if you use Z to WD instead of L or R it works a hell of a lot better. Maybe I'm behind on that, but I just figured that out today.

 

[Dan_X]

stop bringing up the stupid nunchuck. It was a joke that noone got.

There is a difference. MAD completely changes the AD and creates new stuff and changes the movement and stuff. The other codes just edit it and doesn't really change the game as radically as MAD does. Its hard to explain...

I realize it changes a DRASTIC amount of things in Brawl. Among those changes is new approaches, directional air dodging -- which is excellent -- also works wonders for grabbing items in mid air, wave landing, triangle jumping, run cancel, fake outs, wave dashing in general, more mobility, attacks out of wavedashing-- creating a slew of creative options for EVERY character. In addition the WD distance is relatively the same for every character, if anything it was stupid how it wasn't like this in Melee, overall, WD is far more balanced across the board in Brawl.

In addition to all of these EXCELLENT changes is the fact that the aerial game is much more intense now, as there's a much higher level of punishment to be rewarded for forcing an enemy into ADing too early, then attacking him. The aerial pressure game actually exists, unlike with BAD. Another huge aspect of MAD is the fact that it inherently adds more options for mind games, as fake outs can be pulled off, run canceling can be executed, etc. It's stunning really.

Seriously, WDing in Brawl is better than BAD in every conceivable way... Seriously, I can't fathom how one would reject all of the things I listed that it provides. It makes for a MUCH DEEPER game, and there's really no arguing that because it's true. Kupo, if I could pay you to use MAD for a month straight I would--- perhaps then you would realize how amazing it is in Brawl.

The addition of shield stun will NOT add as much gameplay depth that MAD has, there's simply no way... There's a whole slew of things as I've already mentioned that MAD provides.

 

[leafgreen386]

I played 11.75 today (im a 10 user btw) and one code i forgot to put on was Mad. Now I was pissed because I wasnt at home and could not change it. I soon sayed what the hell and played and I just didnt like Bad as much as Mad.

When I used Ganon against Marth there is almost no chance because Marths speed is too much for ganon, but with wding I have much more of a chance and it enables you to play mindgames that you couldnt without it. A Mad Styled airdodge plus the ledge codes coming up are prob going to be perfect to me.

At first I didnt really like Mad and thought it was just something cool but you can do some dastardly things utilizing it. Im just talking really I will put up vid proof later

You're missing ganon's WD so much because ganon has arguably the most useful wavedash in the game.

But even without it, ganon with hitstun really only needs two openings per stock to kill you. The term "four hits and you die" often came about when talking about ganon in melee, and the same holds true in brawl+. Jab knocks them down for techchasing. Dtilt, dash attack, dair, and usmash all lead into air combos.Now, ganon's combos aren't usually more than 2-3 hits, but it's really all he needs to deal some heavy damage, and the next time he gets a hit in, you're probably dead. His edgeguarding is actually decent, since he usually only really needs to hit you once as you're coming back to get the kill. He may have to fight harder to get his hits in without the wavedash, but I don't think he really needs it to be viable.

 

[kupo15]

I realize it changes a DRASTIC amount of things in Brawl. Among those changes is new approaches, directional air dodging -- which is excellent -- also works wonders for grabbing items in mid air, wave landing, triangle jumping, run cancel, fake outs, wave dashing in general, more mobility, attacks out of wavedashing-- creating a slew of creative options for EVERY character. In addition the WD distance is relatively the same for every character, if anything it was stupid how it wasn't like this in Melee, overall, WD is far more balanced across the board in Brawl.

In addition to all of these EXCELLENT changes is the fact that the aerial game is much more intense now, as there's a much higher level of punishment to be rewarded for forcing an enemy into ADing too early, then attacking him. The aerial pressure game actually exists, unlike with BAD. Another huge aspect of MAD is the fact that it inherently adds more options for mind games, as fake outs can be pulled off, run canceling can be executed, etc. It's stunning really.

Seriously, WDing in Brawl is better than BAD in every conceivable way... Seriously, I can't fathom how one would reject all of the things I listed that it provides. It makes for a MUCH DEEPER game, and there's really no arguing that because it's true. Kupo, if I could pay you to use MAD for a month straight I would--- perhaps then you would realize how amazing it is in Brawl.

The addition of shield stun will NOT add as much gameplay depth that MAD has, there's simply no way... There's a whole slew of things as I've already mentioned that MAD provides.

You make it sound like MAD is necessary to punish people..

 

[Dan_X]

You make it sound like MAD is necessary to punish people..

It definately makes the aerial punishment game immensely better. It was ******** before when one could AD multiple times escaping every attack, it just didn't make for interesting fights. It was stupid. No, you're right, you can't punish in the air as well without MAD.

 

[Finns7]

You can still do things with Bad but with mad the dastardly deeds options get larger, MAD only adds to the madness and perversion that is...brawl+....A greater perversion is what I seek. A greater vengeance is what I shall attain as I ravish and besmirch all who provoke me to anger.



On a lighter note ganon does have some options without mad because he can kill fast if he connects but I feel that with the added hitstun chars with speed will be to much in the hands of 2 pros 1v1ing, poor old ganny has no answer to this aswell as others, Falcon has trouble getting in marth/reach characters without using Mad mindgames.

 

[kangaroo]

The more hitstun you add, the more important WDing becomes. More hitstun means that as soon as a person gets in a hit, a combo will allow him to do a great deal of damage or even KO the other person. During the period of time when both players are trying to get a hit, baiting, spacing, mindgames, etc are crucial and WDing contributes to all of them. Also, many things in this video probably wouldn't happen with BAD, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twqSNmMYjRc

 

[Dan_X]

You can still do things with Bad but with mad the dastardly deeds options get larger, MAD only adds to the madness and perversion that is...brawl+....A greater perversion is what I seek. A greater vengeance is what I shall attain as I ravish and besmirch all who provoke me to anger.

On a lighter note ganon does have some options without mad because he can kill fast if he connects but I feel that with the added hitstun chars with speed will be to much in the hands of 2 pros 1v1ing, poor old ganny has no answer to this aswell as others, Falcon has trouble getting in marth/reach characters without using Mad mindgames.

I 2nd this. I think WDing adds to everyone's game, especially slow characters. It gives them an opportunity to pull forth some tricks and mindgames, things that otherwise weren't capable. Anything that gives a better approach to slow characters especially is worth having in Brawl+ --- and MAD gives everyone a better approach. In my opinion, Brawl+ is a joke without MAD as Brawl's AD system was a step backwards...

The more hitstun you add, the more important WDing becomes. More hitstun means that as soon as a person gets in a hit, a combo will allow him to do a great deal of damage or even KO the other person. During the period of time when both players are trying to get a hit, baiting, spacing, mindgames, etc are crucial and WDing contributes to all of them. Also, many things in this video probably wouldn't happen with BAD, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twqSNmMYjRc

Great points! This is what I've been trying to get across to people, namely Kupo. That video you link also adds to the underlying point, the point that Brawl+ needs MAD. The combos in that video and the overall gameplay incorporated WDing... it's wait gave it that certain edge. Now that we have the opportunity to add this "edge" in Brawl, I see no reason to ever look back to BAD. We are striving to make the game play more like that video, and MAD is definately a key component, as is ledge fixes, and shield stun.

In the end I'd assume that MAD will make it into Brawl+ as it creates such a massive amount of depth more depth than probably a slew of other codes combined. I'd seriously drop multiple codes to preserve MAD.

 

[Flamingo]

keep Brawl air dodges, I love how you can dodge multiple times to avoid being insta-killed.

 

[kangaroo]

well, I wasn't referring to WDing in that video. I was trying to say that BAD makes it easier to recover and takes away from the edge game.

 

[Dan_X]

keep Brawl air dodges, I love how you can dodge multiple times to avoid being insta-killed.

Not really sure what you're talking about. I've never been "insta-killed." If by "insta-killed" you in fact mean combo may I suggest DI? Or perhaps I should suggest the fact that DI aside MAD can be safer in that you can directionally influence where you move in the air via the air dodge... Perhaps you never played Melee?

well, I wasn't referring to WDing in that video. I was trying to say that BAD makes it easier to recover and takes away from the edge game.

True, but MAD inherently ups the edge game quite a bit. Be it the edge guarder spacing, or the ledge grabber WD back onto the level.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

ok, so...

MAD is too valuable to not have, the only problem is the amount of lines it takes, mabey it is possible to reduce the amount of lines but any idea how many? also, has anyone tried to even shorten the code yet? or does it have too many side effects?

 

[kupo15]

And how exactly does BAD not allow that to happen? If you were to AD during those times then you would be sent to the bottom of the screen thus recovery would be extremely hard. You make it seem like BAD makes it easy to recover when that is not the case. Its the floatiness of brawl and the horrible ledges we have that make recovering so easy...not the air dodge. Seriously, its not that hard to force an Air dodge and its not that hard to capitalize on it. If you blame all your failed attempts at BAD, then you need to learn how to punish it.

If someone is recovering without a jump, BAD will not save them. What, are they going to air dodge your attack so they can fall to their doom? Your trying to assign MAD as the be all end all of all the problems in this game instead of allowing the mechanic responsible for that do its job. (we lack codes for some of them but thats not the point)

Ppl say that MAD is why you can't combo, no its hitstun
Now your saying you can get back from anywhere when the ledges and the floatiness make that happen not to mention that recoveries are generally better in this game anyway. Why would you even air dodge when you are level with the stage or below it anyway? Whats next, your going to say that MAD is suppose to fix the shield pressure in brawl?