Pika_Cam
Smash Ace
You noticed that too? I don't know why you're embarassed. I lost to your Fox with Pikachu. I should be embarassed.
EDIT: Sorry for dragging an old thread up.
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Match-Up Export #1: Pikachu (In-Progress)
- Thread starter Xiivi
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EDIT: Sorry for dragging an old thread up.
Fenrir VII
Smash Master
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Here's an interesting sub-topic to this thread...
Assuming Fox NEVER lands in front of a shield... How does Pika get a grab? Seriously, land behind shields, and use safe tactics like PWGs and spaced crap, and how will he grab you?
I agree Pika has more than just a CG here... but I can't figure out how he'll get the LOL grab against a good Fox player, anymore...
Assuming Fox NEVER lands in front of a shield... How does Pika get a grab? Seriously, land behind shields, and use safe tactics like PWGs and spaced crap, and how will he grab you?
I agree Pika has more than just a CG here... but I can't figure out how he'll get the LOL grab against a good Fox player, anymore...
Pika_Cam
Smash Ace
Pikachu has a few grab setups.
FF fair > grab
utilt > grab
Oh, and my favorite:
grab > grab ...
> grab > grab > grab > grab > grab
FF fair > grab
utilt > grab
Oh, and my favorite:
grab > grab ...
> grab > grab > grab > grab > grab
Ussi
Smash Legend
lets see.... Pikachu isn't known for shield grabs... He's just good at grabbing though.
utilt > utilt > grab (lulz)
You just be patient till you can find a opening to dash grab. Pika has good speed to close a gap decently.
That and Powershielding.
utilt > utilt > grab (lulz)
You just be patient till you can find a opening to dash grab. Pika has good speed to close a gap decently.
That and Powershielding.
Fenrir VII
Smash Master
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can't say about utilt grab, but FF fair > grab isn't guaranteed... and Fox should be avoiding that.
Fox shouldn't ever land in front of shield.. I agree that Pika isn't known for it... but Fox is faster than Pika, and generally has slightly quicker moves (at least, imo... I play both... this comment is debateable, though... I realize that)
Sure, Pika can cover ground... but other than possible utilt, he doesn't have any guaranteed grab setups... and since his name isn't dedede or something... I don't know that Foxes should be THAT scared of his grab game...
Of COURSE it should come into play in matchup discussion... and even really make it bad for Fox... but I think Fox should be avoiding it.
Pika_Cam
Smash Ace
Yes, Fox should be THAT scared of his grab game. One grab means 100+ damage.
And even if you can DI away from FF fair > grab, it doesn't mean it doesn't work more than half of the time. It's like teching the stage when someone stage spikes you. You know you can do it, but you don't a majority of the time.
And even if you can DI away from FF fair > grab, it doesn't mean it doesn't work more than half of the time. It's like teching the stage when someone stage spikes you. You know you can do it, but you don't a majority of the time.
Fenrir VII
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I'm saying, Foxes should not, at least imo, call this a horrible match only based on the grab... Again, if it were DDD or something, then Fox has a bigger problem, but Pika has a decent bit of trouble grabbing...
We all know Pika CGs Fox to around 90... that's very well known around here... but I'm convinced that Fox shouldn't be getting grabbed by pika...
And to be quite honest... yes, that does mean it won't work more than half the time. how hard is Fair to see coming, anyway? And also, if I'm not mistaken, Fox has opportunity to dodge / jump before the grab connects anyway, due to Pika's landing lag...
I'm not sure about utilt, though. is that a guaranteed grab setup?
718_ROOKI3
Smash Lord
If anyone thinks they can beat a real pikachu main with fox, your stupid. idc how close you even get to winning, if you still lost you lost period and its because pikachu counters fox. even without the CG pikachu has always been a counter to fox in all 3 smash games. EX: Zeton vs. Anther - Everyone was hyped he did good, he got 2-0'd. He didnt win, why? because pikachu counters fox. Just pick up secondaries like real smart players do and find another way to beat pikachu.
Zephil
Smash Ace
R00K really likes to use big letters... why are we still discussing this a LOL matchup would always be a LOL matchup
Fenrir VII
Smash Master
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Melee? get wrecked...
First of all... saying that x char can beat y char is not "stupid"... it's logic...
secondly... this kind of defeatest idea will never progress any kind of metagame... nor will typing in large font...
Pika_Cam
Smash Ace
I think we agree Fenrir, but I think our communication with each other is bad. Fox should be scared of getting grabbed and be cautious, but the matchup is by no means unwinnable (as I so skillfully demonstrated against Moogle XD). It is a very tough matchup for Fox players (not in melee ROOKI3). I can respect a Fox who will try it in tournament though, someone who will try to go Fox all the way and not change when the going gets tough. Hey guys, if that's your attitude, let's all switch to Metaknight.
crifer
Smash Lord
I think pikas grab range is pretty good, or ?
One time I couldn´t grab (standing grab) a pikachu and the pikachu could grab me (standing grab)..
and DK has an amazing standing grab...
One time I couldn´t grab (standing grab) a pikachu and the pikachu could grab me (standing grab)..
and DK has an amazing standing grab...
Fenrir VII
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I agree with Zhamy on the 7-3...
I'm confused about Sheik, though... Foxes always do well in that match... and the ftilt lock is escapable... so idk that it's worse than pika...
idk, perhaps he grabbed your arm when you grabbed? I play Pika, too, and his grab range is pretty frustrating... DK does have a good grab range, but Pika in no way has anything close to it.
I'm still wondering about the utilt > grab for Pika... Not trying to argue with it... I'm just curious if it is a legit setup...
and also, Jenkins is right... Fox is a good character for combination with secondaries... This is completely true...
Pika is a pretty hard counter. I won't argue that... however, Fox can win this match. That's all we're trying to say here... to get away from the Fox vs Pika = lol mindset.
If we do not discuss possibilities in the matchup, however... Fox's metagame is hurt... so that really shouldn't be the option of choice here... we should see how bad it is, and what Fox CAN do...
Nope, Ftilt lock is inescapable after 25% against Sheik. (I was asking Ankoku about this last night.) But that's for another matchup.
Fenrir's right in that Fox can win, but Fox has to play like the campiest ***** that ever lived.
As far as crifer's comment goes, IIRC, you can grab a character's grab hitbox, so that might be why.
crifer
Smash Lord
yeah could be that he grabbed the huge body of the ape lol.
Yesterday I played against someone, who is as good as me,
and I won with Fox against his pika... and got 2 stocked by the same pika with DK, rofl.
ok after that I 2 stocked him ... haha
Fenrir VII
Smash Master
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Agreed...that's another matchup... but you are right, as long as the ftilt is properly decayed... there is a small window of error that Fox can escape by DIing towards her... but your statement is correct...
Pika_Cam
Smash Ace
The utilt > grab works at low percents. I don't know how escapable it is, considering I rarely use it. I do know that it is a grab setup though.
Zeton
Smash Lord
I'm sorry if this may sound rude toward some people but...
If you judge the match over a cg and think 1 hint of gayness will cripple fox, you deserve to get grabbed.
I did not bust my butt with all the dumb matchups just to go to tournaments and lose to a scrub pikachu. Yes, the matchup is ridiculous but you can turn those weaknesses into your strengths, just as long as you u aware of all your options.
I will post later many methods you can use against a pikachu with fox. I'm not good at describing in detail so this will take some time.
You all can choose whether or not to accept my metagame with pika or not.
If you judge the match over a cg and think 1 hint of gayness will cripple fox, you deserve to get grabbed.
I did not bust my butt with all the dumb matchups just to go to tournaments and lose to a scrub pikachu. Yes, the matchup is ridiculous but you can turn those weaknesses into your strengths, just as long as you u aware of all your options.
I will post later many methods you can use against a pikachu with fox. I'm not good at describing in detail so this will take some time.
You all can choose whether or not to accept my metagame with pika or not.
Fenrir VII
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^ This man speaks truth... and hardly ever speaks...
I've played and beaten a few Pikas, as well... just ... don't get grabbed.
I mean, honestly, if "don't get grabbed" is not a viable argument, why are Ice Climbers not #1 in the game (hyperbole, I realize)? I realize Fox has fewer tools to avoid a grab than many characters, but he is also quite quick and adaptable.. so I don't think he should really be getting grabbed in any matchup, really...
Also to cam, thanks for the info about the utilt thing. I'll probably check it out later. : )
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
I suck at not getting grabbed so, I think I will CP this one to be safe.
Dark 3nergy
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holy **** i jizzed myself so hard over that fox vs pikachu vid. that fox is a loving hero
I agree with what Zeton said. Def. dont get grabbed...even if it means you play keep away. But if your having trouble with getting grabbed, play Wario for abit. If not take a look at how really good Wario's play since most really good Wario's will never get grabbed.
I agree with what Zeton said. Def. dont get grabbed...even if it means you play keep away. But if your having trouble with getting grabbed, play Wario for abit. If not take a look at how really good Wario's play since most really good Wario's will never get grabbed.
thats kinda not the whole idea behind this thread lol
okk lets just say pika spams thunder bolt (neutral b). lets say pika got thunder bolts coming from the sky and the ground.. how do u punish that with out getting chain grabbed , thuder shock or d-smash.
u can't reflector because this gives pika time to set up for the attack options.
what theories and moves could get u out of this situation.
and does any one know if there is a move that has a higher priority than pika down smash. (were are the hit boxes for pika move does any one know?
u can't reflector because this gives pika time to set up for the attack options.
what theories and moves could get u out of this situation.
and does any one know if there is a move that has a higher priority than pika down smash. (were are the hit boxes for pika move does any one know?
Uzima (Uzi)
Smash Lord
you can bring the reflector up long enough to bounch them back then jump out when you reflect the attacks, doesnt take much time at all.
This is matchup discussion, not Q&A.
Zeton
Smash Lord
I'll answer his question anyway... SH Fair (Learn to auto cancel that and you're set because ur fair clashes or beats his neutral B. let alone, u can keep ur distance and shoot him once every time he does it then play jumprope with that attack. (your fox, he's fast enough.)
KheldarVII
Smash Ace
If you can time it with all the possible chaos coming your way you can cancel shine stun after refecting a bolt with a jump. Although it's not gonna go anywhere useful. You can also kick it with N-air or F-air.
Zephil
Smash Ace
this match is winnable, even if its LOL but you need a good stage to at least have a chance. Even if you try your hardest is impossible to complete a whole match in FD against pika without getting grab so the best you can do here is counter to a stage with a lot of platforms... lylat as the videos shows is in my opinion the best counter against pika as you can have complete control of the platforms and easily evade thunders with reflector. it would be very difficult for pika to get you out from the platforms so I really recommend this stage... I say that in this stage Fox has a 25-75 or a bit more... but this match is completely different to all other matchups, this is not hit and run, this is hit and JUMP, the platforms are your friends, use them.
Pika_Cam
Smash Ace
One other thing you should also note about Lylat (which got me killed at the end of the video) is that Pikachu and Fox's forward Bs can be really screwed up by the tilting stage. I would be careful counterpicking this stage because of that. Pikachu can still QAC onto the stage, but Fox will either have lag from up B getting back on, a predictable trajectory with forward B getting back on, or have to take his chances with the unpredictable ledge and hope not to get gimped by it. I counter pick this stage against Falco players sometimes because of the easily punishable recovery options.
@D.E. - That's gross.
@D.E. - That's gross.
718_ROOKI3
Smash Lord
You cant possibly create a metagame for fox vs pika that will result in fox winning
happy now? like seriously it's common sense and to go through this whole discussion again is pointless. There is a reason why great players have secondaries, its because they are smart and accept the game for what it is. Also there are 2 types of character counters, Hard counters and Soft counters.
Hard Counter: Pika vs. Fox. Pika is in favor to win more then 70% of the time
Soft Counter: Wolf vs. Olimar. The match up played correctly by Oimar can result in Olimar winning just as much as Wolf.
I have beaten pikachus in tournament with fox, but those pikas are horrible. You guys can just go into a tourny match against a real pika main and think you know what your doing and lose, i'll just use my secondaries because thats the smart thing to do and it gives me more of a chance to win.
The logic behind all you have to do is not get grabbed is dumb. You guys think its hard for pika to grab fox? pfff you guys obviously havet fought real pikachus.
What would you rather settle for?
1. Knowing your going into a matchup that your bound to lose due to character.
(I can be a whole class higher than another player, but all it takes is 3 grabs and i lose)
2. Using a character and if you lose you know its only due to skill which can be fixed with practice.
Think about it... Even if you go to last game last stock last hit, you don't know if you can pull that off again, you dont know that you wont get grabbed or not, you dont know any of that, like seriously think. i understand you guys are trying to find a solution, but this solution your trying to find you just wont find. You guys can disagree with me now, but i wont ever be wrong about this, its just common sense.
I know what to do against pika, i have a full metagame on it too that i can write up but the thought of it is just so stupid. I supported fox vs pika for an extremely long time, you can Rykoshet about that, but common sense to me is just play and secondary. If you guys wanna hear what i got to say and post my metagame just ask me please. Because as of now its obvious not one person agrees with me, so im assuming you guys could careless what i got to say, so again if you want to hear my metagame just ask me.
KheldarVII
Smash Ace
The fact that you didn't write any of it in big font makes me happy.
Uzima (Uzi)
Smash Lord
reminds me of fighting a good ice climbers. Yet fighting them isnt beyond pointless.
Zolga Owns
Smash Lord
I'm not sure if this is known or not but the Downthrow CG Pikachu has on Fox can be broken with the Jab.
Some Fox player I played with my (hella rusty) Pikachu named Iblis just learned that today.
Some Fox player I played with my (hella rusty) Pikachu named Iblis just learned that today.
Conviction
Human Nature
My thread ^
i want i want to hear your metagame for pikia.
i agree with what rookie says. my 2nd is lucario. for my other tough match up.
i have beat the rooster against my bro. he pretty good at the basics n a little farther into the advace moves. but he only know limited about the other charters tricks n combos. but he will still give any brawler a run for his money.
i understand wat rookie says is true but i think that with hard work n precision. fox can come out in the clutch to pull of the win. maybe even 2 stock any charter except meta knight at times.
if u find differnt ways to play with fox i bet the match up for almost any mathc would be at least 40:60 the lowest.
i notice that if u know what move to look out for, n find at least 2 moves that the opponent does that can be punish u can 2 stock but ur damage will be around +130% (also fox has the shine combo off the side of the stage which is 98% kill)
i have beat the rooster against my bro. he pretty good at the basics n a little farther into the advace moves. but he only know limited about the other charters tricks n combos. but he will still give any brawler a run for his money.
i understand wat rookie says is true but i think that with hard work n precision. fox can come out in the clutch to pull of the win. maybe even 2 stock any charter except meta knight at times.
if u find differnt ways to play with fox i bet the match up for almost any mathc would be at least 40:60 the lowest.
i notice that if u know what move to look out for, n find at least 2 moves that the opponent does that can be punish u can 2 stock but ur damage will be around +130% (also fox has the shine combo off the side of the stage which is 98% kill)
Conviction
Human Nature
Well I find walking instead of running most of the time in this match-up is better to use, taunt pika's grab range with F-tilt and U-tilt, get them to react different then punish as if playing any other character.
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