Match-Up Export #1: Pikachu (In-Progress)

[Fenrir VII]

You cant possibly create a metagame for fox vs pika that will result in fox winning
happy now? like seriously it's common sense and to go through this whole discussion again is pointless. There is a reason why great players have secondaries, its because they are smart and accept the game for what it is. Also there are 2 types of character counters, Hard counters and Soft counters.

Hard Counter: Pika vs. Fox. Pika is in favor to win more then 70% of the time
Soft Counter: Wolf vs. Olimar. The match up played correctly by Oimar can result in Olimar winning just as much as Wolf.

I have beaten pikachus in tournament with fox, but those pikas are horrible. You guys can just go into a tourny match against a real pika main and think you know what your doing and lose, i'll just use my secondaries because thats the smart thing to do and it gives me more of a chance to win.

The logic behind all you have to do is not get grabbed is dumb. You guys think its hard for pika to grab fox? pfff you guys obviously havet fought real pikachus.

Or you're too predictable and get grabbed a lot? It's not that hard for Fox to avoid grabs from any character...It's tricky to keep the whole match like that, but avoiding a grab isn't all that bad...

What would you rather settle for?
1. Knowing your going into a matchup that your bound to lose due to character.
(I can be a whole class higher than another player, but all it takes is 3 grabs and i lose)
2. Using a character and if you lose you know its only due to skill which can be fixed with practice.

Think about it... Even if you go to last game last stock last hit, you don't know if you can pull that off again, you dont know that you wont get grabbed or not, you dont know any of that, like seriously think. i understand you guys are trying to find a solution, but this solution your trying to find you just wont find. You guys can disagree with me now, but i wont ever be wrong about this, its just common sense.

Course... you're never wrong, as you said...

I know what to do against pika, i have a full metagame on it too that i can write up but the thought of it is just so stupid. I supported fox vs pika for an extremely long time, you can Rykoshet about that, but common sense to me is just play and secondary. If you guys wanna hear what i got to say and post my metagame just ask me please. Because as of now its obvious not one person agrees with me, so im assuming you guys could careless what i got to say, so again if you want to hear my metagame just ask me.

The main problem I have here is that under normal tournament play, anybody can pick Pikachu as a secondary for a counterpick, and you will lose, since, assuming you won the round before, they change character AFTER you...

This means that you have to win the random, and win a CP stage... because, according to you, you won't beat a Pika...

At that point, what point is there in even playing Fox as a main? might as well have him as a glorified secondary...

I agree that Fox should have CPs and good secondaries, but that isn't the only option here... or even the best. Should a Fox go all Fox against a notable Pika main? maybe not... but should a Fox player be able to beat a PIka player? yes... and it's not that impossible...

 

[Toronto Joe]

i agree with both sides here, even though not getting is doable, i just think theres no real point in using fox in this matchup considering the big disadvantage he has from just one grab, be honest here guys, fox has one of the easiest approaches to shield grab, with good spacing you can get around this but still 1 mistake and your down a stock(look at Moogles video, he played perfectly, up a full 3 stocks i believe and the pikachu was able to get to 100+% each last stock this would never happen if he was using someone other then Fox), the same reason why i dont use Fox vs ICs is the same reason i dont use him vs Pika, there are character that do MUCH better at avoiding the grabs then Fox...i have unbelievable respect for those like Zeton who can take on Anther with Fox, but its just not worth it for me...brawl is lame and frustrating enough for me, i guess i dont have the patience that must be had to win this matchup

i still feel as though this matchup needs to be discussed because eventually some prick is going to CP Pika against our Fox and were going to have to know what to do, for now ill listen.

edit: who else is pissed about the fact that we missed escaping the grab combo by a few frames xD

 

[Zeton]

I agree with Fenir.
The whole point on this thread is to help u get that second win without going to the 3rd match, or to help you get past a scrub pikachu if someone dares to cp you. Nothing is more pleasurable than beating a matchup where the odds are greatly against you, it says something about you, and the character that you play, and possibly unlocks doors to those people or characters.

I'm getting pretty tired of being the only fox it seems who touch these impossible match ups. I may have been 2-0ed by anther, but those matches were pretty close. The only reason why I lost the second match really was No Fair kicked my a**, and everyone who was there to witness those matches would agree with me. I wish you other fox mains wouldn't be after the "fox spot light" all the time and share you meta game with the rest of the other people, it's the only way fox is ever going to get better. Period.


Wtf happened to "Never Give up, trust your instincts...??"
You guys want to just play a 3 matches in every torunament set or pick secondaries that might get crippled on the 3rd match? Fine, but I'm going to at least try to better my odds in tournaments so people don't even DARE to pick pikachu on me if they don't know that character (or know me well.)

Now, who's up to discuss some metagame for this matchup...?

 

[Toronto Joe]

i guess ill have to ask carter for friendlies friday and see how i do and get back to you guys

 

[Fenrir VII]

I agree with Fenir.
The whole point on this thread is to help u get that second win without going to the 3rd match, or to help you get past a scrub pikachu if someone dares to cp you. Nothing is more pleasurable than beating a matchup where the odds are greatly against you, it says something about you, and the character that you play, and possibly unlocks doors to those people or characters.

I'm getting pretty tired of being the only fox it seems who touch these impossible match ups. I may have been 2-0ed by anther, but those matches were pretty close. The only reason why I lost the second match really was No Fair kicked my a**, and everyone who was there to witness those matches would agree with me. I wish you other fox mains wouldn't be after the "fox spot light" all the time and share you meta game with the rest of the other people, it's the only way fox is ever going to get better. Period.


Wtf happened to "Never Give up, trust your instincts...??"
You guys want to just play a 3 matches in every torunament set or pick secondaries that might get crippled on the 3rd match? Fine, but I'm going to at least try to better my odds in tournaments so people don't even DARE to pick pikachu on me if they don't know that character (or know me well.)

Now, who's up to discuss some metagame for this matchup...?

Yes.

My main point, all along, is not that Fox beats Pika... or that Fox should always stay Fox against Pika...
It is that there will be times (considering how people are) that any better Fox will HAVE to play this match, due to a lame CP. Somebody will think they can't beat you straight up, and CP Pika to get a free win, and if you just discount that, and say "well, use a secondary"... you can't here. That is, of course, unless you intend to drop Fox as a main, and only use him for certain matchups... with a "secondary" as your main character for every match.

So basically, in this case, you are saying that you HAVE to win the neutral stage... which puts a lot more pressure in any tournament setting.


And I agree that Fox is somewhat more prone to shield grabbing... but my opinion, personally, is that if I get shield grabbed, I deserve to lose that stock.. Fox has decent enough spacing tools to not let that happen... and I believe that is the number 1 weakness of Fox players...



So basically... if you do not wish to talk about possible winning strats, or things that Fox CAN do in the match... don't bother posting in here, because it's certainly not helping anything. kthxbai

 

[Conviction]

edit: who else is pissed about the fact that we missed escaping the grab combo by a few frames xD

I AM SO PISSED!!!!!!! I thought we had it.

 

[Anther]

If someone CP's Pika then CP metaknight!..
Random MK > Random Pika player

 

[Ussi]

If someone CP's Pika then CP metaknight!..
Random MK > Random Pika player

For those who want to keep dignity, use Marth instead of MK.

 

[Conviction]

Pika's please be reasonable and don't buffer your Chaingrabs >.> lol

 

[AvaricePanda]

lol @ using MK means you don't have any dignity.

Also, both sides of this are being really vague here. Fenrir and others keep saying Fox has the spacing tools to not get grabbed, and Rookie's saying that if both people are playing as they should, Pika will win all the time and no matter how well you play, you'll eventually get grabbed.

I'll agree that you should discuss the MU so you know what to do if some random player in your pools/bracket gets angry and CPd Pika, but you actually need to discuss the MU and not say that you're going to discuss the MU if you're planning on doing this.

So some questions for this:

Pika's grab setups?
Ways to most safely approach?
Ways to deal damage without approaching?
What Pika can do if you camp?
Killing?
How do you play after you've been CGd to 100%?

To be honest, this matchup doesn't look at all fun for you even without the chaingrab, and I personally wouldn't go up against a Pika you know is a Pika with Fox, because you're just screwing over your chances. However, some may disagree; at the very least you need to know the matchup to beat that random guy who CPs Pika in frustration.

 

[Exceladon City]

Pikachu without the chaingrab is fairly manageable. I have kinda averted getting grabbed by camping platforms until about 40% or so.

 

[Fenrir VII]

lol @ using MK means you don't have any dignity.

Also, both sides of this are being really vague here. Fenrir and others keep saying Fox has the spacing tools to not get grabbed, and Rookie's saying that if both people are playing as they should, Pika will win all the time and no matter how well you play, you'll eventually get grabbed.

I'll agree that you should discuss the MU so you know what to do if some random player in your pools/bracket gets angry and CPd Pika, but you actually need to discuss the MU and not say that you're going to discuss the MU if you're planning on doing this.

So some questions for this:

Pika's grab setups?
Ways to most safely approach?
Ways to deal damage without approaching?
What Pika can do if you camp?
Killing?
How do you play after you've been CGd to 100%?

To be honest, this matchup doesn't look at all fun for you even without the chaingrab, and I personally wouldn't go up against a Pika you know is a Pika with Fox, because you're just screwing over your chances. However, some may disagree; at the very least you need to know the matchup to beat that random guy who CPs Pika in frustration.

I agree with you... and actually quite a lot of matchup discussion has already gone on (I owuld definitely understand if you didn't read through the whole thread here). The last several posts of mine have been directed towards Rookie who, imo, derailed a useful thread.

As I've said a couple times already... Fox players HAVE to know this matchup, if just to combat players who CP Pika in the confines of a tournament match, in which case, you wouldn't be able to switch characters. Do I think it's in Fox's favor? certainly not... do I think it's winnable? yes.

But, AP and Zeton are both correct. We should start focusing on how a good Fox should approach this match. To use AP's questions as kind of a template:

Pika's grab setups?

Pikachu mains, thus far, have said that FF Fair and utilt are both legit grab setups. I cannot say on utilt, but FF fair is escapable with DI away and a jump, easily enough, since Pika's fair does not autocancel, and thus, he suffers a bit of lag. Utilt needs testing to see if it is escapable.

Ways to most safely approach?

Bair, ftilt, Nair even, utilt, and a few other attacks have hitboxes that extend past Pika's grab range, so they are safe on shield... Fair zoning is not a bad tool, really, but it doesn't seem like you can hit him all that often, so probably not the best option... PWGs are really nice, since they are unpunishable after the grab... among other things

Ways to deal damage without approaching?

Laser laser laser... Pika quick, but you can still camp him

What Pika can do if you camp?

Sometimes camp back... which is really nice to see, since Fox does pretty well against Pika's camp game, and puts damage on.. Otherwise, he approaches with spaced aerials, grab, or QAC aerials... He actually has decent approach options, simply because they are harder to predict and punish, but if you get the timings down, it's not impossible

Killing?

Fox is the better killer... Pika has his smashes (Dsmash should never fully hit with DI), thunder, and Nair, mainly, as killers. His smashes are strong, but Nair takes some time to kill, and thunder is a bit easy to predict and punish. I feel that this is the one area that helps Fox in the match... Pika's killing attacks mostly lack range, with his large range ones being slower and easier to avoid...

How do you play after you've been CGd to 100%?

Take a deep breath and keep playing. This is where Fox can do quite a lot to Pika, while the rat is trying to land a legit kill.. just keep playing evasively... watch for a QAC Nair, and the rest are fairly easy to avoid... keep applying damage and stick to your game.

 

[718_ROOKI3]

This is why the idea of "dont get grabbed" is harder than it sounds:
f*ck fox's speed you think it matters... pikachu isn't slow.

1. Shielding and getting grabbed helps pikachu (grabbing a shield extends you grab range)
2. Jab>Grab
3. Soft Nair>Grab
4. Uair>Grab
5. Thunderjolt>Grab
6. QAC>Grab
7. Shield>Grab
8. Spot dodge>Grab
9. Dash attack>Grab

I'm prolly missing a few but these are pikachus options if he wants to grab you. Now look at this list and tell me that's not f*cked up.

I'll start putting my input to this match-up, i just hope you guys understand and see what i see, and it is that the game has match-ups and stages certain characters just dont belong anywhere near and its for that reason i urge all fox mains to pick up secondaries.

 

[718_ROOKI3]

Pika's grab setups?

1. Shielding and getting grabbed helps pikachu (grabbing a shield extends you grab range)
2. Jab>Grab
3. Soft Nair>Grab
4. Uair>Grab
5. Thunderjolt>Grab
6. QAC>Grab
7. Shield>Grab
8. Spot dodge>Grab
9. Dash attack>Grab

Ways to most safely approach?

Approach from the air and be sure to land on platforms, that way you have more time to see what your opponents movements are and start to create real approachs.

Ways to deal damage without approaching?

If the opponent tends to abuse jumping, SHDL's. If not stand across stage and fire Standing Lasers, pikachu isn't a fast runner

What Pika can do if you camp?

Approach with QAC'ing, use thunderjolts

Killing?

Don't rely on upsmash because your putting yourself in a grab scenario, instead try b-airs, and u-airs.

How do you play after you've been CGd to 100%?

Remeber that pikachu has limited kill shots and even then with proper DI your safe till about 130% 140%. Just rack up the damage you can on your opponent and pray your up a stock when you get grabbed for the 1st time

 

[Fenrir VII]

1. Shielding and getting grabbed helps pikachu (grabbing a shield extends you grab range)
2. Jab>Grab
3. Soft Nair>Grab
4. Uair>Grab
5. Thunderjolt>Grab
6. QAC>Grab
7. Shield>Grab
8. Spot dodge>Grab
9. Dash attack>Grab

I'm prolly missing a few but these are pikachus options if he wants to grab you. Now look at this list and tell me that's not f*cked up.

Like... all of those are escapable, though... pretty easily too...

Jab > Grab

very, very escapable... jump or something. it's not fast enough to catch.. plus, since Pika's jab sends you away, this puts you even more out of his range, helping you avoid it

Soft Nair > Grab

Nair doesn't autocancel, and leaves Pika with some pretty bad lag... it also stops the hitbox pretty early (if Pika uses it to autocancel, he won't land in time to grab... if not, he's too laggy to grab), so this isn't a good setup...

Uair>Grab

Same as Nair, with a really early hitbox... and again, it doesn't autocancel... so jump out, and problem solved....

Thunderjolt>Grab

This is possible, but do I really need to list how to avoid this?

QAC>Grab

Um... QAC leaves Pika in the air after it... how does Pika grab there?

Shield>Grab
Spot dodge>Grab

Goes back to my "don't land in front of shield" thing...

Dash attack>Grab

Dash attack has a lot of ending lag... no legit setup... easy to avoid...

 

[Zeton]

You can dash dance first to mind game the opening, and with the ending frames being close at end since you dash danced, it can lead to many options for fox.

what if he tries to grab you while you are dancing? well that's what jump canceling shine is for.

In this matchup it is VERY IMPORTANT you have mastered short hop fair and all the other fair quirks as well as all the other air attack auto canceling with fox. You want to stay in the air as much as possible, to bait that Pikachu to hit you while you are in the air, giving u % to where you can't get cged.


btw i just realized those are pikachu's setups not fox...I fail...oh well.

Oh...keep in mind some of pikachu's air attacks are hard to auto cancel for em, especially bair and dair. That's the best time to attack in my opinion. just don't get mind game into a trap and know the limits of where pika can auto cancel and land.

 

[Area_6]

Is there a video of anther vs'es zeton's fox?

I would like to see/study that game if there is a video.

 

[Scissors Sir]

Uair to grab isn't done the way you're thinking

It's a sh started on the way up with no lag onthe landing bcuz the attack is finished already.

Soft nair is mainly from a shffl'd nair... Not with a falling nair.

And the fact of the matter is even if I let you hit me with 100% in lasers, you still have to land a killing blow. Even with pika's grab range he can get at least one grab on any character during a stock.

No one is saying just roll over and die but it's a bad matchup whether you feel it's only cuz of the grab or not. And yeah I think it would be alot more even without the cg. Look at sonic.

 

[Zeton]

*Rolls eyes*

We all know its a bad matchup we don't need a reminder every 5-10 posts. At the same time you have trouble landing your killing blows as well except Nair.


btw you contradict yourself in your post.

"No one is saying just roll over and die but it's a bad matchup whether you feel it's only cuz of the grab or not. And yeah I think it would be alot more even without the cg."

 

[Fenrir VII]

Uair to grab isn't done the way you're thinking

It's a sh started on the way up with no lag onthe landing bcuz the attack is finished already.

Soft nair is mainly from a shffl'd nair... Not with a falling nair.

And the fact of the matter is even if I let you hit me with 100% in lasers, you still have to land a killing blow. Even with pika's grab range he can get at least one grab on any character during a stock.

No one is saying just roll over and die but it's a bad matchup whether you feel it's only cuz of the grab or not. And yeah I think it would be alot more even without the cg. Look at sonic.

Fox has no trouble landing killing blows...

Nair and Uair, I accounted for in my post... neither of them are legit setups, since both have time at the end where Fox can get away, since Pika must finish the move and land, since they don't autocancel.

 

[718_ROOKI3]

*Rolls eyes*

We all know its a bad matchup we don't need a reminder every 5-10 posts. At the same time you have trouble landing your killing blows as well except Nair.


btw you contradict yourself in your post.

"No one is saying just roll over and die but it's a bad matchup whether you feel it's only cuz of the grab or not. And yeah I think it would be alot more even without the cg."

Fox has no trouble landing killing blows...

Nair and Uair, I accounted for in my post... neither of them are legit setups, since both have time at the end where Fox can get away, since Pika must finish the move and land, since they don't autocancel.

you guys do realize that he mains pikachu and is the best one in the tri state area (NY,CT,NJ).

 

[Zeton]

you guys do realize that he mains pikachu and is the best one in the tri state area (NY,CT,NJ).

Yes, and I also realize he doesn't fight a lot of foxes that actually knows some meta game toward his character.

I mean...WHO DARES USE FOX AGAINST A PIKACHU...Not trying to be ignorant, but, seriously, I doubt anyone has ever went fox on his pika, especially if they KNOW he's the best of his Tri State.

 

[Fenrir VII]

you guys do realize that he mains pikachu and is the best one in the tri state area (NY,CT,NJ).

Player skill doesn't suddenly make things that don't work start being guaranteed.

All of the things Rook listed are guaranteed (among many others) if Fox doesn't react, but if he does... not problem.

 

[Scissors Sir]

actually it's the other way around. It sounds like you haven't played too many pikas that are good at that matchup.

Now before you throw anther's name out, just understand something. I know overall Anther is better than me. That doesn't mean he's better at every single matchup. I happen to feel I'm better at fighting lucario than he is. If there are certain things you were doing that worked on him doesn't necessarily mean it will work on every pika you play

and the uair doesn't have to auto cancel. If you do it the way I mentioned, you can land right after it's done with no lag and no real gap between attacks. I've even seen anther taunt with it while his opponent was nowhere near him.

And the jab can lead to grab if it makes them trip. U can grab before the sound for the the tip even finishes. And u don't have to time the stop in between fast jabs because you can do slow ones. And the jabs have good range. It's just another option. Options never hurt
I'm done here. I'll leave you fox mains in your dream land with kirby... (except rookie he's cool)

 

[Fenrir VII]

and the uair doesn't have to auto cancel. If you do it the way I mentioned, you can land right after it's done with no lag and no real gap between attacks. I've even seen anther taunt with it while his opponent was nowhere near him.

And the jab can lead to grab if it makes them trip. U can grab before the sound for the the tip even finishes. And u don't have to time the stop in between fast jabs because you can do slow ones. And the jabs have good range. It's just another option. Options never hurt
I'm done here. I'll leave you fox mains in your dream land with kirby... (except rookie he's cool)

First of all, I'm not disrespecting you... I know you're good... your skill vs anther doesn't really matter... I'm just saying this:

uair > grab isn't guaranteed... Fox has time to escape that... that's all I'm really saying.

The jab causing a trip is correct... I admit, I hadn't really considered that, but yes, that is valid. If it does not trip, Fox can get out, but you're right there...

and again... nobody's dreaming here... Fox has to learn this match, so we have to discuss it.

 

[Zeton]

I'm done here. I'll leave you fox mains in your dream land with kirby... (except rookie he's cool)

No matter how bad or futile this match up is, We are still going to discuss, test, and figure things out about. This is not a dream saying fox can **** pikachu, we have to be reasonable on both sides. I didn't disresepct the fact of your winnings and title, but just right there you insulted other foxes trying to figure this match up out.


I'd like to see you play a fox that spends enough time being cged by a pikachu, not afraid of the appoach options toward that pokemon, and beat it.

And throw in a twist, don't CG him. Like to see how that goes.

Or better yet, actually play fox against your own main. Pikachu.

If that fox loses, then it'll just go marth or meta or any of your counters on you. How's that...? (I guess our next topic is how to play our secondaries guys considering it's the cool and smart thing to do.) I'll stop posting if this happens.

Also, about that jab to grab, yes, your jab can trip but thats a random factor and fox can di and shield your jab. Yes, I'm shielding. Free grab? Probably not. I got out of shield options...Usmash out of shield...Shine out of shield....Fire Fox?? Or better yet at low %s I'll get in my grab range and buffer grab armor YOU out of my shield. It's like you said, options never hurt.

 

[Scissors Sir]

I hear what you're saying fenrir (yeah I know I said I'm done here)

Even though I said all foxes, I was really mainly talking about zeton. I shouldn't have grouped evryone together. For that I apologize.

Back to zeton

You're right. I only beat fox players cuz of the cg. Not because I adjust my style to players expecting a grab.

 

[Fenrir VII]

This thread just keeps getting derailed...

Let's get back on topic... key points of Fox's metagame against Pika.


We'll see how the handicap rule turns out... that would be seriously interesting in this match.


Fox can outcamp Pika, since lasers and maneuverability give Fox one of the best anti-camping games in the whole game.

Fox has moves that oustpace shield from front and back... and a really good game against the back of the shield...

I actually feel that Fox wins an aerial game here with Fair and Bair beating just about all of Pika's options... so camping platforms is not a bad idea at all...

Fair beats thunderjolt... Shine beats combos into thunder

and Fox kills a bit faster, so even that % after a cg is still useful...

 

[AvaricePanda]

What specific moves outspace Pika's shield?

Also, I don't feel that Fox outcamps Pika. I don't feel that Pika outcamps Fox, either. You're both probably going to be getting in the occasional thunder jolt/laser, but really your shine and general movement beats his thunderjolts, and the fact that he can crouch beats your lasers. He can crouch under your lasers. If he crawls, he gets hit by standing lasers, but he can just sit there and crouch and you basically have to approach. Then what?

All aerial approaches as far as I can tell, are nullified. Nair and Dair can get shield grabbed. Uair...lol. Crouch goes under Fair and Bair. Dash attack gets you shieldgrabbed, as would uptilt or jab. Dtilt and Ftilt might have enough space to not get shieldgrabbed, but I'm not sure if Pika's ftilt and dtilt outspace it.

So yeah...

 

[Zephil]

... ^ this post is like a stab for all fox mains...

 

[718_ROOKI3]

Yes, and I also realize he doesn't fight a lot of foxes that actually knows some meta game toward his character.

I mean...WHO DARES USE FOX AGAINST A PIKACHU...Not trying to be ignorant, but, seriously, I doubt anyone has ever went fox on his pika, especially if they KNOW he's the best of his Tri State.

I have played him zeton and i have used fox against him, he beat me in a serious friendly set 2-1. he beat me on ps1, i beat him on lylat, he beat me on yoshi's.

 

[718_ROOKI3]

What specific moves outspace Pika's shield?

Also, I don't feel that Fox outcamps Pika. I don't feel that Pika outcamps Fox, either. You're both probably going to be getting in the occasional thunder jolt/laser, but really your shine and general movement beats his thunderjolts, and the fact that he can crouch beats your lasers. He can crouch under your lasers. If he crawls, he gets hit by standing lasers, but he can just sit there and crouch and you basically have to approach. Then what?

All aerial approaches as far as I can tell, are nullified. Nair and Dair can get shield grabbed. Uair...lol. Crouch goes under Fair and Bair. Dash attack gets you shieldgrabbed, as would uptilt or jab. Dtilt and Ftilt might have enough space to not get shieldgrabbed, but I'm not sure if Pika's ftilt and dtilt outspace it.

So yeah...

he's actually right, but yea there are ways around all this that i can do if i want but if a pika mian has a fox player by the nuts and can read his every move what Avarice posted above is straight facts

and idk guys i just want to apologize for sounding so silly and derailing the thread but there must be something i see that you guys just don't about pikachu because i know pika 100%. Lets just get the real thread going k guys, sorry.

this is all the stuff from previous posts that we can look at so we can officially get back on track with the thread

utilt/fair/shield/something to get the grab > grab > dthrow till 2nd last dthrow > pummel x 4 > dthrow > utilt (NOT SMASH) > thunder > repeat

Utilt is such a good set up to thunder. (Not as DIable as Usmash) ^That is all Pikachu has to do.

Best CP: Rainbow Cruise and Luigi's Manion(it's anti pikachu) and transformation stages
Best Neutral: Lylat
Bad CP: Any other legal stage

I come from N.Y.(our rule set is different from every other region - 1 strike, 1 ban)
This is all a fox guide to fight pikachu

Stage Striking - Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Stage Banning - Anything Close quarters im sure. Brinstar, Delfino, Frigate
Stage CP'ing - Rainbow, FD, BF, Lylat, PS 1
Possible secondaries - Marth, MK, GW, Snake (to fight pika)

Dealing with opponents projectiles - Don't have pikachu bait you into reflector. Pikachu will punish you big time for it. Play around it. If pikachu camps you camp back (fox is better). If you suspect thunder when you are above the stage dont ever be afraid to shine and hold, pikachu cant really punish you for that.

Utilizing your own projectiles - Camping pikachu is the best way, SHDL or standing laser you choose. Since pikachu's tend to always jump i recommend SHDL.

Approach - Camp camp camp. You dont want to approach in this match-up due to CG's, so don't.

Defense - You defense is naturally your approach. Keep your DI and SDI on point with
pikachu's Dsmash. Also pikachu has alot of knockback on all his attacks, PAY ATTENTION.
Shielding is always good so don't be worried about yor shield breaking. DO NOT ROLL.
Pikachu's punish rolling damm near perfect, and when pikachu punishes, it aint love taps.

Edge Guarding - Its tough for Fox to edge guard pikachu so this is what i always do. Whenever pikachu is recovering from underneath the stage level i just grab the ledge forcing pikachu to get back on to th stage and attempt to punish. If pikachu is above the stage i just fire off enough lasers to build damage and read where my opponent will land in attempt to punish again.

Up-smash kill percents

Final D Pikachu - 85
Battlefield Percentages [Floor_MidPlatforms_TopPlatorm] Pikachu - 85_78_80
Luigi's Mansion Percentages [Xiivi] Pikachu - 90
Smashville platform-floor 76-85

Due to Pika having terrible grab range, no true grab setups (really...), a worse camping game than Fox, and a bit of trouble killing here... I don't think this match is LOL bad. I agree it's very much in the rat's favor.. but I have always said that an incredible Fox could hold his own here... Zeton seemingly proved it, kinda. I also don't mind the Sheik match, because the ftilt lock was proven to be escapable quite a while ago (remember Marsulas?). It requires good timing and positioning, but still... Fox also kills Sheik pretty well, and can space around her, for the most part. They're both pretty bad matchups, yeah... but neither is impossible.

Pikachu has a few grab setups.
FF fair > grab
utilt > grab
Oh, and my favorite: grab > grab ...> grab > grab > grab > grab > grab

Fox shouldn't ever land in front of shield.. I agree that Pika isn't known for it... but Fox is faster than Pika, and generally has slightly quicker moves (at least, imo... I play both... this comment is debateable, though... I realize that) Sure, Pika can cover ground... but other than possible utilt, he doesn't have any guaranteed grab setups... and since his name isn't dedede or something... I don't know that Foxes should be THAT scared of his grab game... Of COURSE it should come into play in matchup discussion... and even really make it bad for Fox... but I think Fox should be avoiding it.
this match is winnable, even if its LOL but you need a good stage to at least have a chance. Even if you try your hardest is impossible to complete a whole match in FD against pika without getting grab so the best you can do here is counter to a stage with a lot of platforms... lylat as the videos shows is in my opinion the best counter against pika as you can have complete control of the platforms and easily evade thunders with reflector. it would be very difficult for pika to get you out from the platforms so I really recommend this stage... I say that in this stage Fox has a 25-75 or a bit more... but this match is completely different to all other matchups, this is not hit and run, this is hit and JUMP, the platforms are your friends, use them.

One other thing you should also note about Lylat (which got me killed at the end of the video) is that Pikachu and Fox's forward Bs can be really screwed up by the tilting stage. I would be careful counterpicking this stage because of that. Pikachu can still QAC onto the stage, but Fox will either have lag from up B getting back on, a predictable trajectory with forward B getting back on, or have to take his chances with the unpredictable ledge and hope not to get gimped by it. I counter pick this stage against Falco players sometimes because of the easily punishable recovery options.

I agree with you... and actually quite a lot of matchup discussion has already gone on (I owuld definitely understand if you didn't read through the whole thread here). The last several posts of mine have been directed towards Rookie who, imo, derailed a useful thread.

As I've said a couple times already... Fox players HAVE to know this matchup, if just to combat players who CP Pika in the confines of a tournament match, in which case, you wouldn't be able to switch characters. Do I think it's in Fox's favor? certainly not... do I think it's winnable? yes.
But, AP and Zeton are both correct. We should start focusing on how a good Fox should approach this match. To use AP's questions as kind of a template:

Pika's grab setups?
Pikachu mains, thus far, have said that FF Fair and utilt are both legit grab setups. I cannot say on utilt, but FF fair is escapable with DI away and a jump, easily enough, since Pika's fair does not autocancel, and thus, he suffers a bit of lag. Utilt needs testing to see if it is escapable.

Ways to most safely approach?
Bair, ftilt, Nair even, utilt, and a few other attacks have hitboxes that extend past Pika's grab range, so they are safe on shield... Fair zoning is not a bad tool, really, but it doesn't seem like you can hit him all that often, so probably not the best option... PWGs are really nice, since they are unpunishable after the grab... among other things

Ways to deal damage without approaching? Laser laser laser... Pika quick, but you can still camp him

What Pika can do if you camp? Sometimes camp back... which is really nice to see, since Fox does pretty well against Pika's camp game, and puts damage on.. Otherwise, he approaches with spaced aerials, grab, or QAC aerials... He actually has decent approach options, simply because they are harder to predict and punish, but if you get the timings down, it's not impossible

Killing? Fox is the better killer... Pika has his smashes (Dsmash should never fully hit with DI), thunder, and Nair, mainly, as killers. His smashes are strong, but Nair takes some time to kill, and thunder is a bit easy to predict and punish. I feel that this is the one area that helps Fox in the match... Pika's killing attacks mostly lack range, with his large range ones being slower and easier to avoid...

How do you play after you've been CGd to 100%?Take a deep breath and keep playing. This is where Fox can do quite a lot to Pika, while the rat is trying to land a legit kill.. just keep playing evasively... watch for a QAC Nair, and the rest are fairly easy to avoid... keep applying damage and stick to your game.

Pika's grab setups?
1. Shielding and getting grabbed helps pikachu (grabbing a shield extends you grab range)
2. Jab>Grab
3. Soft Nair>Grab
4. Uair>Grab
5. Thunderjolt>Grab
6. QAC>Grab
7. Shield>Grab
8. Spot dodge>Grab
9. Dash attack>Grab

Ways to most safely approach? Approach from the air and be sure to land on platforms, that way you have more time to see what your opponents movements are and start to create real approachs.

Ways to deal damage without approaching? If the opponent tends to abuse jumping, SHDL's. If not stand across stage and fire Standing Lasers, pikachu isn't a fast runner

What Pika can do if you camp? Approach with QAC'ing, use thunderjolts

Killing? Don't rely on upsmash because your putting yourself in a grab scenario, instead try b-airs, and u-airs.

How do you play after you've been CGd to 100%? Remeber that pikachu has limited kill shots and even then with proper DI your safe till about 130% 140%. Just rack up the damage you can on your opponent and pray your up a stock when you get grabbed for the 1st time

 

[Fenrir VII]

What specific moves outspace Pika's shield?

Also, I don't feel that Fox outcamps Pika. I don't feel that Pika outcamps Fox, either. You're both probably going to be getting in the occasional thunder jolt/laser, but really your shine and general movement beats his thunderjolts, and the fact that he can crouch beats your lasers. He can crouch under your lasers. If he crawls, he gets hit by standing lasers, but he can just sit there and crouch and you basically have to approach. Then what?

All aerial approaches as far as I can tell, are nullified. Nair and Dair can get shield grabbed. Uair...lol. Crouch goes under Fair and Bair. Dash attack gets you shieldgrabbed, as would uptilt or jab. Dtilt and Ftilt might have enough space to not get shieldgrabbed, but I'm not sure if Pika's ftilt and dtilt outspace it.

So yeah...

Bair hits a crouch. Utilt outspaces grab. Ftilt outspaces grab. Nair can fade behind a shield easy peasy.

Fox doesn't have to approach a crouching pika... faulty logic.

he's actually right, but yea there are ways around all this that i can do if i want but if a pika mian has a fox player by the nuts and can read his every move what Avarice posted above is straight facts

lol...no it's not

and idk guys i just want to apologize for sounding so silly and derailing the thread but there must be something i see that you guys just don't about pikachu because i know pika 100%. Lets just get the real thread going k guys, sorry.

Just to clarify something... if you disagree with somebody... it doesn't mean that they are instantly wrong... One party may be right, and the other may be wrong, but you could just as easily be wrong as anybody else in this thread. Even Pika mains don't know Pika 100%... so no... you don't.

this is all the stuff from previous posts that we can look at so we can officially get back on track with the thread

utilt/fair/shield/something to get the grab > grab > dthrow till 2nd last dthrow > pummel x 4 > dthrow > utilt (NOT SMASH) > thunder > repeat

Utilt is such a good set up to thunder. (Not as DIable as Usmash) ^That is all Pikachu has to do.

Best CP: Rainbow Cruise and Luigi's Manion(it's anti pikachu) and transformation stages
Best Neutral: Lylat
Bad CP: Any other legal stage

I come from N.Y.(our rule set is different from every other region - 1 strike, 1 ban)
This is all a fox guide to fight pikachu

Stage Striking - Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Stage Banning - Anything Close quarters im sure. Brinstar, Delfino, Frigate
Stage CP'ing - Rainbow, FD, BF, Lylat, PS 1
Possible secondaries - Marth, MK, GW, Snake (to fight pika)

Dealing with opponents projectiles - Don't have pikachu bait you into reflector. Pikachu will punish you big time for it. Play around it. If pikachu camps you camp back (fox is better). If you suspect thunder when you are above the stage dont ever be afraid to shine and hold, pikachu cant really punish you for that.

Utilizing your own projectiles - Camping pikachu is the best way, SHDL or standing laser you choose. Since pikachu's tend to always jump i recommend SHDL.

Approach - Camp camp camp. You dont want to approach in this match-up due to CG's, so don't.

Defense - You defense is naturally your approach. Keep your DI and SDI on point with
pikachu's Dsmash. Also pikachu has alot of knockback on all his attacks, PAY ATTENTION.
Shielding is always good so don't be worried about yor shield breaking. DO NOT ROLL.
Pikachu's punish rolling damm near perfect, and when pikachu punishes, it aint love taps.

Edge Guarding - Its tough for Fox to edge guard pikachu so this is what i always do. Whenever pikachu is recovering from underneath the stage level i just grab the ledge forcing pikachu to get back on to th stage and attempt to punish. If pikachu is above the stage i just fire off enough lasers to build damage and read where my opponent will land in attempt to punish again.

Watch for an usmash here, if you can... as long as Pika can't QAC into the ground, an usmash is pretty good..

Up-smash kill percents

Final D Pikachu - 85
Battlefield Percentages [Floor_MidPlatforms_TopPlatorm] Pikachu - 85_78_80
Luigi's Mansion Percentages [Xiivi] Pikachu - 90
Smashville platform-floor 76-85

Due to Pika having terrible grab range, no true grab setups (really...), a worse camping game than Fox, and a bit of trouble killing here... I don't think this match is LOL bad. I agree it's very much in the rat's favor.. but I have always said that an incredible Fox could hold his own here... Zeton seemingly proved it, kinda. I also don't mind the Sheik match, because the ftilt lock was proven to be escapable quite a while ago (remember Marsulas?). It requires good timing and positioning, but still... Fox also kills Sheik pretty well, and can space around her, for the most part. They're both pretty bad matchups, yeah... but neither is impossible.

Pikachu has a few grab setups.
FF fair > grab
utilt > grab
Oh, and my favorite: grab > grab ...> grab > grab > grab > grab > grab

Fox shouldn't ever land in front of shield.. I agree that Pika isn't known for it... but Fox is faster than Pika, and generally has slightly quicker moves (at least, imo... I play both... this comment is debateable, though... I realize that) Sure, Pika can cover ground... but other than possible utilt, he doesn't have any guaranteed grab setups... and since his name isn't dedede or something... I don't know that Foxes should be THAT scared of his grab game... Of COURSE it should come into play in matchup discussion... and even really make it bad for Fox... but I think Fox should be avoiding it.
this match is winnable, even if its LOL but you need a good stage to at least have a chance. Even if you try your hardest is impossible to complete a whole match in FD against pika without getting grab so the best you can do here is counter to a stage with a lot of platforms... lylat as the videos shows is in my opinion the best counter against pika as you can have complete control of the platforms and easily evade thunders with reflector. it would be very difficult for pika to get you out from the platforms so I really recommend this stage... I say that in this stage Fox has a 25-75 or a bit more... but this match is completely different to all other matchups, this is not hit and run, this is hit and JUMP, the platforms are your friends, use them.

One other thing you should also note about Lylat (which got me killed at the end of the video) is that Pikachu and Fox's forward Bs can be really screwed up by the tilting stage. I would be careful counterpicking this stage because of that. Pikachu can still QAC onto the stage, but Fox will either have lag from up B getting back on, a predictable trajectory with forward B getting back on, or have to take his chances with the unpredictable ledge and hope not to get gimped by it. I counter pick this stage against Falco players sometimes because of the easily punishable recovery options.

I agree with you... and actually quite a lot of matchup discussion has already gone on (I owuld definitely understand if you didn't read through the whole thread here). The last several posts of mine have been directed towards Rookie who, imo, derailed a useful thread.

As I've said a couple times already... Fox players HAVE to know this matchup, if just to combat players who CP Pika in the confines of a tournament match, in which case, you wouldn't be able to switch characters. Do I think it's in Fox's favor? certainly not... do I think it's winnable? yes.
But, AP and Zeton are both correct. We should start focusing on how a good Fox should approach this match. To use AP's questions as kind of a template:

Pika's grab setups?
Pikachu mains, thus far, have said that FF Fair and utilt are both legit grab setups. I cannot say on utilt, but FF fair is escapable with DI away and a jump, easily enough, since Pika's fair does not autocancel, and thus, he suffers a bit of lag. Utilt needs testing to see if it is escapable.

Ways to most safely approach?
Bair, ftilt, Nair even, utilt, and a few other attacks have hitboxes that extend past Pika's grab range, so they are safe on shield... Fair zoning is not a bad tool, really, but it doesn't seem like you can hit him all that often, so probably not the best option... PWGs are really nice, since they are unpunishable after the grab... among other things

Ways to deal damage without approaching? Laser laser laser... Pika quick, but you can still camp him

What Pika can do if you camp? Sometimes camp back... which is really nice to see, since Fox does pretty well against Pika's camp game, and puts damage on.. Otherwise, he approaches with spaced aerials, grab, or QAC aerials... He actually has decent approach options, simply because they are harder to predict and punish, but if you get the timings down, it's not impossible

Killing? Fox is the better killer... Pika has his smashes (Dsmash should never fully hit with DI), thunder, and Nair, mainly, as killers. His smashes are strong, but Nair takes some time to kill, and thunder is a bit easy to predict and punish. I feel that this is the one area that helps Fox in the match... Pika's killing attacks mostly lack range, with his large range ones being slower and easier to avoid...

How do you play after you've been CGd to 100%?Take a deep breath and keep playing. This is where Fox can do quite a lot to Pika, while the rat is trying to land a legit kill.. just keep playing evasively... watch for a QAC Nair, and the rest are fairly easy to avoid... keep applying damage and stick to your game.

Pika's grab setups?
1. Shielding and getting grabbed helps pikachu (grabbing a shield extends you grab range)
2. Jab>Grab only works on a trip
3. Soft Nair>Grab not enough time... escapable
4. Uair>Grab not enough time... escapable
5. Thunderjolt>Grab um... avoid thunderjolt?
6. QAC>Grab nah... doesn't work
7. Shield>Grab land behind shield. presto.
8. Spot dodge>Grab see above
9. Dash attack>Grab not enough time... escapable

Ways to most safely approach? Approach from the air and be sure to land on platforms, that way you have more time to see what your opponents movements are and start to create real approachs.

Ways to deal damage without approaching? If the opponent tends to abuse jumping, SHDL's. If not stand across stage and fire Standing Lasers, pikachu isn't a fast runner

What Pika can do if you camp? Approach with QAC'ing, use thunderjolts

Killing? Don't rely on upsmash because your putting yourself in a grab scenario, instead try b-airs, and u-airs.

true. Bair is really nice for the whole matchup

How do you play after you've been CGd to 100%? Remeber that pikachu has limited kill shots and even then with proper DI your safe till about 130% 140%. Just rack up the damage you can on your opponent and pray your up a stock when you get grabbed for the 1st time

 

[Pika_Cam]

Boxingking, one of the best Pikas in my opinion, told me that Pika's bair is good to get Fox off of the platforms when he is platform camping. You may want to take that into account.

If Pikachu is under the stage, then I would have to agree with what someone said earlier about grabbing the ledge. Most Pikachus will go for it if they are under the stage.

I don't like that we are completely dismissing FF fair > grab as a grab setup just because it is DI-able. It is still a pseudo grab setup that works a lot of the time, and Foxes should definitely know about it. I am not going to go test how escapable utilt > grab is, but I have used it a few times in match.

For all of the Foxes that think this matchup shouldn't be discussed because it is so bad, let me pose this scenario to you. You are in a tournament and win the first match with your amazing Fox against another player's Bowser. Because he's your main, you choose to stick with Fox. The other player says, "Ok, I'm using Pikachu." There you go. You are now in a tournament match versus a Pikachu, and you can't change characters. You can wait until the third match to CP the Pikachu, but why give the other player a freebie?

 

[Zeton]

Boxingking, one of the best Pikas in my opinion, told me that Pika's bair is good to get Fox off of the platforms when he is platform camping. You may want to take that into account.

If Pikachu is under the stage, then I would have to agree with what someone said earlier about grabbing the ledge. Most Pikachus will go for it if they are under the stage.

I don't like that we are completely dismissing FF fair > grab as a grab setup just because it is DI-able. It is still a pseudo grab setup that works a lot of the time, and Foxes should definitely know about it. I am not going to go test how escapable utilt > grab is, but I have used it a few times in match.

For all of the Foxes that think this matchup shouldn't be discussed because it is so bad, let me pose this scenario to you. You are in a tournament and win the first match with your amazing Fox against another player's Bowser. Because he's your main, you choose to stick with Fox. The other player says, "Ok, I'm using Pikachu." There you go. You are now in a tournament match versus a Pikachu, and you can't change characters. You can wait until the third match to CP the Pikachu, but why give the other player a freebie?

Thank you, I've had to deal with this situation many, many times.

Isn't you back air though hard to auto cancel with short hopping?

 

[Ussi]

Pikachu has a special grab set up on Fox o.o; well claimed by other pikas that is.

Utilt > grab (works only at first 10% or so though xD so just don't get utilt in the beginning)

 

[Zeton]

Yes, that set up is really nasty, my buddy Stealth Raptor was the one that performed that set up on me in a tournament match a few months ago.

 

[Pika_Cam]

Thank you, I've had to deal with this situation many, many times.

Isn't you back air though hard to auto cancel with short hopping?

Yes, but the lag doesn't matter much if you can land the last hit of it on the other player. They will be knocked back far enough that they don't have time to punish. I've poked through people's shields with bair quite a few times also.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Pika_cam is cool

Yeah, Fair and Utilt > grab should both be considered... I've never had trouble with Fair, since Pika has a bit of landing lag with it... utilt, though, I'm not personally sure...

And yeah, Bair is one of my favorite moves as Pika... it can shield poke (although Fox's shield is pretty pro, really).. it last a long time, and has decent knockback (allowing it to be mostly unpunishable). It also autocancels on a full hop... I can see how it would be a utility move against the platform camping, sure...

 

[The Truth!]

Thought I'd mention...pikachu can crawl under Fox's lasers without being hit. Theres some confusion because pikachu can duck but cant crawl under falcos. If I see a fox overly abuse his lasers then Ill crawl within range where they wouldnt be safe using them.

Also, pikachu really doesnt have a terrible time grabbing. It's one thing to say that fox is decent at avoiding grabs, but in spite of his poor range pika has a great grab game thanks to his overall speed and movement. That can be minimized at your detriment. As far as "set-ups" (though most grabs imo come as direct punishment, these are generally punishment moves that lead into grabs) uair does work at certain percents, as does utilt. So does dtilt. Regarding fair, Ill just say that for as long as brawl's been out I cant ever recall a time when someone has been able to jump out, spot dodge, or counter attack an fair thats had more then 1 of its hits connect. Even SDI generally doesnt send you far enough Not to say that it doesnt happen, but if it does its fairly rare. One way I like to set up fair is to connect a uair, retreat a ff fair, then grab. Another thing to note is that pikachus vertical grab range is broken, he grabs at heights he really has no business grabbing (check out the CG on snake to get an idea) so if you get touched by fair theres a decent chance it can lead to a grab.

And touching on kill moves, Fox's usmash kills pika so early . Pikas has some decent options though. Avoiding thunder is only an option if you can exit the hitstun in time, but sometimes youre just going to get hit, usually after a utilt, an upsmash, or a dsmash (especially if you get hit late and tried to DI up out of but didnt get out of in time). Everything else was probably mentioned.