he's actually right, but yea there are ways around all this that i can do if i want but if a pika mian has a fox player by the nuts and can read his every move what Avarice posted above is straight facts
lol...no it's not
and idk guys i just want to apologize for sounding so silly and derailing the thread but there must be something i see that you guys just don't about pikachu because i know pika 100%. Lets just get the real thread going k guys, sorry.
Just to clarify something... if you disagree with somebody... it doesn't mean that they are instantly wrong... One party may be right, and the other may be wrong, but you could just as easily be wrong as anybody else in this thread. Even Pika mains don't know Pika 100%... so no... you don't.
this is all the stuff from previous posts that we can look at so we can officially get back on track with the thread
utilt/fair/shield/something to get the grab > grab > dthrow till 2nd last dthrow > pummel x 4 > dthrow > utilt (NOT SMASH) > thunder > repeat
Utilt is such a good set up to thunder. (Not as DIable as Usmash) ^That is all Pikachu has to do.
Best CP: Rainbow Cruise and Luigi's Manion(it's anti pikachu) and transformation stages
Best Neutral: Lylat
Bad CP: Any other legal stage
I come from N.Y.(our rule set is different from every other region - 1 strike, 1 ban)
This is all a fox guide to fight pikachu
Stage Striking - Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Stage Banning - Anything Close quarters im sure. Brinstar, Delfino, Frigate
Stage CP'ing - Rainbow, FD, BF, Lylat, PS 1
Possible secondaries - Marth, MK, GW, Snake (to fight pika)
Dealing with opponents projectiles - Don't have pikachu bait you into reflector. Pikachu will punish you big time for it. Play around it. If pikachu camps you camp back (fox is better). If you suspect thunder when you are above the stage dont ever be afraid to shine and hold, pikachu cant really punish you for that.
Utilizing your own projectiles - Camping pikachu is the best way, SHDL or standing laser you choose. Since pikachu's tend to always jump i recommend SHDL.
Approach - Camp camp camp. You dont want to approach in this match-up due to CG's, so don't.
Defense - You defense is naturally your approach. Keep your DI and SDI on point with
pikachu's Dsmash. Also pikachu has alot of knockback on all his attacks, PAY ATTENTION.
Shielding is always good so don't be worried about yor shield breaking. DO NOT ROLL.
Pikachu's punish rolling damm near perfect, and when pikachu punishes, it aint love taps.
Edge Guarding - Its tough for Fox to edge guard pikachu so this is what i always do. Whenever pikachu is recovering from underneath the stage level i just grab the ledge forcing pikachu to get back on to th stage and attempt to punish. If pikachu is above the stage i just fire off enough lasers to build damage and read where my opponent will land in attempt to punish again.
Watch for an usmash here, if you can... as long as Pika can't QAC into the ground, an usmash is pretty good..
Up-smash kill percents
Final D Pikachu - 85
Battlefield Percentages [Floor_MidPlatforms_TopPlatorm] Pikachu - 85_78_80
Luigi's Mansion Percentages [Xiivi] Pikachu - 90
Smashville platform-floor 76-85
Due to Pika having terrible grab range, no true grab setups (really...), a worse camping game than Fox, and a bit of trouble killing here... I don't think this match is LOL bad. I agree it's very much in the rat's favor.. but I have always said that an incredible Fox could hold his own here... Zeton seemingly proved it, kinda. I also don't mind the Sheik match, because the ftilt lock was proven to be escapable quite a while ago (remember Marsulas?). It requires good timing and positioning, but still... Fox also kills Sheik pretty well, and can space around her, for the most part. They're both pretty bad matchups, yeah... but neither is impossible.
Pikachu has a few grab setups.
FF fair > grab
utilt > grab
Oh, and my favorite: grab > grab ...> grab > grab > grab > grab > grab
Fox shouldn't ever land in front of shield.. I agree that Pika isn't known for it... but Fox is faster than Pika, and generally has slightly quicker moves (at least, imo... I play both... this comment is debateable, though... I realize that) Sure, Pika can cover ground... but other than possible utilt, he doesn't have any guaranteed grab setups... and since his name isn't dedede or something... I don't know that Foxes should be THAT scared of his grab game... Of COURSE it should come into play in matchup discussion... and even really make it bad for Fox... but I think Fox should be avoiding it.
this match is winnable, even if its LOL but you need a good stage to at least have a chance. Even if you try your hardest is impossible to complete a whole match in FD against pika without getting grab so the best you can do here is counter to a stage with a lot of platforms... lylat as the videos shows is in my opinion the best counter against pika as you can have complete control of the platforms and easily evade thunders with reflector. it would be very difficult for pika to get you out from the platforms so I really recommend this stage... I say that in this stage Fox has a 25-75 or a bit more... but this match is completely different to all other matchups, this is not hit and run, this is hit and JUMP, the platforms are your friends, use them.
One other thing you should also note about Lylat (which got me killed at the end of the video) is that Pikachu and Fox's forward Bs can be really screwed up by the tilting stage. I would be careful counterpicking this stage because of that. Pikachu can still QAC onto the stage, but Fox will either have lag from up B getting back on, a predictable trajectory with forward B getting back on, or have to take his chances with the unpredictable ledge and hope not to get gimped by it. I counter pick this stage against Falco players sometimes because of the easily punishable recovery options.
I agree with you... and actually quite a lot of matchup discussion has already gone on (I owuld definitely understand if you didn't read through the whole thread here). The last several posts of mine have been directed towards Rookie who, imo, derailed a useful thread.
As I've said a couple times already... Fox players HAVE to know this matchup, if just to combat players who CP Pika in the confines of a tournament match, in which case, you wouldn't be able to switch characters. Do I think it's in Fox's favor? certainly not... do I think it's winnable? yes.
But, AP and Zeton are both correct. We should start focusing on how a good Fox should approach this match. To use AP's questions as kind of a template:
Pika's grab setups?
Pikachu mains, thus far, have said that FF Fair and utilt are both legit grab setups. I cannot say on utilt, but FF fair is escapable with DI away and a jump, easily enough, since Pika's fair does not autocancel, and thus, he suffers a bit of lag. Utilt needs testing to see if it is escapable.
Ways to most safely approach?
Bair, ftilt, Nair even, utilt, and a few other attacks have hitboxes that extend past Pika's grab range, so they are safe on shield... Fair zoning is not a bad tool, really, but it doesn't seem like you can hit him all that often, so probably not the best option... PWGs are really nice, since they are unpunishable after the grab... among other things
Ways to deal damage without approaching? Laser laser laser... Pika quick, but you can still camp him
What Pika can do if you camp? Sometimes camp back... which is really nice to see, since Fox does pretty well against Pika's camp game, and puts damage on.. Otherwise, he approaches with spaced aerials, grab, or QAC aerials... He actually has decent approach options, simply because they are harder to predict and punish, but if you get the timings down, it's not impossible
Killing? Fox is the better killer... Pika has his smashes (Dsmash should never fully hit with DI), thunder, and Nair, mainly, as killers. His smashes are strong, but Nair takes some time to kill, and thunder is a bit easy to predict and punish. I feel that this is the one area that helps Fox in the match... Pika's killing attacks mostly lack range, with his large range ones being slower and easier to avoid...
How do you play after you've been CGd to 100%?Take a deep breath and keep playing. This is where Fox can do quite a lot to Pika, while the rat is trying to land a legit kill.. just keep playing evasively... watch for a QAC Nair, and the rest are fairly easy to avoid... keep applying damage and stick to your game.
Pika's grab setups?
1. Shielding and getting grabbed helps pikachu (grabbing a shield extends you grab range)
2. Jab>Grab
only works on a trip
3. Soft Nair>Grab
not enough time... escapable
4. Uair>Grab
not enough time... escapable
5. Thunderjolt>Grab
um... avoid thunderjolt?
6. QAC>Grab
nah... doesn't work
7. Shield>Grab
land behind shield. presto.
8. Spot dodge>Grab
see above
9. Dash attack>Grab
not enough time... escapable
Ways to most safely approach? Approach from the air and be sure to land on platforms, that way you have more time to see what your opponents movements are and start to create real approachs.
Ways to deal damage without approaching? If the opponent tends to abuse jumping, SHDL's. If not stand across stage and fire Standing Lasers, pikachu isn't a fast runner
What Pika can do if you camp? Approach with QAC'ing, use thunderjolts
Killing? Don't rely on upsmash because your putting yourself in a grab scenario, instead try b-airs, and u-airs.
true. Bair is really nice for the whole matchup
How do you play after you've been CGd to 100%? Remeber that pikachu has limited kill shots and even then with proper DI your safe till about 130% 140%. Just rack up the damage you can on your opponent and pray your up a stock when you get grabbed for the 1st time