Match-Up Export #1: Pikachu (In-Progress)

[Xiivi]

Pikachu

Summary of Key Points​

Pikachu has the following chaingrab possibilities on Fox:

• Buffered Downthrow Chaingrab: XX%
• Unbuffered Downthrow Chaingrab: XX%
• Forwardthrow Chaingrab: XX%

Fox has the following set-ups on Pikachu:

• ???
• ???

Pikachu dies to a fresh upsmash at XX% on Final Destination with no DI.
Pikachu dies to a fresh upsmash at ~XX% on Final Destination with proper DI.
Pikachu has a stronger/weaker/equal aerial game than Fox in this match-up.
Pikachu has a stronger/weaker/equal ground game than Fox in this match-up.
Pikachu has a stronger/weaker/equal edgeguarding game than Fox in this match-up.
Pikachu has a stronger/weaker/equal survivability than Fox in this match-up.
Pikachu has a stronger/weaker/equal camping game than Fox in this match-up.
Pikachu is a hard counter to Fox.

Advantages​

Disadvantages​

Strategy & Match-Up Mentality​

Aerial Game:
Ground Game:
Approach:
Defense:
Camping Game:
Edge Game:
Surviving:
Killing:
Frame Data:

Banning & Counter-Picking​

Stage Striking:

• Possible Fox Strikes...
• Possible Pikachu Strikes...
• To Be Classified...
  Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), Delfino Plaza*, Battleship Halberd*, Lylat Cruise, Pokemon Stadium 1, Castle Siege*, Brinstar*
  *Indicates a stage that is not commonly starter, but possible. Neither player should depend on these.

Stage Banning:

• Possible Fox Bans...
• Possible Pikachu Bans...
• To Be Classified...
  Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Pokémon Stadium 1, Brinstar, Corneria*, Distant Planet*, Frigate Orpheon, Green Hill Zone*, Jungle Japes, Luigi's Mansion, Norfair, Pictochat*, Pirate Ship, Pokémon Stadium 2, Rainbow Cruise, Yoshi's Island (Pipes)*, Green Greens*, Mario Circuit*, Onett*, Port Town Aero Dive*, Skyworld*
  *Indicates a stage that is not commonly legal, but possible. Neither player should depend on these.

Stage Counterpicks:

• Possible Fox Counterpicks...
• Possible Pikachu Counterpicks...
• To Be Classified...
  Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Pokémon Stadium 1, Brinstar, Corneria*, Distant Planet*, Frigate Orpheon, Green Hill Zone*, Jungle Japes, Luigi's Mansion, Norfair, Pictochat*, Pirate Ship, Pokémon Stadium 2, Rainbow Cruise, Yoshi's Island (Pipes)*, Green Greens*, Mario Circuit*, Onett*, Port Town Aero Dive*, Skyworld*
  *Indicates a stage that is not commonly legal, but possible. Neither player should depend on these.

Character Counterpicks:

• Possible Fox Counterpicks...
  Secondaries highly recommended:
  In Discussion
• Possible Pikachu Counterpicks...
  Unnecessary

Videos & Other Outside Resources​

Videos

• Matches on Starter Stages
  <object width="500" height="315"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/EWikLs0PQQE&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0xcc2550&color2=0xe87a9f&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/EWikLs0PQQE&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0xcc2550&color2=0xe87a9f&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="500" height="315"></embed></object>
• Matches on Counterpick Stages
• Chaingrab Demonstration Videos
  <object width="445" height="364"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/5v8Myoltijo&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0xcc2550&color2=0xe87a9f&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/5v8Myoltijo&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0xcc2550&color2=0xe87a9f&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="445" height="364"></embed></object>

Other

• Thread Specifics
• Misc.

Verdict​

General Ratio: XX:XX​

Stage Dependent Ratios:

• ?: XX:XX
• ?: XX:XX

Planned Updates:
Links to Matches
Link to Pikachu Boards Fox Match-Up Discussion
Links to All Previous Pikachu Discussion from the Fox Boards
Stage Banning
Stage Striking
Stage Counter-Picking
Possible Secondaries
Chaingrab Specifics
Dealing with Opponent Projects
Utilizing your Own Projectiles
Approach
Defense
Recovery
Edgeguarding
Killing & Surviving
Frame Data Comparisons
Advantages & Disadvantages
Key Points

Okay guys, I have this pretty well planned out for us now, so feel free to contribute whatever you can as I go ahead and go about updating this piece by piece.

 

[Zhamy]

After testing with buffered chaingrabs, you can escape at...90% from the Pikachu CG. Right.

 

[Ussi]

utilt/fair/shield/something to get the grab > grab > dthrow till 2nd last dthrow > pummel x 4 > dthrow > utilt (NOT SMASH) > thunder > repeat

Utilt is such a good set up to thunder. (Not as DIable as Usmash) ^That is all Pikachu has to do.


Best CP: Rainbow Cruise and Luigi's Manion(it's anti pikachu) and transformation stages

Best Neutral: Lylat

Bad CP: Any other legal stage

MU: 80:20 Pikachu

 

[718_ROOKI3]

I come from N.Y.(our rule set is different from every other region - 1 strike, 1 ban)

This is all a fox guide to fight pikachu

Stage Striking - Yoshi's Island (Brawl)

Stage Banning - Anything Close quarters im sure
Brinstar
Delfino
Frigate

Stage CP'ing -
Rainbow
FD
BF
Lylat
PS 1

Possible secondaries - Marth, MK, GW, Snake (to fight pika)

Dealing with opponents projectiles - Don't have pikachu bait you into reflector. Pikachu will punish you big time for it. Play around it. If pikachu camps you camp back (fox is better). If you suspect thunder when you are above the stage dont ever be afraid to shine and hold, pikachu cant really punish you for that.

Utilizing your own projectiles - Camping pikachu is the best way, SHDL or standing laser you choose. Since pikachu's tend to always jump i recommend SHDL.

Approach - Camp camp camp. You dont want to approach in this match-up due to CG's, so don't.

Defense - You defense is naturally your approach. Keep your DI and SDI on point with
pikachu's Dsmash. Also pikachu has alot of knockback on all his attacks, PAY ATTENTION.
Shielding is always good so don't be worried about yor shield breaking. DO NOT ROLL.
Pikachu's punish rolling damm near perfect, and when pikachu punishes, it aint love taps.

Edge Guarding - Its tough for Fox to edge guard pikachu so this is what i always do. Whenever pikachu is recovering from underneath the stage level i just grab the ledge forcing pikachu to get back on to th stage and attempt to punish. If pikachu is above the stage i just fire off enough lasers to build damage and read where my opponent will land in attempt to punish again.

 

[Xiivi]

Hey guys, I'm going to be wanting to get a big update on this done. I'm waiting for lots of opinions from lots of players so I'm not just taking one person's. I'll wait until Saturday for everyone to post.

 

[718_ROOKI3]

That CG demonstration vid. is really important to me. I want all the foxes to really absorb that non-sense and understand what kind of new BS pikachu's have discovered. I'm praying it gets banned...

 

[Zhamy]

Right, I just played this matchup for an hour straight. Yes, I got my *** kicked. Royally. Here are some things I've learned.

1) Pikachu's grab range is abysmal. Absolute crap. If you're going to play this matchup, learn that range well. Know exactly where he can grab you from and where you're safe. Nothing says "**** you Pikachu" better than walking just out of his range and Usmashing him.

2) Do not get faked out by aerial approaches. SDI everything that is multi-hit. The last thing you want is Fair leading into a grab because you weren't careful. Watch for QAC followups - he may Nair, he may stay in place and grab, he may simply jump away. Don't be scared of it. If you can react fast enough, move away and punish. As for his other aerials, they're mostly safe, so don't stay in your shield too long. You'll have to try risky things to beat out Pikachu if you're on the defensive, but almost anything is better than getting your shield eaten away at and then poked. But do not roll. That is asking for death. Spot dodging while Pikachu is facing you is asking for a grab. If you need to get out shield immediately, try predicting and beating Pikachu out with a Bair/Nair.

3) Stopping Pikachu from getting in on you is probably the difficult part. SH Fair and Nair work wonders. Fair will outprioritize a good number of moves, and Nair is rather safe to poke with and against shield. Bair does the job well too, but I find myself a bit limited since I can use crossup Nairs, but not crossup Bair. Throwing it in, though, will keep the Pikachu player from trying anything too aggressive.

4) Dealing with Thunderbolt is just a matter of good spacing. Don't run into some tailspike or aerial silliness when trying to avoid Thunderbolt. If it's a viable, option, powershield. Powershielding is EASY in Brawl. Use it. Do not use the reflector if you can help it. You will get punished horribly. It'll take practice to get the timing right, but if you see a Pikachu closing in on you , you may be able to escape with a dashing powershield. Hopefully, Pikachu will go past you, and your momentum will carry you far enough to reset. On recovery, Thunderbolt can really screw you. Be careful not to rising Fair into a Thunderbolt, and try to time it so that Pikachu isn't guarding the below the ledge with Thunderbolt and on the stage with...his body. Shine stalling helps here - you want to recover above the stage if possible.

5) "But what about Thunder?" What about it? More or less, don't get hit. You can reflect that silliness, so do so. If not, air dodge. If you do get hit, SDI LIKE A MADMAN. Depending on the blast zones, you want to DI upwards and toward the stage (but be careful of vertical death).

6) Lasers. SHDL if Pikachu is on the other side of the stage, and if you're feeling unsafe about your spacing or control, go to SHLs once Pikachu starts coming closer. With good use of reflector, powershielding, and lasers, you should be able to outcamp Pikachu if they try something like that. If you really have to do that, though, that means you need to learn to space better. Pikachu's ground game is nothing amazing, so SHDLs are your best bet to tack on damage.

7) Dsmash. Why aren't you SDI-ing this BS move? SDI out, tech, take the 3% and thank him for the reset.

8) Gimping Pikachu: Don't try it. As long as you're hugging the edge, Pikachu must recover on the stage. Your best bet from there is seeing if you can punish. If not, at least your positioning is reset. If he's above the stage, just see if you can hit him with something (aerial, lasers) SAFELY.

9) The only way to get better at this matchup is practice. Practice, practice, practice. (And don't get grabbed.)

At best 80:20 for Pikachu. I'm thinking 70:30-80:20 (talking to Pikachu mains and playing has refined my opinion of this matchup).

 

[Ussi]

OH yea, Rookie, Snake is not a character you CP to fight Pikachu with. Snake can of course fight Pikachu, but its in Pika's favor still.

 

[Uzima (Uzi)]

Up-smash kill percents

Final D
Pikachu - 85

Battlefield Percentages
[Floor_MidPlatforms_TopPlatorm]
Pikachu - 85_78_80

Luigi's Mansion Percentages [Xiivi]
Pikachu - 90

Smashville platform-floor
76-85

cause i felt like copy pastine a bunch

 

[Ussi]

If that was in training mode add 5% and then 10% more for good DI, its a good rule of thumb.

 

[Uzima (Uzi)]

If that was in training mode add 5% and then 10% more for good DI, its a good rule of thumb.

i'm thinking all of those were in training mode, i'll get the smashville percents right now actually.

 

[moogle]

Uh oh.. they found my video vs. Cam. :embarrass

I don't claim to know much about the matchup vs Pikachu. I run away a lot. And I know I should be lasering a lot (laser > jolt). You really want to avoid ground combat with Pikachu. Know that if they powershield your uptilt, for example, that can be a free grab for Pikachu. So yeah... I usually tend to just run away rather than try my close combat tricks.

Platform camping is one way to get Pikachu in the air. You're probably going to spend most of this matchup in the air. Nair is your best air-to-air move... I think. Watch out for Pikachu's nair, though... it's a kill move at reasonable percents (110-140?). Pikachu's uair and fair are high-priority too. Another thing, don't let Pikachu punish (i.e. grab) you when you have to land on the ground. Shine-stall or land on some platforms to avoid this... and/or mix up fastfalling and not fastfalling.

Probably the worst thing you can do in this matchup is get shield grabbed. If you d-air into the front of Pikachu's shield, you deserve to be killed. Remember that you never have to approach. You have a better projectile.

Smash DI up to get out of Pikachu's dsmash... it's not hard to do, and it'll save you from a lot of unnecessary deaths. Smash DI his fair in some direction... up? behind? I guess it depends on if your opponent tends to keep forward momentum during his f-air or not.

Really, during the match you have to be thinking... how does this Pikachu plan on grabbing me? If you can see grabs coming from a mile away, then you're in pretty good shape. The better Pikachus aren't going to be so transparent. You just always have to be outthinking your opponent in that regard.

my disclaimer: I might not know what I'm talking about. I don't really know that much about Brawl. :embarrass I just let my knowledge from the other Smash games carry over.

 

[Sukai]

I did a few wifi matches with Anther if it means anything.

I find the best approach is none at all.
This is a sharp defense game, if you don't have defense, put the controller down and walk away, because this match is done.
You'll need to laser.
Of course Pikachu can duck under them, but you can use that to your advantage, play around with him, get close, make him think you're going to strike, then get back.
Eventually, Pika is going to approach, like Zhamy said, forward air is the best way to go here, down air only when directly above him and afterwards, retreat!!
Do not attempt a follow up, please don't.
Up smash will fail you in this fight, go for down smash or forward smash, with proper reading, you can administer those moves well for the kill.
Wear and Tear my friend.
That's the name of the game here.

 

[RPK]

-breathes life into the thread-

 

[718_ROOKI3]

-breathes life into the thread-

*Helps* *Calls SuperMario*

R00kie - Yo how much for some 1-ups.

Mario - ****** here just finish the damm thread.

LMFAO

 

[papermario12]

i think its 55-45 Fox, since he has a reflector. His Up Smash is also killer. There's a good Fox in my area, and he kills me when I use Pikachu. Yes, the chaingrabs give Pikachu an edge, but they're cheap to me. Thus the reason I dont use them. It feels more satisfying to lose an honorable Brawl than to win a Brawl by using unfair techniques...whoops, i went off topic

 

[718_ROOKI3]

i think its 55-45 Fox, since he has a reflector. His Up Smash is also killer. There's a good Fox in my area, and he kills me when I use Pikachu. Yes, the chaingrabs give Pikachu an edge, but they're cheap to me. Thus the reason I dont use them. It feels more satisfying to lose an honorable Brawl than to win a Brawl by using unfair techniques...whoops, i went off topic

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh yea about that

 

[Zhamy]

i think its 55-45 Fox, since he has a reflector. His Up Smash is also killer. There's a good Fox in my area, and he kills me when I use Pikachu. Yes, the chaingrabs give Pikachu an edge, but they're cheap to me. Thus the reason I dont use them. It feels more satisfying to lose an honorable Brawl than to win a Brawl by using unfair techniques...whoops, i went off topic

Yes, the chaingrabs give Pikachu an edge, but they're cheap to me. Thus the reason I dont use them. It feels more satisfying to lose an honorable Brawl than to win a Brawl by using unfair techniques...

Yes, the chaingrabs give Pikachu an edge, but they're cheap to me. Thus the reason I dont use them. It feels more satisfying to lose an honorable Brawl than to win a Brawl by using unfair techniques...

Yes, the chaingrabs give Pikachu an edge, but they're cheap to me. Thus the reason I dont use them. It feels more satisfying to lose an honorable Brawl than to win a Brawl by using unfair techniques...

Yes, the chaingrabs give Pikachu an edge, but they're cheap to me. Thus the reason I dont use them. It feels more satisfying to lose an honorable Brawl than to win a Brawl by using unfair techniques...

Yes, the chaingrabs give Pikachu an edge, but they're cheap to me. Thus the reason I dont use them. It feels more satisfying to lose an honorable Brawl than to win a Brawl by using unfair techniques...

Guys, listen to this kid.

 

[Zephil]

if just all pikachus can be like you... Fox would be high tier

 

[Uzima (Uzi)]

i think its 55-45 Fox, since he has a reflector. His Up Smash is also killer. There's a good Fox in my area, and he kills me when I use Pikachu. Yes, the chaingrabs give Pikachu an edge, but they're cheap to me. Thus the reason I dont use them. It feels more satisfying to lose an honorable Brawl than to win a Brawl by using unfair techniques...whoops, i went off topic

*facepalms*

 

[Zhamy]

So guys, I think the Pikachu matchup is better than the Sheik matchup.

Agree/Disagree?

 

[Zephil]

Disagree... Sheik has the f-tilt lock but anyways remember that sheik has more problem killing that pikachu and is easier to edgeguard than pikachu

 

[718_ROOKI3]

They're both bad match-ups so im not going fox

 

[papermario12]

You guys(uzimakisensei, Zephil, and Zhamy) can be cheap if you want to, but im fighting with honor, so get back on topic or stfu

 

[C.box]

Losing with "honor" too apparently, honor doesn't really matter in a video game <_<.

Anyways... don't get grabbed?lol, Most of the pika fight was covered and I was playing this for a while and I found myself running away half the time since pika can cover distances extremely fast.... You can shine the thunder so yeah that can come in handy ._. Idk this match up seems like a bit of a lost cause.. <.<

 

[Zhamy]

You guys(uzimakisensei, Zephil, and Zhamy) can be cheap if you want to, but im fighting with honor, so get back on topic or stfu

We have no basis for communication about the matchup. Please leave.

 

[Sukai]

i think its 55-45 Fox, since he has a reflector. His Up Smash is also killer. There's a good Fox in my area, and he kills me when I use Pikachu. Yes, the chaingrabs give Pikachu an edge, but they're cheap to me. Thus the reason I dont use them. It feels more satisfying to lose an honorable Brawl than to win a Brawl by using unfair techniques...whoops, i went off topic

This guy should be dragged, kicking and screaming, into the SBR.


Anyway, Pikachu is definitely worse than Sheik, Fox camps better than Sheik, giving him a cutting advantage as he can watch out for forward tilt locks better this way, it's not a good match up, but it's doable.

Pikachu, I believe has already been established to be Fox's hands down worst match up, Pikachu to Fox is Meta planking to Falco, two abbreviations sums it all up.

"GG, CP?"

Two mother****ing chaingrabs, better camping ability, better spacing, better combos, more priority, better edge guarding, better recovery, more reliable kills, if I recall correctly, more vertical knockback resistance.

Fox should back to primal instincts and eat that mofo alive. Fox can be left with little to no options of offense, defense, evasion or recovery, it's sad at how Sakurai missed this.

 

[NeverKnowsBest]

You guys(uzimakisensei, Zephil, and Zhamy) can be cheap if you want to, but im fighting with honor, so get back on topic or stfu

Please just get out of the topic. Do you think you are helping? That post you made prior (I don't even want to try to look at it again) made me sick.

Please try to post intelligently. "I want to play with honor?" Yeah go ahead and do that, and continue to place last at the tournaments you hold at your house with your 3 stuffed animals that all play Captain Falcon.

*Sorry for flaming. His post just upset me because as much as we all want Pikachus to fight with honor, it's not going to happen.

Wow. I haven't mad an angry post in a LONG time.

 

[DarkAura]

yeah sheik.... no i have next to no problem fighting sheiks.. and same goes for most pikachu's (NOTE IM NOT A PRO AND I ONLY KNOW 2 DECENT PIKACHU'S) i really just try and predict everything and then punish the mistakes and when im not doing that... SHDLs, i retreat doing them and i close in doing them now obviously i thumb hurts after doing so many but it works LASERS ARE YOUR BEST FRIEND FIGHTING PIKACHU


OH YEAH litle edit here... if you camp and and retreat... you know hit and run and dont make to many mistakes its easier to avoid the chaingrabs

 

[Toronto Joe]

its not really which is worse,its which is dumb, and since its easier to sheildgrab then ftilt,i find the pikachu matchup to be gayer

just use a secondary lol dont even bother with those matchups,complete waste of effort and time

 

[DarkAura]

yeah but you might get caught in the bad matchup so you need some knowledge of how to win

 

[Zephil]

but there must be something fox can do in this matchups! there must be a badass kid reading this right now that is looking for clues to have a chance to win these matchups... can you imagine if we see in a couple of tourneys that a fox destroys Anther destroy Ankoku´s shiek? that would be so satisfying... so come on ppl!! we have to find at least something that we can do agains these two monsters!

 

[DarkAura]

there is... EXPLOIT THERE WEAKNESSES AND I AM SO THAT BADASS KID BTW

 

[papermario12]

Please just get out of the topic. Do you think you are helping? That post you made prior (I don't even want to try to look at it again) made me sick.

Please try to post intelligently. "I want to play with honor?" Yeah go ahead and do that, and continue to place last at the tournaments you hold at your house with your 3 stuffed animals that all play Captain Falcon.

*Sorry for flaming. His post just upset me because as much as we all want Pikachus to fight with honor, it's not going to happen.

Wow. I haven't mad an angry post in a LONG time.

Good for you.

I dont have stuffed animals, and i know you don't want to have to deal with cheap crap.

Then don't look at it.

 

[Zhamy]

Ankoku's Sheik isn't that good (he doesn't even play that much anymore); but we're getting a bit off topic (my fault, I know). We should probably continue "Pika v Sheik - which is worse?" in the general/social topic.

Also, what haven't we covered in the Pikachu matchup?

EDIT: Ignore the idiot that posted above me.

 

[papermario12]

Ankoku's Sheik isn't that good (he doesn't even play that much anymore); but we're getting a bit off topic (my fault, I know). We should probably continue "Pika v Sheik - which is worse?" in the general/social topic.

Also, what haven't we covered in the Pikachu matchup?

EDIT: Ignore the idiot that posted above me.

stfu and stop stalking me

 

[Fuego Fox]

You guys(uzimakisensei, Zephil, and Zhamy) can be cheap if you want to, but im fighting with honor, so get back on topic or stfu

15 TRILLON LOL's

 

[Fuego Fox]

but there must be something fox can do in this matchups! there must be a badass kid reading this right now that is looking for clues to have a chance to win these matchups... can you imagine if we see in a couple of tourneys that a fox destroys Anther destroy Ankoku´s shiek? that would be so satisfying... so come on ppl!! we have to find at least something that we can do agains these two monsters!

Go MK jk lol but seriously......

 

[Fenrir VII]

Due to Pika having terrible grab range, no true grab setups (really...), a worse camping game than Fox, and a bit of trouble killing here...

..I don't think this match is LOL bad. I agree it's very much in the rat's favor.. but I have always said that an incredible Fox could hold his own here... Zeton seemingly proved it, kinda.

I also don't mind the Sheik match, because the ftilt lock was proven to be escapable quite a while ago (remember Marsulas?). It requires good timing and positioning, but still...

Fox also kills Sheik pretty well, and can space around her, for the most part.

They're both pretty bad matchups, yeah... but neither is impossible.

 

[SnowballBob33]

I didn't even realize pikachu vs Fox was a matchup. Once you select those two characters, its an easter egg, and the countdown changes to 3...2...1...Game. At one point it didn't even let me press the start button. It just put Lmao instead of READY TO FIGHT

But honestly, I have no idea even why you would consider playing pikachu in this matchup. Hes short so the only thing to hit him with is shl. If you dair you lose. You can't shine his shocks effectively. QAC ***** beyond belief. You couldnt even think about some fox way of planking because of his shocks. The best thing you could do is study his pikachu and think about your cp accordingly which will probably just end up being MK.