Diddy Kong
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Match-Up Discussion #7! Diddy Kong
- Thread starter Steel
- Start date
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ZHMT
Smash Lord
Diddy Kong can be a very tough and annoying matchup if not handled correctly. His bananas can stop you from approaching on the ground and he can camp with his peanut gun if you refuse to approach. Diddy Kong will most likely abuse bananas and try to get free smashes off of your mistakes by slipping. If Diddy throws bananas, shield them, and jump over with a fair. If he sets them down, simply avoid them or pick them up and use them yourself.
Remember, you cant slip on your own bananas, Diddy is bring items into play, use them against him.
Diddy does not have much to use against Marth, if Marth is at tipper range. Space yourself accordingly and you should be able to slowly tear through Diddy Kong. Diddy has an annoying jab combo, you be aware of that.
For edgeguarding, if Diddy uses his jetpack, you can hit him out of it with a fair, grab the ledge, and most likely take a stock.
Remember, you cant slip on your own bananas, Diddy is bring items into play, use them against him.
Diddy does not have much to use against Marth, if Marth is at tipper range. Space yourself accordingly and you should be able to slowly tear through Diddy Kong. Diddy has an annoying jab combo, you be aware of that.
For edgeguarding, if Diddy uses his jetpack, you can hit him out of it with a fair, grab the ledge, and most likely take a stock.
Diddy is a supremely underrated character who has the biggest potential to **** you silly.
Seems S2 knows where it's at. That's one of my most favourite videos.
While Diddy doesn't have the range Marth does. HEY GUYS, THIS IS WHAT MARTH NEEDS TO WIN, RANGE RANGE RANGE.
Diddy metagame is all about out strategising the opponent with zoning. To beat a Diddy you have to have a lot of GOOD Diddy match up experience. You need to be able to understand your opponent and get the bananas and ruin their rhythm. Yes, you vsing a Diddy is all about throwing off the momentum, you have nothing over a Diddy on the 'run' (so to speak) [refer to the above video].
Also you people need to learn to glide toss effectively. The best diddy player's glide toss AWESOMELY. If you want to really close the gap between banana usage you need to learn to glide toss as well.
ftilt is your friend. Shield breaker helps as well. Diddy will keep the distance close enough to throw a banana straight into you to trip so he can then dash attack to whatever you. You need to be very reliant on stopping that tactic from being used constantly.
Seems S2 knows where it's at. That's one of my most favourite videos.
While Diddy doesn't have the range Marth does. HEY GUYS, THIS IS WHAT MARTH NEEDS TO WIN, RANGE RANGE RANGE.
Diddy metagame is all about out strategising the opponent with zoning. To beat a Diddy you have to have a lot of GOOD Diddy match up experience. You need to be able to understand your opponent and get the bananas and ruin their rhythm. Yes, you vsing a Diddy is all about throwing off the momentum, you have nothing over a Diddy on the 'run' (so to speak) [refer to the above video].
Also you people need to learn to glide toss effectively. The best diddy player's glide toss AWESOMELY. If you want to really close the gap between banana usage you need to learn to glide toss as well.
ftilt is your friend. Shield breaker helps as well. Diddy will keep the distance close enough to throw a banana straight into you to trip so he can then dash attack to whatever you. You need to be very reliant on stopping that tactic from being used constantly.
timinator18
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2008
- Messages
- 3
honestly, ive mained diddy for months now. the only trouble i have is versus falco, and FAST charaters with disjointed hitboxes like toon link and marth. They can keep up with diddys speed, they have better range, and also alot of tiin links moves have higher priority than diddy's. Marth can be a threat because then diddy is off stage, marths long reach can hit you and your barrel pack will go flying and you fall to your death. Fear falco because of his reflector which negates ur banannas, and also, you cant duck under his lasers with diddy. When u try to recover, look out for his spike because when u charge ur pack, u stall in the air and he can spike you. plus on top of that, falco is just a dangerous opponent to face. i dont know why, but alot of diddy players have trouble dealing with him. its just the way it is.
grandmaster192
Smash Ace
If you can perfect shield well, you'll have an easier time against him. It puts his bananas in grab range, so stealing them becomes a bit easier.
I don't think it's a bad match up personaly.
I don't think it's a bad match up personaly.
Nibbity
Smash Journeyman
DIDDY! i'm pumped. Steel, that vid is incredible. Diddy seems like such an underdog, but he is really good when used properly.
Obviously bananas are one of the biggest threats you need to look out for. Why do you think Gwen Stefani made Hollaback girl? Simple. Diddy is a good character. Now down to business.
Emblem Lord's match up thread had a lot of good points in it. You may catch bananas and peanuts, so his long range arsenal could be nothing to you, and perhaps could be used to your advantage with proper training. With that, diddy's good combos, as seen in the video Steel displayed, are normally kicked off with his banana. In short, stay close, and watch out for bananas. You will hurt Diddy's game tremendously if you use those bananas against him.
I'm not sure about spiking at all....I haven't tested anything out, but edgeguarding is definitely a possibility in my mind.
EDIT: wow, 3 people posted as I was writing this.
Obviously bananas are one of the biggest threats you need to look out for. Why do you think Gwen Stefani made Hollaback girl? Simple. Diddy is a good character. Now down to business.
Emblem Lord's match up thread had a lot of good points in it. You may catch bananas and peanuts, so his long range arsenal could be nothing to you, and perhaps could be used to your advantage with proper training. With that, diddy's good combos, as seen in the video Steel displayed, are normally kicked off with his banana. In short, stay close, and watch out for bananas. You will hurt Diddy's game tremendously if you use those bananas against him.
I'm not sure about spiking at all....I haven't tested anything out, but edgeguarding is definitely a possibility in my mind.
EDIT: wow, 3 people posted as I was writing this.
grandmaster192
Smash Ace
How the heck does he ruin Marth's spacing game? No character can do that, not even MetaKnight.
Metaknight absolutely can, with his dtilt. Characters like Diddy and Snake can, through superior stage control capabilities.
grandmaster192
Smash Ace
Spacing is about the player. If someone is good at spacing, they're gonna space well against any character. Remember, it's not a character trait. He might can shut down an approach or a certain move or whatever. But good spacing is something that won't be shut down by any character.
3xSwords
Smash Lord
lol wrong thread son. We don't care about Falco vs Diddy.
Now I watched Ninjalink's diddy in action, I've begun to reconsider this matchup a lot, really a lot. Before I never really had any troubles beating the diddy I play, b/c he wasn't amazing. However, after comparing my friend to good diddy's I began to realize a key difference. Movement.
The amount of active movement by good diddy's vs my friend were on completely different scales. Diddy's are constantly moving, be it running or glide tossing or other. And when they aren't moving they are setting up banana peels or waiting to edge guard. I believe that for the most success in destroying Diddy's momentum is to gain the advantage in these pauses.
When somebody is on a "roll" he can't be stopped. Like after a guy makes 6 shots in a row, you know he is going to land that next shot (talking basketball). Same with Diddy when he has you in a banana lock and is dribbling his bananas right in front of your face constantly keeping you guessing, unless you can make the correct decision in that split second you're scrwd. In short its going to be difficult to stop him when he is on a streak.
That is why it is critical to stop him from ever reaching that point or take the initiative when he gives you a break. This starts from the beginning of the match. Against most diddy's running start at them from the get-go is extremely useful. This puts them on the defense first, and that is to your advantage. Not to say Diddy is bad at defense but his offense is a quicker route to connecting to a streak as such eliminate that option. Running right at them also prevents them from pulling out both bananas without risk. Against Diddy the difference between one banana and two is enormous.
One banana, no banana locks, less stage control, and less mindgames. With two much more is possible. Now that you have taken away his best option against him it becomes a simple spacing game which you should excel at, he can still do a lot with one banana but you gain more control when he has only one.
From there the air is pretty much your domain as you outrange his. But his aerials have pretty quick startup and decent power, like his fair and bair both very good aerials to watch out for. On the ground, once you eliminate one of his bananas you become on more equal standings. He still has a ridiculous no post lag dash attack, jabs that block your spot dodging, smashes that kill or setup edgeguarding if you slip, and about his tilts....
His dtilt is a decent poke but yours is better, ftilt same story, and never really see a diddy use utilt, what does it even look like? Popgun gives diddy an ability to camp but once again bananas determine how effectively he can do it.
Recovering may be a problem. Diddy has numerous spikes and projectiles that can cancel your second jump and screw up your recovery, so watch out. Although Marth can do the same. Fair beats the diddy "hump" if you are spacing correctly and you can hit him out of his barrels fairly easily or edgehog.
I would like to keep this matchup at a 6:4 Marth. Diddy is too be feared with both bananas but Marth has the capability to prevent him from having bananas come into play. Countering being one of Marth's stronger points allows Marth to also quickly change the momentum back to your side when Diddy hits a roll (not just the move counter but moves like his ftilt that prevent SH approaches). This helps you a lot and prevents Diddy from going on a 60% streak while taking none himself. After that Diddy becomes a fast character with quick attacks, however range pressuring allows you to have the advantage. Thus 6:4, because its not a huge advantage but you definitely have one.
Now I watched Ninjalink's diddy in action, I've begun to reconsider this matchup a lot, really a lot. Before I never really had any troubles beating the diddy I play, b/c he wasn't amazing. However, after comparing my friend to good diddy's I began to realize a key difference. Movement.
The amount of active movement by good diddy's vs my friend were on completely different scales. Diddy's are constantly moving, be it running or glide tossing or other. And when they aren't moving they are setting up banana peels or waiting to edge guard. I believe that for the most success in destroying Diddy's momentum is to gain the advantage in these pauses.
When somebody is on a "roll" he can't be stopped. Like after a guy makes 6 shots in a row, you know he is going to land that next shot (talking basketball). Same with Diddy when he has you in a banana lock and is dribbling his bananas right in front of your face constantly keeping you guessing, unless you can make the correct decision in that split second you're scrwd. In short its going to be difficult to stop him when he is on a streak.
That is why it is critical to stop him from ever reaching that point or take the initiative when he gives you a break. This starts from the beginning of the match. Against most diddy's running start at them from the get-go is extremely useful. This puts them on the defense first, and that is to your advantage. Not to say Diddy is bad at defense but his offense is a quicker route to connecting to a streak as such eliminate that option. Running right at them also prevents them from pulling out both bananas without risk. Against Diddy the difference between one banana and two is enormous.
One banana, no banana locks, less stage control, and less mindgames. With two much more is possible. Now that you have taken away his best option against him it becomes a simple spacing game which you should excel at, he can still do a lot with one banana but you gain more control when he has only one.
From there the air is pretty much your domain as you outrange his. But his aerials have pretty quick startup and decent power, like his fair and bair both very good aerials to watch out for. On the ground, once you eliminate one of his bananas you become on more equal standings. He still has a ridiculous no post lag dash attack, jabs that block your spot dodging, smashes that kill or setup edgeguarding if you slip, and about his tilts....
His dtilt is a decent poke but yours is better, ftilt same story, and never really see a diddy use utilt, what does it even look like? Popgun gives diddy an ability to camp but once again bananas determine how effectively he can do it.
Recovering may be a problem. Diddy has numerous spikes and projectiles that can cancel your second jump and screw up your recovery, so watch out. Although Marth can do the same. Fair beats the diddy "hump" if you are spacing correctly and you can hit him out of his barrels fairly easily or edgehog.
I would like to keep this matchup at a 6:4 Marth. Diddy is too be feared with both bananas but Marth has the capability to prevent him from having bananas come into play. Countering being one of Marth's stronger points allows Marth to also quickly change the momentum back to your side when Diddy hits a roll (not just the move counter but moves like his ftilt that prevent SH approaches). This helps you a lot and prevents Diddy from going on a 60% streak while taking none himself. After that Diddy becomes a fast character with quick attacks, however range pressuring allows you to have the advantage. Thus 6:4, because its not a huge advantage but you definitely have one.
3xSwords
Smash Lord
lol son 6 ppl posted while I wrote wall of text. Excuse this double post as my previous one is too ****in big.
Free to state how badly I made some of my points so that I can explain a little better.
You're absolutely right. I meant it more in the sense that Diddy can render a lot of Marth's spacing tools (dtilt, ftilt, etc) less than useful, as his bananas will limit Marth's close range approach/retreat options, while his glide tossing will move him to where he wants to be. Sorry about the confusion on that one, I probably should have been clearer.
Edit: 3xSwords, Diddy's utilt is more widely used that his upsmash, I think. Think of him like Dedede; his utilt is quicker, and has higher knockback than his smash. The animation's kind of like Dedede's too, actually.
NinjaLink
Smash Master
Hmm. Sounds good what ur saying. Just remember a smart diddy would expect u to run at him at the start. I remember when i fought M2K. I'm thinking 'Of course he thinks imma throw bananas. Lets try something different.' So on smashville first match i ran at him and grabbed him THEN threw out bananas mid fight. U shouldnt worry about diddy too much now. But sooner or later they'll master all the stuff i put out there and go at the speeds im goin at. I see one diddy player close to it but doesnt match the speed and pressure quite yet.
The most least move i use is ftilt but i still use it. I use utilt alot depending on matchup. The utilt is like him raising his arm up. Dtilt is a must.
Anyway u have the right idea as to what to do. Just remember the diddy can be thinking what ur thinking.
The most least move i use is ftilt but i still use it. I use utilt alot depending on matchup. The utilt is like him raising his arm up. Dtilt is a must.
Anyway u have the right idea as to what to do. Just remember the diddy can be thinking what ur thinking.
3xSwords
Smash Lord
Seriously? Maybe I'm confusing usmash with utilt, b/c usually smash attacks are stronger and I dont really know diddy.
Of course I understand your point where Diddy players are thinking about what we should do. I mean knowing about your counters is a must ain't it? But don't get me wrong we can be doing the same thing.
"No way how did you know I was going to throw the banana peel? I mean I wasn't holding it too suspiciously you know?"
Of course I understand your point where Diddy players are thinking about what we should do. I mean knowing about your counters is a must ain't it? But don't get me wrong we can be doing the same thing.
"No way how did you know I was going to throw the banana peel? I mean I wasn't holding it too suspiciously you know?"
NinjaLink
Smash Master
At the speed im moving imma be impressed if u can figure out what im doin cause even I dont kno what im doing until i do it. It comes naturally when i play. The fingers just has sex with the controller to be honest.
Nibbity
Smash Journeyman
NinjaLink
Smash Master
O Rly!!
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∫unk
Smash Master
Number 1 Advice against Diddies:
Pay attention to what the **** you're doing.
Let me elaborate. If you slip on a banana, please don't roll towards where the banana moved to. This may seem obvious, but the double trip happens so often, and it's because the player isn't thinking when he trips and automatically hits a direction.
Also, diddy will be throwing stuff at you. You should never get hit by a glidetoss if you're careful. SH ADing is your best friend. If you're near the edge the bananas don't even land which wastes a lot of his time trying to set up the banana's.
Basically, this match comes in two phases: when diddy has banana's out and when he doesn't. When he has them out he is dangerous and you need to be very attentive to what's going on and get rid of the bananas asap (best case scenario is diddy is knocked off you pick up one of their bananas and throw it at them as a edgeguard, at the very least it'll be gone). When he doesn't have anything out you need to be aggressive, but without being stupid. If you even get grabbed he gets time to set up banana's.
Pay attention to what the **** you're doing.
Let me elaborate. If you slip on a banana, please don't roll towards where the banana moved to. This may seem obvious, but the double trip happens so often, and it's because the player isn't thinking when he trips and automatically hits a direction.
Also, diddy will be throwing stuff at you. You should never get hit by a glidetoss if you're careful. SH ADing is your best friend. If you're near the edge the bananas don't even land which wastes a lot of his time trying to set up the banana's.
Basically, this match comes in two phases: when diddy has banana's out and when he doesn't. When he has them out he is dangerous and you need to be very attentive to what's going on and get rid of the bananas asap (best case scenario is diddy is knocked off you pick up one of their bananas and throw it at them as a edgeguard, at the very least it'll be gone). When he doesn't have anything out you need to be aggressive, but without being stupid. If you even get grabbed he gets time to set up banana's.
Nibbity
Smash Journeyman
oh yeah. if you get really tired or if youre just in a good mood, it happens. I spiked my friend and ended up 3 stocking him within 30 seconds, and after he left, I took a nap. It never happened again, and i'm a bad player lol.
EDIT: i'm actually going to make this post useful.
I think Diddy will most likely have at least one banana on the stage at all times, it's too easy to pull one out and get you to trip, and then do a dash attack, or grab...the options are very open for him. Thinking about it hurts, because two bananas are even more trouble for combos.
EDIT: i'm actually going to make this post useful.
I think Diddy will most likely have at least one banana on the stage at all times, it's too easy to pull one out and get you to trip, and then do a dash attack, or grab...the options are very open for him. Thinking about it hurts, because two bananas are even more trouble for combos.
3xSwords
Smash Lord
lol guess this is what you call a soul mate. Unfortunately you can't marry diddy ninjalink XP
and what r EC ppl doing up past 3?
Anyway keeping diddy to one banana is probably ideal, I mean just as long as you prevent the second banana or take control of one of the bananas, you'll be fine. Very rarely will there not be at least one banana on the field unless it recently disappeared, the diddy decided to play w/o bananas, or some other reason.
And Junk lol don't know how many times one of my friends does that. Once he rolled into same banana peel 5x. Then claimed bananas were broken and banned bananas (his wii) and as such my other friend has stopped maining diddy unfortunately.
NinjaLink
Smash Master
Well takin his bananas his one thing but if u were to fight me i can use bananas that arent mine against u......heeheeheeheeheeheheeeeeheeeeheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
3xSwords
Smash Lord
Oh **** no way!!!!!!!
Back to discussion: Ninjalink, being the best diddy, what options does Diddy usually have out of shield and how good is his standing grab range compared to running grab?
Back to discussion: Ninjalink, being the best diddy, what options does Diddy usually have out of shield and how good is his standing grab range compared to running grab?
NinjaLink
Smash Master
LMAO a talk show eh. Both are about the same, running grab i guess has a bit more range. Why am i explaining this in a marth forum? Glidetoss back while throwing forward.......he has alot to do outta shield actually.
¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯
Smash Legend
you are telling us this cuz ur the best diddy and u r helping us beat you in a way. carry on.
Rave925
Smash Apprentice
I have never seen something so horrifying in my life. I will never want to go against that ****ing diddy as long as i live
NinjaLink
Smash Master
^_^ Wheeee!
Pierce7d
Wise Hermit
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Being in shield means very little to Diddy, since he's usually going to be holding a Banana.
Eh, how to fight Diddy . . . localize him. Diddy thrives best on widespread movement. Figure out how to zone him into a corner, and keep him there.
Diddy has amazing recovery, as he is able to use his UpB after his SideB. However, you **** his priority in the air, so rather than focusing on maximizing damage, you should focus on maximizing getting him off the stage, THEN racking up damage. It's kinda backwards, but it makes sense to me, lol. Marth can do this very well since Dancing Blade is fast and has good knockback.
I really don't tilt against Diddy very much at all. In fact, I usually use mostly aerials in the match-up, due to the floor being a hotzone. Throwing Banana's up is a good way to temporarily remove them from the field.
Lots of Diddies like to Dash Attack to grab their Banana's. Use this as a good time to get off a free counter.
Also, don't get mindgamed into Rolling into Diddy's Fsmash, just because you don't want to roll back into the same banana. Pay attention . . . a lot. And as imporatant as the banana's are, Diddy is the real threat. Watch him, not the Banana's.
COUNTERPICK RAINBOW CRUISE!!! Try to avoid neutral stages. Though Marth normally thrives there, he's more flexible than Diddy, who ***** on FD and Smashville. Battlefield and Lylat are still alright . . . eh. Jungle Japes is a toss up. Diddy has the popgun to camp, but his banana game is obviously weaker there. This also goes for Brinstar, Norfair, and slightly Orpheon.
If it comes down to a straight me v. you fight on FD, you're best off focusing on Counter, Fair, Shield Breaker, and Dancing Blade. These moves will be your main players against Diddy, so learn to use them well on him.
Marth's reverse glide toss is broken btw. Practice Glidetossing in every direction (because forward and backward are different) and practice throwing in different directions while Glidetossing in different directions.
And NL, Imma practice your dribbling. You're too good, lol. I'd see you at the weekly, but they're outta commision for now. We gotta play again sometime, I never faced your Diddy, you sandbagging scum, lol.
Eh, how to fight Diddy . . . localize him. Diddy thrives best on widespread movement. Figure out how to zone him into a corner, and keep him there.
Diddy has amazing recovery, as he is able to use his UpB after his SideB. However, you **** his priority in the air, so rather than focusing on maximizing damage, you should focus on maximizing getting him off the stage, THEN racking up damage. It's kinda backwards, but it makes sense to me, lol. Marth can do this very well since Dancing Blade is fast and has good knockback.
I really don't tilt against Diddy very much at all. In fact, I usually use mostly aerials in the match-up, due to the floor being a hotzone. Throwing Banana's up is a good way to temporarily remove them from the field.
Lots of Diddies like to Dash Attack to grab their Banana's. Use this as a good time to get off a free counter.
Also, don't get mindgamed into Rolling into Diddy's Fsmash, just because you don't want to roll back into the same banana. Pay attention . . . a lot. And as imporatant as the banana's are, Diddy is the real threat. Watch him, not the Banana's.
COUNTERPICK RAINBOW CRUISE!!! Try to avoid neutral stages. Though Marth normally thrives there, he's more flexible than Diddy, who ***** on FD and Smashville. Battlefield and Lylat are still alright . . . eh. Jungle Japes is a toss up. Diddy has the popgun to camp, but his banana game is obviously weaker there. This also goes for Brinstar, Norfair, and slightly Orpheon.
If it comes down to a straight me v. you fight on FD, you're best off focusing on Counter, Fair, Shield Breaker, and Dancing Blade. These moves will be your main players against Diddy, so learn to use them well on him.
Marth's reverse glide toss is broken btw. Practice Glidetossing in every direction (because forward and backward are different) and practice throwing in different directions while Glidetossing in different directions.
And NL, Imma practice your dribbling. You're too good, lol. I'd see you at the weekly, but they're outta commision for now. We gotta play again sometime, I never faced your Diddy, you sandbagging scum, lol.
NinjaLink
Smash Master
BrawlerHarrison
Smash Apprentice
Diddy isn't too hard to learn, amirite?
But doesn't mean theres no skill, one skilled DK can air hump you to death.
Not pretty, nab his bananas.
But doesn't mean theres no skill, one skilled DK can air hump you to death.
Not pretty, nab his bananas.
Emblem Lord
The Legendary Lord
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grandmaster: Of course MK limits Marth's spacing options. Are you on drugs boy? lmao.
Advent Lee
Smash Ace
I completely agree with this. A smart Diddy will know what your thinking and just mix it up. However, you Marth players are lucky that most Diddy players run on "auto-pilot." LoLz. Diddy's Up tilt is like one of his best moves, its very fast and creates potential to combo/air chase.
And NinjaLink I do agree that your faster and put more pressure with Diddy than me, but give me a few more tournies and more of your advice and ill catch up soon enough. Your the best
The only reason I'm even in the Marth forums right now is because I was thinking of picking him up for fun ****** at tourny friendlies, when I saw the name of this thread and just couldnt resist. LoLz.
-advent-
**Havok**
Smash Lord
Hey guys I don't really contribute much to the marth threads but I want to get involved so I'll help with what I can.
One thing that I have a friend telling me that Diddy (maybe not so much a problem but a annoyance) has trouble with platforms. It can disrupt that crazy rhythm that Diddy can reach at times. Counter picking Yoshi's island and battlefield could help since his bananas could potentially get stuck on the platforms for a short period of time and perhaps enough time to F-air to get one.
One thing that I have a friend telling me that Diddy (maybe not so much a problem but a annoyance) has trouble with platforms. It can disrupt that crazy rhythm that Diddy can reach at times. Counter picking Yoshi's island and battlefield could help since his bananas could potentially get stuck on the platforms for a short period of time and perhaps enough time to F-air to get one.
Le_THieN
Smash Lord
I was wondering when this match-up analysis would hit these boards.
As much as I'd love to just keep everything I've learned as a Diddy main to myself, it's also kind of difficult for me to hold out on you guys because Marth incidentally happens to be my secondary character. So, before I change my mind, here are some obvious points...
Marth's Advantages:
• range
• superior aerial game
• capacity for low-percentage kills
• more diverse array of spacing techniques
Diddy's Advantages:
• projectile pressure
• superior stage control via bananas
• more intuitive and malleable combo ability
These are things that at this point seem to be universally acknowledged. As for the stuff in the fine print, I guess the banana rush is as good a place to start as any (sorry to the Diddy mains having to read another variation of this for a second or third time).
The most critical component to Diddy's quiet, left-field competitive success is his lack of notoriety. It has been more or less crucial in lending me and a handful of others that important element of surprise – the ability to just blindside and overwhelm with a character who has (arguably) the most versatile and sophisticated brand of item micromanagement in the entire franchise.
A quick scan of some of the reactions to NinjaLink's infamous Pikachu **** makes it apparent that a fair number of you guys are just now seeing or realizing Diddy's potential to shut down entire offenses and defenses with the sole aid of a goofy item. All it takes is just a little quirky ingenuity and a penchant to improvise on the fly.
So where exactly does that leave you guys?
Well, I really don't want to chalk it up to this (mostly because it sounds like a copout), but unless you've already been experimenting with Diddy, the only way you'll be able to overcome this tactic in the long run is through continued match-up exposure. Most of you will probably not really know what to do when you finally encounter that Diddy main who just completely runs all over you with a barrage of bananas. It's a significantly different from your run-of-the-mill projectile camping, because as long as Diddy keeps tossing them out, bananas will always have some sort of hindering presence on the stage - and Diddy doesn't have to stay put on one side of the screen to take advantage of this. This is the beating heart that comprises the essence of Diddy's banana game lies in the sheer versatility of the banana: the ability to throw, drop, group, and catch or pick it up in a variety of different ways. Sure, they will eventually disappear, but for the uninitiated, the 10-20 seconds that they are in play on average will often feel like a patience-grating eternity to those on the receiving end.
Luckily for you guys, there's good news. As far as I know, most people into the Brawl competitive scene aren't outright idiots, so it's most likely imminent that most of you do become firmly acclimated to this sort of flashy, aggressive, hyper-kinetic banana salvo. Even the most competent of Diddy mains occasionally fall into the glide-tossing autopilot trap, and it really just becomes a game of patience for Marth players to wait out the flurry of meaningless glide-tossing and dissemble this two-dimensional approach.
Conversely, it's also worth mentioning that while the banana rush is just now starting to catch on in popularity with the rest of the scene, Diddy players have had quite literally the last several months to refine its nuances. Many of us have already gotten our ***** whooped by succumbing to the pitfalls of autopilot and have since moved on to greener pastures by intelligently expanding and diversifying our rush-down game. You'll be hard-pressed to catch higher-level players filling up dead space up with empty movement that don't contribute to either trapping, spacing or mind-gaming setups - or basically just tech-flashing for the sake of it.
Also, more and more players are starting to introduce smart and deliberate play into their game in order to change up their approaches and keep opponents guessing. These might seem like minute or even trivial adjustments to Diddy's meta-game; but when you consider that Diddy's offense is heavily momentum-based, you will quickly start to appreciate the value of having the ability to reestablish and recapture the tempo and control of the match on your own terms. The all-out banana rush might be the most impressive-looking offense in the entire game, but the play-style that melds selective aggression with prudent and measured decision-making will, in my eyes, always emerge as the most effective.
Now, for some more move-set-specific poetic waxing:
• EDIT: Diddy's F-tilt (he quickly snaps forward and executes a Dhalsim-style double-fisted Yoga punch) apparently does not out-range anything in Marth's ground game, but still be wary not to get caught off guard by its deceptively long range. It inflicts 9-11% damage depending on move decay, and it will probably just outright kill many characters around 120% if it has been kept fresh. Fortunately, F-tilts either need to be buffered or require Diddy to already be moving forward, so you'll be able to see it telegraphed before it comes. If you anticipate it, you can proceed to punish accordingly.
• If you have the opportunity to safely intercept Diddy while he's recovering, take it. F-air out-prioritizes pretty much everything in Diddy's aerial arsenal, and chances are you may have already baited him into charging his barrels to get back on-stage, depending on how far away he is. F-air through that too, and he'll most likely fall to his doom. Be wary of the Diddy Hump though, as the tables can easily be turned on you. Also be conscious of exactly how many jumps Diddy has left - there's a good chance that you are being baited into edge-guarding him off-stage; and if this is the case, he'll most likely second-jump over you to either D-air spike or barrel-spike you.
• Once you're off-stage, a good Diddy player will very likely assault you with a torrent of projectiles varying in height and distance. Some will double-jump and make it rain peanuts; others will chunk bananas right at your or, more discreetly, jump and mix it up with RARed banana tosses and smash banana tosses as you approach closer to the ledge. The best will probably do both. The main objective for Diddy here is to limit your recovery options and possibly bait you into recovering a certain way - setting you up for an edge-hog or possibly even a spike of some sort. Having these projectiles actually connect is just icing on the cake.
• At 25%, Marth can F-throw Diddy off the stage and lead into a D-air spike before hit-stun ends. Make sure to hug the ledge in the case he manages to squeeze off a rocket barrel boost. Between 30-45% (where knock-back from the F-throw is still roughly equivalent), this becomes a free stock loss. Due to the slightly floatier nature of Diddy's physics compared to Falco, double F-throws are noticeably more difficult to pull off, especially since Diddy generally experiences slightly more knock-back. Make sure to readjust your spacing accordingly; and definitely don't F-throw at the very edge of any stage since you probably won't have enough room properly time a running D-air spike.
• If possible, always try and counter-pick with a stage that has platforms. Elevated planes limit Diddy's banana game and causes players to have to invest more time in the setup. It also helps that Marth has some really well-documented strengths on platform stages due to his mobility and aerial priority. Also, the more time they spend in the air Z-grabbing bananas stuck on platforms means that they are more vulnerable to your aerial approaches. Of course, if the Diddy you're playing is Z-grabbing in the first place, that means he also has the additional option of throwing a monkey wrench into your advances by immediately throwing the banana at you...so yeah, be careful.
• The Dancing Blade is and always will be your best friend. This match-up only serves to reinforce this. Players with bad DI should be punished accordingly with the multi-stab finisher. Players with better DI will probably create enough separation to DI out of that particular finisher all together, so just readjust by hitting them in the face with a tippered neutral-B finisher. Really, there shouldn't be any reason you shouldn't be abusing this.
That's everything I can think of at the moment. All in all, if both players have experience in this particular match-up, the odds will most likely end up favoring Marth. Tread this match-up carefully, though; the lot of us have tons of experience with these "slightly unfavorable" match-ups against the likes of Snake, MK, ROB, and Falco, so uphill battles are nothing new to us. Hope this has been helpful to everyone.
As much as I'd love to just keep everything I've learned as a Diddy main to myself, it's also kind of difficult for me to hold out on you guys because Marth incidentally happens to be my secondary character. So, before I change my mind, here are some obvious points...
Marth's Advantages:
• range
• superior aerial game
• capacity for low-percentage kills
• more diverse array of spacing techniques
Diddy's Advantages:
• projectile pressure
• superior stage control via bananas
• more intuitive and malleable combo ability
These are things that at this point seem to be universally acknowledged. As for the stuff in the fine print, I guess the banana rush is as good a place to start as any (sorry to the Diddy mains having to read another variation of this for a second or third time).
The most critical component to Diddy's quiet, left-field competitive success is his lack of notoriety. It has been more or less crucial in lending me and a handful of others that important element of surprise – the ability to just blindside and overwhelm with a character who has (arguably) the most versatile and sophisticated brand of item micromanagement in the entire franchise.
A quick scan of some of the reactions to NinjaLink's infamous Pikachu **** makes it apparent that a fair number of you guys are just now seeing or realizing Diddy's potential to shut down entire offenses and defenses with the sole aid of a goofy item. All it takes is just a little quirky ingenuity and a penchant to improvise on the fly.
So where exactly does that leave you guys?
Well, I really don't want to chalk it up to this (mostly because it sounds like a copout), but unless you've already been experimenting with Diddy, the only way you'll be able to overcome this tactic in the long run is through continued match-up exposure. Most of you will probably not really know what to do when you finally encounter that Diddy main who just completely runs all over you with a barrage of bananas. It's a significantly different from your run-of-the-mill projectile camping, because as long as Diddy keeps tossing them out, bananas will always have some sort of hindering presence on the stage - and Diddy doesn't have to stay put on one side of the screen to take advantage of this. This is the beating heart that comprises the essence of Diddy's banana game lies in the sheer versatility of the banana: the ability to throw, drop, group, and catch or pick it up in a variety of different ways. Sure, they will eventually disappear, but for the uninitiated, the 10-20 seconds that they are in play on average will often feel like a patience-grating eternity to those on the receiving end.
Luckily for you guys, there's good news. As far as I know, most people into the Brawl competitive scene aren't outright idiots, so it's most likely imminent that most of you do become firmly acclimated to this sort of flashy, aggressive, hyper-kinetic banana salvo. Even the most competent of Diddy mains occasionally fall into the glide-tossing autopilot trap, and it really just becomes a game of patience for Marth players to wait out the flurry of meaningless glide-tossing and dissemble this two-dimensional approach.
Conversely, it's also worth mentioning that while the banana rush is just now starting to catch on in popularity with the rest of the scene, Diddy players have had quite literally the last several months to refine its nuances. Many of us have already gotten our ***** whooped by succumbing to the pitfalls of autopilot and have since moved on to greener pastures by intelligently expanding and diversifying our rush-down game. You'll be hard-pressed to catch higher-level players filling up dead space up with empty movement that don't contribute to either trapping, spacing or mind-gaming setups - or basically just tech-flashing for the sake of it.
Also, more and more players are starting to introduce smart and deliberate play into their game in order to change up their approaches and keep opponents guessing. These might seem like minute or even trivial adjustments to Diddy's meta-game; but when you consider that Diddy's offense is heavily momentum-based, you will quickly start to appreciate the value of having the ability to reestablish and recapture the tempo and control of the match on your own terms. The all-out banana rush might be the most impressive-looking offense in the entire game, but the play-style that melds selective aggression with prudent and measured decision-making will, in my eyes, always emerge as the most effective.
Now, for some more move-set-specific poetic waxing:
• EDIT: Diddy's F-tilt (he quickly snaps forward and executes a Dhalsim-style double-fisted Yoga punch) apparently does not out-range anything in Marth's ground game, but still be wary not to get caught off guard by its deceptively long range. It inflicts 9-11% damage depending on move decay, and it will probably just outright kill many characters around 120% if it has been kept fresh. Fortunately, F-tilts either need to be buffered or require Diddy to already be moving forward, so you'll be able to see it telegraphed before it comes. If you anticipate it, you can proceed to punish accordingly.
• If you have the opportunity to safely intercept Diddy while he's recovering, take it. F-air out-prioritizes pretty much everything in Diddy's aerial arsenal, and chances are you may have already baited him into charging his barrels to get back on-stage, depending on how far away he is. F-air through that too, and he'll most likely fall to his doom. Be wary of the Diddy Hump though, as the tables can easily be turned on you. Also be conscious of exactly how many jumps Diddy has left - there's a good chance that you are being baited into edge-guarding him off-stage; and if this is the case, he'll most likely second-jump over you to either D-air spike or barrel-spike you.
• Once you're off-stage, a good Diddy player will very likely assault you with a torrent of projectiles varying in height and distance. Some will double-jump and make it rain peanuts; others will chunk bananas right at your or, more discreetly, jump and mix it up with RARed banana tosses and smash banana tosses as you approach closer to the ledge. The best will probably do both. The main objective for Diddy here is to limit your recovery options and possibly bait you into recovering a certain way - setting you up for an edge-hog or possibly even a spike of some sort. Having these projectiles actually connect is just icing on the cake.
• At 25%, Marth can F-throw Diddy off the stage and lead into a D-air spike before hit-stun ends. Make sure to hug the ledge in the case he manages to squeeze off a rocket barrel boost. Between 30-45% (where knock-back from the F-throw is still roughly equivalent), this becomes a free stock loss. Due to the slightly floatier nature of Diddy's physics compared to Falco, double F-throws are noticeably more difficult to pull off, especially since Diddy generally experiences slightly more knock-back. Make sure to readjust your spacing accordingly; and definitely don't F-throw at the very edge of any stage since you probably won't have enough room properly time a running D-air spike.
• If possible, always try and counter-pick with a stage that has platforms. Elevated planes limit Diddy's banana game and causes players to have to invest more time in the setup. It also helps that Marth has some really well-documented strengths on platform stages due to his mobility and aerial priority. Also, the more time they spend in the air Z-grabbing bananas stuck on platforms means that they are more vulnerable to your aerial approaches. Of course, if the Diddy you're playing is Z-grabbing in the first place, that means he also has the additional option of throwing a monkey wrench into your advances by immediately throwing the banana at you...so yeah, be careful.
• The Dancing Blade is and always will be your best friend. This match-up only serves to reinforce this. Players with bad DI should be punished accordingly with the multi-stab finisher. Players with better DI will probably create enough separation to DI out of that particular finisher all together, so just readjust by hitting them in the face with a tippered neutral-B finisher. Really, there shouldn't be any reason you shouldn't be abusing this.
That's everything I can think of at the moment. All in all, if both players have experience in this particular match-up, the odds will most likely end up favoring Marth. Tread this match-up carefully, though; the lot of us have tons of experience with these "slightly unfavorable" match-ups against the likes of Snake, MK, ROB, and Falco, so uphill battles are nothing new to us. Hope this has been helpful to everyone.
Emblem Lord
The Legendary Lord
- Joined
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Incorrect on one thing. Marth's tilts and F-smash have slightly more range then Diddy's f-tilt. I just tested it to confirm. Characters slide when doing tilts if they were walking before, which can give them a bit of a boost, but in terms of f-tilts normal range, Marth does outrange it.
Le_THieN
Smash Lord
I stand corrected. I tested before the write-up as well, but I was doing it by myself, so button inputs were kind of awkward. Either way, F-tilt has enough deceptive range to force the unsuspecting to reset spacing multiple times in a match.
Retroking2000
Smash Master
marth deosnt need to dash attack to pick them bananas up
Sh fairs seems to do it
plus it wards of diddy kong
Sh fairs seems to do it
plus it wards of diddy kong
bludhoundz
Smash Ace
Counterpick Battlefield.
One of Marth's best stages, and the platforms can mess up banana flow. Don't be fooled though.. Diddy can still play a strong banana game here, but it's just easier to handle than on Final Destination or Smashville.
One of Marth's best stages, and the platforms can mess up banana flow. Don't be fooled though.. Diddy can still play a strong banana game here, but it's just easier to handle than on Final Destination or Smashville.