Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[Divinokage]

yeah what?
marth's A is like good enough to stop falcon's nair.

Thats why you bait an aerial then you Nair.. was that so hard? =)

 

[fLoAtiN]

Thats why you bait an aerial then you Nair.. was that so hard? =)

i was just answering Sveet. i understand that mindgames play out but shouldn't that not be considered in the chart?

 

[JPOBS]

Thats why you bait an aerial then you Nair.. was that so hard? =)

ya but sveet is saying nair flat out beats marths aerials which is just wrong

 

[xbombr]

edit: I'm better off not getting involved in this one.

 

[KAOSTAR]

i was just answering Sveet. i understand that mindgames play out but shouldn't that not be considered in the chart?

That has solid data with it as well tho.

Falcon being fast enough to attack in between aerials means alot statistically.

If he wasnt fast enough then we are talking about somehow mindgaming the opponent to miss etc.

If its a viable strat it should be considered as part of the matchup.

DD camping/forms of patience, spacing from range attacks and things of that nature play a huge role in matchups.


Nair beats out marth trying to aerial. Its always about spacing in the air, marth has big enough hitboxes to get in falcons ***. Just gotta space and protect yourself.

 

[Divinokage]

i was just answering Sveet. i understand that mindgames play out but shouldn't that not be considered in the chart?

Then how the hell do you beat your opponent, you can't just keep approaching like an idiot and spam moves obviously.. The chart is based on 2 characters with the highest possible level of play which means everything.

 

[t3h Icy]

this is some good falcon discussion.

It's the same thing that happened with Jigglypuff. It's as if everyone discussing has ADD and whenever they begin to discuss anything about a character, they turn to the side and OMFG A CAT, and then they forget which character we're supposed to be discussing.

 

[Alphicans]

Kage, mindgames deal with the player not the character. A characters options are factor to what kind of baiting can be done, which would be an important factor, but simple, generic baits should not be considered in a match-up.

 

[fLoAtiN]

That has solid data with it as well tho.

Falcon being fast enough to attack in between aerials means alot statistically.

If he wasnt fast enough then we are talking about somehow mindgaming the opponent to miss etc.

If its a viable strat it should be considered as part of the matchup.

DD camping/forms of patience, spacing from range attacks and things of that nature play a huge role in matchups.


Nair beats out marth trying to aerial. Its always about spacing in the air, marth has big enough hitboxes to get in falcons ***. Just gotta space and protect yourself.

ok that makes sense. thanks for clearing that up for me.

Then how the hell do you beat your opponent, you can't just keep approaching like an idiot and spam moves obviously.. The chart is based on 2 characters with the highest possible level of play which means everything.

ok sorry lol. i just didn't know that mindgames were part of it. that's why i thought falcon marth is 50-50 because both don't want to approach.

 

[x After Dawn x]

ok i have LOTS to say about falcon here:

falcon sucks

 

[Devil Ray]

falcon beats marth yo. but even if the matchup is relatively even, this brings up another point about the chart. we need to weigh certain matchups more than others.

for example, if i'm a marth player, i'd be scared of the sheer popularity of captain falcon users. i'd probably even pick a 2ndary just in case. this happens a lot. the chart is objective, but there's got to be a way to make a weighted chart for matchup frequency.

another point: sheik's matchups are a little skewed considering she has 2 listed disadvantaged ones in the top 5. if fox has no disadvantaged top/high tier matchups, that matters more in tourny use. especially if sheik "apparently" loses to jiggs and fox

 

[Alphicans]

^truth. The values for every match-up should go down in relation to tier position.

 

[TheManaLord]

some people don't know what a matchup chart is. and the rest don't even know how one should be formatted.

 

[john!]

And then there's TheManaLord, shining above all the rest as a beacon of wisdom and intelligence.

 

[KAOSTAR]

It's the same thing that happened with Jigglypuff. It's as if everyone discussing has ADD and whenever they begin to discuss anything about a character, they turn to the side and OMFG A CAT, and then they forget which character we're supposed to be discussing.

Id just like to point this out:

this didnt happen during the M2 zelda debate.

just sayin, everyone and they momma was gettin on it-

Spoiler

Except the zelda players LMAO

I liked TML better while intoxicated lol

 

[x After Dawn x]

some people don't know what a matchup chart is. and the rest don't even know how one should be formatted.

And then there's TheManaLord, shining above all the rest as a beacon of wisdom and intelligence.

haha, golden.

falcon beats marth yo. but even if the matchup is relatively even, this brings up another point about the chart. we need to weigh certain matchups more than others.

for example, if i'm a marth player, i'd be scared of the sheer popularity of captain falcon users. i'd probably even pick a 2ndary just in case. this happens a lot. the chart is objective, but there's got to be a way to make a weighted chart for matchup frequency.

another point: sheik's matchups are a little skewed considering she has 2 listed disadvantaged ones in the top 5. if fox has no disadvantaged top/high tier matchups, that matters more in tourny use. especially if sheik "apparently" loses to jiggs and fox

agreed.

 

[TheManaLord]

Seriously, guys. He was talking about skewing the matchups based on frequency of tournament use. That's pretty ****ing stupid.


and LOL I smashboards inebriated so much. Haven't as much lately because school has been absurd with the workload. So I've just been raging.

 

[Mahone]

some people don't know what a matchup chart is. and the rest don't even know how one should be formatted.

And then there's TheManaLord, shining above all the rest as a beacon of wisdom and intelligence.

Wow, how do you get owned that hard. john! If i ever meet you in real life imma give u a dollar lolol ****

 

[idea]

the matchup weight thing makes sense, but i wouldn't put that in this chart. either make a second chart (and a new thread?) or let people do that part in their heads.

different regions have different character trends anyway, there'd be so much disagreement over how much to weight things.

 

[Divinokage]

That would mean Ganon is Top Tier in Canada because of me lol.

 

[TheManaLord]

Yeah, it's sort of impossible and fluctuates a lot.

The match-up chart is supposed to represent some real information.

 

[xbombr]

That would mean Ganon is Top Tier in Canada because of me lol.

Why stop with Canada?

 

[Alphicans]

Not tournament frequency, just tier placement >_>.

 

[TheManaLord]

Not tournament frequency, just tier placement >_>.

for example, if i'm a marth player, i'd be scared of the sheer popularity of captain falcon users. i'd probably even pick a 2ndary just in case. this happens a lot. the chart is objective, but there's got to be a way to make a weighted chart for matchup frequency.

lmao did you read his post or just agree with him for no reason

 

[Devil Ray]

it could be both, it really doesn't matter. i used falcon as an example cuz he's not that high on the tier list, but he outplaces sheiks and marths all the time. there are soooooooo many falcon players. either way, the chart should have some kind of weighted version. i mean, it's nice that sheik ***** roy....but who gives a ****?

 

[Roneblaster]

ok i just want to bring back sveet's statement that falcons nair > marth.

lol

good 1 sveet, you almost fooled NO-ONE.

also, why is Falcon >>> Link? I go back to edgeguarding. Link as a character is unedgeguardable, especially when the character doing the guarding sucks at it. And link can just stand on the edge and up-b, unless you get that extremely janky hitbox, you cant tech it.

 

[otg]

his onstage combos are limited to basically fair->fsmash and otherwise he has to techchase or force falcon off the stage to win.

While I'm not disagreeing that Falcon > Marth or that Marth's tech chase and edgeguard game are his strong point in the matchup, do you honestly believe that Marth's onstage combo game is limited to Fair -> fsmash?

Wait why can't Marth CC grab the Nair? It's piss weak and Sheik can do it really easily and I doubt the slight weight disparity makes that huge of a difference for such a weak move.

Also, is tech chasing Falcon hard? Somewhat serious question.

Yeah Marth CC grab the nair pretty free. Personally I think the matchup is even, but wtf do I know?

 

[Roneblaster]

otg whats ur input on falcon v doc? i think its Falcon >/= Doc, its just so gay. Falcon should probably win but its annoying and not fun.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Falcon should probably win but its annoying and not fun.

Why the hell does fun matter in a matchup?

edit: Doc isn't fun for anyone.

 

[Roneblaster]

it has nothing to do with who is >, i was just saying.

let me better rephrase that, its hard. you have to work to do basic **** because doc is so small, and has pills, amongst other reasons.

 

[Alphicans]

lmao did you read his post or just agree with him for no reason

He said tournament frequency which makes no sense. I am saying base match-up values off of the tier list.

 

[otg]

I think it's Falcon > Doc. I personally love the matchup and tend to do well in it, but the general consensus amongst the Doc's is that it's Falcon advantage. He's got range, is way faster then you, cuts through pills and has the knee which combos into itself... I mean **** his whole moveset combos into knee, and knee kills Doc fast. I think the thing that salvages the matchup for Doc is his smaller size, high priority on Dair/bair/utilt and ftilt which tend to beat or trade with Falcon's aerials (I also want to say that Doc can CC grab falcon's nair, not 100% tho), his CG, stupid easy combos and ******** edgeguarding on Falcon.

I don't think many Falcon's know the matchup that well, so you'll see Shroomed or HMW beat Scar or SS every now and then, but in general I think Falcon's got this one.

 

[Roneblaster]

thats basically what i was thinking, but i dont actually play doc.

all i know is that i love playing falcon vs mewtwo, because i can do all those ***** comboes that you cant finish on doc cause he is too small and floaty.

 

[otg]

m2 is way floatier then Doc, I don't know what you're smoking.... pass it on the right tho.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

falcon beats marth yo. but even if the matchup is relatively even, this brings up another point about the chart. we need to weigh certain matchups more than others.

for example, if i'm a marth player, i'd be scared of the sheer popularity of captain falcon users. i'd probably even pick a 2ndary just in case. this happens a lot. the chart is objective, but there's got to be a way to make a weighted chart for matchup frequency.

another point: sheik's matchups are a little skewed considering she has 2 listed disadvantaged ones in the top 5. if fox has no disadvantaged top/high tier matchups, that matters more in tourny use. especially if sheik "apparently" loses to jiggs and fox

maybe cross reference my chart?

 

[Animal]

you dont actually think theres a possilbillty of falcon being higher than marth on the tier list right? nah that will never happen.....right?

 

[VGmasta]

Falcon has everything on Doc except a chaingrab and edgeguarding. Falcon's entire moveset lead to some g@y combo. Even if Doc is too small to finish a combo with the knee, you don't even have to do anything but up-air. Doc is completely helpless in the air above Falcon because Doc will just ride the wheel of up-airs all the wayy out of the stage.

Falcon's air game beats Doc. Doc best aerial is probably the b-air, which (like OTG said) doesn't always beat Falcon's aerials. Falcon's n-air eats right through the pills. And Doc CAN'T grab (or crouch-cancel grab) spaced n-airs from Falcon.

Capfal is completely mobile. He's so much faster than doc that approach with d.air is completely viable, because doc REALLY cant defend himself against it.

Yeah, if doc gets a grab on capfal, that can lead to death by chaingrabbing and tech chasing, but you have to grab capfal first. That is so hard to do against a good capfal because again, he is not going to stand still. You have NOTHING to realistally make him stay in place.

So yea, it's definitely Doc's chaingrab and edgeguarding that keeps the match up from being Falcon>>Doc.

I vote Falcon>Doc.

 

[otg]

I dunno Ricky, it's hard to gauge Dogy's opinion because that is his personal worst matchup and as a result he's super biased. Like I am towards falco (tho I'm still convinced it's doc's worst).

 

[TresChikon]

let me better rephrase that, its hard. you have to work to do basic ****.

isn't that true of ALL his match-ups?

 

[VGmasta]

I dunno Ricky, it's hard to gauge Dogy's opinion because that is his personal worst matchup and as a result he's super biased. Like I am towards falco (tho I'm still convinced it's doc's worst).

Yeah, but everything he said in that quote was true about Falcon. He outruns, outranges, and even outcombos Doc. The only thing in that original quote I didn't agree with was when he said Falcon is harder for Doc than Sheik. But I cut that part out. Sheik's definitely worst than Falcon for Doc.