Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[t3h Icy]

Jigglypuff >> DK
Jigglypuff > Doc
Jigglypuff > Falcon

Anything else or anyone disagree?

 

[Mahone]

Get real Mr.Ad Hominem arguement

 

[KAOSTAR]

ya this isnt world of warcraft people if you complain about stuff its not gonna get changed

so just man up and use all the tools available to you and win

instead of complaining and waiting for the next melee patch

w.o.w.
.

 

[idea]

i'd just like to say that i love all the drama surrounding jigglypuff =3

also she beats falcon +1 (in every way). and maybe peach +1 (bairs>peach) but if so then not as badly as falcon. and maybe +1 vs. marth (all he can do is space moves and jiggs does that better, plus crouching).

lol i can back those up more, but this looks like one of those threads where things move really fast and everyone yells at each other.

edit: hi camilo!

 

[weon - X]

ya this isnt world of warcraft people if you complain about stuff its not gonna get changed

so just man up and use all the tools available to you and win

instead of complaining and waiting for the next melee patch

lol you play wow

 

[t3h Icy]

Updated:
Jigglypuff >> DK
Jigglypuff > Doc
Jigglypuff > Falcon

Match-ups in brackets are from previous discussions.

Falcon << Sheik
Falcon < Falco
Falcon < Fox
Falcon < Jigglypuff
Falcon = Ice Climbers
Falcon = Marth
Falcon = Peach
Falcon = Pikachu
Falcon > DK
Falcon > Doc
Falcon > Ganondorf
Falcon > Luigi
Falcon > Mario
Falcon > Samus
Falcon >> Mr.G&W
Falcon >> Roy
Falcon >> Yoshi
Falcon >> Young Link
Falcon >> Zelda
Falcon >>> Bowser
Falcon >>> Kirby (Falcon >> Kirby)
Falcon >>> Link (Falcon >> Link)
Falcon >>> Mewtwo
Falcon >>> Ness
Falcon >>> Pichu

 

[ChivalRuse]

Falcon > Pikachu.

Falcon can dthrow CG Pikachu until the percents when uthrow starts comboing into nair and uair. Once Pikachu is sent above Falcon, he has to work just to get back on the ground in a neutral position, as Falcon's uairs and grabs/raptor boosts from below are stupidly good at keeping on the pressure and preventing Pikachu from regaining his footing. Pikachu can only CG Falcon on FD and has no good follow-ups from an uthrow until high percents when uthrow -> usmash is guaranteed. Falcon's weight significantly reduces Pikachu's ability to score KO's via any sort of offstage situation. Pikachu can't depend on gimps and has to take Falcon to uncomfortably high percents before nairs and bairs can even hope to knock Falcon offstage for an edgeguard. Accumulating damage is in itself no small task. Uairs do piddly damage and have little follow-up value. Nairs are risky to approach with, as Falcon's dash dancing is a great tool for dealing with any sort of predictable frontal assault. Upsmash still requires Falcon to be a bit above 100% and is by no means easy to set up. It's punishable if dodged or blocked. On the other hand, dthrow -> knee is reliable, painless, and effective.

 

[Alphicans]

Does the cg on pika actually work? I've tried it and it never happens . Also I think uair has plenty of follow up value, as well as controlling the match value. I have no opinion on the match-up my self, but I thought I'd throw that in there.

 

[ChivalRuse]

If Pikachu DI's away Falcon can regrab. If any other DI, Falcon should be able to SH nair -> regrab.

 

[Magus420]

Does the cg on pika actually work?

No it does not. You definitely can't n-air regrab either. Techchase only when they DI correctly. Pika goes way too low when they do.

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

sure its at least >>pichu. hes just a really crappy pikachu, but >>> i thought the chaingrab was still legit between those two.
also how is link >>> but ylink is >>? ylinks usually matchup difference (speed) is totally wasted on falcon. unless its the high boomerang... but that would be a terrible reason for an additional >

 

[Blistering Speed]

No-one addressed my Jiggs>Marth post and yet we seem to have just left the matchup as Marth=Jiggs. This chart won't be accurate if you don't actually pay attention to contributions.

To be OT, Falco>>Falcon.

Edit:

Wow, really? No-one's mentioned Marth vs Jiggs yet. That matchup is NOT even. Lets put it simply.

At a neutral standpoint, Marth has ways to keep Puff out, sure, as long as he's very precise with F Air's and jabs, but if he hits Puff, who cares, it's the one solitary hit. Puff on the other hand, due to B Air and aerial mobility doesn't have to commit like Marth does and due to the lower punishment, can afford more mistakes. On the other hand, if Puff gets a hit it's likely death, either from Jiggs getting Marth off stage and general moveset ****** his horizontally limited recovery/edgehog resting or getting a rest off.

Assuming the point that Marth gets Jiggs to kill percent anyway, there's nothing safe to rely on. With others, Marth compensates for this with his excellent edgeguarding, but this is obsolete against Jiggs. So Marth is now forced to commit to a dangerous move like F Smash, something which if missed (very easy with Puff's mobility) or shielded means aforestated ridiculously costly punishment.

It's as simple as that, Jiggs punishes and kills far easier in the matchup. It becomes a spacing war between Puff's B Air and a few or Marth's low cooldown range moves, but the Marth can afford far far less mistakes.

 

[idea]

quote yourself so people don't need to go looking for it.

 

[xbombr]

I don't see how Jigglypuff is anything less than even with Fox...

The vertical kill moves are great and everything but you're reliant on a relatively high % jab or them screwing up their spacing and getting over you for long enough to utilize them. She can essentially duck your laser game.

Utilt, Uthrow, UAir, and Pound all easily combo into rest. Her gimp game is perfect for the long charge up on his recovery. With good prediction skills it's not that hard to hit them out of a phantasm, even if they don't die, Fox falls below the stage and Jiggs uses 1 extra jump to go down and hit him out of his FireFox, this can essentially be done from any % that Fox can be thrown or hit offstage.

Jigg's BAir > Fox's approaching moveset. Fox has a terrible grab game on her as well. It's hard to grab Jiggs and Uthrow is somewhat useless. Fthrow and Bthrow don't set up for anything. Dthrow is alright, but the risk you take by grabbing and the rare chance of success don't really make it worth it.

Fox has to movement camp -> punish, make use of the occasional approach opportunity, and use a laser game that Jiggs can just duck under or float around over. The lasers don't even stun so she can still harass you with BAirs.

Fox obviously has a great punishment game vs. Jiggs though and that is definitely worth mentioning. Fox is also probably among the easiest characters to kill Jiggs with and is well suited for camping her. He moves around fast enough to force the misspacings he needs to use his air/ground games. Jiggs falls from shine and has crappy techs so that's really good too. Fox also has one of, if not, the best rest punishes in the game. He's really good at making rest unsafe as long as he doesn't fall into her stupid crap and it's actually a risk to rest him. Him dying out of the side of the screen allows him to even up the score even if she did kill him, so resting isn't necessarily a great option to take all the time since if Jiggs has enough damage on her it just trades stocks with good DI.

Everything I said could have been wrong, but I play with a Jiggs on a regular basis and use Fox a lot since Sheik is pretty bad vs. Jiggs and this is how I see it.

Jigglypuff = Fox?

 

[Blistering Speed]

K, I've quoted the original post.

 

[Alphicans]

sure its at least >>pichu. hes just a really crappy pikachu, but >>> i thought the chaingrab was still legit between those two.
also how is link >>> but ylink is >>? ylinks usually matchup difference (speed) is totally wasted on falcon. unless its the high boomerang... but that would be a terrible reason for an additional >

We're looking at comparing some combo ability vs some legit stage control. Y.links projectiles function way better due to his character build. Y.link is just a straight up better character, and the only match-up I can see link being better at is ness, and maybe some other low/bottom tier match-ups.

 

[TheManaLord]

jiggs was skipped over more or less, still a lot of matchups disputed and didn't tons of people just agree on jiggs = fox?

 

[t3h Icy]

Well nobody is discussing Jigglypuff so I moved on.

Discuss Jigglypuff/Marth, Jigglypuff/Fox then while we also do Falcon.

 

[idea]

Wow, really? No-one's mentioned Marth vs Jiggs yet. That matchup is NOT even. Lets put it simply.

At a neutral standpoint, Marth has ways to keep Puff out, sure, as long as he's very precise with F Air's and jabs, but if he hits Puff, who cares, it's the one solitary hit. Puff on the other hand, due to B Air and aerial mobility doesn't have to commit like Marth does and due to the lower punishment, can afford more mistakes. On the other hand, if Puff gets a hit it's likely death, either from Jiggs getting Marth off stage and general moveset ****** his horizontally limited recovery/edgehog resting or getting a rest off.

Assuming the point that Marth gets Jiggs to kill percent anyway, there's nothing safe to rely on. With others, Marth compensates for this with his excellent edgeguarding, but this is obsolete against Jiggs. So Marth is now forced to commit to a dangerous move like F Smash, something which if missed (very easy with Puff's mobility) or shielded means aforestated ridiculously costly punishment.

It's as simple as that, Jiggs punishes and kills far easier in the matchup. It becomes a spacing war between Puff's B Air and a few or Marth's low cooldown range moves, but the Marth can afford far far less mistakes.

agreed pretty much. it's also worth mentioning that a lot of characters have trouble edgeguarding marth, but jiggs is pretty comfortable with it. i mean, from the jiggs' perspective it's hard to get used to, but you basically just jump really far down and fair, or bair him early enough. if he goes high it's harder but you can still hit him inbetween side-b's or get a lucky hit in somewhere. so yeah, she has that too.

and she can crouch under his grabs most of the time. it's awkward for the marth to grab her successfully.

marth doesn't have any specific advantages but he does have a sword. and he is just...overall good. he has a good movement game, he can catch jiggs with wave-fsmashes as she floats back, and all his aerials come out faster. if this is an even matchup it's because marth's "stats" are better. but it seems like there's more reason to think it's +1 in favour of jiggs.

as for fox. that is not even. definitely not. but i'm not entirely sure how to explain why not =/ so maybe one of the better jiggs mains can help with that. he just kind of kills her really easily. you have to camp the hell out of him and he just gets some bairs and upthrow upairs and you die. upthrow rest feels like it brings the matchup closer to even rather than putting jiggs into the advantage.

on the other hand i'm told i don't play that matchup gay enough =P

 

[x After Dawn x]

falco has no bad matchups? LOL

so much ****ing bias

 

[VGmasta]

I don't know much about the Marth vs Jiggs matchup. I don't use/like either character. But it sounds like Marth has it a bit worse as far as Blistering Speed puts it. But I can't really contribute anything about Marth vs Jiggs without at least having minor experience/knowledge of the matchup.

As for Falcon:
Falcon > Doc
Falcon > Ganon

 

[xbombr]

as for fox. that is not even. definitely not. but i'm not entirely sure how to explain why not =/ so maybe one of the better jiggs mains can help with that. he just kind of kills her really easily. you have to camp the hell out of him and he just gets some bairs and upthrow upairs and you die. upthrow rest feels like it brings the matchup closer to even rather than putting jiggs into the advantage.

on the other hand i'm told i don't play that matchup gay enough =P

Idk how you're getting Uthrow UAir'd to the point where it's notable and it's certainly not happening in killing %'s. I find it almost impossible to get the UAir at any % with almost any DI. Getting the uthrow is hard enough, let alone actually following up on it.

Jigglypuff needs a grab, uptilt, or upair to kill Fox instantly. If she can get him off the stage with BAirs, then gimping him is either extremely or somewhat easy depending on his height above the stage.

I agree that Fox can kill her easily, but it's just as easy to kill Fox from Jigglypuff's standpoint. This is a huge part of why I think it's even.

 

[N64]

Falcon > Pikachu.

Falcon can dthrow CG Pikachu until the percents when uthrow starts comboing into nair and uair.

If pikachu DIs down and away, falcon cannot regrab. Best he can do is techchase (which still kinda works since pika's tech is kinda slow, but not nearly as reliable as regrab would be).

Once Pikachu is sent above Falcon, he has to work just to get back on the ground in a neutral position, as Falcon's uairs and grabs/raptor boosts from below are stupidly good at keeping on the pressure and preventing Pikachu from regaining his footing.

DI away, quickattack down to ledge, quick attack down to stage (spaced so that he lands with minimal lag), dair, fastfall dair, etc. Dair will at least trade with uair, and pika will then be off the stage (or at least closer to the edge) and be able to sweetspot the edge with a quickattack. It's harder to get down against falcon than some other chars, but it's not horrible. Uair doesn't kill till high, and it's relatively easy to see if falcon's going to try to intercept you as you come down (as opposed to dash dance positioning for a grab) and you can react accordingly.

Pikachu can only CG Falcon on FD and has no good follow-ups from an uthrow until high percents when uthrow -> usmash is guaranteed.

CG doesn't really matter much in the matchup. Uthrow usmash starts working at like 30% i think? Probably earlier. In fact, it's better if he's lower damage because the followups last longer and are overall more damaging.

Falcon's weight significantly reduces Pikachu's ability to score KO's via any sort of offstage situation. Pikachu can't depend on gimps and has to take Falcon to uncomfortably high percents before nairs and bairs can even hope to knock Falcon offstage for an edgeguard. Accumulating damage is in itself no small task. Uairs do piddly damage and have little follow-up value.

I'm not sure where you're getting this. Falcon has trouble whenever he's in the air above pikachu, regardless of his weight. Uair does do crap damage, but it hardly has 'little followup value'. It can lead into itself for a while, uair spikes, nair, dair, bair, usmash, regrab, and can force techs on platforms (meaning pika get a regrab or usmash out of sheild), each depending on percentage and DI. This makes accumulating damage not that bad, as a uair or grab easily leads to at least 30%. And often, falcons options to regain control of the situation are to DI offstage risking gimp/edgeguard followups or DI towards the center of the stage and risk techchases and aerial chases. He doesn't often die from one grab/uair, but from 2-3 isn't uncommon. And once falcon IS offstage, pika ***** him.

Nairs are risky to approach with, as Falcon's dash dancing is a great tool for dealing with any sort of predictable frontal assault. Upsmash still requires Falcon to be a bit above 100% and is by no means easy to set up. It's punishable if dodged or blocked. On the other hand, dthrow -> knee is reliable, painless, and effective.

Falcon's dashdance is pretty nice against pika's poor approach options, i agree. Not that pika can't get around it, it's just kinda tough/risky. Usmash kills on Falcon are rare as well, but pika's often not looking to kill with a usmash, it's mainly useful for juggling and accumulating damage in this matchup, as around 100% a nair/dair/bair or uair->nair/dair/bair will set up edgeguaring options. Dthrow knee is pretty nice, but isn't guarenteed until highish. Dthrow->low uair->knee ***** though >_>.

What falcon does have in the matchup is a fantastic dash dance, good punishes, ability to techchase well, and knee killing pika super early. Uair is also alright for making being above falcon kinda bothersome, i'll agree to an extent. Falcon v. pika turns a lot into back and forth swings. In the matchup, they both **** eachother with punishes, so getting setups is important. Falcon overall probably does a slightly better job of getting these setups, and pika does a slightly better job of getting out of the punishes safely, so it about evens out.

I think the matchup these days is very very slight advantage falcon, but not enough by this chart for it to be a >.

 

[Roneblaster]

Pika = Falcon

Falcon >/= Ganon
falcon is just so much faster than ganon, but ganon can get dem hits and its over, because ganon can go, "lollolololol which move do i want to edgeguard this ****ty character with?" then its done.

Puff > maybe even >> Falcon
Falcons punishment game is pretty-null in this match-up because jiggs doesnt want to be on the ground to begin with. Puff just doesnt fall victim to anything falcon does well, get punished of get comboed. This match-up sucks, Falcon can atleast punish the **** out of spacies.

Falco > Falcon
Falcon has to be doing soooo many things right/perfectly for this match up to be anything better than >.

Fox > Falcon
Still gay, both spacies can edguard falcon so ezzzz. Falcon has his speed going for him in most matchups, but fox is fast too AND fox's moveset > falcons moveset. (except for forward air)

Marth => Falcon
Little bit of bias here, but seriously though, Marth can combo falcon just as well as falcon can combo Marth, AND Marth has toooooooooooo easy of a time edgeguarding and gimping falcon. (Had the arrow facing the wrong way, switched the names around and forgot to switch the arrow too)

Falcon < Falcon
Falcon loses every match-up (<3 Scar)

 

[Lovage]

i can't wait for the marth vs. falcon debate

(marth > falcon btw)

 

[TheManaLord]

It's strictly even.

Based on this charts format at least.

 

[Roneblaster]

i agree with lovage.

i think its awfully close, its either 55-45 or 60-40.

 

[fLoAtiN]

i'm tempted to say marth > falcon.
i don't even see how falcon can approach marth.
everytime i do nair, uair, bair, fair marth just slaps me with his fair.
trying to approach with dair is even more risky.
if anything hits though, --> ****.

but now that i think of it, i don't really see how marth can approach falcon either.
maybe a wall of fairs while slowly advancing. but that can get slightly easy to predict..so maybe risky..
is it one of those whoever-approaches-loses battles?

 

[Alphicans]

It's a spacing based match-up with huge rewards if you can manage to get in. Even sounds about right.

 

[Roneblaster]

youre ignoring edgeguarding.

which is Marth >>>>>>>>>>> Falcon

 

[Divinokage]

It's definitely Falcon > Ganon

Well the off stage game plan for both characters are pretty much exactly the same, except Falcon might have a bit more air control opportunities when he recovers high lol.

On stage, well I mean I think in general Falcon has easier combos on Ganon than the other way around. I know that Ganon can space moves into Falcon if he tries to approach but once Falcon lands a grab on Ganon it can hurt a lot. Honestly, there's not much to say about the matchup.. It's my favorite matchup because there's so much epic **** happening. =P

Due to Falcon being faster, he can bait moves easier than Ganon can. That's pretty much it.

 

[Alphicans]

youre ignoring edgeguarding.

which is Marth >>>>>>>>>>> Falcon

Hmm good point lol. I think on stage falcon ***** just a bit harder though. But with falcon's ****ty recovery and marth's excellent edgegaurding it's probably marth>falcon

 

[Roneblaster]

kage, you shut that mouth. Its not like you're good with either of those characters.

 

[TheManaLord]

Falcon is actually good against edgeguarding marth as well. It's not that hard, you can easily gimp him far out or low and just grab ledge to make him get on stage. Marth doesn't have solid answers for falcon recovering high onto stage. It's even with both character ****** eachother.

 

[Roneblaster]

TML, you know id father you're children, but you're crazy.

Marth can just full-Hop Fair/bair and send falcon back off the stage, preventing another attempt at a high recovery, and at a certain point falcon can recover high if he wants, because hes just going to eat an f-smash the second he lands.

im going to play medal of honor: allied assault. ill resume my efforts to move falcon down the tier-list later.

 

[idea]

Idk how you're getting Uthrow UAir'd to the point where it's notable and it's certainly not happening in killing %'s. I find it almost impossible to get the UAir at any % with almost any DI. Getting the uthrow is hard enough, let alone actually following up on it.

Jigglypuff needs a grab, uptilt, or upair to kill Fox instantly. If she can get him off the stage with BAirs, then gimping him is either extremely or somewhat easy depending on his height above the stage.

I agree that Fox can kill her easily, but it's just as easy to kill Fox from Jigglypuff's standpoint. This is a huge part of why I think it's even.

afaik upthrow upair is a legitimate combo on jiggs until pretty high percent. like...around 90-100%. not including jiggs' ability to SDI out of it. which isn't that easy to do...i'd say medium difficulty when you're under no pressure.

yeah, edgeguarding fox is really easy, lol. agreed.

it's not only fox's killing power, though, it's more like...well, in the fox-marth matchup. it seems like marth has to death combo or be consistent with his edgeguarding on fox and fox can suffice with single hits. whenever i watch fox vs. marth videos it seems like the fox gets one or two hits at a time and it still ends up being a close match.

but with jiggs he needs half as many single hits cause she dies earlier. and then he has upsmash. and she can't duck his grab. and all his aerials are faster, combined with his fast running speed and shine. he can just kind of overcome her with bursts of speed, as long as he's patient the rest of the time. (upthrow upair, which we disagree on, makes a big difference imo)

but yeah, i realize i'm only explaining this in general terms. for specifics you'd need to ask kirbykaze or unknown or someone =P

 

[TheManaLord]

TML, you know id father you're children, but you're crazy.

Marth can just full-Hop Fair/bair and send falcon back off the stage, preventing another attempt at a high recovery, and at a certain point falcon can recover high if he wants, because hes just going to eat an f-smash the second he lands.

im going to play medal of honor: allied assault. ill resume my efforts to move falcon down the tier-list later.

I've seen it in person and in videos of falcons recovering high onto stage and making it back. SS uses this method alot and I've seen it very recently. marth has to hit falcon back over and over again to keep falcon from recovering in this method. Falcon, once on stage, needs two or three solid hits to kill marth from even low average percents. don't give up recovering and rarely recover low.

Yeah, it's bad. But falcon ain't ness. His disadvantages have been over emphasized for years. But his weight allows him to keep trying.

Falcon's killing power is through the roof against marth no matter what percentage he's at!

 

[JPOBS]

Idk how you're getting Uthrow UAir'd to the point where it's notable and it's certainly not happening in killing %'s. I find it almost impossible to get the UAir at any % with almost any DI. Getting the uthrow is hard enough, let alone actually following up on it.

Jigglypuff needs a grab, uptilt, or upair to kill Fox instantly. If she can get him off the stage with BAirs, then gimping him is either extremely or somewhat easy depending on his height above the stage.

I agree that Fox can kill her easily, but it's just as easy to kill Fox from Jigglypuff's standpoint. This is a huge part of why I think it's even.

Um, upthrow->upair is extremely easy and garunteed to get on puff regardless of DI, and if you cant do it then thats on you as a player, not fox :/
also, she cant duck fox grab, so its not even risky to go for one :/
on the other hand, puff grab does NOT kill fox instantly, especially if you're talking about REST. with good DI Puff has to forfeit going for rest and either aerial or hope for a tech chase with her terrible speed.

for all intents and purposes, its easier to land upthrow->upair than upthrow-rest assuming the person DI's, and if they dont die, then both parties are boned regardless

also, wtf, how is Puff ever goign to hit fox with uptilt?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Can't Falcon just do what he does against Sheik and hog the edge against Marth, force him onstage, and then reverse knee him or stomp --> knee/big combo until he dies? I'd think it would work better against Marth than Sheik, too, since Marth can be lightshield edgehogged.

 

[JPOBS]

I dont get the hatred people have for lightsheild edgehogging. its so easy and garunteed yet, i still see people try to get all creative when trying to kill marth, and fail.