Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[Roneblaster]

everytime you hang on the edge vs marth you play a very dangerous game of chicken, and falcon cannot recover most times if he loses the gaem.

also, i know falcon can recover high, but in some cases, recovering high wont work anyway. And in almost 100% of cases falcon takes 30%+ in his attempt to recover high.

and jpobs, have you ever watched a top level puff? they get up-tilt rests every match?

im going to play melee instead of MoH:AA. peace *****es.

 

[JPOBS]

the beauty of lightsheild is you dont have to play any games, you literally instant hog him and then he either dies or lands on the stage and then dies.

and honestly, i've seen jiggs' uptilt rest falcon, sheik, marths etc and the like, but its far less common in the fox matchup.

 

[n1000]

Is Falcon really >>> Link?

I'm not terribly familiar with high level Link play but ******* around in friendly matches it doesn't seem that terrible. Link can utilt some of Falcon's approaches, his nair is quite decent for edgeguarding and Falcon's landing lag after up B means you have a decent chance at getting him with a spin attack.

Please dismantle this post if I'm completely out of touch, I was just surprised to see three >s

 

[Divinokage]

kage, you shut that mouth. Its not like you're good with either of those characters.

Money match either of those characters then? Should be free money. =)

 

[TheManaLord]

Falcon is only >> Link ESPECIALLY if he's >> YLink

 

[KAOSTAR]

TML, you know id father you're children, but you're crazy.

Marth can just full-Hop Fair/bair and send falcon back off the stage, preventing another attempt at a high recovery, and at a certain point falcon can recover high if he wants, because hes just going to eat an f-smash the second he lands.

im going to play medal of honor: allied assault. ill resume my efforts to move falcon down the tier-list later.

FAlcon can def effectively edgeguard marth.

Half the ppl say Marth>falcon---EC
Half the ppl say falcon>marth---WC

I think its probably in marths favor. but Its not **** by either character.

 

[xbombr]

Um, upthrow->upair is extremely easy and garunteed to get on puff regardless of DI, and if you cant do it then thats on you as a player, not fox :/
also, she cant duck fox grab, so its not even risky to go for one :/
on the other hand, puff grab does NOT kill fox instantly, especially if you're talking about REST. with good DI Puff has to forfeit going for rest and either aerial or hope for a tech chase with her terrible speed.

for all intents and purposes, its easier to land upthrow->upair than upthrow-rest assuming the person DI's, and if they dont die, then both parties are boned regardless

also, wtf, how is Puff ever goign to hit fox with uptilt?

UThrow UAir is not easy at all if they DI. Her stupid *** aerial mobility, floatiness, and short recovery time makes it really really annoying to hit with a lot of consistency. It's a combo, but far from guaranteed, imo. I guess I'm not amazing at it or something even though I'm really good at doing it to everyone else besides the Marios (for obvious reasons), but you don't see Puffs getting grabbed a **** ton anyway.

Fox getting a grab means that Puff is grounded and under pressure/getting mindgamed.

Puff grab does kill Fox instantly if there isn't obstruction. M2K made a post about this, but I don't remember where it is. Puff from the center of FD has an answer to every possible DI and most of them lead to rest, the others lead to the loleasy edgegaurding that Jigglypuff has against Fox. If Fox misses the DI, then he gets rested unless he passed through a platform and then Jiggs can just chase his tech option with something. If Fox gets grabbed, it's pretty much done unless the Puff screws up or they hit some sort of obstruction that makes Jigglypuff have to chase Fox's tech.

Uthrow -> Rest on Fox is 100% easier than Uthrow -> UAir on Puff without DI'ing the throw. Uthrow -> Rest isn't possible on all DI's, but some sort of follow up is always guaranteed.
Uthrow UAir doesn't kill until much later %'s than Uthrow Rest and can be SDI'ed out of by just mashing the control stick back and forth (or mashing to one side if you're good at timing it lol). Something of comparable damage on all DI's might be Uthrow -> BAir. I'd argue that Fox is in more danger when he's off the stage than when Jigglypuff is when she's above him. Taking into account SDI'ing the UAir, Jigglypuff can outdamage Fox from grab on all DI's, regardless of % if the Jigglypuff is good at SDI.

I would assume that's a correct assumption, right? That Jigglypuff is as good at SDI'ing out of a UAir as Fox is at hitting one from a Uthrow? Both seem about the same difficulty to me given Jigglypuff's character. I'm not the best Fox ever so I'll give you guys that the UAir isn't impossible to hit. Even if the Jigglypuff was like 50% proficient at getting out of a UAir, that would mean that with the amount of grabs a Fox is getting per game, that Jigglypuff might not even eat a full Uthrow -> UAir.

Foxes get uptilted every now and then. Whether its from an error on their part or getting combo'd into it. The point was that it's virtually a guaranteed rest at any % if you get hit by it.

 

[t3h Icy]

The Falcon/Link match-up is based a lot around Skler's opinion and nobody wanted to get yelled at.

I don't know a whole lot about Marth/Falcon, but Marth can't combo Falcon as easily as the spacies, while Falcon can combo Marth like any other character. The edgeguarding though is heavily in Marth's favor though.

 

[xbombr]

Just because it's not as easy as the spacies doesn't mean that comboing Falcon with Marth isn't easy.

The added bonus is that Marth edgeguards him more easily because his options are more limited.

I still think the match up is even though. A whole bunch of crap should happen to Marth if Falcon gets a grab or a knockdown.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Tech chasing Falcon is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo hard.

xbombr hitting Puff with U-throw Uair is easy even if they DI, if you can't do it then sit down in training mode and practice doing it until you can get it, it's just a simple, simple timing. People don't adjust for how fast Fox recovers out of throw. It's that simple.

Jigglypuff being able to SDI it and her general immunity to grab is a much better argument (which you address). However, I don't like the "average players suck at it, therefore it doesn't work!" argument, which has been brought up here (and other places) with too many characters too many times.

 

[Nintendude]

I am leaning towards Falcon >> Link but I do admit it's a really hard matchup. Watching HDL play makes it look like Link puts up a good fight if he plays well.

 

[Mahone]

UThrow UAir is not easy at all if they DI. Her stupid *** aerial mobility, floatiness, and short recovery time makes it really really annoying to hit with a lot of consistency. It's a combo, but far from guaranteed, imo. I guess I'm not amazing at it or something even though I'm really good at doing it to everyone else besides the Marios (for obvious reasons), but you don't see Puffs getting grabbed a **** ton anyway.

Fox getting a grab means that Puff is grounded and under pressure/getting mindgamed.

Puff grab does kill Fox instantly if there isn't obstruction. M2K made a post about this, but I don't remember where it is. Puff from the center of FD has an answer to every possible DI and most of them lead to rest, the others lead to the loleasy edgegaurding that Jigglypuff has against Fox. If Fox misses the DI, then he gets rested unless he passed through a platform and then Jiggs can just chase his tech option with something. If Fox gets grabbed, it's pretty much done unless the Puff screws up or they hit some sort of obstruction that makes Jigglypuff have to chase Fox's tech.

Uthrow -> Rest on Fox is 100% easier than Uthrow -> UAir on Puff without DI'ing the throw. Uthrow -> Rest isn't possible on all DI's, but some sort of follow up is always guaranteed.
Uthrow UAir doesn't kill until much later %'s than Uthrow Rest and can be SDI'ed out of by just mashing the control stick back and forth (or mashing to one side if you're good at timing it lol). Something of comparable damage on all DI's might be Uthrow -> BAir. I'd argue that Fox is in more danger when he's off the stage than when Jigglypuff is when she's above him. Taking into account SDI'ing the UAir, Jigglypuff can outdamage Fox from grab on all DI's, regardless of % if the Jigglypuff is good at SDI.

I would assume that's a correct assumption, right? That Jigglypuff is as good at SDI'ing out of a UAir as Fox is at hitting one from a Uthrow? Both seem about the same difficulty to me given Jigglypuff's character. I'm not the best Fox ever so I'll give you guys that the UAir isn't impossible to hit. Even if the Jigglypuff was like 50% proficient at getting out of a UAir, that would mean that with the amount of grabs a Fox is getting per game, that Jigglypuff might not even eat a full Uthrow -> UAir.

Foxes get uptilted every now and then. Whether its from an error on their part or getting combo'd into it. The point was that it's virtually a guaranteed rest at any % if you get hit by it.

OMG, i dont know where to start. If i am at 0% on FD as fox and i fully di upthrow to the left or right you will not kill me, all you can get is a fair. If you are going to talk about a jiggs that sdi's upair, why aren't you talking about a fox that can di rest, you make it sound like its a guaranteed kill always. Also, jiggs can't sdi the upair if the fox spaces it correctly, which i admit is hard, but this theoretical jiggs you talk about can perfect techchase and rest and edgeguard so i'm gonna assume fox is perfect. The fox's i play di my uptilts or cc it so its not guarenteed at all at low percents, and it's not that easy to get on fox anyway. Also, the problem with your grab for grab jiggs is better argument is that it is MUCH EASIER to grab jiggs as fox as it is for jiggs to grab fox. You watch mango and hbox and see that they don't get grabbed alot, but they are just better than the people they are playing so its not really fair to say jiggs doesn't get grabbed.

 

[xbombr]

Sure Fox can DI rest. That helps until like... what? 15%?

SDI'ing Fox's UAir helps at all %'s where getting a UAir kill (or even just reducing a large % of the damage) is particularly relevant. Fox spacing the Uair properly is something that I think is irrelevant. Uthrow Uair is guaranteed as people have said, but I still don't think it's so easy to the point that you can snipe her with the second hit on command when you want the kill.

Pretty sure Jiggs can pound on full DI away on the uthrow... Since Fox is already DI'ing away it wouldn't be that hard to get a rest if he kept DI'ing away since he'd go straight up, if not he goes behind you and you start your BAir spam up because you won't even have to turn around.

You're wrong that it's incredibly easier for Fox to grab Jiggs than the other way around. I think it's about even as far as grabs go. Fox is a fast, slipperly, tricky little ******* and Jiggs is a floaty ***** who doesn't stay on the ground long enough for a grab game to make a huge difference. It's pointless to argue though, the assumption involved with both of their grab games in this MU are huge mistakes and bad spacing that give large windows of time to utilize it.

 

[Mahone]

Fox can jump out before you pound them at almost all percents, and at 0 i think it can hit him, but then he will hit the ground while you are still in lag of your pound, so if he techs away you can't follow up. I'm assuming you think foxes can't space upairs perfectly when the jiggs di's the upthrow, which is true, but the same goes for upthrow rest. I mean, like you said, its much easier for jiggs if there is no di, but if there is some di or sneaky slight di it is not THAT easy to get a rest. I mean, darc is the 3rd best jiggs player and he's gotten 2 phantom rests to lose matches because of di. Ya, i agree that if either character gets grabbed its a mistake, but its still easier for fox to get grabs. If you dont believe me go watch jman vs hbox or mango. Jman is worse than both of them but im sure that he gets way more grabs then them in almost every game.

 

[fLoAtiN]

no one expects a grab from a puff.
if you get grabbed by puff as fox, it's pretty likely that you won't di the throw.

 

[KAOSTAR]

rest di doesn't work. after a little percent you need incredible di to live.

so different than uair, which can be hit with only the second part.

 

[Roneblaster]

icy, marth can combo falcon pretty easily. It just isnt as easy as spacies. as scar once put it "if he hits you with his sword once, he can get an auto-combo to %150." its not that drastic, but it is HELLLLAAAA EEASSSSSSYYYYYY for marth to combo falcon. Falcon's combos on marth are flashier, not better.

 

[TheManaLord]

guys im so fuke d uip rightnow

falocn math is so even

 

[Roneblaster]

tml the alch. gg's.

 

[idea]

if jiggs is in the air all the time she's not getting grabs either. she needs to wavedash around on the ground to get grabs. in which case fox can grab and/or shield pressure her. not that shield pressure is foolproof, but generally speaking the ground is not a safe place vs. fox.

and yeah, jiggs' upthrow to stuff is by no means guaranteed on fox. only at lower percents. after a while i just start fthrowing so i can at least get a techchase out of it, or backthrowing, if near enough to an edge.

and i dunno what m2k means about "she always has an option from the center of FD"...jigglypuff just can't techchase on reaction, she's not fast enough. if they DI full away and tech away you have to know they're going to do that or you can't catch them. on other characters with slower techrolls it might be possible.

from the middle of FD, fox can survive a rest until about 40%. at that point he should start DIing it down so he can die quickly and get a pretty good punish in. if he has the time, a fully charged upsmash would kill jiggs on FD when she's at around...35%? 40%? something like that. or he could do something like dair>upthrow>upair for pretty good damage.

i still disagree that upthrow upair is hard to hit =P KK might be right, try jumping faster. jigglypuff's light so fox can move again really quickly.

 

[Magus420]

If you DI Jiggs' u-throw full behind they can't directly follow up with anything at all. You get thrown straight up from behind Jiggs, so DIing away sends you through them and keeps you closer. DIing behind puts a lot more space between them.

 

[JPOBS]

no one expects a grab from a puff.
if you get grabbed by puff as fox, it's pretty likely that you won't di the throw.

maybe if your bad at melee

and ya, like KK and Idea said, you can move almst instantly out of throwing jiggs because she's so light and throw animation duration is proportional to character weight.

 

[1048576]

How can Falcon Pichu be >>> when Falcon Pikachu is = ? What does Pikachu do that Pichu doesn't that makes it so much worse for Pichu?

 

[TheManaLord]

lol you're really inquiring about the differences between pichu and pikachu? xD

 

[xbombr]

If you DI Jiggs' u-throw full behind they can't directly follow up with anything at all. You get thrown straight up from behind Jiggs, so DIing away sends you through them and keeps you closer. DIing behind puts a lot more space between them.

BAir won't even reach at any %'s?

 

[fLoAtiN]

maybe if your bad at melee

and ya, like KK and Idea said, you can move almst instantly out of throwing jiggs because she's so light and throw animation duration is proportional to character weight.

really then tell me why rests even happen from uthrow besides super low percents?

 

[Magus420]

BAir won't even reach at any %'s?

Actually that does barely reach. Always seemed like it wouldn't back when I used Jiggs. The thing he said about them having an answer to every DI that either leads to rest or an edgeguard isn't true though. B-air for behind DI leads to nothing on-stage, and f-air/pound is not a legit mixup for away DI on-stage. DIing the followup down will keep you safe from both pound rest and f-air regrab.

 

[xbombr]

I just remember seeing it and it sounding pretty legit.

I really think the grab game is being overemphasized though since grabs don't happen enough for it to really matter. Jiggs goes pound for pound (no pun intended) with Fox as far as the grab game goes. Both are relatively immune to grabs with good play. Jiggs gets an instant kill from no DI and slightly lesser damage from all DI's, Fox gets an easy mid % kill from all DI's that can be SDI'ed out of. It's really just a trade-off, imo.

Jiggs is pretty much the one character who is great against Fox's pressure game. She can sustain being in the air for a long time and Fox needs her on the ground to pressure her. It's not necessarily that she's better at interrupting his pressure game, it's that he can't really even start it up very effectively just due to the nature of her character.

Fox and Jiggs can't really pressure each other, they can't approach each other without enormous risk, both are totally dominant over their domain (ground and air respectively), and both kill each other VERY EASILY. Basically they shut down each other's offense due to the risks they're forced to take and the basic make up of the characters. Hence they're stuck in a defensive game, punishing each other's mistakes.

I really think this is an even match up, despite everything that's been said.

 

[JPOBS]

really then tell me why rests even happen from uthrow besides super low percents?

it has nothing to do with "no one expects grabs from puff"

the reason people sometimes get upthrow rested is because they get caught out of fast falls and shines where they are already holding down and it happens on accident.

it happens to the best of us but it has nothing to do with being caught off guard by jiggs grab. if anything, grab is one of the biggest things to worry about when fighting puff

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

rest di doesn't work. after a little percent you need incredible di to live.

so different than uair, which can be hit with only the second part.

yea for fox what... if hes been hit bit 2 aerials hes gonna die after the next rest in 95% situations

 

[Roneblaster]

this is some good falcon discussion.

 

[fLoAtiN]

it has nothing to do with "no one expects grabs from puff"

the reason people sometimes get upthrow rested is because they get caught out of fast falls and shines where they are already holding down and it happens on accident.

it happens to the best of us but it has nothing to do with being caught off guard by jiggs grab. if anything, grab is one of the biggest things to worry about when fighting puff

ok, it's not because no one expects grabs from puff. my bad about that.
but you often see many people miss the di when puff gets a uthrow which leads to a rest. that's all i meant to say.

 

[Mahone]

I just remember seeing it and it sounding pretty legit.

I really think the grab game is being overemphasized though since grabs don't happen enough for it to really matter. Jiggs goes pound for pound (no pun intended) with Fox as far as the grab game goes. Both are relatively immune to grabs with good play. Jiggs gets an instant kill from no DI and slightly lesser damage from all DI's, Fox gets an easy mid % kill from all DI's that can be SDI'ed out of. It's really just a trade-off, imo.

Jiggs is pretty much the one character who is great against Fox's pressure game. She can sustain being in the air for a long time and Fox needs her on the ground to pressure her. It's not necessarily that she's better at interrupting his pressure game, it's that he can't really even start it up very effectively just due to the nature of her character.

Fox and Jiggs can't really pressure each other, they can't approach each other without enormous risk, both are totally dominant over their domain (ground and air respectively), and both kill each other VERY EASILY. Basically they shut down each other's offense due to the risks they're forced to take and the basic make up of the characters. Hence they're stuck in a defensive game, punishing each other's mistakes.

I really think this is an even match up, despite everything that's been said.

Now that you have removed all of the ridiculous over exaggerations about puff, i think you have a very good argument for why the matchup is even, but i think its on to falcon now so we should probably stop talking about puff.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

FAlcon can def effectively edgeguard marth.

Half the ppl say Marth>falcon---EC
Half the ppl say falcon>marth---WC

I think its probably in marths favor. but Its not **** by either character.

1) you have your coasts backwards. EC knows the matchup and knows its falcon > marth (m2k has an open MM for any large sum of money his falcon vs marth). WC just smokes weed and doesn't really care about matchups and makes jokes in commentary about how marth > falcon.

2) its definitely falcon > marth. for one, marth has almost no answer for falcon's nair. it goes through or trades with all of marth's aerials and can only effectively be beaten by a perfectly timed utilt from the marth (which is very laggy and will get you punished if you miss time or get baited). Once hit, falcon combos marth very effectively and has auto kills from throws.

marth only has edgeguards, his onstage combos are limited to basically fair->fsmash and otherwise he has to techchase or force falcon off the stage to win.

3) its definitely ****. It sucks. a lot. It gets fun when you can grab the fastest character in the game though.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Wait why can't Marth CC grab the Nair? It's piss weak and Sheik can do it really easily and I doubt the slight weight disparity makes that huge of a difference for such a weak move.

Also, is tech chasing Falcon hard? Somewhat serious question.

 

[TheManaLord]

falcon shouldnt be approaching with nair to get cc grabbed

 

[KAOSTAR]

1) you have your coasts backwards. EC knows the matchup and knows its falcon > marth (m2k has an open MM for any large sum of money his falcon vs marth). WC just smokes weed and doesn't really care about matchups and makes jokes in commentary about how marth > falcon.

2) its definitely falcon > marth. for one, marth has almost no answer for falcon's nair. it goes through or trades with all of marth's aerials and can only effectively be beaten by a perfectly timed utilt from the marth (which is very laggy and will get you punished if you miss time or get baited). Once hit, falcon combos marth very effectively and has auto kills from throws.

marth only has edgeguards, his onstage combos are limited to basically fair->fsmash and otherwise he has to techchase or force falcon off the stage to win.

3) its definitely ****. It sucks. a lot. It gets fun when you can grab the fastest character in the game though.

hmmm, well I guess thats just Scar who says Marth >falcon on the EC, but thats probably why he moved then.

uptilt works ok to stop nair, and if they nair thru you or high, attack oos. and the tech chasing is easy lol.

 

[JPOBS]

marths has no answer for falcons nair? it GOES THROUGH all his aerials?

what is this..i dont even.

 

[fLoAtiN]

marths has no answer for falcons nair? it GOES THROUGH all his aerials?

what is this..i dont even.

yeah what?
marth's A is like good enough to stop falcon's nair.

 

[TheManaLord]

*facepalm*