Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[idea]

Black Mage is the best class of anything ever.

 

[DJ Nintendo]

Mario doesn't get ***** by Falco. The matchup is even.

 

[rhan]

A lot of Falco's match-up are either in his favor when he's in control. But once he loses that control it's pretty much even if you know how to gimp correctly.

As a wise player from Chicago once said.

"You can sneeze on Falco and he dies."

Relevant post.

 

[JPOBS]

f*** it.

Just put all of falco's matchups as even cuz everyone says "once you hit him he dies" cuz apperently the entire cast 0-deaths off of one hit and gimps perfectly no matter how many amazing mixups his recovery has, regardless of how bad he bodies 90% of the cast.

 

[MalwareDie]

merkuri has the worst arguments of all time

OF ALL TIME

Doc King .

 

[Merkuri]

lol.
cause being a stock down isn't a reason to not camp. ever.

If the Fox is a stock down then he may very well want to laser camp. I was just illustrating that the strategy wouldn't force a smart Sheik to approach.

I'm assuming you intended to use double negatives.

 

[idea]

list of things about falco that are bad:

- recovery is only okay (it's worse before you factor in his weight + assumed good DI)
- upair isn't so great
- upsmash isn't very strong

i dunno, i think that's about it.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Falco's bad traits include his average recovery, average Uair, subpar U-smash, and slightly below average movement speed.

 

[TemPesT-]

don't forget his over powered forward aerial

 

[JPOBS]

flutter hush is the future of falco combos, you'll see.

 

[KAOSTAR]

If the Fox is a stock down then he may very well want to laser camp. I was just illustrating that the strategy wouldn't force a smart Sheik to approach.

I'm assuming you intended to use double negatives.

I dont see him laser camping if he is down a stock. Sheik is pretty good at turtling and If fox is on stage lasering I would just shino stall, or drop down and dj and grab.

Make fox approach the edge and try to gimp his ***.

 

[ChaosNoobSlayer]

WTF happened here!?! Did all the low tiers just get better or something?

 

[otg]

Falco's usmash has solid range and launches so it's not really terrible imo.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Better than marth's

 

[Merkuri]

I dont see him laser camping if he is down a stock. Sheik is pretty good at turtling and If fox is on stage lasering I would just shino stall, or drop down and dj and grab.

Make fox approach the edge and try to gimp his ***.

Yeah, that's exactly my point. People give too much credit to Fox's lasering.

 

[BigWenz]

if mario falcon is 45:55 then doc falcon has to be even. mario falcon 45:55 if anything is only cause of Scorp-eh-dorp aka mango and using mango as an argument as to why a character is good or not makes that argument completely invalid. personally i think doc falcon is 45:55 if anything long as u dont *** up ur DI the match up isnt that bad as doc since u can gimp the holy *** out of c falc.

docs bair > marios bair

 

[KAOSTAR]

Yeah, that's exactly my point. People give too much credit to Fox's lasering.

thats only if fox is down a stock. no matter how hard you try you can't take a stock with a laser.

if fox is winning and continuing to rack up damage then you have to approach. either you lose to time out, or you just take more damage on that stock because you cemented. its like you gotta approach when u are down. so sooner the better in terms of laser damage.

just don't be dumb. DD etc and look for openings, but be close enough to force reactions from fox.

 

[unknown522]

when something of falco's is "bad", it's being compared to fox's. People don't realize that it's still good.

If something of falco's is better than fox's, then it's average.

not until 120-130. thats the optimal kill lol

alright.

m2 4:6 falco? DrPP vs Taj made that matchup look completely hopeless

I remember just before Taj faced him, he went to Raynex and told him to laser camp him as much as possible. He was trying to find ways around the lasers. It was pretty cute.

at 130

with d-throw

if he di away you can't regrab

if he di away from f-tilt you can't do mixups and expect to hit him with a follow like vs normal floaties because mewtwo has better combo escape than peach/luigi/samus and more aerial mobility than all three combined which is dumb but whatever i guess mewtwo rolled a good aerial mobility modifier when they were making stats

if you fair combo ends unless you get garbage like d-throw fair needle grab or some **** that doesn't work but sometimes does if they're like "whoa what is that" and have never seen it before

if you nair combo ends

dash attack doesn't link

u-smash doesn't link

if he doesn't di away you can do whatever the hell you want and then some but idk why he'd ever let you do that to him

dash attack combos are like the same as they are vs peach only he can teleport out of some of them and he can drift further away because of his aerial mobility

alright, whatever. Put it as 60-40.

 

[idea]

by "bad" for falco i did indeed mean "average" overall i'm sure most low tiers would be happy to switch upsmashes with falco.

 

[unknown522]

so I guess it's been established that Sheik can't combo M2. So how does M2 go about hitting/comboing sheik? I've heard camp her already. Lol.

 

[t3h Icy]

I updated the visuals for the older chart and merged all the images into one.

Anywho, does anyone want to take over this project? It's been going downhill for awhile and I've already accomplished pretty much everything I wanted with this. I don't really feel like doing it anymore and I'd rather focus on other things. n_n Most people really don't care anymore either. =P

Alternatively, we could just stop altogether and bring up this type of topic in another year or two if the metagame changes at all. Doesn't matter to me.

 

[Laijin]

Although its not perfect obviously, its MUCH more accurate than the tier list. Good job bro

 

[KirbyKaze]

so I guess it's been established that Sheik can't combo M2. So how does M2 go about hitting/comboing sheik? I've heard camp her already. Lol.

This was my concern with the 60-40.

The key is to dodge all projectiles and keep charging forward. =P

...with Mage?

Kage your advice is terrible. Just because it works for Warriors doesn't mean it works for every other class in existence.

 

[unknown522]

I updated the visuals for the older chart and merged all the images into one.

Anywho, does anyone want to take over this project? It's been going downhill for awhile and I've already accomplished pretty much everything I wanted with this. I don't really feel like doing it anymore and I'd rather focus on other things. n_n Most people really don't care anymore either. =P

Alternatively, we could just stop altogether and bring up this type of topic in another year or two if the metagame changes at all. Doesn't matter to me.

yeah, it gets annoying when no one can agree. We felt the same way when we made that previous chart.

I'm torn, because the smash community should have a matchup chart, but there are so many factors that play into this game, compared to other games, which players weigh/prioritize differently. Also people like to underrate/overrate their characters for some reason. Dunno why it's always one of the extremes.

It's just much easier to make a matchup chart in other competitive games I guess.

 

[TemPesT-]

^this is why it would be easier to agree on <, >, <<, >>, and = match ups then numbers. this games so complicated lol you guys should just come to a general consensus on who wins the match up, 5 numbers up or down is hardly anything

 

[KAOSTAR]

so I guess it's been established that Sheik can't combo M2. So how does M2 go about hitting/comboing sheik? I've heard camp her already. Lol.

his approach is solid. he can out cc her dtilt with his own and he has more range from it.

you don't camp sheik, she is better at it. you only zone ur already decent approach vs sheik.

if she shields or gets hit then its grab mode. m2 has plenty of options. if she jumps over it you have potential teleport cross ups, or nair opps. m2 ***** from below.

any poorly spaced attack, usually from reacting once sheik has jumped and m2 baits or does a cross up thats a nair oos or grab. both start the party.

basically wd dtilt is good vs sheik if you space them. she will have some difficulty trying to punish, even oos. m2 can deal with needles easily on a platform stage, although you must be weary of platform needle camping. on fd u can anticipate and tele or wd oos.

 

[john!]

low tiers overrate their character and high tiers underrate their character

just how it goes i guess

people need to learn their place >:D

 

[KAOSTAR]

na some people just don't know ****

 

[DJ Nintendo]

na some people just don't know ****

Exactly what I be saying.

 

[rhan]

Don't give up on something that actually matters...

 

[THeDarKnesS]

Alot of MUs aren't as bad as people think they are. But Kirby ****ing sucks, and *****s don't go almost even with falco. The **** are people thinking. smh.

 

[Roneblaster]

step up on/about what?

 

[TemPesT-]

A kirby main from MN beat a pretty decent marth main from texas tonight.

 

[Laijin]

I'd quit melee if I lost to a kirby main while playing my main(which is Sheik/YL btw)

 

[TemPesT-]

I'd quit melee if I lost to a kirby main while playing my main(which is Sheik/YL btw)

i lost to the kirby main too.

 

[KirbyKaze]

but you use fox and fox kirby is 100-0

 

[TemPesT-]

that's the kicker. but actually my falco is what lost <_< i got gimped

 

[JPOBS]

i dont want to see this project disappear.

Although we are pretty much done. The chart we completed a few weeks ago were we discussed most matchups in one thrad is pretty solid imo.

It go ******** when we asked each character forum tho, then you go *****s like mario thinking they hold a candle to falco. so stupid.

In the end, i think we did a good job with the first chart tho

 

[Merkuri]

I think this thread should just die for a year and then start back up in mid 2011. The problem is that a lot of people aren't open to new changes in match ups. Especially in regards to spacies and for some reason I cannot understand Especially Fox. People are convinced that they have to beat/dominate most of their matchs up ortherwise the chart must be incorrect, and that's kind stupid.

Teh icy just let the thread go.

 

[x After Dawn x]

^ that's kind of a harsh way to put it but i kind of agree

changes don't come overnight, they happen over long periods of time and it's not like we can continue making little changes by observing them overnight. like, there's a reason tier lists only come out over long periods of time, because it's easier tracking trends over bigger periods and adjusting to that then trying to follow these little things we notice every so often.