Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[Fortress | Sveet]

Fox 60:60 Falco

 

[Winston]

Jigglypuff 50:50 Marth
Jigglypuff 55:45 Sheik
Marth 45:55 Sheik

these are pretty suspect...

especially Marth : Sheik

 

[t3h Icy]

I'm a n00b though. >_>

 

[KAOSTAR]

zelda doesn't have to force anything, she's a fairly static character to begin with. it's a lot closer to even than it is to a +1. mewtwo's advantage is marginal at best.

imo
slight advantages are not far off-center. 60-40 max

bs number 56-44 lol.

its not **** or anything, but imo being able to control the match from start to finish gives m2 enough to call it + 1 or slight advantage.

one character is slightly favored to win but it could go either way.

not a big deal really, its close either way.

@sveet lol. you act like im basing the MU off that. the MU was covered in depth, he didn't even try. his opinion is invalidated when his facts are wrong.

bair lmao. how about the standard wave dash to tilt.

the match isn't ****, but zelda had piss poor defense in the discussion. It was all based on saying m2 cant do instead of zelda can do. they took the perspective of the side they knew least about which is dumb.

 

[Merkuri]

Since we're just throwing opinions out there.

Fox 50:50 Marth
Fox: 55:45 Shiek
Fox 45:55 Falco
Fox 50:50 Jiggs
Marth 60:40 Shiek
Marth 45:55 Jigs
Marth 50:50 Falco
Shiek 45:55 Falco
Shiek 35:65 Jigs
Falco 50:50 Jigs

 

[rhan]

Falco vs Fox 55:45
Falco vs Jigglypuff 40:60
Falco vs Marth 50:50 (Really though stage dependent)
Falco vs Sheik 50:50
Fox vs Jigglypuff 55:45
Fox vs Marth 50:50
Fox vs Sheik 55:45
Jigglypuff vs Marth 60:40
Jigglypuff vs Sheik 55:45
Marth vs Sheik 45:55

Just my opinions. I don't want to get flames for this. >_>

Edit: Made a boo boo.

 

[Merkuri]

Falco vs Fox 55:45
Falco vs Jigglypuff 40:60
Falco vs Marth 50:50 (Really though stage dependent)
Falco vs Sheik 50:50
Fox vs Jigglypuff 55:45
Fox vs Marth 50:50
Fox vs Sheik 45:55
Jigglypuff vs Marth 60:40
Jigglypuff vs Sheik 55:45
Marth vs Sheik 45:55

Just my opinions. I don't want to get flames for this. >_>

Interesting. Why do you think Sheik has the advantage on Fox? I've never heard that opinion before.

 

[KAOSTAR]

this looks like its going to be hard

 

[john!]

lol maybe we can just take the average of all these opinions and make that the chart entry

Falco vs Fox 50-50
Falco vs Jigglypuff 45-55
Falco vs Marth 45-55
Falco vs Sheik 55-45
Fox vs Jigglypuff 55-45
Fox vs Marth 50-50
Fox vs Sheik 55-45
Jigglypuff vs Marth 45-55
Jigglypuff vs Sheik 55-45
Marth vs Sheik 40-60

in my non-top-tier-maining opinion

 

[Shadow Huan]

from playing fox against some good falcos recently I would say that the MU is 55:45 Falco, IMO. 50:50 Marth/Falco, and 50:50 Fox/Marth (They can be equally ghey to eachother). 60:40 for Sheik in the Marth/Sheik MU though. it's not as bad as some Marths make it out to be, Marth just has to play smart and safe and space the mother****ing crap out of her. becuase of the ABC combos Sheik gets the adv. though.

EDIT: in my experience (and I do have some actually) Zelda/M2 is stage dependant. Zelda is capable of winning more easily on small stages where M2 doesn't have escape/poke then run options, and M2 camps/picks her apart on big stages. pretty close to even I'd say, about 52:48 M2

 

[V3ctorMan]

Notify me anybody when you get to the Falco/Yoshi MU's I'd really like to contribute =) (since we have a new system i'll integrate the numbers concept too ^^)

 

[Shadow Huan]

hey V-man I played against NE's only yoshi with M2 yesterday. I don't have a ****ing clue how to fight Yoshi with Mewtwo, but the MU felt 50:50 even though I lost. (He certainly didn't **** me lol)

 

[rhan]

Interesting. Why do you think Sheik has the advantage on Fox? I've never heard that opinion before.

Made a mistake. I don't think Sheik can do much against either space animal. If she would have an advatage it would most likely be against Falco because of his horrible recovery. But his pressure/approach is so good that he pretty much can be in control as long as the Falco can stay solid.

 

[Tamoo]

Hmm wrote up long *** texts about jigg's high tier matchups but smashboards gayed me so i'll just write my opinion on jiggs and if anybody really cares about my opinion on the matchup, i can elaborate.

jiggs fox 40:60
jiggs falco 50:50
jiggs marth 60:40
jiggs shiek 60:40
jiggs peach 60:40
jiggs falcon: 50:50
jiggs ICs: 50:50
jiggs samus: 65:35
jiggs doc 50:50
jiggs ganon 60:40
jiggs luigi 55:45

Im a very reluctant user of numbers tbh, especially denominations of 5s but here's my opinion anyway

 

[KAOSTAR]

well I disagree sb2 lol.

the icy-how can we use numbers without them meaning the same thing all across the board.

its dumb if our chart contradicts out self. > needs to be within a range. that way we can narrow it down.

I don't want to see fox>> yoshi 70 30

and fox>>> ness 70 30.

something like what ppl suggested b4 could speed things up and get ppl on the same page. also USE THE CHART EVERYBODY. your numbers need to be consistent for all MUs or we might as well not do it.

 

[V3ctorMan]

i've stated earlier that if I had to go numbers it's like 51/49..but for this chart purpose.. etc.... and potentially speaking.... (i.e. Taj's Mewtwo, vs X Yoshi <---- hopefully the x will be me someday ^^) I'm leanin towards the 50/50 as well...but since Yoshi's game has yet to be Tapped (imo) as of right now i'm sure noone would argue 55/45 in favor of M2..

anyway topic atm is high/top tier, I'm sure someone will notify me, once we get there ^^

 

[Shadow Huan]

well I disagree sb2 lol.

what do you disagree with? lol.

If I'm taking Mewtwo against a Zelda in a set you'd better believe that I'm banning YS. Mewtwo needs space to move, sorta like Falcon

 

[t3h Icy]

Im a very reluctant user of numbers tbh, especially denominations of 5s but here's my opinion anyway

Feel free to use numbers that aren't multiples of 5.

the icy-how can we use numbers without them meaning the same thing all across the board.

its dumb if our chart contradicts out self. > needs to be within a range. that way we can narrow it down.

I don't want to see fox>> yoshi 70 30

and fox>>> ness 70 30.

something like what ppl suggested b4 could speed things up and get ppl on the same page. also USE THE CHART EVERYBODY. your numbers need to be consistent for all MUs or we might as well not do it.

It's WIP, the advantage signs are rough, they may not be perfectly accurate either, by the time we get to some characters, things might have changed, etc

 

[KAOSTAR]

lol I don't know why but for some reason im ok with that answer.

 

[Shadow Huan]

sure ignore me... or were you talking to me? lmao

 

[KAOSTAR]

sure ignore me... or were you talking to me? lmao

I deleted my response to you to avoid more zelda talk. but idk if id ban ys. im unsure. I like the low ceiling and platform placement. depends, other stages could be better but maybe the low ceiling could help.

I think mewtwo has more of an adv but wouldn't argue against vman since he is both a yoshi and m2.

 

[Shadow Huan]

annnyways... lol

is Puff/Fox adv. Fox? I dk...

 

[Tamoo]

i would argue so,

although i would argue that the matchup is very stage dependant and fox wins on 3 neutrals and jiggs wins on two imo

and very dependant on fox style.

Its a pretty hard matchup to call but i feel at the highest level atm, if a fox and jiggs play to their best, the fox would edge it

 

[Shadow Huan]

i'd agree, what with fox having kill power and lasers...

 

[Deleted member]

the match isn't ****, but zelda had piss poor defense in the discussion. It was all based on saying m2 cant do instead of zelda can do. they took the perspective of the side they knew least about which is dumb.

zelda does have one legitimate defense for the MU. Since we're basing the match-ups on the best players, you have to go into the discussion that the best zelda player (me) already knows a hell of a lot about mewtwo, and that I've already played against the best mewtwo (taj).

 

[Merkuri]

zelda does have one legitimate defense for the MU. Since we're basing the match-ups on the best players, you have to go into the discussion that the best zelda player (me) already knows a hell of a lot about mewtwo, and that I've already played against the best mewtwo (taj).

I think Cosmo is the best Zelda player right now. And I think most people would agree.

 

[TheManaLord]

Kao trolls Zelda and that matchup

it's an even, or slight m2 only using a better format, 55:45

 

[t3h Icy]

Fox 50:50 Marth and Fox 55:45 Sheik.

Are these good to go?

 

[Roneblaster]

seems like the right thing to do icy.
but while were just throwing opinions out there.

Falco vs Fox 55-45
Falco vs Jigglypuff 45-55
Falco vs Marth 45-55
Falco vs Sheik 55-45
Fox vs Jigglypuff 55-45
Fox vs Marth 50-50
Fox vs Sheik 55-45
Jigglypuff vs Marth 45-55
Jigglypuff vs Sheik 55-45
Marth vs Sheik 35-65

lol i agree with merkuri on all but 2 MU's, does this make a scrub?

 

[t3h Icy]

Updated:

Fox 50:50 Marth
Fox 55:45 Sheik

 

[Mahone]

Ok, so the jiggs stuff is kinda messed up, so its time to end it once and for all!!!!

So the following are my opinions, and I will gladly explain to you why you are wrong if you disagree with me, or who knows, if you make sense and don't just ***** about puff being broken I will change my opinion, but either way the chart will be fixed.

vs Fox 45-55
vs Sheik 55-45
vs Falco 55-45
vs Marth 40-60
vs Jiggs 50-50
vs Falcon 55-45
vs Peach 55-45
vs Ganon 55-45
vs Icies 55-45
vs Samus 60-40
vs Doc 45-55
vs Mario 55-45
vs Luigi 55-45

For the rest I don't have enough experience to rate the matchups,
but who gives a **** about the rest anyway.

 

[rhan]

I don't believe Jiggs v Samus is that great of a disadvantage. I don't see it being in Samus' favor either. somewhere between even and 57:43

 

[Mahone]

I don't believe Jiggs v Samus is that great of a disadvantage. I don't see it being in Samus' favor either. somewhere between even and 57:43

Tbh, thats the one match that i was unsure of, because ive never played a good samus, but i no that you can rest everything she has oos if she misspaces and you can mess up her recovery

 

[S l o X]

Fox 60:60 Falco

2 & 1/2 Men!?

/

Can someone explain why Fox is 50:50 with Marth but he beats Sheik?

Not to be a ****, I just want to know why. I always thought Sheik ***** spaces off the ledge, gimps just as well as Marth etc . . . just doesn't have the chaingrabs but writing this out, I realize I'm missing a bunch of things (approaches, answers to camping etc . . .) I just want like two reasons why Marth = Fox and Sheik < Fox

 

[KAOSTAR]

zelda does have one legitimate defense for the MU. Since we're basing the match-ups on the best players, you have to go into the discussion that the best zelda player (me) already knows a hell of a lot about mewtwo, and that I've already played against the best mewtwo (taj).

lol, if you look at the group I made....you were definitely on m2s side lmao. they asked for your opinion a way long time ago and then didn't like what you said so they said you were outdated.

I honestly think the MU is 56-44. maybe 55-45 if m2 is low on hp.

either way, sounds like everyone finally agrees :-) slight m2.

I feel weird putting it to rest.

also note by MUs m2 is above yoshi roy kirby bowser pichu and ness just like I said.

@TML-yea, it was fun **** tho. overall I think zelda is a more viable character than mewtwo.

 

[JPOBS]

2 & 1/2 Men!?

/

Can someone explain why Fox is 50:50 with Marth but he beats Sheik?

Not to be a ****, I just want to know why. I always thought Sheik ***** spaces off the ledge, gimps just as well as Marth etc . . . just doesn't have the chaingrabs but writing this out, I realize I'm missing a bunch of things (approaches, answers to camping etc . . .) I just want like two reasons why Marth = Fox and Sheik < Fox

1. its easier to edgeguard sheik as fox than it is to edgeguard marth
2. marths grab combos are much better and garunteed than sheiks
3. fox kills them mostly in the same ways, but he has the added bonus of waveshien upsmash vs sheik

jus a few things off the top

 

[SleepyK]

Falco v Fox
49-51

 

[HomeMadeWaffles]

Falco(50) vs Fox(50)
Falco(45) vs Jigglypuff(55)
Falco(45) vs Marth(55)
Falco(45) vs Sheik(55)
Fox(60) vs Jigglypuff(40)
Fox(50) vs Marth(50)
Fox(60) vs Sheik(40)
Jigglypuff(40) vs Marth(60)
Jigglypuff(40) vs Sheik(60)
Marth(45) vs Sheik(60)

 

[Animal]

hungrybox would disagree with that jiggz vs sheik stat. he would say something like 80-20 puffs favor. he never loses it haha

 

[KAOSTAR]

Falco(50) vs Fox(50)
Falco(45) vs Jigglypuff(55)
Falco(45) vs Marth(55)
Falco(45) vs Sheik(55)
Fox(60) vs Jigglypuff(40)
Fox(50) vs Marth(50)
Fox(60) vs Sheik(40)
Jigglypuff(40) vs Marth(60)
Jigglypuff(40) vs Sheik(60)
Marth(45) vs Sheik(60)

sheik marth must be really intense lol