Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[insekt11]

O: you've probably played this game a lot!

 

[Merkuri]

Everytime I've seen link VS Pikachu link Always beats Pikachu pretty badly. Pikachu's approaches lack range and priority so it's simple for link to keep him out with the sword, not to mention that Link's camping game is a lot better than Pikachu's. I really think it's Link > Pikachu.

Really? Zhu beat M2K, and Jman came close to beating Amsah. They probably are the top 5 right now, but there's nothing special about them that makes them untouchable. And you can't say that all the top players have an equal amount of skill, that's just not true as shown by tourney results.

People already addressed what makes those 5 different. And I could also name you like 20 players below those 5 who are fairly equivalent in skill levels to the point in which the difference between them is hardly relevant to the chart.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Falcon is > Samus

I don't play either character, so I'll just quote HugS.

I've already made posts defending the more controversial match ups (Fox/Falco vs Samus) Which I feel are:
Samus > Falco
Samus = Fox

My other opinions are as follows:

Marth >> Samus
Sheik > Samus
Peach = Samus
Falcon = Samus

I will only do a big write up on Falcon/Peach if it is considered too much of an odd opinion and someone tries to tell me otherwise. In other words, i need someone to say why falcon/peach ***** Samus so that I may correct them from my perspective.

I will not comment on other matches because the consensus is as I put it, or I do not know enough about the match up to say why I feel this way.

I could touch on Sheik Marth too I guess. Let me know.

 

[t3h Icy]

Really? Zhu beat M2K, and Jman came close to beating Amsah. They probably are the top 5 right now, but there's nothing special about them that makes them untouchable. And you can't say that all the top players have an equal amount of skill, that's just not true as shown by tourney results.

Actually something interesting I noticed: each player has only lost to one player outside of the Top 5 in recent times: Mango to Kage, Hungrybox to DrPP (unless you also count Colbol at their smaller tournies), M2K to Zhu, Armada to SS and Amsah to Lucky. Heh.

Untrue statement.

I've seen this matchup and played the matchup. I haven't seen anyone lose. And I've never lost it. Some matches are 2 stocks while some matches ARE pretty close. But over all the YLink wins.

Well right now it's Pikachu > Young Link, so changing it to equal would at least be one step in the right direction.

 

[Rappster]

nope, a number is either less than three or equal to 3. no such thing as negligible on the abstract number line. /nerd

but yeah i love numbers that are less than three

me too. especially 2 and e.

but numbers are either less then three, equal to three, or greater than three.

 

[HugS™]

Falcon definitely has the advantage on Samus.

He just runs around throwing around unpunishable/difficult to avoid **** while the Samus struggles to keep up and when Samus gets hit off the ground, she takes a stock's worth of damage from getting uaird/kneed across the stage

Then Samus lands that 1 move that leads to a 0-death gimp that ties it all back up.

 

[t3h Icy]

So important question/discussion:

While the Low Tier/Bottom Tier match-ups are still in progress, shall we begin slowly converting some of the match-ups to 0-100, and have the chart as a hybrid during the time we go through them? Starting off would only be the Top Tiers against each other, and seeing what happens, maybe we can eventually work down to the others as well.

Alternatively, we can finish the last remaining match-ups and call it a day.

Suggestions/comments?

 

[KAOSTAR]

Spacies are supposed to **** Mewtwo, but Taj and Iori have proven that it's not beyond the realm of possibility.

Zelda is always beatable.

they **** mewtwo. no questions asked.

imo no MU is impossible, but there are some highly unlikely. in reality, fox/falco should never lose to m2 at equal skill or spacie being better.

its always a happy day for m2 to win that one.


teh icy-what was the consensus on m2 yoshi?


imo we should finish the chart first.

 

[N64]

in my experience of playing the matchup a number of times vs. skler, and a few matches vs. other notable links (lord hdl and germ at pound, specifically), and also watching axe play a number of matches vs. lord hdl, it feels pretty even. Link is decently good at keeping pika out, but pika punishes harder in the matchup.

I have less experience vs. young links, but theory makes me believe it's also pretty even. The problem young link has is when he gets knocked off (which he will because of his low weight) he often has a hard time getting back against pika, as pika has so many edgeguarding options. YL however has a little better projectile game (than link) and can follow up on projectiles better. Overall he has a little better offense with a little worse defense (than link), so a lot of the matchup is trading blows, short combos, and pika chasing yl (which he can do alright with his mobility).

I see YL vs Pika as even, but it could very well be slightly advantage one way or the other.

 

[Divinokage]

Actually something interesting I noticed: each player has only lost to one player outside of the Top 5 in recent times: Mango to Kage, Hungrybox to DrPP (unless you also count Colbol at their smaller tournies), M2K to Zhu, Armada to SS and Amsah to Lucky. Heh..

New school all day. haha. =)

 

[SleepyK]

they just horribly outplay their opponents, and we already knew that. having to outplay your opponent to win is what makes a bad matchup in the first place.

trust me, GAW and kirby want nothing to do with zelda if they can help it.

omg thanks. gnw v zelda is stupid.

 

[rhan]

Well right now it's Pikachu > Young Link, so changing it to equal would at least be one step in the right direction.

in my experience of playing the matchup a number of times vs. skler, and a few matches vs. other notable links (lord hdl and germ at pound, specifically), and also watching axe play a number of matches vs. lord hdl, it feels pretty even. Link is decently good at keeping pika out, but pika punishes harder in the matchup.

I have less experience vs. young links, but theory makes me believe it's also pretty even. The problem young link has is when he gets knocked off (which he will because of his low weight) he often has a hard time getting back against pika, as pika has so many edgeguarding options. YL however has a little better projectile game (than link) and can follow up on projectiles better. Overall he has a little better offense with a little worse defense (than link), so a lot of the matchup is trading blows, short combos, and pika chasing yl (which he can do alright with his mobility).

I see YL vs Pika as even, but it could very well be slightly advantage one way or the other.

I can agree on the matchup against Young Link being even. Honestly I don't see either character having the advantage against one another. Pika has a **** ton of options against Young Link and vise versa.

 

[ChivalRuse]

they **** mewtwo. no questions asked.

imo no MU is impossible, but there are some highly unlikely. in reality, fox/falco should never lose to m2 at equal skill or spacie being better.

its always a happy day for m2 to win that one.

Sorry. Lately I've been suffering from the Axe Effect (that is, the proclivity to overrate low tiers).

 

[Alphicans]

I find y.link vs pikachu pretty **** hard. Pikachu > y.link seems right to me, but it looks like most people disagree. Maybe I have a match-up problem :\.

 

[t3h Icy]

Updated:
Mewtwo > Zelda
Mr.G&W >> Kirby
Peach > Kirby
Zelda > Mr.G&W

I completely changed the look of the chart, and it's not fantastically pretty quite yet, but we're going to begin converting the advantages into numbers, starting with Fox, Sheik, Falco, Marth and Jigglypuff against one another only.

Again, the looks aren't great but once we get numbers in, I'll be using these...

...which should look fine overall. I made the chart more simplistic rather than gradients and unnecessary pretty stuff. (Note: the colours currently used compared to the numerical colours are exaggerated for now to differentiate the advantages).

Also with the hybrid, it would be difficult to continue with the data tables for now, so I'm not going to use them until later. The order of the characters will remain the same for awhile.

This is all a bit of a lay down all at once, but hopefully we can start getting some precision into the chart. =)

So let's begin the top 5 characters. =)

 

[Winston]

No update on Luigi's matchups?

Luigi < Fox instead of <<
Luigi < Jiggs instead of <<

a bit more controversial is Luigi < Marth, so it's probably okay to keep that as << for now, but I feel like Marth is a step down in difficulty for Luigi from Sheik and Falco. If anyone wants to argue/discuss that I'd be happy to write why I think it's not so bad for Luigi.

 

[SleepyK]

i still think gnw zelda is at least +2 zelda. same arguments.

 

[john!]

...why are we converting to numbers? can we at least get an idea of whether people want to convert to numbers? personally i think we're fine as is, or with one more symbol for the closer matchups. it seems like you're just looking to stimulate more discussion.

if you really insist on using numbers though, just divide your 21 numbers into 7 sections, and only allow people to pick one of the 3 choices based on what's already on the chart. otherwise we'd have endless arguments all over again.

 

[Lovage]

numbers **** those hungry alligators blow

 

[t3h Icy]

...why are we converting to numbers? can we at least get an idea of whether people want to convert to numbers? personally i think we're fine as is, or with one more symbol for the closer matchups. it seems like you're just looking to stimulate more discussion.

if you really insist on using numbers though, just divide your 21 numbers into 7 sections, and only allow people to pick one of the 3 choices based on what's already on the chart. otherwise we'd have endless arguments all over again.

The majority of the people that have come into the thread suggested numbers, and many of the pro players offered their opinions in numbers. Numbers are ultimately better, but I didn't want to just continue off of Worldjem's, but instead actually get an up-to-date chart completed. Also, whether numbers happen or not, the community has a chart now that's at least fairly accurate. Hopefully, we can now be more precise, particularly for Top Tiers, and perhaps the lower ones eventually too.

We have a match-up chart as a reference now and hopefully we can continue with the success so far and improve it more. If not, we still have the chart as a hybrid if people can't determine Pikachu/Bowser, etc.

Also thanks to everyone that has helped contribute so far. <3

 

[VGmasta]

Advantage System Chart Contributors
vgmastaricky

My name's under this, nice!

And I'm lovin' the new look of the Advantage System Chart. I vote we keep this look.

...why are we converting to numbers? can we at least get an idea of whether people want to convert to numbers? personally i think we're fine as is, or with one more symbol for the closer matchups. it seems like you're just looking to stimulate more discussion.

if you really insist on using numbers though, just divide your 21 numbers into 7 sections, and only allow people to pick one of the 3 choices based on what's already on the chart. otherwise we'd have endless arguments all over again.

I can kinda see where john! is going with this. Converting to numbers would be very interesting, but quite a challenge because there would be so many different players that feel strongly about their matchups. For example, we'd probably wind up with different groups of people that believe one matchup to be even/evenish. They would probably narrow it down to like two or three different ratios (for example: 50-50, 55-45, and 40-60). At that point, the room would probably go back and forth page after page as to why they believe the matchup is whatever ratio they support. At the very least, we'd all get a lot more insight on every matchup since people will probably post more specifics.

I'm perfectly fine with converting to 0-100 though. Certainly doubt it'll happen with just a snap of a finger though is all I'm sayin'. The Advantage System Chart is enough reference for me.

 

[Laijin]

Still highly bothered by YL vs Falco than YL vs Fox. YL CLEARLY has an easier time with Falco.

And wtf is this ****? Zelda loses to Mewtwo? Really?
Thats bull**** man and you KNOW ITS BS.
Zelda is a MUCH MUCH MUCH better character than the pure garbage that is Mewtwo and there is no way Mewtwo has the advantage in that match up.

Reasons why:
1. Zelda can deal with almost any approach mewtwo has due to the fact she outranges most of his moves(The safest thing he can do is probably b-air?).
2. Her reflector deals with any projectile attacks this dude might do.
3. Since he is big and heavy, a lot of characters have trouble killing him. This is no problem for Zelda since her killing power is as good as Ganon's. She can kill easily with b-air and f-air.

I honestly can't imagine a really good Zelda losing to a Mewtwo on equal skill level. I just can't.



Also. I agree with Sheik's match ups for the most part. Sheik vs Jiggs is dead even though. Sheiks approaches are much better than Jigglypuff's approaches plus she can camp her with needles. Sheik's b-air has more range than all of Jigg's aerials, so therefore she can effectively out range her always when it comes to aerial combat. Tilts take care of any air-ground approach Jiggs might do. It used to be believed that Sheik was a soft counter to Jiggs, but because of HBox and Mango, this is more so just plain even at worst. Theres no way Jiggs has a clear advantage in this match up

 

[SleepyK]

3. Since he is big and heavy, a lot of characters have trouble killing him. This is no problem for Zelda since her killing power is as good as Ganon's. She can kill easily with b-air and f-air.

what he's fat but he's so light who has trouble killing mewtwo? at worst maybe other low tiers but come on

 

[CloneHat]

what he's fat but he's so light who has trouble killing mewtwo? at worst maybe other low tiers but come on

He's right, M2 is both light and floaty. His big model just gets more damage racked up on him.

 

[Laijin]

what he's fat but he's so light who has trouble killing mewtwo? at worst maybe other low tiers but come on

I was thinking of other low tiers..

 

[KAOSTAR]

Still highly bothered by YL vs Falco than YL vs Fox. YL CLEARLY has an easier time with Falco.

And wtf is this ****? Zelda loses to Mewtwo? Really?
Thats bull**** man and you KNOW ITS BS.
Zelda is a MUCH MUCH MUCH better character than the pure garbage that is Mewtwo and there is no way Mewtwo has the advantage in that match up.

Reasons why:
1. Zelda can deal with almost any approach mewtwo has due to the fact she outranges most of his moves(The safest thing he can do is probably b-air?).
2. Her reflector deals with any projectile attacks this dude might do.
3. Since he is big and heavy, a lot of characters have trouble killing him. This is no problem for Zelda since her killing power is as good as Ganon's. She can kill easily with b-air and f-air.

I honestly can't imagine a really good Zelda losing to a Mewtwo on equal skill level. I just can't.



Also. I agree with Sheik's match ups for the most part. Sheik vs Jiggs is dead even though. Sheiks approaches are much better than Jigglypuff's approaches plus she can camp her with needles. Sheik's b-air has more range than all of Jigg's aerials, so therefore she can effectively out range her always when it comes to aerial combat. Tilts take care of any air-ground approach Jiggs might do. It used to be believed that Sheik was a soft counter to Jiggs, but because of HBox and Mango, this is more so just plain even at worst. Theres no way Jiggs has a clear advantage in this match up

zelda is better, but that means nothing in head to head (well you know). first, you are completely wrong.

you obviously don't know the MU. all pro zelda has said is mewtwo is big! there are much better arguments from m2 side along with more credible testimony.

just give up.

http://www.smashboards.com/group.php?groupid=2232

 

[CloneHat]

zelda is better, but that means nothing in head to head (well you know). first, you are completely wrong.

you obviously don't know the MU. all pro zelda has said is mewtwo is big! there are much better arguments from m2 side along with more credible testimony.

just give up.

http://www.smashboards.com/group.php?groupid=2232

That's not an argument, you just said he was wrong.

 

[Deleted member]

it's true, mewtwo vs zelda was already covered some time ago and it was concluded that mewtwo should win very slightly for his ability to control tempo in the match. I'm not sure if it's better as a +1 or = though, I'd probably keep it closer to = for the MU. A +1 indicates a noticeable advantage, although a slight one, and to be frank mewtwo's advantage is barely noticeable if at all.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10400935&postcount=74

 

[KAOSTAR]

+ 1 imo. zelda will become frustrated with a patient m2, by nature there is nothing she can do.

you can make zelda approach. m2 has control, its just how much a player utilizes.

clone-what if I just used things that aren't true, would you even bother-for a very old argument.

the entire m2 vs zelda debate is in that group. with most stuff from the troll thread.

 

[Laijin]

Whether a player becomes frustrated or not does not factor in match ups bro.

 

[rhan]

Still highly bothered by YL vs Falco than YL vs Fox. YL CLEARLY has an easier time with Falco.

Me and you have different views when it comes to this. I just don't get how Falco can be easier with is ultimate pressure game where Young Link can't do much of anything against his lasers. And then pillar combos are retardedly fustrating to get around. Falco's dair pretty much beats anything we have to throw at him.

At least Fox's moves don't have the hard stun that Falco's have. We're able to actually get bombs and such out on him which clearly gives us a fighting chance.

 

[KAOSTAR]

you are trying to argue that 3>4.

even if you have a point, you have nothing behind it ie a purpose.

m2 plus 1 zelda is pretty solid, zelda punishes hard, but she can't force anything-you have to give her the match.

 

[Roneblaster]

like the way the chart looks now

sheik >> falcon

 

[Merkuri]

Me and you have different views when it comes to this. I just don't get how Falco can be easier with is ultimate pressure game where Young Link can't do much of anything against his lasers. And then pillar combos are retardedly fustrating to get around. Falco's dair pretty much beats anything we have to throw at him.

At least Fox's moves don't have the hard stun that Falco's have. We're able to actually get bombs and such out on him which clearly gives us a fighting chance.

I agree with this.

I also think that Falco has an easier time with Doc and Mario than Fox does, but I don't think I'm ready to take on that debate now

 

[t3h Icy]

I can kinda see where john! is going with this. Converting to numbers would be very interesting, but quite a challenge because there would be so many different players that feel strongly about their matchups. For example, we'd probably wind up with different groups of people that believe one matchup to be even/evenish. They would probably narrow it down to like two or three different ratios (for example: 50-50, 55-45, and 40-60). At that point, the room would probably go back and forth page after page as to why they believe the matchup is whatever ratio they support. At the very least, we'd all get a lot more insight on every matchup since people will probably post more specifics.

I'm perfectly fine with converting to 0-100 though. Certainly doubt it'll happen with just a snap of a finger though is all I'm sayin'. The Advantage System Chart is enough reference for me.

Again, even if something doesn't work out, we always have the advantage value in place already, so the match-up will still be correct, but just not super precise, which is what we'd be aiming for. I also doubt many of the match-ups will be completed, mainly Low/Bottom Tiers against one another.

Also I likely won't be changing the visuals of the chart again for awhile, and if you like how it looks now, wait until the numbers start slowly going in; it'll look fantastic. ^_^

So, the 10 match-ups right now for discussion are:

Falco vs Fox
Falco vs Jigglypuff
Falco vs Marth
Falco vs Sheik
Fox vs Jigglypuff
Fox vs Marth
Fox vs Sheik
Jigglypuff vs Marth
Jigglypuff vs Sheik
Marth vs Sheik

We can definitely continue using advantages for lower tiers if people feel they're incorrect, but can't quite give them a numerical value, but for now, let's get the top 5 finished. =)

 

[Lovage]

i've come to the conclusion falco vs. fox isn't as bad as i used to think, its just mangos too fuking good at this game and playing him every week is demoralizing LOL

fox falco 50:50
fox puff 55:45

fox marth 50:50
fox sheik 55:45

 

[Deleted member]

m2 plus 1 zelda is pretty solid, zelda punishes hard, but she can't force anything-you have to give her the match.

zelda doesn't have to force anything, she's a fairly static character to begin with. it's a lot closer to even than it is to a +1. mewtwo's advantage is marginal at best.

 

[mhenlo]

i used to play zelda and i havent vsed a lot of mewtwos and im not the greatest player but imo the match up was 55:45 in favor of mewtwo

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

zelda is better, but that means nothing in head to head (well you know). first, you are completely wrong.

you obviously don't know the MU. all pro zelda has said is mewtwo is big! there are much better arguments from m2 side along with more credible testimony.

just give up.

http://www.smashboards.com/group.php?groupid=2232

great argument bro

 

[t3h Icy]

In my not-superbly-educated opinion:

Falco 50:50 Sheik
Fox 55:45 Sheik
Jigglypuff 50:50 Falco
Jigglypuff 45:55 Fox
Jigglypuff 50:50 Marth
Jigglypuff 55:45 Sheik
Marth 45:55 Sheik