Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[Skler]

There's a character who actually has an issue with shadowballs?

I have never witnessed a match where I thought "wow those shadowballs sure did **** up the other player." It's usually more like "wow those shadowballs sure are pathetic."

What a terrible projectile (unless charged, charged shadowballs are SO UNPREDICTABLE, which is why M2 is better than Samus).

 

[KAOSTAR]

There's a character who actually has an issue with shadowballs?

I have never witnessed a match where I thought "wow those shadowballs sure did **** up the other player." It's usually more like "wow those shadowballs sure are pathetic."

What a terrible projectile (unless charged, charged shadowballs are SO UNPREDICTABLE, which is why M2 is better than Samus).

Shadow balls are pretty aight. Obviously not the best, but it has alot of uses. Things that are actually useful. Its one of those pocketknife projectiles.

There are SEVERAL character who have a hard time dealing with SBs.

Its also better than charge shot for sure-
25 damage[MAX] which is = to CS
can be charged in the air
faster rate of fire tho it travels slower
Can be used to turn around in the air
Has an active hitbox while charging.
harder to dodge-BAd idea to counter, or airdodge, or sidestep
harder to powershield due to random
Less frames of hitlag meaning you cannot DI it as easily or as well.

G&W has issues against baby shadow balls and can't recover m2, whereas m2 ***** recovering G&W's. M2 in air << G&W... for real... but m2 dtilt/grabs do a lot to G&W.

imo

m2 > G&W on FD/PS/DL64

= on battlefield?

G&W > m2 FoD/YS (maybe even >> O.o)

but with stage striking m2 is guarenteed no FoD or YS first match. I find it to be pretty even, the tail is actually good at comboing G&W, though G&W can get a fair > nair in a lot in mid low %'s

Screw m2 haha

ehh .

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Sveet, I understand your point and you're right about it, but you appear to not know what "defensive" means. you're using it to mean something like "evasive," and it's very confusing. yes, CF has a much better running away and evading attacks game than other players, but that's not really defense.

moving forward: attacking, approaching, offense
moving backward: defending, retreating, defense

unless you play sheik or falco, the game usually follows a sort of chase and be chased mentality. falcon excels at this.


also yeah, kk sheik can run away too DUH.

There's a character who actually has an issue with shadowballs?

I have never witnessed a match where I thought "wow those shadowballs sure did **** up the other player." It's usually more like "wow those shadowballs sure are pathetic."

What a terrible projectile (unless charged, charged shadowballs are SO UNPREDICTABLE, which is why M2 is better than Samus).

so true

There are SEVERAL character who have a hard time dealing with SBs.

like whom?

 

[KAOSTAR]

@Sveet-Its not worth my time to explain. You clearly already have a bias against it, and dont really understand its purpose.

No matter what I say you are just gonna say jump over it or something like that.

LOL @ defending=defense. Sveet is brilliant. Arent those attacks you are throwing out tho? Does not compute, what if you jump straight up and aerial, what are you doing then?

 

[JPOBS]

lol at the notion that purely running away is a good "defense"
that strategy alone loses to like half the cast simply based on them having projectiles. even crappy ones like links boomerang/bombs can hit a evasive falcon.

real defense is things like having a beast CC game, monster range/priority of safe moves that dont require much commitment (possibly retreating), and having awesome options out of sheild.
all of those > run away

 

[otg]

Kaostar, all he asked was which characters have a hard time dealing with Shadowballs? I think thats a completely reasonable thing to ask. You don't need to give a detailed explanation for each character, I think we all would just really appreciate a list to get an idea of who cna't deal with them

 

[Captain Charisma]

your samus match-up chart isnt really accurate

you should ask more samus players...

samus -2 falcon if not -3
samus -1 falco not even for sure
samus -2 sheik
samus -2 marth

 

[Wenbobular]

Yeah dude ... Samus is just sooooo bad ...
...~_~

 

[Captain Charisma]

against falcon yes

 

[Lovage]

holy **** captain charisma

 

[Captain Charisma]

omg Lovage

 

[ChivalRuse]

you should ask more samus players...

I completely agree. HugS is not even a top level Samus player. He has no right to tell us that Falcon-Samus is an even matchup!

 

[KAOSTAR]

@ Otg Lol thats fine, I just really didnt get that impression. There was a huge movement saying sb were completely ineffective, I just assumed there would be no level ground. He also "quoted for truth" sklers response to cactuarz saying somebody cant deal with SBs.

Bowser
Zelda
DK
Kirby
ganon
------
Yoshi
Roy

 

[V3ctorMan]

@ Otg Lol thats fine, I just really didnt get that impression. There was a huge movement saying sb were completely ineffective, I just assumed there would be no level ground. He also "quoted for truth" sklers response to cactuarz saying somebody cant deal with SBs.

Its not perfect but its ok.

Only the first group has a hard time dealing with this to where they could lose the match if I just threw em and waited for them to commit to something.[even ganon, just gettin hit is toooo much of a set back, and he can stop alot of approaches with jab or ftilt]

Characters that have the most difficulty are pretty much the slower ones or ones that lack approaches. This set of characters you can throw Sbs and they put m2 in a really good position. They either lack decent approaches, . Yoshi is in there but he is a bit faster and can use the super armor when he wants to attack but if you force him to shield you are at an adv cuz he cant attack out of it.

Bowser
Zelda
DK
Kirby
ganon
------
Yoshi
Roy

Hey Kaos! ^^, As a Mewtwo, and new found Yoshi player, I agree mostly with your post just now, however, this is only my opinion, but I do not believe Yoshi has any sort of trouble approaching the SB.., only drawback is, that Yoshi will absorb the hit to get the desired results you want.. As for the not being able to attack out of shield, as you've stated before there is the superarmor, which enables you to attack OoS if the situation arises, and given the opportunity. Granted, pulling off superarmor tactics, don't happen very often in matches, but still Yoshi's unique versatility, I've never had trouble bypassing/approaching shadowballs, against Taj's or any Mewtwo I've played against ^^

Just my thoughts...

AND umm yeah btw.. did you guys know??

Yoshi's pretty awesome!.. LIKE REALLY! <3 ^^

 

[KAOSTAR]

Yea I feel it. I actually posted more details but for sake of nobody really caring I only sent it to otg since he was the one who asked for them.


Edit: lol, actually thats the unfinished while still in editing. but I think we are on the same page here. You throw em, but yoshi can bust thru em. Rack up that dmg tho.

 

[Roneblaster]

Falcon is not >>> Samus and probably not >>

 

[KAOSTAR]

its clearly falcon>>>>>samus lol

 

[Roneblaster]

all characters >>> Falcon

Doc >>> all characters.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Sheik beats Doc.

Like, Sheik > Doc. It's actually pretty close to even but Doc players just suck at the matchup. I think Japan actually was close to the mark on that one.

Same with Mario. Doc's CG and Bair being better is more important than F-smash. Cape hitting below is also really important.

 

[Roneblaster]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nCX-PhAYXM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0ID6naTAlU

i miss jona

 

[t3h Icy]

Mewtwo > Kirby
Mewtwo = Yoshi

Jigglypuff > Luigi
Link > Kirby
Link = Pikachu
Peach >> Yoshi
Pikachu > Ness
Pikachu > Roy
Pikachu > Zelda
Samus > Mr.G&W
Samus >> Yoshi
Yoshi > Pichu
Zelda = Mr.G&W

Falcon >> Kirby
DK > Ness
Kirby > Ness
Marth > Luigi
Mewtwo > Zelda
Mr.G&W >> Kirby
Pichu > Kirby
Pikachu > Kirby
Pikachu = Young Link
Young Link > Kirby
Young Link > Roy
Zelda >> Kirby

 

[giuocob]

Can I get some more opinions on Fox > Luigi?

 

[BunBun]

Is it time to discuss bottom 14 block against the top yet?

 

[t3h Icy]

I'd rather get the above finished first, but nobody has anything to say about them.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Y. Link >> Kirby. His spam game is just too good and there's not enough small stages to force him into a close range game so it's just alot of chasing, dodging and inevitably getting hit. Y.Link's spam is enough to pretty much shut kirby down.

 

[BunBun]

I agree with PR.


Also, I have no idea about Kirby > Ness. Does anyone?

Kirby > Pichu, at least. Dthrow techchase is god tier, and back air is pretty darn good as well. It's probably more like Kirby >> Pichu now.

Falcon >> Kirby at least.

 

[Shadow Huan]

coming in a page late or so I'd say that M2 = G&W. Overall M2 ***** G&W in the air, esp when G&W is above him; a spaced Uair will hit through all of G&W's aireals. on the ground i'd actually give it to G&W. all of M2's tilts "Clink" or are outprioritized. Mewtwo's saved from being totally ***** by having more ground range, combos off of grabs, and a much better projectile. with stage striking ect... yeah i'd say it's even.

Now Bowser vs Mewtwo is Mewtwo > Bowser I'd say, but really REALLY close and probably stage dependant. I don't play the Boozer in my area enough to say more than that.

EDIT a quote from Gimpyfish lol.

but i think mewtwo is probably a little bit better than bowser once you get to the extreme top echelon of play (e.g. taj) - but until then bowser clearly outclasses mewtwo

 

[Kanelol]

Mewtwo = Yoshi

dude what

/10dudewhats

 

[TheManaLord]

this chart sucks ****

and by four astericks i mean a long sweaty veiny shaft

 

[john!]

i'm fairly sure g&w has at least a slight advantage on mewtwo. why do you say mewtwo ***** g&w in the air? what attack can beat his fair?

on the ground, it seems that dtilt and dair shield poke often. g&w can stop many of mewtwo's approaches. if mewtwo tries for a charged shadow ball then g&w can bucket it from long range, or just... ftilt or fsmash or jab it lol.

mewtwo can get hit out of sweetspotting the ledge during his recovery with g&w's dtilt. a g&w that knows how to sweetspot will not get hit by mewtwo's dsmash ledgeguard.

as someone said earlier, mewtwo is so fat that he's easy bait for g&w's giant hitboxes. yeah mewtwo can kill g&w early out of grab, but g&w doesn't have killing problems either.

i'd be interested in hearing how a good mewtwo would approach this matchup, because i can see this being an easy one for g&w. i beat a pretty good mewtwo in a mm a few months ago.

@manalord: you couldn't do any better if you tried.

 

[TheManaLord]

This is a matchup chart, not a democracy. But ******* like you seem to think otherwise!

 

[Cactuarz]

on the ground, it seems that dtilt and dair shield poke often. g&w can stop many of mewtwo's approaches. if mewtwo tries for a charged shadow ball then g&w can bucket it from long range, or just... ftilt or fsmash or jab it lol.

no... if G&W buckets shadowballs G&W can get hit still if the ball goes up, if it doesn't it puts him in so much lag it's not even worth it... also m2 can sheild poke G&W on accident haha.

mewtwo can get hit out of sweetspotting the ledge during his recovery with g&w's dtilt. a g&w that knows how to sweetspot will not get hit by mewtwo's dsmash ledgeguard.

M2 shouldn't NEED to up b to recover, and if he does you can tech G&W's dtilt. If G&W is going for a sweet spot ledge hog is great...

I find it to be a really even matchup that is COMPLETELY dependent on levels

 

[Divinokage]

this chart sucks ****

and by four astericks i mean a long sweaty veiny shaft

Because we all know that's what you like.

 

[TheManaLord]

good one kaGAY

 

[KAOSTAR]

Ill say M2=G&W but With a solid argument I would give G dub the advantage.

LOL I aint readin all of that mumbo jumbo that equates to the length of my M2>Dk post.

M2>yoshi
M2>kirby
M2>bowser <----Ill take YS ftw plz. I dont think its really all that close.

for certain. ^

M2 ? G&W--I have to admit that G dub is a better character than M2.

@john-Dsmash is never my primary edgegauard. I go off stage whenever I can. If you drop low im just gonna super ultra ninja cookies and use ledge inv to hit you if you make it above stage height.

R u sure g dub and punish m2s sweet spot?

M2 loses in the air to g dub like he does with most characters, nothing, just g dub is a ****ter character than others. next subject.

Nair and charged sb get at his shield. fair and upthrow and uair are killers, on top of good edgeguarding.

M2 has a longer d tilt and its a bit faster. doesnt matter tho, they clank at closer range.

M2 has more combos but g w has combos as well. kill moves off throw for both characters.

Bucket is a gamble when trying to grab a full charged sb.

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

i swore in recent times it is now: sheik = icies. why still the -1?

 

[THeDarKnesS]

this chart sucks ****

and by four astericks i mean a long sweaty veiny shaft

Lol, this we agree on. People just say **** without being able to provide any sort of logic or explanation. Especially in regards to things of which they no not of.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Because we all know that's what you like.

good one kaGAY

XD one of these days kage is gonna stop posting cause we never stop bashing him

 

[THeDarKnesS]

Kage will probably just take the warrior out on yo ***.

 

[Divinokage]

I don't really care what anyone says, i can destroy you all anyways lol.