Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[ChivalRuse]

You overlooked Peef's post about IHSB beating Darkrain. I'd like to see you find a way around that generalization.

Edit: Got ninja'd.

 

[Merkuri]

lets see how he handles this

What tournament did this happen at? I just searched the tournament results and regional zones boards and I couldn't find any information on this.

 

[PEEF!]

Reposting because it was at the bottom of the last page:

IHSB just beat Darkrain.

It happened at Intimikill this weekend. Results will be up soon enough.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

How many people who are posting in this thread can actually tell me specifically what determines a favorable match-up and what doesn't? No its not quite as objective as "its harder for X than Y".

 

[thesage]

Ness does not in any way lose to Zelda. He ***** her. Hit her once with fair and then run away and Zelda will never catch you. Just run away and platform camp like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTNaAUJZz5k

He combos her with fair really well. Uair sends her into the air and makes her vulnerable to juggles.

They both edgeguard each other really well.

Then again, when has a notable ness player played a notable zelda player? Never so... =/

As long as Ness keeps the lead he wins. He has a much easier time getting and keeping the lead than Zelda does.

 

[JPOBS]

i pretty much agree with the idea that has been thrown around the last couple pages that as you approach top level play, more matchups tend to be more even. simply because top level mid-low tier players will make few mistakes, and be practised in the ways of maximizing the few oppotunities they do get, to the point where matchups like falcon vs samus can be argued as even quite easily, and it really makes most of this discussion trivial as TML has said.

 

[N64]

Low tier mains win matchups they shouldn't primarily because of matchup inexperience from their opponents, or skill level differences. This is outside of pure matchup theorycraft, but may have its place in this chart, as at least the first reason still has some influence in current top level play (and we're assuming the second isn't applicable for the purpose of this chart).

Bad characters are bad, and though they may have favorable matchups with chars above them, this whole "as you approach top levels of play matchups become even" nonsense is just silly. Being better with a character opens up more options and situational knowledge to use against your opponent, but that applies to both characters/players, and being better with a char is not going to increase your moves' damage/range/duration/knockback/anything that would change a matchup. New/difficult ATs may help, but again this applies to both chars and is usually on a matchup by matchup basis, and not a compelling argument for "this makes all matchups even."

Otherwise, i haven't heard any especially convincing arguments for the case as a whole.

 

[BunBun]

That's the only reason anyone ever loses to Kirby at any level of play. Almost everything written in any matchup forum about it says "do moves and he can't hit you lolkirby oh yeah backair", which is just completely wrong and lets us abuse it.

 

[KirbyKaze]

That's the only reason anyone ever loses to Kirby at any level of play. Almost everything written in any matchup forum about it says "do moves and he can't hit you lolkirby oh yeah backair", which is just completely wrong and lets us abuse it.

I find it's more because they get hit by swallows or don't DI out of like anything he does and then they're like WHOAMAGOD BAIR COMBOS TO BAIR U-TILT COMBOS TO U-TILT U-TILT COMBOS TO BAIR WHOAMAGOD INFINITE COMBO WTF I CAN'T GRAB THIS GUY WHY CAN'T I GRAB HIM

If people were smart they'd just camp Kirby and play defense and stare deep into his eyes until he breaks down sobbing over his lack of aerial mobility and approach and his general lack of, well, everything, really.

 

[thesage]

Kirby has good grab range and a possible tech chase with d-throw...

He still sucks though.

 

[idea]

Reposting because it was at the bottom of the last page:

IHSB just beat Darkrain.

It happened at Intimikill this weekend. Results will be up soon enough.

when those videos come out that's going to be one of my favourite sets :O

 

[t3h Icy]

Okay I'm back. This is what I've gathered from the last few pages.

DK > Samus
Falcon = Samus
Jigglypuff > Samus
Samus >> Yoshi
Samus = Zelda

And these need more discussion:

DK > Luigi
Link > Samus
Marth >> Samus
Peach > Samus
Samus > Doc
Samus > Falco
Samus > Mario
Samus > Pikachu
Sheik > Samus

Also N64 is right about match-up inexperience. Against low tiers or just particular characters the player isn't used to fighting, they won't know what to approach with, what to avoid, how to DI, etc, etc. To be at an even higher level with your character, you have to know how to slay lower tiered characters the way they should be beaten.

I actually took a game off a Fox with my Yoshi this weekend, because of exactly that.

 

[HugS™]

Which is the only times Hugs as beat SS since 2008. SS was simply playing bad that day, and the next two sets they played SS 6-0'd him(and no they were not all a 1 stock); since Hugs ended his retirement the score 5-2 in SS's favor if I remember correctly. The next time they play rest assured that Jeff is going to beat him quite badly again(sorry Hugs )

It's the only time I have beaten SS since 2008 because I haven't been playing from 2008 up until late 2009. I didn't have my controller @ CGC 16 when he beat me, and while he beat me fair and square given the circumstances, borrowing a controller is like making a Counter Strike player suddenly play on a new mouse sensitivity. He also beat me at my first out of region event and at my first out of state event since my return, which completed a 2 year hiatus from such OOS/OOR experiences. I didn't take these circumstances so seriously, and I expect our chances of winning to be equal for the next time we play.

Also, I'm so annoyed at people who call bad days for other players when I beat them. Did he tell you he had a bad day? If you're going off of your judgment, what's your definition of a bad day? Is it when a player beats Lucky in losers finals and gets 2nd at the tournament as he did @ CGC 15? Dang, I wish my bad days were that good.

The score is 4-2 since my return in his favor. 7-5 overall in my favor.

And if we're going to discredit wins because someone had a "bad day", well, let me know. I got a few excuses for why I lost my matches, and I'd love to take my losses off the record.

Things I've learned from posters recently:

1. Every top player I've beaten has had a bad day specifically when I have beaten them.
2. If people knew how to fight Samus, I'd never win a match.
3. Those who know how to fight Samus, but have never played me, will show those better players who have lost to me how to play the matchup correctly.
4. Despite having been a consistent top 20(national) calibur player for about 5 years now, and arguably a top 10(National) player at certain points throughout my career, I lack the experience necessary to know what to do when someone decides to play "gay" against me. No one has ever tried it.
5. I beat a lot of players that are better than me because my style is too unique and new. There aren't any videos of me online and 6 years of competitive smash isn't enough for people to get the "HugS picture". Just wait another 6 years, and everyone will know how easy it is to beat me.

****, did someone say I can't beat any top falcos? Are you kidding me?
Some of you are ridiculous.

FYI I'm in a bad mood because I got caught in fully stopped freeway traffic 4 miles from my house for 1.5 hours just now. So, i figured I'd take it out in a post.

 

[Deleted member]

Reposting because it was at the bottom of the last page:

IHSB just beat Darkrain.

It happened at Intimikill this weekend. Results will be up soon enough.

according to half the people in this topic, Samus now beats Falcon

 

[smakis]

not knowing low tier matchup is a pain, met a guy who mains marth but decided to go roy for the tourney, played the matchup as marth and stayed away from tippers while getting close, needless to say i got ***** by the sweetspot in the middle countless times ending in me barely losing the set

 

[PEEF!]

I agree that most matchups do become basically even at higher levels.

KK brought up Peach vs ICs. MacD and Fly trade sets fairly often now, and they are both at the top of their characters metagame.

This MU chart should be for mid level players, because the highest level of players dont give a sh*t about this chart and most of us will never be the top level. The only people who care about this chart are low and mid level players anyway.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

MacD has beaten me in all of the tournament sets we've ever played except for two.

 

[PEEF!]

MacD has beaten me in all of the tournament sets we've ever played except for two.

=X

Most matches are hella close, and it seem like he barely edges you most of the time.

 

[TheManaLord]

Darkrain is old. Fact: people lose reflexes and ability with age

get over it

@kk: ic is a novelty char who doesn't matter

the chart shouldn't be geared towards any "level". It should reflect the inherent game mechanics and the balance of each characters abilities in respect to eachother

it should also be measured better. Maybe a 0:100 format

 

[Merkuri]

It's the only time I have beaten SS since 2008 because I haven't been playing from 2008 up until late 2009. I didn't have my controller @ CGC 16 when he beat me, and while he beat me fair and square given the circumstances, borrowing a controller is like making a Counter Strike player suddenly play on a new mouse sensitivity. He also beat me at my first out of region event and at my first out of state event since my return, which completed a 2 year hiatus from such OOS/OOR experiences. I didn't take these circumstances so seriously, and I expect our chances of winning to be equal for the next time we play.

Also, I'm so annoyed at people who call bad days for other players when I beat them. Did he tell you he had a bad day? If you're going off of your judgment, what's your definition of a bad day? Is it when a player beats Lucky in losers finals and gets 2nd at the tournament as he did @ CGC 15? Dang, I wish my bad days were that good.

The score is 4-2 since my return in his favor. 7-5 overall in my favor.

And if we're going to discredit wins because someone had a "bad day", well, let me know. I got a few excuses for why I lost my matches, and I'd love to take my losses off the record.

Well the reason why I say that Silent Spectre must have been having a bad day when you beat him is because usually your sets aren't close. He's 6-0d you the last few times and that implies that the odds when you two play aren't anywhere near equal. For you to just somehow be able to dominate him on one day and one day only makes it seems as if he wasn't play well that day.

I agree that most matchups do become basically even at higher levels.

KK brought up Peach vs ICs. MacD and Fly trade sets fairly often now, and they are both at the top of their characters metagame.

This MU chart should be for mid level players, because the highest level of players dont give a sh*t about this chart and most of us will never be the top level. The only people who care about this chart are low and mid level players anyway.

Well quite a few top players post in here to say that they don't care about this chart is an exaggeration.

And this MU chart being for mid-level players is pointless because the mid-level players hardly care about games at the mid-level. Almost none of us in here go on youtube to watch mid-level matches, we go there to see top level pros play because that is what we're aspiring to become. Having this chart reflect the peak of the metagame incorporates everyone into the chart, if it reflects the mid-level then it pushes top-level and even mid/lower level players away from this chart.

 

[PEEF!]

Yeah the top level players already don't give a crap about this chart.

Some are posting in the thread just for the sake of sharing knowledge, but it isn't like they will refer to it.

PS: I always find myself looking at the exposed tit of that nappy headed ho in ur avatar. You should get a new picture because thats gross.

 

[Cosmo!]

Ness does not in any way lose to Zelda. He ***** her. Hit her once with fair and then run away and Zelda will never catch you. Just run away and platform camp like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTNaAUJZz5k

He combos her with fair really well. Uair sends her into the air and makes her vulnerable to juggles.

They both edgeguard each other really well.

Then again, when has a notable ness player played a notable zelda player? Never so... =/

As long as Ness keeps the lead he wins. He has a much easier time getting and keeping the lead than Zelda does.

I agree with this post
Ness > Zelda

 

[Pakman]

This is really old but Reik and Ryoko imo would be considered pretty advanced with Ness Zelda. And if you don't think so.... find a better video, jerk .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ij_dQfN_aOg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDX50M4ZUC0

 

[NJzFinest]

DK > Luigi

We spoke about this more then DK > Samus :O

Samus > Pikachu

We had N64 and ISHB put some good input this.

Sheik > Samus

Personally, I think everyone agrees with this haha. Maybe Vanz would say >>, but w/e.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I was also in support of Samus > Pikachu.

 

[PEEF!]

if >> means "disadvantage" as opposed to > meaning slight disadvantage, id say that Sheik>>Samus

Also, Samus=Falco, not Samus>Falco. I think Hugs is personally good at that MU, but Samus>Falco does not represent the character as a whole.

 

[NJzFinest]

Oh yeah lol. Didn't mean to forget about you Chiv, <333

 

[x After Dawn x]

lol samus isn't that bad, but I wasn't being serious when I said she was the best character in this game LOL

 

[ChivalRuse]

You're the best, NJz. Haha. ^_^

Anyway, concerning the Samus-Sheik matchup, I think people get too excited over dthrow -> slap. It's not exactly easy to grab Samus. Moreover, her powerful CC game makes tilt -> slap obsolete. Needles are admittedly pretty good, but they build up relatively piddly damage, and whenever Sheik opts to use them, she must be wary about making mistakes under missile pressure. Samus' defensive options are only amplified by Sheik's subpar approach. In short, this is by no means a cruise to victory match-up. Samus < Sheik.

 

[NJzFinest]

Also it's super annoying to get back on stage as Sheik with Samus waiting for you; her edgeguarding is pretty ghey.
You have to make sure you never miss DI on her dsmash since it can put you at a perfect length away from the stage for Samus.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Indeed, lol ... Samus' dsmash is soooo strong. X_X

 

[thesage]

Lol Pakman I forgot about those videos. But yea still Ness > Zelda.

A lot of Ness' low tier matchups are wrong but that's just one that's really wrong...

 

[TheManaLord]

Lmao Zelda beats ness easily

 

[KirbyKaze]

Actually, at high level that matchup approaches even.

 

[HugS™]

Merkuri, he has never 6-0'd me in his life. In fact, there's only one set where he has ever beaten me without taking a match loss and that was at CGC16 when I had left my controller 6 hours away back home.

I did the same to him a previous time, beating him 3-0 in winners @ CGC15. Get your facts straight dude, our sets are usually close and it usually goes to last match except for the time I didn't have a controller and got 3-0'd by SS and 3-0'd by Shroomed on the same day (johns).

Idk where these 6-0 scores are coming from.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Good ****, Hugo.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Youtube.

10youtubes

 

[t3h Icy]

Lol Pakman I forgot about those videos. But yea still Ness > Zelda.

A lot of Ness' low tier matchups are wrong but that's just one that's really wrong...

Yup, but we're working on it. I did try to contact Simna awhile back but I got ignored. -_-

the chart shouldn't be geared towards any "level". It should reflect the inherent game mechanics and the balance of each characters abilities in respect to eachother

This.

it should also be measured better. Maybe a 0:100 format

Again, once we're done all the characters, we'll make a hybrid for the top characters. Maybe if you're so anxious to have your glorious numbers that you should actually help. ;D

Yeah the top level players already don't give a crap about this chart.

I can't imagine they do, but it's nice as a reference for up-and-coming players and just for general knowledge.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I'm glad a lot of people are finally accepting my theory about matchups approaching even at the top level.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Match-ups don't approach even. Some characters have inherent advantages over other characters and those advantages never go away (assuming it's human level play and not frame perfect) no matter how smart both players are.

Think of it like the equation y = 2x-1/x+1; as x approaches infinite y, approaches 2. Maybe certain strategies are like constants and stop working as the players get better, but the way Marth outranges all of Pichu's moves is a coefficient.

KK brought up Peach vs ICs. MacD and Fly trade sets fairly often now, and they are both at the top of their characters metagame.

Wait until someone beats Cort...