~Marth's Match Ups~

[_Kadaj_]

Steel what do you think I was doing wrong vs luigi?

 

[Steel]

Uh, well regarding the tornado you gave him too much space. Look at the first match, every time he used it he was at a safe distance away to do so. It's a good way for Luigi to close the gap to get off some of his aerials/smashes.

Other than that there were just some times that you let him inside your sword too easily. if you want i can full critique later

 

[_Kadaj_]

Yea that'd be cool

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

lol.

You are funny.

Other way around my good man.

Edit: Steel leave Dedede vs Marth at 50/50 for now.

if you break his shield at 110% its 50/50

 

[Ulevo]

What are your proposed ratios for those matchups Ulevo?

For Ike and Link, it should definitely be 7:3. 6:4 is too lenient, particularly for Ike. Meta Knight I believe should stay at 6:4 Meta Knight. I'd like to see it get to 55:45 Meta Knight, but I'm willing to compensate for my bias on the match.

Still, I don't think it is that one sided, even if it is his worst match.

Ulevo MK is no where NEAR even lmao

"Silence, I kill you!" ~ Achmed the Dead Terrorist

<3

 

[Remzi]

I'm gonna go with Steel, Mk vs Math is not even close to that. He does everything you do, but better. It's like Marths worst nightmare.

 

[Ulevo]

I'm gonna go with Steel, Mk vs Math is not even close to that. He does everything you do, but better. It's like Marths worst nightmare.

That is too simplistic of a way of looking at it, and a common misconception. Meta Knight and Marth at the core of things are vastly different from each other. The main similarity between the two is spacing is key, and you can transfer from one to the other easily.

In either case, Marth has the tools to deal with some of Meta Knights strongest assets. I think these traits at least put him at 45:55 in theory, but 4:6 is much more reasonably in practice. 35:65 is going overboard.

 

[Steel]

Well don't just spew ratios at us, tell us why you think this is.

Either here or the MK thread, whichever you wish.

 

[Ulevo]

Well don't just spew ratios at us, tell us why you think this is.

Either here or the MK thread, whichever you wish.

I plan to at some point. I think you'd know that.

 

[_Kadaj_]

lol i agree with 60:40

 

[Remzi]

That is too simplistic of a way of looking at it, and a common misconception. Meta Knight and Marth at the core of things are vastly different from each other. The main similarity between the two is spacing is key, and you can transfer from one to the other easily.

In either case, Marth has the tools to deal with some of Meta Knights strongest assets. I think these traits at least put him at 45:55 in theory, but 4:6 is much more reasonably in practice. 35:65 is going overboard.

Please understand that I didnt just pull that out of my *** >_>

Metaknight counters pretty much everything Marth has. Let me explain:

Marth has one of the best pokes in the game, but MK's is faster and has better range. Of course I am referring to both of their dtilts, what is usually one of Marths strongest assets is rendered almost obsolete here.

Then there is Marth's crazy amazing gimping game, probably the second best in the game, but second to who? Metaknight of course. And not only can MK gimp you pretty easily, he nullifies Marth's gimping game with his untouchable recovery.

Another thing, Marth punishes very well, but MK has 0-lag on everything but his fsmash and drill rush (which he really shouldnt be using anyways) so there aren't really any openings for Marth to punish. On top of that, MK's quickness allows him to punish even BETTER. And since Marth has to throw out some risky attacks in order to kill, MK finds himself with a lot more oppurtunities to punish.

 

[Ulevo]

Please understand that I didnt just pull that out of my *** >_>

Metaknight counters pretty much everything Marth has. Let me explain:

Marth has one of the best pokes in the game, but MK's is faster and has better range. Of course I am referring to both of their dtilts, what is usually one of Marths strongest assets is rendered almost obsolete here.

Marths DTilt is rivaled in range only by Meta Knights own DTilt. You are normally able to beat the DTilt with your own if you time it properly. I have done it on many circumstances.

His other poking tool, FTilt, is inferior to Marths DTilt. Marths Fair, which Meta Knight cannot beat with his own, nullifies the threat of DTilt because you're aerial. Between DTilt and Fair, you can create a defensive system that prevents Meta Knight from using his poking tools effectively. His DTilt is a god send, but it doesn't help if you're short hopping all the time, and Meta Knight doesn't really have anything to stop you from doing that outside of maybe grounded Shuttle Loop and a FTilt, which is risky. Tornado will get beat by Dancing Blade or Dolphin Slash.

Then there is Marth's crazy amazing gimping game, probably the second best in the game, but second to who? Metaknight of course. And not only can MK gimp you pretty easily, he nullifies Marth's gimping game with his untouchable recovery.

Marth does not have a good gimping game. In fact, I'd argue his gimping game is less than adequate. Tippered aerials only aid characters in helping them return since they have high knock back and send upward as opposed to downward. Dair is very unsafe as well. In order to achieve a hitbox that can gimp appropriately, you have to use non-tipped attacks, which Marth should never be trying to do in any circumstance, especially off stage where he is most unsafe.

That point aside though, Marths recovery is quite bad, and Meta Knight can gimp him easily even with good DI due to this. I'll give you that.

Another thing, Marth punishes very well, but MK has 0-lag on everything but his fsmash and drill rush (which he really shouldnt be using anyways) so there aren't really any openings for Marth to punish. On top of that, MK's quickness allows him to punish even BETTER. And since Marth has to throw out some risky attacks in order to kill, MK finds himself with a lot more oppurtunities to punish.

Meta Knight does not have 0 lag on everything, and can be punished on many circumstances. Dolphin Slash and Dancing Blade are THE BEST moves in the game for punishing. Add in the fact that Meta Knights attacks have next to no stun on your shield, and you have a lot of exploits.

For the record, FSmash and Drill Rush are fantastic moves. FSmash hitbox is amazing good, and people assume it is a worse DSmash. I'd argue it's better, DSmash is just easier to use. Drill Rush is likely his overall safest recovery option, and there are a few techs with it if you can use it properly, such as canceling the ending lag into aerials or drilling at a 45 degree angle to trip the opponent, which can follow up to many things. Overall though, it's best use is recovery.

If it weren't for Marth having Dancing Blade AND Dolphin Slash, I would agree that Meta Knights sheer speed would make him better at punishment. I'd say they're even, OVERALL. They each have their separate departments where they excel at punishing.

The way to combat Meta Knight is to play safe, so you are not punished, which Marth CAN do. Meta Knight can't do all that much about you punishing him though in many instances, due to the statistics of the character. It just means that you as the Marth player have to at an adequate skill with your character so you play him correctly, otherwise your strategy won't work. The biggest place Marth loses is off the edge. This unfortunately means that even though Marth and Meta Knight are fairly even in their abilities to punish, Marths mistakes cost him more than Meta Knights do.

As for KO options, just because you can't throw out FSmashes everywhere doesn't mean you can't KO him reliably. Grab Release to Dolphin Slash/Fair near ledges work fine, as do UThrows if you're high up in the stage or if platforms interfere with the former and he's at high percent. Dolphin Slash is your main key here, you need to be intelligent on when to use it though. Certain attacks you can use it on, others you can't. If you learn which is which, you'll KO a lot more vs Meta Knight, rather than just relying on mind gaming him into a KO.

 

[Remzi]

I never said any of MK's other moves could beat out Marths d-tilt. Anyways, If you keep taking to the air you'll get punished by a whorenado or shuttle loop. Shuttle loop isn't risky, you can cancel all the lag into anything. And if the marth is aerial, he won't be DBing or DSing without taking a huge chance.

This is the FIRST time I've heard somebody say Marth's gimping game is sub-par. Even if you tip the attack off stage, they will lose much more distance than they would if they just floated along. And if use hit them when their double jump is already consumed, you can count them dead.

And yes, MK can gimp the **** out of Marth

You make a good point with their punishing, however I could argue that you don't really have much of a chance to use DB on MK. DS is pretty much your only chance to kill. And moves like dsmash have too much shield pushback so you can't DS OoS there. And there is no way Fsmash is better than dsmash. Just no way. Dsmash has very minimal startup lag, a great hitbox, has very little ending lag, and is safe on block. Fsmash has more range and knockback, but thats it.

IDK about Drill Rush, but if it's as good as you say, more power to him. That certainly doesn't help your argument here >_>


Now, a lot of your setups included grabbing MK. The problem is, a good MK won't get grabbed. There is so much MK can do to keep him self out of grab range and still ****. Otherwise Yoshi would probably have an advantage on him.

 

[Ulevo]

I never said any of MK's other moves could beat out Marths d-tilt. Anyways, If you keep taking to the air you'll get punished by a whorenado or shuttle loop. Shuttle loop isn't risky, you can cancel all the lag into anything. And if the marth is aerial, he won't be DBing or DSing without taking a huge chance.p

There isn't anything stopping you from DSing the Tornado once it approaches you. Meta Knight doesn't have time to retreat with it to avoid being hit if you use it. Shuttle Loop is less likely to happen because Meta Knight needs to be right in your face in order for it to work, which is unlikely to happen anyway.

This is the FIRST time I've heard somebody say Marth's gimping game is sub-par. Even if you tip the attack off stage, they will lose much more distance than they would if they just floated along. And if use hit them when their double jump is already consumed, you can count them dead.

Marth can't follow characters off stage very well. He doesn't have the recovery to make it back without putting himself at risk, and his attacks do not knock opponents back in a gimping fashion anymore than any other characters simple aerials would. Eating double jumps is not a Marth exclusive advantage either. Most likely if you lose your double jump and you don't have an amazing Up B, you're dead no matter who gimped you. He is simply not good at it at all.

You make a good point with their punishing, however I could argue that you don't really have much of a chance to use DB on MK. DS is pretty much your only chance to kill. And moves like dsmash have too much shield pushback so you can't DS OoS there. And there is no way Fsmash is better than dsmash. Just no way. Dsmash has very minimal startup lag, a great hitbox, has very little ending lag, and is safe on block. Fsmash has more range and knockback, but thats it.

How do you not have chances to use Dancing Blade on Meta Knight? Meta Knight has to move past your defense. And once he does, he has to rely on OOS options and spot dodges, along with DSmash to best you. Dancing Blade is an answer to almost all of these tactics, and a very effective one too. Did you know Dancing Blade has more range than Meta Knights Fair? Hell, even if you shield a DSmash from Meta Knight as opposed to PS or Sidestep, the reach is longer enough for you to punish Meta Knight after dropping the shield, despite the pushback from the DSmash.

DS is not the only option to kill. You have upward methods as well, and Fair at higher percents will kill if near the edges. Fair is a fairly safe option, it is guaranteed out of a Grab Release (so is DS), and Marth has total advantage when below Meta Knight.

Also, FSmash is safer on block than DSmash. It has more range, better overall priority due to the overall size (vertical, not just horizontal, it prevents short hops while DSmash does not), and less lag at the end. It does more damage, has higher knock back, and you can even stutter step it. The ONLY advantage DSmash has over FSmash is the start up lag is less. That is it. Even hitting on both sides isn't a real advantage, as it cost you little no extra frames to just turn around and use the move, and you're wasting frames by hitting on both sides when you only need to hit one target. The DSmash is just a quick fix. Don't get me wrong, it's good, and very abuseable, but it's overall application is much less, and it's severely overrated by most players.

IDK about Drill Rush, but if it's as good as you say, more power to him. That certainly doesn't help your argument here >_>

Merely supporting my opinion, I'm not trying to win an argument with regards to that move.

Now, a lot of your setups included grabbing MK. The problem is, a good MK won't get grabbed. There is so much MK can do to keep him self out of grab range and still ****. Otherwise Yoshi would probably have an advantage on him.

The set ups involved for grabbed Meta Knight are the Grab Release set ups, the DThrow to FSmash at very low percents, and the UThrows. There are many other tactics to fight Meta Knight, and I personally rarely ever attempt a grab unless I'm certain I can manage it. I'm just pointing these strategies out as viable methods for the match up, I'm not suggesting you need to rely on them. In either case, Meta Knight often needs to close the distance because FTilt is punishable, DTilt can only hit Marth while grounded, and Fair loses to Marths everything. Grabbing him is not entirely out of the question when that is kept in mind.

 

[Emblem Lord]

We had the match at 60/40, but we can't ignore that MK's almost always beat Marth's and lesser skilled MK's at that.

The ratio was changed to better reflect the tournament data.

I PERSONALLY see the match as 60/40.

 

[Ulevo]

We had the match at 60/40, but we can't ignore that MK's almost always beat Marth's and lesser skilled MK's at that.

The ratio was changed to better reflect the tournament data.

I PERSONALLY see the match as 60/40.

I can live with that answer. Still irritates me though. I'm too picky anyway.

 

[_Kadaj_]

Lol ^

 

[Darxmarth23]

im goin with the other guys.

60/40

^^^
thats the more realistic way to see this match up.

 

[PKNintendo]

Yes! Ness was chanegd from 75-25, to 70-30.

I can't help be sense a sort of proudness from the little boy.

 

[BanjoKazooiePro]

60/40 sounds good to me as well. I think an experienced MK player vs an experienced marth player would come out with MK the winner, but no matter what it will probably be somewhat close. Marth has a few pros in this matchup that do him well.

 

[_Kadaj_]

steel let's talk about the snake match-up.

What are your thought

(Boredom is killing me. I need to enhance myself somehow)

 

[Steel]

uh

i feel its 50:50 personally

 

[_Kadaj_]

Any particular reason why?

What do you do that makes the match 50:50?

 

[Ulevo]

uh

i feel its 50:50 personally

Well don't just spew ratios at us, tell us why you think this is.

Bwahaha.

 

[Steel]

i just throw him in the air i dunno

im fine with 45:55 though

 

[_Kadaj_]

Lol thanks a lot steel you've helped me so muxh jk

Lol ulevo

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I was playing a Snake in friendlies at a tourney yesterday and I juggled the **** out of him until like 160%, it was fun and easy. And he was pretty good too, but juggling him is as easy as throw up in the air to attack up IMO.

 

[_Kadaj_]

I need to try. Lol I've never threw a snake up not even once yet lol

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

You haven't? That's like how you beat Snake easily...

 

[_Kadaj_]

nope I'll give a try next time a play a snake player hope it helps open some new horizons. Who knows it could even work great in other match-ups as well

 

[K 2]

Is there a place where you have a condensed version of the match-up discussion? A summary on how to beat a character? Or do I have to read the whole discussion thread to find out how to beat someone?

 

[bludhoundz]

Using all the matchup ratios on the first page...

Marth's average matchup is 61.5 : 38.5

Not sure if that means anything, but I was bored and decided to see what his average matchup would be.

 

[_Kadaj_]

You have to read the whole discussion thread sadly...lol

 

[Steel]

I'm going to start putting summaries for each character soon.

 

[_Kadaj_]

Good idea

 

[Steel]

ill do it for roy

 

[_Kadaj_]

Lol let the roy's everywhere unite
*does u-smash*

 

[Steel]

i am on such a roll

 

[∫unk]

honestly.... falco shine b-air > any sword peeps

 

[Steel]

ugh you're right