~Marth's Match Ups~

[_Kadaj_]

Not when he's being chain throwed lol

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

snake vs marth is 50:50, me and azen **** snakes xD

 

[Steel]

thank you for that contribution neo. im convinced. XD

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

im only good at explaining things in person, come meet me in real life u a$$

 

[∫unk]

you're gonna get ***** in more than one way

 

[Admiral Pit]

I am outraged after seeing this 65-35 thing against Pit being Marth's Favor in this thread.

For one, I saw that the link under Pit lacked actual Pit mains discussing about this matchup, as well as that thread being spammed about other useless topics. I come here and I see a "65-35 vs Pit in Marth's Favor" thing, and this is a big deal to me. Posting on the "Sticky" should not only have more feedback, but a bit more understanding on how I see Pit vs Marth in an even 50-50.

Now first I will discuss the basic things here.
Marth gots more range than Pit, and some faster moves (Examples: F-air, D-tilt), but Pit still possesses a great projectile.

In my experience against Marths, a Good Marth's main attack is F-air, with its range and spacing capabilities, as well as it coming out fast and spammable. 2 of these being able to be performed by a SH is just good. Marth can even quickly use this quickly while camping on a ledge. A marth can choose to use this while getting on the ledge, or use it as he's moving back and Up-B back on the ledge quickly.
Apparently Marth's F-air outranges every one of Pit's moves, and Pit's range is within F-tilt and his own F-air.
I already know about Marth's SH double F-air to Fsmash (or Dancing Blade) thing, it is hard to punish.

Then Marth has his Spikes and Tippers, yes I know about them, but Pit really isnt that weak at all.
Just because Marth has quick long-ranged melee attacks does NOT make it an auto-advantage.


Here's what Pit has.

-Pit has his projectile, for one, is one of the best projectiles in the game, aimable, and it's the thing that makes Pit good at long range, and makes up for Pit's lack of melee range compared to most characters. It actually makes Pit really good, in general.

-Marth's recovery is somewhat limited, leaves him somewhat vulnerable to Pit's aimable arrows. So Pit can pick off Marth when trying to recover. If that wasnt enough, a timed Mirror Shield can ruin Marth's recovery, if timed right though it's not as effective as it is on some other chars with limited recoveries, like Ike, Bowser, DK, and Link.
A Pit can edgehog at will, using Up-B close to the ledge will allow him to grab the ledge much quickly. This Up-B near the ledge improves Pit and many ways, like ledgecamping.

-Pit is one of the best gimpers in the game, mostly because of arrows (to eat up jumps and such), F-airs and other pursuing attacks, and great edgeguarding capability. With Marth having a limited recovery, he is vulnerable to arrows in general. Marth's F-airs, however, may discourage some Pits from pursuing Marth with F-airs, B-airs, etc.

-Pit, on the other hand, has much more recovery options than Marth, and though Marth still gots that terrifiying range, Pit could choose to jump and shoot arrows at Marth as he is recovering. However, I'm still aware about Pit getting hit outta his Up-B and all, nothing much we can do there.

-Like Marth, Pit has some good throws. They may not be meant for killing (though U-throw could probably kill at about 200% and F-throw for 190% depending on stage and if not degraded) but they are great for spacing and many possible follow ups. A Pit can chaingrab, but not much (or sometimes at all depending on DI) because of the fear of Marth using his quick Up-B being used.

-Some Marths are predictable with F-airs and Dancing blades and all. If a Pit can time his Mirror Shield in certain cases, he can reverse Marth and capitalize.
For example: Many Marths, while hanging on the ledge, plan to recover by using an F-air. A Pit can reverse that with Mirror Shield and mess Marth up.
Another Example: Mirror Shield a Marth Dancing Blade and attack, simple as that unless the Marth stops the move quickly.

-Keep in mind that even though Marth has his quick long-ranged attacks, Pit has some quick moves of his own, but some of them are also good Shield-pressuring attacks, and even his arrows used in sequences (not just full-spam) can be pressuring, like normal shot then maybe a SH arrow shot.

Also another thing, though this probably wont happen often in this matchup, Pit has a D-tilt spike, where the hitbox for the spike is Pit himself, while the opponent is airborne.

Marth's large threats in the matchup are Pit's excellent gimping ability to stop Marth's recovering in his tracks with arrow after arrow, the arrows themselves when used really well, and the occasional Mirror Shield.

I demand this to be 50-50 Even matchup!
Marth may have the range, speed, tippers and spikes, and some edgeguarding, but Pit still has the projectile, the menacing Mirror Shield, a lot of recovery options, and supreme Edgeguarding/Gimping/Ledgecamping capabilities, as well as some pressuring tactics of his own, which even involve pressuring shields.

Here's also a little fact: Marth is slightly lighter than Pit.

So let me wrap this up

Marth's advantages:
-Range
-Speed
-Tippers, and a powerful spike
-Good edgeguarding ability
-His attack combinations are probably the closest "combos" you'll ever get, and are hard to punish

Pit's Advantages:
-Having one of the best projectiles in the game that is Aimable, has good spam rate, and good projectile speed
-Pit's Edgeguarding is very exceptional, as well as his Ledgecamping and Gimping capabilities. Pit's Edgeguarding works and gimping works really well against Marth's somewhat limited recovery
-Marth is vulnerable to edgehogging when timed right
-Pit's Mirror Shield can be fearful when timed right against certain situations
-Has Shield-Pressuring moves and pressuring strategies. Those are the Rapid-jab, Angel Ring, and N-air. When above Pit, U-air can be shield-pressuring.
-Pit has a lot of recovery options compared to Marth, and can even shoot arrows at him while recovering.

I still say 50-50 even matchup here! No more, No less!
And it took me like an hour to write this. I need to catch a breath. *catches breath*

 

[Steel]

Hmmm....


nope.

 

[Emblem Lord]

The reason Marth wins is because he controls the neutral state.

The state in which both characters have all their options available to them.

Marth has the range advantage and they attack at roughly the same speeds. Pit simply doesn't have non-risky answers to Marth's zoning.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Just as an FYI to peeps I have some good vids of my Marth coming. be excited

 

[Tulat]

Adm.p is right about everything but we pits cant 4get about arrow rain or pit's wingdashing and such

 

[Steel]

Ohhh yeahh.

Those gimmicky AT's are EXACTLY what turns this match around. I agree.

 

[Admiral Pit]

Umm no, no arrow rain, or arrow looping in general is useful in this matchup or any matchup. I choose to use that because I like that style.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Marth's advantages:
-Range
-Speed
-Tippers, and a powerful spike
-Good edgeguarding ability
-His attack combinations are probably the closest "combos" you'll ever get, and are hard to punish
-Aerial Mobility
-Great gimping potential
-Ftilt can stop aerial approaches
-Many fear inducing moves

Pit's Advantages:
-Having one of the best projectiles in the game that is Aimable, has good spam rate, and good projectile speed
-Pit's Edgeguarding is very exceptional, as well as his Ledgecamping and Gimping capabilities. Pit's Edgeguarding works and gimping works really well against Marth's somewhat limited recovery
-Marth is vulnerable to edgehogging when timed right Marth can stall with DB to throw off the timing and then stagespike sometimes
-Pit's Mirror Shield can be fearful when timed right against certain situations
-Has Shield-Pressuring moves and pressuring strategies. Those are the Rapid-jab, Angel Ring , and N-air. Marth has his up-B out of shield to punish anything Pit throws at him except an arrow When above Pit, U-air can be shield-pressuring.
-Pit has a lot of recovery options compared to Marth, and can even shoot arrows at him while recovering.Marth can CP some stages like Siege and Yoshi's Island to negate Pit going under the stage to recover and can gimp him.


And it took me like an hour to write this. I need to catch a breath. *catches breath* You are a slow typer

My comments are in bold, and I disagree with your reasoning, many of your points are not valid in this argument.

 

[Admiral Pit]

I never was good with much reasoning, might as well call the other Pits and Sagemoon here to clarify this.

However, I will say that Norfair is one of the best stages for Pit, and you cant tell me Im wrong on that!

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Then Marth will ban it and CP Siege.

 

[Tulat]

i don't care what you think but it's reallt 50 - 50 and you all know it

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

No, I presented my argument above as to why it is not 50-50, and unless you can combat that with reasoning then your point is invalid. Don't speak ratios unless you can back them up.

 

[Rogue Pit]

Arrow Rain is Wingdash doesn't make much difference for Pit's case. I think the match-up is in marth's favor, but i doubt that the marth boards adding all the components.

Seeing as Marth has a predictable recovery, Pit can easily gimp it. Also since marth has to be so close to the stage Pit can shoot arrows at an offstage marth and his chances of coming back are significantly reduced.

Also with Pit's D-throw and Uthrow which *Pits* marth directly above him, marth is extremely disadvantaged when his Opponent is below him. Along with the throws, one of Pit's best moves the U-tilt, which has 3 hitboxes, deals 16 damage, and comes out as fast as his jabs places Marth right above him.

Also Pit's ability to ledge camp can stop most of marth's kill ways. Also if he tries to gimp, and Pit can go under the stage, Marth can be mirror-shield gimped or just attacked.

But on a neutral stage like EL said, Pit is at a very bad position if Marth zones correctly, too far for Pit to reach him, but too close for Pit to try to use arrows. This along can tip the match-up in Marth's favor.

Along with other things like his tipper to kill early if spaced, moves that kill at 100% without being tipped, and his UpB out of shield. I'd say that Marth has the advantage. But 35:65 implies much different than what i think. It wouldn't be a slaughterfest, because Pit can win if he camps correctly. I'd say it's a 45-55 or 40-60 at the most in Marth's favor.

I hope you take these things into account being as though i know a number of Marth players here.

 

[DemonicTrilogy]

Marth's advantages:
-Range
-Speed
-Tippers, and a powerful spike
-Good edgeguarding ability
-His attack combinations are probably the closest "combos" you'll ever get, and are hard to punish
-Aerial Mobility- It's not that good vertically
-Great gimping potential- This only applies if he is horizontal to the opponent. Up air is low priority and Down air is laggy and hard to land.
-Ftilt can stop aerial approaches- What about approaches from above and Wing lunging?
-Many fear inducing moves- What does this have to do with anything???

Pit's Advantages:
-Having one of the best projectiles in the game that is Aimable, has good spam rate, and good projectile speed
-Pit's Edgeguarding is very exceptional, as well as his Ledgecamping and Gimping capabilities. Pit's Edgeguarding works and gimping works really well against Marth's somewhat limited recovery
-Marth is vulnerable to edgehogging when timed right Marth can stall with DB to throw off the timing and then stagespike sometimes- Sometimes, more like as rare as Game and Watch hitting a Nine. Also, wall teching says hello. Dancing Blade’s stall doesn’t do much stalling so Pit would still be able to hit you.
-Pit's Mirror Shield can be fearful when timed right against certain situations
-Has Shield-Pressuring moves and pressuring strategies. Those are the Rapid-jab, Angel Ring , and N-air. Marth has his up-B out of shield to punish anything Pit throws at him except an arrow- If the nair reaches across the shield, the Marth, who will have a slight delay anticipating what is happening, might Up-B but Up-B only reaches in front of you and barely sweeps behind. Also, a rising full hopped down air will leave Pit in a pretty safe position if we continue DIing across you. When above Pit, U-air can be shield-pressuring.
-Pit has a lot of recovery options compared to Marth, and can even shoot arrows at him while recovering.Marth can CP some stages like Siege and Yoshi's Island to negate Pit going under the stage to recover and can gimp him.- Like what other people from the Marth Boards are saying. If you can CP norfair, we can CP Seige. Also, Yoshi’s island isn’t that bad for Pit with the large platform above it. Also, if we were to WoI from the very edge of the blast zone, Marth wouldn’t be able to jump that far without SD himself. Also, your recovery back to the stage is limited if we are arrowing you all the way down.


And it took me like an hour to write this. I need to catch a breath. *catches breath* You are a slow typer- Don’t be so mean. He is only trying to show that Pit is better than you may think

Thoughts against the counter toward's Admirals countered counter are underlined

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Seeing as Marth has a predictable recovery, Pit can easily gimp it. Also since Marth has to be so close to the stage Pit can shoot arrows at an offstage Marth and his chances of coming back are significantly reduced.

I stated above that Marth can DB stall and then Up-B to stagespike potential edgehoggers and throw off edgehog timing. I agree with 65:35, Pit cannot keep up with Marth's relentless zoning ability and his quick shield pressuring and ability to punish opponents attempting to pressure his shield with Up-B OOS.

And ok demonic trilogy here we go:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral Bowser View Post
Marth's advantages:
-Range
-Speed
-Tippers, and a powerful spike
-Good edgeguarding ability
-His attack combinations are probably the closest "combos" you'll ever get, and are hard to punish
-Aerial Mobility- It's not that good vertically And what doe sthat have to do with anything?
-Great gimping potential- This only applies if he is horizontal to the opponent. Up air is low priority Aerial moves don't have priority, and Marth's Uair is one of his best upwards killersand Down air is laggy and hard to land. Good Marth's don't use Dair.
-Ftilt can stop aerial approaches- What about approaches from above? Marth's Utilt sweeps above the entire area above him
-Many fear inducing moves- What does this have to do with anything??? More than you think.

Pit's Advantages:
-Having one of the best projectiles in the game that is Aimable, has good spam rate, and good projectile speed
-Pit's Edgeguarding is very exceptional, as well as his Ledgecamping and Gimping capabilities. Pit's Edgeguarding works and gimping works really well against Marth's somewhat limited recovery
-Marth is vulnerable to edgehogging when timed right Marth can stall with DB to throw off the timing and then stagespike sometimes- Sometimes, more like as rare as Game and Watch hitting a Nine. No, not really, stalling with DB works a lot. Also, wall teching says hello. Dancing Blade’s stall doesn’t do much stalling so Pit would still be able to hit you.
-Pit's Mirror Shield can be fearful when timed right against certain situations
-Has Shield-Pressuring moves and pressuring strategies. Those are the Rapid-jab, Angel Ring , and N-air. Marth has his up-B out of shield to punish anything Pit throws at him except an arrow- If the nair reaches across the shield, the Marth, who will have a slight delay anticipating what is happening, might Up-B but Up-B only reaches in front of you and barely sweeps behind. Marth can use a reverse Up-B out of shield, it doesn't matter which way he's facing. When above Pit, U-air can be shield-pressuring.
-Pit has a lot of recovery options compared to Marth, and can even shoot arrows at him while recovering.Marth can CP some stages like Siege and Yoshi's Island to negate Pit going under the stage to recover and can gimp him.- Like what other people from the Marth Boards are saying. If you can CP norfair, we can CP Seige.Why'd Pit want to CP Siege? That is a bad stage for him. Also, Yoshi’s island isn’t that bad for Pit with the large platform above it. Also, if we were to WoI from the very edge of the blast zone, Marth wouldn’t be able to jump that far without SD himself. Also, your recovery back to the stage is limited if we are arrowing you all the way down.



And it took me like an hour to write this. I need to catch a breath. *catches breath* You are a slow typer- Don’t be so mean. He is only trying to show that Pit is better than you may think I never doubted that Pit is good, just I'm saying that Marth is better in this macthup.

Thoughts against the counter toward's Admirals countered counter are underlined

 

[_Kadaj_]

This match isn't even 60:40 at best man. I know this match-up pretty well

 

[AndrewCarlson]

I think it's 60:40 Marth. I can see why 65:35 is a bit disconcerting for Pit mains considering that a campy Pit can give Marth a decent fight. Would 60:40 seem more acceptable as a compromise?

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

This match isn't even 60:40 at best man. I know this match-up pretty well

Are you talking to me? My argument was to prove that it was 65:35.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I would call it 60/40 since Pit can control the match from long distance. But since most of the fight will be up close, Marth gets the nod.

 

[Zankoku]

Marth wins because the Servant Saber is superior to the Servant Archer in hand-to-hand combat.

 

[AndrewCarlson]

I would call it 60/40 since Pit can control the match from long distance. But since most of the fight will be up close, Marth gets the nod.

This is why I respect you. You don't hesitate to adjust the match-up to please both sides given sufficient evidence. I feel the Pit mains have provided decent evidence to shift the match-up from being too disadvantageous.

 

[Steel]

I don't think they said anything new, they just put more emphasis on edge guarding, which doesn't mean as much as the on-stage game.

I'll change it to 60 40 though if everyone agrees to it.

 

[_Kadaj_]

I was talking to the pit mainers solid

 

[DemonicTrilogy]

I stated above that Marth can DB stall and then Up-B to stagespike potential edgehoggers and throw off edgehog timing. I agree with 65:35, Pit cannot keep up with Marth's relentless zoning ability and his quick shield pressuring and ability to punish opponents attempting to pressure his shield with Up-B OOS. Wing Lunging and Wing Dashing provide the spacing needed for Pit to prevent this Zoning and shield pressuring.

And ok demonic trilogy here we go:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral Bowser View Post
Marth's advantages:
-Range
-Speed
-Tippers, and a powerful spike
-Good edgeguarding ability
-His attack combinations are probably the closest "combos" you'll ever get, and are hard to punish
-Aerial Mobility- It's not that good vertically And what doe sthat have to do with anything?Pit can use this against him when edgehogging and guarding, etc.
-Great gimping potential- This only applies if he is horizontal to the opponent. Up air is low priority Aerial moves don't have priority, and Marth's Uair is one of his best upwards killers Aerials do have priority based on their range of hitbox. Example, Lucas's Nair has low priority. Up air doesn't have much range compared to Pit's down airand Down air is laggy and hard to land. Good Marth's don't use Dair.
-Ftilt can stop aerial approaches- What about approaches from above? Marth's Utilt sweeps above the entire area above himBut you were talking about F-tilt and rising attacks avoid this problem
-Many fear inducing moves- What does this have to do with anything??? More than you think.Not really

Pit's Advantages:
-Having one of the best projectiles in the game that is Aimable, has good spam rate, and good projectile speed
-Pit's Edgeguarding is very exceptional, as well as his Ledgecamping and Gimping capabilities. Pit's Edgeguarding works and gimping works really well against Marth's somewhat limited recovery
-Marth is vulnerable to edgehogging when timed right Marth can stall with DB to throw off the timing and then stagespike sometimes- Sometimes, more like as rare as Game and Watch hitting a Nine. No, not really, stalling with DB works a lot.What do you mean? Some Pit's can anticipate this stalling and simply adapt it into their gameplay when edge guarding Also, wall teching says hello. Dancing Blade’s stall doesn’t do much stalling so Pit would still be able to hit you.
-Pit's Mirror Shield can be fearful when timed right against certain situations
-Has Shield-Pressuring moves and pressuring strategies. Those are the Rapid-jab, Angel Ring , and N-air. Marth has his up-B out of shield to punish anything Pit throws at him except an arrow- If the nair reaches across the shield, the Marth, who will have a slight delay anticipating what is happening, might Up-B but Up-B only reaches in front of you and barely sweeps behind. Marth can use a reverse Up-B out of shield, it doesn't matter which way he's facing. Most Marths will anticipate the Nair not reaching across and go for the Up-B being in front.When above Pit, U-air can be shield-pressuring.
-Pit has a lot of recovery options compared to Marth, and can even shoot arrows at him while recovering.Marth can CP some stages like Siege and Yoshi's Island to negate Pit going under the stage to recover and can gimp him.- Like what other people from the Marth Boards are saying. If you can CP norfair, we can CP Seige.Why'd Pit want to CP Siege? That is a bad stage for him.I meant ban. Sorry for that typo, I'll fix it Also, Yoshi’s island isn’t that bad for Pit with the large platform above it. Also, if we were to WoI from the very edge of the blast zone, Marth wouldn’t be able to jump that far without SD himself. Also, your recovery back to the stage is limited if we are arrowing you all the way down.



And it took me like an hour to write this. I need to catch a breath. *catches breath* You are a slow typer- Don’t be so mean. He is only trying to show that Pit is better than you may think I never doubted that Pit is good, just I'm saying that Marth is better in this macthup. Then you should understand why we are being so uncomfortable with this 35:65 Pit to Marth Match up

Thoughts against the counter toward's Admirals countered counter are underlined

My counter counter counter counter counter. >_<

 

[AndrewCarlson]

I'll change it to 60 40 though if everyone agrees to it.

Well, Emblem Lord agrees with it and so do I. It would also help to end the "outrage" from the Pit mains somewhat.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Rofl. Pit mains evidence was trash Andrew.

I gave my opinion based on what I already knew.

They had to grasp at straws anyway because Marth controls the fight for the most part.

Gimmicky AT's is not an argument.

It's a cry for help. lmao.

 

[AndrewCarlson]

Rofl. Pit mains evidence was trash Andrew.

I gave my opinion based on what I already knew.

They had to grasp at straws anyway because Marth controls the fight for the most part.

Gimmicky AT's is not an argument.

It's a cry for help. lmao.

It wasn't great. But you have to admire their effort, no?

 

[Admiral Pit]

I never doubted that Pit is good, just I'm saying that Marth is better in this matchup.

At least he made it sound a bit better than what the others had put it, before I went all berserk since the 65-35 thing was way off course.
60-40 Marth, that's the last option I will take. *Resists attacking Andrew for his laugh*
Im to hope that Sagemoon makes his opinion heard as a last resort.

 

[AndrewCarlson]

I wasn't laughing at you, Admiral. It's just that the Marth boards are possibly the most analytical of all, and it's usually very difficult to convince people otherwise once they've set something in stone. I like Pit as a character, I really do. But you have to understand that pushing for 50:50 was pushing it just a bit for some people here. Match-ups do change though. Meta Knight used to be considered as 50:50 many months ago. Now it's considered to be 35:65 disadvantage for Marth.

 

[darkspatan117]

Rofl. Pit mains evidence was trash Andrew.

I gave my opinion based on what I already knew.

They had to grasp at straws anyway because Marth controls the fight for the most part.

Gimmicky AT's is not an argument.

It's a cry for help. lmao.

EL You should look at Fox main they still think they' re even with Snake

 

[fox219]

Good stuff, dude. You're a really good Marth player Steel.

I have a question, though: Why is Marth vs DDD considered even? I consider DDD and MetaKnight to be Marth's only bad match ups in this game. Marth can have some trouble against other characters that can consistantly challange his range with their own, and DDD can do just that. Plus, he's hard to approach. Is there something about this match up I'm not getting?

Dedede is as easy as drinking water. I beat him bad. I pwn lvl 9 dededes

 

[Rogue Pit]

I understand and as i stated above, Pit doesn't stand a chance in a Hand to Hand combat against a marth.

Realizing this disadvantage, a good Pit player will not fight a marth melee style, personally if it came down to it, i would ledge camp marth, shooting arrows, Wing ledge stall and Uairing if necessary. If the match up is in marth's favor by 65:35 tell me what options a marth player could have in this situation. PLEASE

Edit: Nevermind, had a debate with EL on Aim. I retract this statement. 60/40 I'd say is an accurate depiction. Pit's let go.

 

[AndrewCarlson]

Dedede is as easy as drinking water. I beat him bad. I pwn lvl 9 dededes

You can't be serious? My sarcasm detector isn't working today, but you do know that Level 9 CPUs mean nothing. Any half decent player probably presents a much greater challenge. For one, when would you ever see a CPU attempt to chain grab?

 

[Semmick]

Dedede is as easy as drinking water. I beat him bad. I pwn lvl 9 dededes

Does that D3 chaingrab?

 

[∫unk]

Just as an FYI to peeps I have some good vids of my Marth coming. be excited

me too steel said he's going to upload them tomorrow