Lord Chair
Smash Master
Always take into account what specifically slower OoS options allow you to do. This is where frame data comes in handy.
I still don't see fair > DS on shield enough.
I still don't see fair > DS on shield enough.
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Marth Metagame Thread
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phi1ny3
Not the Mama
If I may make an observation,
characters who excel at recovering from underneath the stage when they initiate their recovery move (DK and Bowser in particular) seem to be the hardest to edgeguard, all I see option-wise is people attempting to spike with dair, is there a better way of getting our better aerials in (like bair) without putting Marth in an equally bad position? I know this sounds obvious, but how I look at it, fair and bair don't seem to reach , and DB only works if they don't initiate DB since it doesn't have enough hitstun/knockback to prevent upB from just going through it. The only thing I see viable is a FF bair, and that looks pretty icky
I ask this because I'm probably going to do Marth v. DK, kinda need help w/ the concepts.
Being on the edge against DK looks nasty, every option can get outspaced and knocked, or put you in a really weak position.
characters who excel at recovering from underneath the stage when they initiate their recovery move (DK and Bowser in particular) seem to be the hardest to edgeguard, all I see option-wise is people attempting to spike with dair, is there a better way of getting our better aerials in (like bair) without putting Marth in an equally bad position? I know this sounds obvious, but how I look at it, fair and bair don't seem to reach , and DB only works if they don't initiate DB since it doesn't have enough hitstun/knockback to prevent upB from just going through it. The only thing I see viable is a FF bair, and that looks pretty icky
I ask this because I'm probably going to do Marth v. DK, kinda need help w/ the concepts.
Being on the edge against DK looks nasty, every option can get outspaced and knocked, or put you in a really weak position.
Itakio
Smash Journeyman
If you're clawing, something I've been doing recently is edgehogging people, then as they go above you with their up B, drop from the ledge (you should have invinvibility) and then uair them. If they've used their double jump, they'll be in a really bad position, and they'll still have limited time to DI to or from the stage as they'll probably be in histun by the time you recover (the uair will autocancel on the ground if you did it right). Since they have limited DI and no double jump, there's a pretty good chance you'll get them with a follow up.If I may make an observation,
characters who excel at recovering from underneath the stage when they initiate their recovery move (DK and Bowser in particular) seem to be the hardest to edgeguard, all I see option-wise is people attempting to spike with dair, is there a better way of getting our better aerials in (like bair) without putting Marth in an equally bad position? I know this sounds obvious, but how I look at it, fair and bair don't seem to reach , and DB only works if they don't initiate DB since it doesn't have enough hitstun/knockback to prevent upB from just going through it. The only thing I see viable is a FF bair, and that looks pretty icky
I ask this because I'm probably going to do Marth v. DK, kinda need help w/ the concepts.
Being on the edge against DK looks nasty, every option can get outspaced and knocked, or put you in a really weak position.
About ff fair -> grab on olimar, don't forget that he can usmash out of shield in 8 frames as opposed to grabbing, so that's not going to force him into a defensive option 100% of the time.
I edgeguard dk all day.
Don't have time to fully explain this at the moment but,
you have instant ledge grab to ensure you have invincibility when needed (poor slow start up on dk's up b)
when you're bairing DK (especially DK) once he loses his jump (only have to guess right just the once), bairs will harrass him forever.
Here's where things get funny, for DK to -avoid- Marth's back air edge guarding, he has to come closer to the ledge first (resulting in him being below it), and this sets himself up for a dair spike.
So here's how it goes:
1. Bair forever
2. Dair when bair wouldn't hit.
It works. against dk at least. Bowser's up b is a lot faster
Don't have time to fully explain this at the moment but,
you have instant ledge grab to ensure you have invincibility when needed (poor slow start up on dk's up b)
when you're bairing DK (especially DK) once he loses his jump (only have to guess right just the once), bairs will harrass him forever.
Here's where things get funny, for DK to -avoid- Marth's back air edge guarding, he has to come closer to the ledge first (resulting in him being below it), and this sets himself up for a dair spike.
So here's how it goes:
1. Bair forever
2. Dair when bair wouldn't hit.
It works. against dk at least. Bowser's up b is a lot faster
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
that's what I've noticed, but at the same time, I've seen a lot less spiking than what is being said "on paper" (wow what an '08 phrase lol).
I guess keeping leverage by staying on that ledge as opposed to being onstage is best lol. I thought that because there was a lack of it in some of the videos I saw, it was a bad idea lol.
I guess the Marth didn't think about that as an option.
I guess keeping leverage by staying on that ledge as opposed to being onstage is best lol. I thought that because there was a lack of it in some of the videos I saw, it was a bad idea lol.
I guess the Marth didn't think about that as an option.
That's how I play against DKs at the ledge.
Blacknight99923
Smash Champion
that's barely anytime at all your probably safe with that dair then
Blacknight99923
Smash Champion
I thought if you hit it on teh top it flinches though
Marth hitting things that are invincible still produce hit lag.
Marth's tipper dair for example would have quite a few frames of hit lag.
When a moves in hit lag, the hitbox is still active.
As long as DK can't actually "hit you" to stop you, or get to the ledge/past you, tipper dair should smack him upon exiting invincibility.
Marth's tipper dair for example would have quite a few frames of hit lag.
When a moves in hit lag, the hitbox is still active.
As long as DK can't actually "hit you" to stop you, or get to the ledge/past you, tipper dair should smack him upon exiting invincibility.
Blacknight99923
Smash Champion
I know the hit box stays out but does the invincibility stay as well? I would assume not but I would rather not risk something I thought was guaranteed only for it to be a whiff
Donkey Kong's upB has super armor frames 10-16 and hits on frames 19-23, 24-28, 29-33, 34-38, 39-42, 43-46, 47-50, 51-54, 55-56 and ends on frame 84
That's grounded only.
Aerial upB is:
Invincibility on frames 4-6 and hits on frames 4-6, 12-19, 20-27, 28-35, 36-43, 44-51, 52-59, 60-67. It ends on frame 84 and has 40 frames of landing lag unless you cancel the landing by landing from a certain height. It can grab the ledge on frame 8.
I don't know if/what the relation between shield hitlag and hitlag is, but, tipper dair's shieldhitlag is 11 frames I think.
So, basically, based on what Shaya said, if you tipper dair DK at any point in his upB, unless he's raising and hits you during your hitlag while he's invincible, you *should* always spike him.
That's grounded only.
Aerial upB is:
Invincibility on frames 4-6 and hits on frames 4-6, 12-19, 20-27, 28-35, 36-43, 44-51, 52-59, 60-67. It ends on frame 84 and has 40 frames of landing lag unless you cancel the landing by landing from a certain height. It can grab the ledge on frame 8.
I don't know if/what the relation between shield hitlag and hitlag is, but, tipper dair's shieldhitlag is 11 frames I think.
So, basically, based on what Shaya said, if you tipper dair DK at any point in his upB, unless he's raising and hits you during your hitlag while he's invincible, you *should* always spike him.
Blacknight99923
Smash Champion
thank you
I didn't know if invincibility was something that was extended as well but thanks for clearing that up
I didn't know if invincibility was something that was extended as well but thanks for clearing that up
Anyway, I wanted to start up discussion of something that I've been dropping hints about for a while.
In my opinion Marth has a near guaranteed HUMAN "mix up" that has nearly 50/50 gambling results. Marth may one of the only few characters in the game who can abuse this, having one of the "safest on shield" forward facing aerial in the game (Peach is good too, but her fair start up means she can't really abuse this).
"Human mix up" - A mix up which abuses frame data when considering human reaction speed. For the sake of example, I am going to use Ally, who probably has the fastest reaction speed you'll generally find in the competitive scene (his is about 10-11 frames).
Let's take Marth's fair. It beats things up that don't shield. The general consensus in handling it is to shield, often using "dash to shield" tactics to get a shield grab.
Assuming Marth "perfectly" lands a forward air on shield (in the situation where disadvantage would be -4):
Marth hits their shield. Frame 0.
Marth experiences 5 frames of hit lag. Frame 5.
Marth lands on the ground "frame 6" and starts landing lag.
Opponent is "neutral" on frame 10. In other words, assuming fastest expected reaction speed, the opponent has recognised you've faired their shield.
Frame 14 Marth's landing lag ends.
Frame 16 opponent's grab comes out.
Sweet, I hope we understand.
Now at the same point at which you would do a "perfect" ff fair, instead you decide to fast fall into a grab.
Assume you land on the ground frame 1. You have two frames of landing lag.
Your grab starts on frame 3, and it the grab hitbox will come out on frame 8.
This is FASTER than human reaction speed, and to avoid falling for this trap they had to have been expecting it (potentially spot dodging) or picking the alternate options (attack [which most characters can't reliably do due to marth's fair range and start up + marth's aerial mobility], grab [Marth has one of the largest non-tether grab ranges in the game, against most characters, when we consider Marth's aerial mobility and reasonably precise spacing, he has more leeway here) which against most characters Marth has better tools for.
The marth fair/grab mix up combo is pretty "standard" for Marth in general. And it is very "easy" to use this type of mix up to catch people in other situations.
Examples being an opponent above you and wanting to ff and/or air dodge past your aerial; when we consider also that Marth's fast fall speed is superior to 2/3rds of the cast, you can see marth outdoing opponent's here as well.
With the general "power" of marth's safety behind his ff fair, assuming great spacing you are most likely safe all the time, but adding this into your game and thought process increases your offensive options in a very common situation (fair on shield), which stacked with ff jab to jab (which beats out all shield drop moves) makes even allowing yourself to be in the potential incoming of a forward air extremely dangerous.
One must be aware though that characters with better grab range (Dedede) can make this mix up less favourable (in terms of just outright outspacing their grab as an added safety measure to this), but it still is a landing option that may save you a few times.
Either way, a lot of my game as of late has been thinking about marth's frame data in terms of human reaction speed and what not.
I've re-introduced down tilt into my game because of this, as it is very good at also setting up a reaction speed trap (your opponent has 9 frames advantage on you). Most people want you to dtilt again so you go even closer to potentially shield grab, which is a risky venture (considering what we can do in 10 or so frames of their reaction speed instead of dtilting again for 7). Otherwise, most characters won't be able to touch you without shield dropping; and with shield knockback taken into consideration (so most characters must move forward) they are reducing that 2 frames to potentially even being in marths "favour", where he has two great 4 frame moves that wreck people. Even though MK can ftilt/dtilt you after a dtilt (if he isn't pushed out of range) before you can do anything else other than shield, with the use of both the analogue stick + cstick to dtilt (if you hold down on analogue stick and do a cstick down [with smashes] it will down tilt), gives you a lot of freedom in your left hand to auto buffer SDI - ftilt 2nd/3rd hits can completely whiff you, and marth's fsmash sets up perfectly after ftilt SDIs into a tipper (), and unless dtilt trips you, it's mostly a wasted move choice (when ftilt is better).
In my opinion Marth has a near guaranteed HUMAN "mix up" that has nearly 50/50 gambling results. Marth may one of the only few characters in the game who can abuse this, having one of the "safest on shield" forward facing aerial in the game (Peach is good too, but her fair start up means she can't really abuse this).
"Human mix up" - A mix up which abuses frame data when considering human reaction speed. For the sake of example, I am going to use Ally, who probably has the fastest reaction speed you'll generally find in the competitive scene (his is about 10-11 frames).
Let's take Marth's fair. It beats things up that don't shield. The general consensus in handling it is to shield, often using "dash to shield" tactics to get a shield grab.
Assuming Marth "perfectly" lands a forward air on shield (in the situation where disadvantage would be -4):
Marth hits their shield. Frame 0.
Marth experiences 5 frames of hit lag. Frame 5.
Marth lands on the ground "frame 6" and starts landing lag.
Opponent is "neutral" on frame 10. In other words, assuming fastest expected reaction speed, the opponent has recognised you've faired their shield.
Frame 14 Marth's landing lag ends.
Frame 16 opponent's grab comes out.
Sweet, I hope we understand.
Now at the same point at which you would do a "perfect" ff fair, instead you decide to fast fall into a grab.
Assume you land on the ground frame 1. You have two frames of landing lag.
Your grab starts on frame 3, and it the grab hitbox will come out on frame 8.
This is FASTER than human reaction speed, and to avoid falling for this trap they had to have been expecting it (potentially spot dodging) or picking the alternate options (attack [which most characters can't reliably do due to marth's fair range and start up + marth's aerial mobility], grab [Marth has one of the largest non-tether grab ranges in the game, against most characters, when we consider Marth's aerial mobility and reasonably precise spacing, he has more leeway here) which against most characters Marth has better tools for.
The marth fair/grab mix up combo is pretty "standard" for Marth in general. And it is very "easy" to use this type of mix up to catch people in other situations.
Examples being an opponent above you and wanting to ff and/or air dodge past your aerial; when we consider also that Marth's fast fall speed is superior to 2/3rds of the cast, you can see marth outdoing opponent's here as well.
With the general "power" of marth's safety behind his ff fair, assuming great spacing you are most likely safe all the time, but adding this into your game and thought process increases your offensive options in a very common situation (fair on shield), which stacked with ff jab to jab (which beats out all shield drop moves) makes even allowing yourself to be in the potential incoming of a forward air extremely dangerous.
One must be aware though that characters with better grab range (Dedede) can make this mix up less favourable (in terms of just outright outspacing their grab as an added safety measure to this), but it still is a landing option that may save you a few times.
Either way, a lot of my game as of late has been thinking about marth's frame data in terms of human reaction speed and what not.
I've re-introduced down tilt into my game because of this, as it is very good at also setting up a reaction speed trap (your opponent has 9 frames advantage on you). Most people want you to dtilt again so you go even closer to potentially shield grab, which is a risky venture (considering what we can do in 10 or so frames of their reaction speed instead of dtilting again for 7). Otherwise, most characters won't be able to touch you without shield dropping; and with shield knockback taken into consideration (so most characters must move forward) they are reducing that 2 frames to potentially even being in marths "favour", where he has two great 4 frame moves that wreck people. Even though MK can ftilt/dtilt you after a dtilt (if he isn't pushed out of range) before you can do anything else other than shield, with the use of both the analogue stick + cstick to dtilt (if you hold down on analogue stick and do a cstick down [with smashes] it will down tilt), gives you a lot of freedom in your left hand to auto buffer SDI - ftilt 2nd/3rd hits can completely whiff you, and marth's fsmash sets up perfectly after ftilt SDIs into a tipper (
), and unless dtilt trips you, it's mostly a wasted move choice (when ftilt is better).
Raziek
Charging Limit All Day
So, the tl;dr version is:
FF Fair to grab is pretty sexy, abuse reaction speed frame traps more?
I like it.
FF Fair to grab is pretty sexy, abuse reaction speed frame traps more?
I like it.
no nononononon.
FF fair to grab is definitely very slow and easily reacted to.
FF to grab OR ff fair to beat either shield or spot dodge/being out of shield.
FF fair to grab is definitely very slow and easily reacted to.
FF to grab OR ff fair to beat either shield or spot dodge/being out of shield.
Freezewish
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2008
- Messages
- 827
I love you Shaya....
Raziek
Charging Limit All Day
Ah, gotcha. Your post was a bit wordy, I must have mis-read something somewhere.
Ah, yeah, I missed this sentence.
Shaya said:
Remzi
formerly VaBengal
how the **** do you approach snake, detailed answer from someone good at the matchup please!
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Yo, gonna start some match-up rediscussions up soon, what do you guys feel like doing first?
I wanted to do snake, but I'm down for MK, DK, ROB, or DDD also. Any other recommendations?
I wanted to do snake, but I'm down for MK, DK, ROB, or DDD also. Any other recommendations?
Albert.
Smash Master
makoforce
Smash Ace
can someone pleeeeez tell me wat a frame trap is
Blacknight99923
Smash Champion
why not do snake. I am sure bengalz would appreciate it
anyway we need need to really keep both this thread and the match up thread active.
@bengalz
full hop fair isn't something that snake can actually beat you will probably be doing a lot of it.
I personally find that your grab game here is like 5x how good it normally is. snake has 0 options to safely stop your juggling KEEP THE PRESSURE UP.
When gimping his cipher easy damage> easy kill unless they are being a complete idiot its generally better to NOT try to dair and rely on safer approuches.
Do NOT let him set up his mines nades and C4 when you die on your stock I find when I play my doubles partner it really makes a difference.
its better to NOT think of his nades in terms of trying to hit you, they control your movement, my doubles partner tried to explain its more of an illusion than anything else along with their mine (and possibly C4 but it has different properties than the other 2) when he throws his nades keep tract of how long the nade has been out, I personally find the safest time to hit snake is when he pulls 2 nades and one blows up and he immediately pulls another. this is partially why Dtilt is great here because it won't blow up the nade and it either forces snake to shield and stop his nade pulls ect and getting you dtilt frame traps or poking his shield.
KEEP THE PRESSURE UP whatever you do DO NOT EVER LET HIM RESET TO A NEUTRAL SITUATION, that the only time he will win snake only needs to hit you 8-10 times (varing on ftilt ect) to get you in kill range with his plethora of options to do so. You have to get him HIGH percents if you ever want to kill him, for some reason due to the nature of this match up I find your uair and utilt along with gimps become your best kill moves here.
On gimping snake, provided you can get back to the stage almost anything I find goes, don't be an idiot but snake will be (to quote my doubles partner) TO CONCERNED ABOUT GETTING BACK HIMSELF to try punishing some of your moves, don't do something that's obviously going to let him punish you but for the most part keep in mind that your safe for the most part. Personally when its in range I like using the DS cipher method to gimp him (similar to how MK shuttle loops snake out of cipher) however its riskier than when MK uses it. However all of your aerials will work to so don't forget about them. footstooling his bomb jumping is always an options but don't go to far to kill yourself.
my last bit of advice is to NEVER lose the momentum and to keep up the pressure
I think this is fairly accurate for the most part and this is my personal experience on the match up
Albert.
Smash Master
All I know is that the word "plethora" should be banned from the English language.
Blacknight99923
Smash Champion
snake can kill marth realistically with every move except U throw and jab (or if you want to be technical Dthrow) while other moves will probably not hit they can kill
Blacknight99923
Smash Champion
if you get hit with jab you don't know the match up, since you can up B or PS it.
his dtilt doesn't actually have BAD killing power either tbh though
Blacknight99923
Smash Champion
no they aren't they CAN kill you with them however is what I am trying to say.
although to be honest I agree with rei-gun. Most of his moves won't kill you because they aren't practical to kill you with. It WAS an over generalization to say those moves would kill you and I admit I shouldn't have spoken in a way that made it sound like they WOULD kill you , however snake has a good number of moves that have enough knockback TO kill you.
snake will probably be kill with utilt uair bair C4 or other practical kill moves. most likely utilt
Albert.
Smash Master
P-3 what are you talking about lol Dtilt is mad underused. It'll kill pretty early if they use it cause Utilt is stale
it also has comparable range to his other broken tilts lol
it also has comparable range to his other broken tilts lol
Blacknight99923
Smash Champion
I believe I read on snake boards that it kills at 130 ish
Blacknight99923
Smash Champion
I would have to agree that your more than likely going to die sooner or from other things yes
Reizilla
The Old Lapras and the Sea
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2008
- Messages
- 13,676
You talk like Snake's are mindless robots that can't make reads. Those are clearly the most obvious, but you should still be wary of the other things, so they don't catch you off guard, etc. No one's saying they're gonna happen every match.